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Hey, it's Lulu. Before we get into the show, I want to tell you about something new happening here at The Interview.
If you listen to our conversations every week, you might not know that we also record many of them as video podcasts.
And now we've got our very own YouTube channel where you can watch me and David have these conversations with our guests.
It's a fun different way to get to know the people we have on our show, including this week's guest, Miley Cyrus.
To watch, go to youtube .com slash at the interview podcast, and don't forget to subscribe while you're there.
Okay, here's the show.
From the New York Times, this is The Interview.
I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro.
Miley Cyrus has spent almost her entire life in the limelight.
When she was only 13, she debuted as Disney Channel's Hannah Montana.
She played a regular girl by day who had a secret life as a pop star by night.
The role made her into a household name with a string of hits.
Like this one, Party in the USA.
After the show ended, she became a fully -fledged pop star in her own right she gave us the breakup anthem of the decade with her song wrecking ball now in her 30s her mega hit flowers spent weeks on top of the charts and won her her first Grammy She just released her ninth album, Something Beautiful.
It's ambitious and personal and it's also her first visual album.
The lead single is End of the World.
Miley and I spoke in person in New York when she was in town for the Met Gala and we went to some unexpected places, talking about her close relationships with her mom Tish and her godmother Dolly Parton, a revelation she had while undergoing trauma therapy and how she's learned to protect herself in a world that is still fascinated by everything she does.
Here's my conversation with Miley Cyrus.
How was the Met Gala?
Met Gala? Met Galas.
You know, where you're kind of...
I'm sitting with strangers.
I sat this year with Cartier because I was wearing a lie who does not have a table Okay, so I was kind of the misfit which I'm always okay with.
I'm I'm used to that.
It was fine But it's just an interesting situation cuz everything that makes you comfortable is taken from you You know, it's a I think they should add and you get a plus one for your stylist cuz you're like You know, that's why people I guess go with their designer sometimes right cuz they totally and my designer is dead So who are you sitting with them?
I sat with a bunch of people that I didn't really know.
But I always make friends there.
I really like Jon Batiste.
I thought he was like so cool.
I love him. And he was my most memorable guest because I just sat and talked to him forever.
He's super awesome.
He like sat down, the first thing he asked me was what's your favorite key to sing in?
Which no one's ever asked me before.
And he goes, I'm guessing it's a G or a C, but I think F would probably be your ceiling.
And he sat down and said that right away.
I'm like, you're my friend, I like you.
And what is your favorite key?
He was right, GNC. Ah ha.
All right, we're gonna talk a little bit about the past, it's gonna talk a little bit about, obviously your new music.
So we're just gonna wander, if at any point you feel whatever, you want to take a break, by all means.
I appreciate it, I feel good.
Okay, good. I like being in this room, this room's good.
Oh, we like it! Yeah.
All right, this is good.
I've got a pretty good compass of like, where I feel at home now, and so, just being able to sit in a space where you feel really safe, always you get more clarity and more honesty and that's what I'm always looking for.
You know, I've interviewed you before.
You look really familiar to me.
No, we never saw each other cause I was at NPR.
The voice. I was a new host back then.
I hadn't done a lot of celebrity interviews and you came on and said, ask me anything, anything at all, no holds barred.
And I had no idea what to do with that.
I literally just froze and thought, I don't know what to ask Miley Cyrus if she's saying ask me anything.
And I was wondering, as I've watched you kind of evolve, if you would say something like that now starting an interview.
It depends on with.
I think I would say something like that now, but with, you know, maybe just paying a little closer attention.
But yeah, you could ask me anything because now I learned that I'm in control, which is probably why I said it to you then.
And the worst that happens is I just leave the room and say, you know, I'll be right back and then just don't come back.
I'd love for you to explain what that means for you.
Now, when you have this idea of being control and being safe and understanding what your own boundaries are and how you interact with people, you know, cause it's animalistic.
It's like, you know, everything will change the moment that anyone or any animal is unsafe.
It's like, we all have our different kind of tellers.
Mine is like all in the throat, which makes so much sense.
It's where I feel everything.
I can feel like, a tightness or a shortness of breath, or I can feel kind of like my skin change of when I feel that I'm not completely safe.
And I've given myself a mantra, don't run.
Cause I don't want to leave situations that make me uncomfortable, cause that's what life is.
We gotta be comfortable being uncomfortable.
But I also, I'm the mother to myself.
I mother me. How does that play out?
You, I mean, I love that.
I've never really heard that.
Because my mom no longer travels with me because I'm 33 years old and it was getting ridiculous and now she's, like, an adult and I'm an adult.
And it was really important for me to, you know, I never want to say detach from my mom because we're so close.
I mean, I'll get tears in my eyes even talking about her.
I just love her so much but, I, at one point— Of course we're talking about Tish.
Yes. Tish is my mom.
She's everything. I, you know, had to learn that, you know, there might be.
And if nature plays its course in the way that it does, I will be an individual without my mom at some point in my lifetime.
And that used to just completely paralyze me in fear.
And so I guess the reason I said I mother me is because I don't have my mom with me the way that I used to.
And now I just go, what was it about her that made everything better, and it was safety again.
Because I knew any situation that I was in that I didn't feel safe in, my mom would get me out of it, and, or, make it better.
Figure out what it is that was making me feel that way and her helped me adjust it.
And so, now I just imagined what soothed me so much about her and then I just do it for myself.
You know, you have been famous forever, it feels like.
And these past few years have been absolutely huge for you.
Last year, you won your first Grammy for your song Flowers off your last album.
And you exuded so much joy and so much gratitude at that moment.
And so I'm wondering why winning meant so much?
So I think I never admitted to myself how much it hurt me to not always be recognized for my work.
And, you know, I had a lot of songs that - Flowers isn't my only big song, I've had other big songs, but it was the time that I got recognized for it, and I think I've hidden behind it didn't matter, because then every time it happens annually, it would have hurt.
And so when I finally did get recognized, again, it was just like an extra layer of that bandage over something that I didn't even know really hurt me.
And, you know, now I have enough understanding to say, like, I don't need to win.
But like anyone, I want to.
Why do you think it took so long?
I think when you do things your own way, you're always respectfully a little bit ahead because I like to open the door.
I, you know, it's nice when someone opens it for you.
But I kind of like to be in front and open the door myself.
And I think women that are loud and, you know, open with their sexuality, and I don't want to hide behind that, but I do think something of my - there's a couple of things.
Let's go back. I think from starting from being on Disney you already have something that you kind of have to overcome, which I've never understood needing to overcome Disney or being Hannah Montana because Hannah Montana was, uh, like a singer and I was never nominated for Best New Artist which was totally cool with me but at one point I just think I kind of was the Best New Artist and if it wasn't the best it was the most impactful to a certain generation that there should be some sort of recognition for that and also the amount of work that I was putting in was so heavy so I think with the Grammys
it was like overcoming Disney overcoming the character and then when I left the character behind like all the behind, like it was like, okay, cut.
I am officially like, so me that I think I just went so many steps ahead really fast and I don't think that everyone could completely keep up.
But then also female rebellion has always been something that takes a little while for critics and for you know, sophisticated shows to totally take that woman seriously.
There's a lot there to unpack.
That was breathless.
but sorry. It was a loaded question.
No, there's just like a - There's a lot there.
I mean, I'm really interested with the idea of having to overcome your Hannah Montana days in the sense of being considered a real artist, right?
Yeah, that's what I think it kind of was.
Yeah, that somehow the machinery of Disney and how it's, you know, been the place that a lot of people have come from.
But there were other Disney artists that got dominated in that category, but I believe, I don't know who else before that, but the Jonas brothers, But it was boys and so they didn't have like a character to shed But because I wore a wig and I was a pop star, you know I remember being brokenhearted because the Jonas Brothers I believe got asked to perform with Stevie Wonder and You know I never got an opportunity like that as a young Girl, when my show had been on air for years before and I had had everyone on that show with Dolly Parton We've had Vicki Lawrence who like taught me so many amazing
things It actually was the greatest blessing though that those awards never happened because I was recognized all the time by millions of people that were really, you know, their identities were being formed by me.
There's a part of them that's like a little part of me.
And so it's like, I love that people became my, you know, my reward is that people loved me and that felt good.
But you know, of course every year, you know, never having my name called And I was just working so hard and I did feel like there was, you know, not necessarily saying I am owed it or I deserve it but it just felt like, what am I not doing?
Where's the math? Because I feel like if we're doing the equation, I feel like it equals some sort of, you know, just validation, physical validation.
Alright. I want to talk about the new album, Something Beautiful.
I've always had a bit of trouble pinning your music down because you are always experimenting in this way that's innovative.
You go through different genres, different types of music.
And so I'd love to know what you're trying to do with this album.
I have a hard time pinning myself down too.
And I wouldn't say that all my albums are even necessarily reflective of what I would say or who I would say I am as an artist or musician.
Sometimes my albums are experimentation for me and they end up being shared.
And so with Something Beautiful, I wanted to reclaim and re -imagine the word beautiful and what it means to me.
some of the most beautiful moments in my life.
You know, I am also very emotional.
I cry about everything, so I'm fine.
You know, but when I think about, you know, being born, the first person that I saw was my grandma, and it gets me emotional.
And, you know, my mom was adopted and so being able to be put into her arms and immediately think, it just, it's deep.
It's like way before me, you know?
There's so much there.
and when I think about these moments in my life being handed to her when I was first born and then you know when she passed away, both of those moments were so beautiful to me, and one of them is really joyous and one of them is really painful but they're equally beautiful.
That's why I think I've made this album is just to reclaim what beauty is because I think birth is beautiful, I think death is beautiful.
I think we've been taught to that like rage or or hatefulness, you know, there's not a beauty in it, but it lets you know you're alive, you're feeling something and it's...
You're a big believer in rage.
You have to get it out.
I had physical pain in my body for years and I realized it's because I didn't let myself be angry.
A lot of women, I think that I've known, that go, man, I have hip pain or have joint pain and then I watched them in their lives.
You know, yes, please, thank you.
You know, my mom does this, she could order a baked potato, a cake could come and she'll say, thank you so much. you know, she's always polite and she had all these headaches all the time.
And I told her, I was like, mom, you gotta get real mad.
So I think rage and anger is something that we should let ourselves feel.
But it's just, you know, keep it to yourself.
You know, use it. That's what I wanna do with the things that make me, you know, angry.
When was the last time you felt rage?
The last time I felt rage, I think, you know what, again, I get way too emotional.
But true rage is, I think, Probably to do with my mom, you know, or my sister.
It's like the way that… it's not rage.
Real rage, you know, I can actually know when.
It's real rage was after I made an album, Plastic Hearts, and I felt myself getting caught into an idea of me, like this tornado of the idea of me, and I fell for it and I got inside of it.
And when I actually landed and came back down, I realized the vortex I had been in.
And when I looked around and thought of the people that I had placed in my life to keep me safe, and they didn't, I had rage.
Because I actually, I don't need anyone to commit to taking care of me, but don't say you will.
I understand that this is sensitive, so forgive me, and you can just move on, but obviously this was the period after your divorce.
And so, weirdly, I'm not talking about him.
Okay, that's what I'm just because I think people talk about things, but they're not talking about it.
And I'm just trying to...
Mine is more. Just like actually in my industry, you know, I have I have a full new creative team around me who I have in the studio who I create music with now.
And I think this is why my last two albums are the ones where you can hear me the cleanest and the clearest. What is a Miley Cyrus song?
If you had to say you know, there's like two, there's two.
I heard that there's only two or three genres.
There's normal people that make normal music for like normal people, then there's weird people.
And we all know that kind of music that makes weird music for weird people.
And then there's weird people that have learned how to make normal music and kind of normal people that know how to make weird music and there's only normal and weird, and that's kind of it.
So I think I make normal music, and I also make weird music.
So like, Flowers is kind of like normal music, meaning you can understand it.
You know, you don't have to question, you know, anything.
After you listen to it, you can just simply enjoy it.
And then I like to make weird music, which is like a song on Something Beautiful like Prelude, or the title track Something Beautiful that just makes you question a little bit more.
So I think Miley's songs are either normal music or weird music.
You know, I don't love the middle.
The lead single off of Something Beautiful is called the End of the World.
And you've talked about how it's a song you wrote for your mom in a hard moment.
Can you tell me about writing it?
Yeah. So that was completely ridiculous.
Like I said, me and my mom were - are very close, but it is ridiculous at some points because she went on a vacation to Italy without me for one week.
And it felt like the end of the world to the both of us.
She called me - That's what the song's about?
That was what it was about.
I had never had my mom leave the country without me before.
And again, too old, maybe, to feel that way, but that's how I feel.
And my mom called me and she said, I don't know why, but I just, I want to cry today.
Like, I forgot where they were, some were gorgeous.
And she's like, I just, I'm looking out my window and there's nothing out there for me because, like, you're back home.
And the first lyric is, today you woke up and you told me that you wanted to cry.
That was my mom. Mhm.
You sang the song at the Château Marmont, and you got really emotional during it.
What was going on there?
My mom was right in the front row and you know, there's a part, it does it to me now, there's a lyric that says you've been thinking about the future like it's already yours.
And to me that was just like a lyric about kind of not only mortality, but also just yeah, that that every day isn't promised to us.
So worrying about the future that may never come is so pointless.
But then me thinking about a future without her just breaks my heart.
So that's that lyric gets me every time.
Um, you're also releasing a film to go with the album.
Um, and that's a first for you.
Why does you want to make a film?
You know, it's a visual album.
And the reason I chose to do it was because I wanted to do one thing.
Extremely well. You know, my stepdad asked me the other day, why are you the only one without a makeup line?
I was like, cause I don't, it's not my passion.
And he goes, that's the right answer.
And it made so much sense.
It's like, I don't have a makeup line because I'm not a makeup artist. And some people operate differently, you know?
And dollies always says, you do you and I'll do me, together we'll be us.
This woman has cupcakes, you know, dumpkins, amusement parks, all the things.
I've never felt like that was really for me.
And I've always admired that she, Can and wants I mean, it's like a deep passion of her.
She absolutely adores it to me It's me by a piano writing songs and telling my stories and then creating a gorgeous visual and support of that That's what I love to do It brings to mind a question that I've always had which is you started your career as an actor and a singer, obviously but You other than a few brief Acting gigs really kind of left that behind why well Well, it's actually really interesting because before I got Hannah Montana because I was a singer.
So I was singing in Nashville.
There was a little place at our mall where you could go and make demos.
This is Nashville for you, you know, Nashville is like, we don't have a Build -A -Bear.
We have like build -a -country music star.
So I used to go to the mall and make my demos and write my songs, and they were looking for someone that could, you know, really sing, not just record kids' music, but actually have music being the heart of the show.
So I got known as being an actress, but I actually hadn't acted in anything.
I had been in a baked bean commercial with Leanne Womack, and I had two lines in a Tim Burton movie one time.
I was not an actress.
And so I, you know, became an actress so I could bring that part to life.
And then I've just never really found the role for me because I think I am such a character and myself, that to find something that can absorb me completely is really challenging and I challenge every writer and director out there to bring it to me because I would love to.
I just need, I either want to be myself because I'm really good at that, or I want to throw me away because I'm actually pretty good at that too.
I'm not good in the middle.
I want to take you, we've touched on this but your sort of upbringing, obviously your dad was Billy Ray Cyrus, and is living, he's living.
Yeah, he's living. Yeah.
Yep, indeed. I was curious about little Miley, when did you realize that you had this talent that you could really sing?
Not just sing sing, but sing?
Well, even more than that, people used to pay attention to me in weird ways that I noticed that like, when I would go somewhere like not everyone was being kind of like looked at or treated the way that I was.
I used to have this thing when my mom, my mom was like a total shopaholic when I was a kid.
She would take me to the mall, which is the worst place for a kid with like a bad attention span.
And my favorite thing to do would to be going into the front of the stores and pretend I was a mannequin and I would hold it for so long.
I would not budge. And I would get crowds of people around staring at me because I was just like milking it so hard. And they would, I think they were like, how long is this little girl going to like keep up the bit and I would just do the bit.
And so I, you know, I definitely noticed that like people kind of, you know, there was something magnetic between me and other people.
And I don't say they were magnetized to me.
I was actually like magnet, we were, we were to each other.
But then with the singing, you know, I, I would just always sing on stage and I didn't know if people were just cheering.
Cause I was, you know, like little, it was cute for me to come out and do like Elvis songs or whatever.
But I guess I never really thought like, oh, I can really sing.
I just know that people were reacting and so that's what I was going off of.
I wasn't thinking about is this good or bad.
I was just watching people light up and going like, yeah, that's what I want.
I want you to react to me.
I heard you mentioned briefly in a recent interview with David Letterman that you were bullied in middle school before you left for Hollywood in Hannah, Montana.
And, you know, I'm, I'm the mother of a 12 year old girl, and.
Ouch, I feel for her.
Yeah, middle school is terrible.
And I'm wondering what you took away from that period of your life, where all of a sudden you go off to have like this amazing success, but you know, you had this really painful time.
Like, why was that happening?
I don't know if there was a reason, you know, that I was like specifically chosen to be I think a lot of what did it for me in middle school was the attention that I had on me because of my dad.
And just, you know, people like...
I guess putting on to me that I thought that I was, you know, special in this other way and it's so, it wasn't about - I don't think what hurt them was that I was special but it was that - it just made them feel not special.
And I also, you know, as outgoing as I was, middle school was kind of a shy time for me.
I kind of shut down at that time just because, you know, bullying just takes so much from you.
You just don't want attention.
And so I kind of like wanted to be under the radar when I was in middle school, like chilled out, you know, and I was like, in elementary school, I liked all the attention.
But then once I got to middle school, I didn't like it so much because these people got too mean, too cruel, and I didn't, you know, I didn't like have all the boyfriends or anything like that.
Like I just, I just, there's like four guys I'm thinking of that I'm like, you, like, I really liked so many guys and like, they just weren't really liking me back quite as much. And then it was like, I just wasn't, I wasn't the most like popular girl in school.
So you ended up going to Hollywood and you do Hannah Montana?
And it's interesting that we've been talking a little bit about getting over Disney because I had another former Disney star who's now an actor, Jenna Ortega, Tell me that she can always tell in a room who is the child actor.
That there's like a certain noticeable precociousness.
She said people just treat you as if you're an adult.
And that it kind of warps you.
Do you think that that resonates?
I, you know, I was just literally still thinking about middle school.
I'm really hoping in the comments of this interview, someone goes, Myle's lying, she was really popular in school.
And I'm gonna be like, oh my God, I was popular.
Maybe I was. I feel like I wasn't - That's what I was really totally spacing out when you were saying that.
I could tell that you were not with me at all.
I was really hoping that someone will go like, you were just trying to say you weren't popular.
You totally were. I really hope that I was, but I don't think I was, but maybe I was.
But my point about that with the child acting it actually correlates to that because I don't know how she feels about it.
I've never actually got to speak to her.
I would totally love to.
I think people that grew up in the same position would be really sick to do a round table.
I think you should all be in a group chat.
Totally. Ariana says that there should be, you know, the therapy for child actors, which I totally agree.
Like there should be a weekly, you know, check in.
There should be like a better system of community because I don't know her.
I would definitely love to.
I think that I've done, you know—so this only means nothing to do with what she said.
I've been, you know, doing very consistent, you know, therapy since I was 17 or 18 years old.
And And so I think I've cleared up a lot of the feelings that I had about being, you know, like a child star.
And so now I don't notice it so much because I don't notice it in me.
It's, it's always about us.
You know, I've realized that anything that you're paying attention to, usually it's just a reflection of something else that you feel.
So I feel so cleaned up.
Like I cleaned so much of any of that old stuff that I held onto, that now when I walk into a room, I don't really notice it.
I guess the only thing that I would say is I do notice when people are working too hard. To answer that question, to challenge myself on what I just said, maybe I actually do notice because when I just, you know, I met Sabrina Carpenter a couple of times and every time I see her, I have the urge to tell her, you know, ask her if she's okay.
Like, are you doing good?
Like, are you getting enough sleep?
Because I'll see her, you know, she's like performing in Ireland and then the next day she's doing like a show in Kansas and I'm like, I don't know how that could be physically okay.
You know, because I was in that situation.
So maybe I do notice more.
And I kind of have the thing of just wanting to make sure everyone's feeling good.
Because I just, you know, I know what it feels like to fry yourself, and I just don't want anyone to get fried.
But I like all the new girls.
I think they're all very, you know, unique and are very found.
That's what I like to see.
I like people that have found themselves.
Because I don't know if I had myself totally figured out yet.
Speaking of, you know, a lot of young stars have had to find themselves in the limelight, and yours was a similar journey.
There was a lot of scrutiny, a lot of discussion.
When you look back at that period, 2013, when you were on stage with Robin Fick and getting a lot of criticism for twerking at the VMAs.
All you have to say is 2013.
I know where we're going.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I'm wondering, while you were shedding your Disney persona and becoming an adult in the public eye, when you look back at that period, what do you see?
I see adults not acting like it.
That's what I see. Because I would never look at someone that's 18, 19, 20, 21 years old and judge them as an adult.
Because they're not yet.
You know, at one point, I think there was even a petition, it was like millions of moms against and smiley or something.
I would never be – Sorry I'm laughing.
But it's true. Did you sign the petition?
Is that what made you laugh?
I'm just messing with you.
Oh my god. You looked like you were like...
I – that was me. Isn't that crazy?
Just like petition.
I'm going, well, now it seems very soft if you look at culture today.
You know, because I like it – in 2013 maybe it felt really shocking but at the end of it when you watch it back it really wasn't that wild.
I mean, I was dressed as a teddy bear.
And um, when you look at culture now, you know, young people, they sing about sex all the time.
So it's like, and by the way, they sing about sex way before I did, too.
So that's the thing.
Um, but, you know, for me, I think what I see is, you know, what I see in myself is, you know, being bold and courageous and like having the guts and I see myself being authentic to me.
That's what I was doing.
In the same vein, you've said that you'll never be able to live down the image of you swinging naked on a wrecking ball, which but um, I don't need to live it down.
Yeah, yeah. Um, which you did in the music video for the song, Sinead O 'Connor, um, wrote an open letter to you after the wrecking ball video was released.
And I just, I responded in a way that I would never as an adult, but that was also an adult talking to a young person.
Yeah. I mean, she wrote the music business doesn't give a shit about you or any of us.
They will prostitute you for all your worth and cleverly make you think that it's what you wanted.
That sounds again like something that's, you know, the more sophisticated you are, you can kind of start to notice that when we say, I know that I say things and I think, you know, at the end of it, we both, let me, let me retract that.
The way I would say it is that feels like her experience, you know, being reflected on to me.
But that's not my experience.
My experience was not that the music industry didn't care about me, you know?
Yeah, that's what I was wondering if like looking back those words have a different resonance now or you just see them differently.
No, I still don't feel that way.
But I also came from a very different upbringing where I I've known fame since the moment that I was born.
I've never known anything else.
And so, I think I was really well -prepared in a way that someone, you, it's really hard to train yourself, to know what to expect.
Everything that fame can bring.
But I already had the handbook because they did the same thing to my dad, you know.
So I, and to Dolly and to everyone around me, you know, Dolly's a great example of that.
And so I, I felt that, you know, you know what I think it is?
I understand the business I'm in.
I'm in the music industry.
I'm in the record business.
So when I sign a contract, they're buying, you know, records that they wish to sell.
So I understand that I am setting myself up to become merchandise.
I'm committed to them that I want to not only bring success for myself, but to them also.
So I just understand the music industry.
And at one point in my life, I look forward to just being an artist untied, untethered.
At some point, I'll get to do that.
I guess I was thinking also of Sinead because you did her song Nothing Compares to You on SNL 50 this past February and considering the history, I was wondering why you chose her song again.
Well, it was actually Lorne Michaels request. Yes.
Lauren asked me to do Nothing Compares to You.
And it was originally Mark Ronson's idea, who was kind of creative directing the music.
And so that was, that was initially, you know, didn't come from me, but I thought it was a great idea because I think we all had, again, talking about those band -aids on heartaches and wounds.
Of course, this, you know, interaction that I had with Sinead, you know, bums me out because I really respect her as a person, as an artist and so it was my way of, you know, paying my respects.
I find you know the relationship between female pop stars to be really interesting and often very fraught.
Divas. Is that what you think is happening?
I mean, probably on my end.
I'm, you know, I don't mind the word diva.
Maybe I'm a little diva.
I don't mind the word either.
It's kind of cool. Yeah.
It's like, yeah, you know, it's a fantasy.
You can be a diva. You don't have to be famous to be a diva.
Just be a diva. Diva does not mean difficult for no reason.
Do you think you're difficult?
Not for no reason. I'm difficult, but not for no reason.
I was just surprised that you have said that you don't feel part of the cohort of singers of your sort of generation and age group.
Not that I think, again, everyone needs to have a group chat, but that you've sort of held yourself apart in a certain way.
And I was wondering, like, why you think that is?
I don't think it's so much of a conscious choice.
I think, for me, my persona, or like, the public's idea of me, you know, is on in some way, but, in my own time, I am very off.
I like no makeup, my hair up messy, don't even have to— I don't even look in the mirror in my own time.
And it's not that I haven't found it because I haven't looked very hard. I'm sure, like, you know, girls in my community are going, like, well, that's me too!
And you haven't reached out.
It's like, no, I haven't.
I haven't looked very hard. So, no, I haven't found it, but I haven't really looked.
I like doing my - my two worlds.
Maybe it's something like subconsciously from the show.
Like, from Hannah Montana, where I think, like, my famous person has one life, and then, like, as a regular person, I have another life.
I think maybe, like, subconsciously, it programmed me, not even joking, to think that, like, you know, who I am at home and, like, who I am as a performer are, like, kind of two separate identities, and actually they are.
It's almost like the superhero cape.
It's definitely a superhero cape, but it's drag.
You know, that's how...
That's why when RuPaul, like, started coming into culture, I was like, I...
Get this. This is what I do, also.
It's like, the minute I put on a gown, I'm somebody else, you know?
You talked about how close you are with your mom.
You know, she obviously managed you.
Your grandmother was like the head of your fan club.
You had these really strong female sort of lineage.
I don't know the story, though, about how Queen Dolly became your godmother.
Why did that happen?
It was actually because of Hannah Montana.
Because she played my aunt on the show, but I've known her since I was a little girl.
Because my dad did music with her when I was just a baby.
And so then I hadn't seen her since I was, you know, very young.
And we got really tight during the Hannah Montana time, you know, I think she like, looked at a little girl in a blonde wig and was like, I see you.
And there was something just very, you know, we it was just divine and kismet.
Like we just we're not blood, but we're family, you know, truly.
She said kind of, you know, when we first started getting very close, it was like, you know, I never felt this kind of like a daughter, you know, she's really held me like a daughter.
So she was the godmother you chose?
Yeah, and she chose me really.
We chose each other, like she walked in and she just like showed me a baby pink robe and like smelled like baby powder.
Like, you know, her whole thing, her whole face, the hair, the wig, the whole thing.
And everyone was like kind of in awe of her, and I remember thinking that I didn't feel that.
I actually felt, because when you see her at first it's just so incredible that, like, you're kind of taken aback by just how much power she holds.
But I just felt, instead of seeing myself, like, retract in, like, awe of her, I just felt myself going forward and just feeling really safe.
And it also felt like I can do this for the rest of my life and I can be happy because she just is so happy and has so much joy.
And you see the, you know, you see the, like, celebrities that don't have joy in their life And she's someone else that obviously had a super private relationship and a private life.
And it was just something I always admired more than the way that she looks or the way that she performs. I admired her, you know, her staying true to herself and being at home with her husband, Carl, who she just lost and having a real life and having a lot of love in it.
I do wonder, at this point, what it's like for you to have grown up so famous and to also be part of this famous family because in the past few years, you know, your mom remarried and that caused some rifts in your family.
Your dad has a new relationship with Elizabeth Hurley.
And all this stuff gets picked apart sort of endlessly in the media, on social media.
And it must be complicated to have all that stuff play out publicly.
Yeah, the thing I like about the new way that the world works is that everything is so fast, it's forgotten really quickly.
Like, if you remember like in the nineties, like when something happened in a Remember how it just happened for like a year?
And now it's just gone.
And so that's the one thing that I like about it is that how fast social media moves now it just eats everything.
You know so, um something may seem really important for a couple hours but then there's a meme that goes viral, you know somebody like scats at Walmart or something and that becomes the next thing.
So um, you know, it's difficult for us because anything that's happening in the public.
You know, it's just, It can be embarrassing, you know for the person that's experiencing it, you know, not so much for me.
I try to just be more compassionate to my parents because I hate that for them.
And I mostly hate it for my siblings that have chosen to not be in this industry because they didn't choose that kind of highlight on themselves.
But for me, I've gotten so used to it that I'm like, if this is the symptom of this is that sometimes we deal with these, you know, embarrassing or difficult, you know, like public opinions and that's something I'm willing to take to have the life that we have, but it doesn't make it any easier.
You know, mostly what makes me sad about it is for them.
You know, because like I said, I feel pretty strong and I've taken so much on the chin.
I feel like I've stayed strong without ever getting too calloused or too, you know, I'm pretty open and vulnerable for how much I've been through.
But yeah, just, you know, no one likes to wake up to that so it sucks, but it's worth it.
Yeah. Are you still estranged from your dad?
Are you... No, we've all, you know, I think timing is everything, you know, there's been enough bridges now of time to get us all reconnected and I think for me, as I've gotten older, respecting my parents as individuals instead of as parents.
Again, because, you know, my mom's really loved my dad for her whole life.
And I think being married to someone in the music industry and not being a part of it is obviously really hard. And so I think, you know, I took on some of my mom's hurt as my own cause it hurt her kind of more than it hurt me as an adult.
And so I owned a lot of her pain as mine, But now that my mom is like so in love with my stepdad Dom who I'm also just I completely adore And now that my dad I see him finding happiness outside of that too I can I can love them both as individuals instead of as a as a kind of you know a parental pairing I'm being an adult about it.
You know at first it's hard because the little kid in you reacts before the adult and you can go Yes, that's your dad, but that's just another person that deserves to, you know, be in his bliss and to be happy.
So my adult self has caught up.
My child self has caught up.
You've talked some about therapy.
And it's just something I just wanted to ask you, because you've discussed doing EMDR, and I did EMDR. Love it, saved my life.
And I'm just wondering about that.
What it did for you, how it helped you, because it's a very specific type of therapy that really is to do with trauma.
Yeah. You're gonna get me.
That's sweet. The tag on my tee said, take a moment just for you.
So I gotta answer this question, but it's for me.
The first thing that happened was I was guided to seat myself on a train.
Did you do it this way where you watch it pass you by?
And it's so weird because it's like watching a movie in your mind, but it's different than dreaming.
You know, you're kind of more in yourself, but still in another place of consciousness that's really hard to describe, unless you've been in that hypnotic state.
And like I see myself sit down on the train and he says, just watch your movie, like watch your life like a movie and watch it pass you by through the windows And I see all these times just like, you know, like just like frames of these of these moments like a film.
And he goes, what's the feeling of anxiety that comes up for you when you're performing?
And I never even thought about it before, but in my hypnotic place said, I just want them to love me so bad.
And he said, when was the first time you felt that way?
And then suddenly the train stopped moving forward and it started going backwards.
And I saw myself, sounds so trippy, but this is medical, this is real.
It is real, I've done it.
It's real. I saw myself in the womb of my biological grandmother because my mom was adopted and I heard my mom's biological parents talking about putting her up for adoption and I felt myself being inside of her womb as my mother hearing them speaking about giving her away and my mom thinking, I just want them to want me.
I want them to love me so bad and then, when's the next time you felt that way?
Fast forward, I see my mom being handed to my grandmother who adopted her.
Who's my everything Loretta.
That's my Mamie that's she's my she was the one that did the main grades.
So handing to her and then I just like that I see myself being handed to my grandmother too as a baby.
So I realized both as it puts my mom had a really intense, very dangerous pregnancy with me so I wasn't actually handed to my mom.
I was handed to my grandma.
So I saw myself being handed to the same woman that my mom was handed to.
And I felt our unison right away.
And he's like, keep going, keep going.
And I found myself on a mountaintop in a place that I had experienced a lot of like trauma in the snow, in Montana.
It was just like a moment that was just a really intense kind of like, I guess, just being surrounded by nature.
You know, it really puts you in your place.
And I saw myself there as a little girl in a coat that I used to love, this little red coat with a red beret.
And I saw all these people that have brought me so much peace and love all of a sudden show up So my dog that died a couple years ago, my grandma, my mom It'll get me my boyfriend that I have now and they all grabbed me by the hands And we started playing ring around the rosy and I came out of it and I've never had stage fright again ever Wow, I don't have stage fright anymore Now, I did more sessions because there was so much more under that.
But I think the thing that I had of I want them to love me so bad, it wasn't mine.
It was my mom's. And I think maybe it pained me for her to carry it, so I've been carrying it for her.
I do that sometimes.
So that's something I'm working on.
After the break, Miley and I speak again about what her fame has done to her family.
I think it would be, you know, delusional for any of us to think that that doesn't add a level of complication to our already complicated dynamic.
the New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.
I could immediately navigate to something that matches what I'm feeling.
The way the tabs are at the top, with all of the different sections.
It's just easier to navigate that way.
There is something for everyone.
Those personalized pages, the You tab, that one's my favorite.
I can also save my articles easily in this area.
Right under the byline, it says, click here if you like to listen to this article.
I like that the Cooking tab on top is really easily accessible.
So I'm on my way home and I'm just thinking, what am I going to make for dinner?
I'll just quickly go on to cooking and say, oh, I've got this in my pantry.
I'm going to try out some of these recipes I see in here.
I go to games always.
Doing the mini, doing the wiggle.
I loved how much content it exposed me to, things that I never would have thought to turn to a news app for.
This app is essential.
The New York Times app.
All of the Times all in one place.
Download it now at nytimes .com slash app.
Hi. It's Maile. Hi.
It's Lulu. Hi, Lulu.
How are you? I'm really good.
How are you? Very good.
Good to talk to you.
Good to talk to you too.
Are you home? Yes. I'm so happy.
I was gone a while so just getting back in my bed is just bliss.
I'm so happy. Heaven, I feel you.
It was just Mother's Day.
I was thinking about you and Tish.
and I was wondering what you all did.
We did, you know, we're very kind of simple.
So we didn't do much. We cooked breakfast. You know, me and my sister brought my mom flowers and just sat in the kitchen and caught up.
Somehow I got the duty of cooking breakfast for six people.
So there was that. Are you a good cook?
I can do the simple things.
You know what? I'm country enough that my seasoning is appropriate.
It's like, you know, enough salt on anything is good.
You know, when you were talking about your mom and your relationship with your mom, you talked about holding this emotional baggage.
And I think the phrase you used was owning her pain.
And it made me wonder about your dad and if you ever felt the same about your dad because you've talked before about his rough childhood, about his own upbringing, his own struggles.
Definitely. I have a lot of grace for him.
My dad grew up in severe poverty, you know, not always having indoor bathrooms. And he had rarely, if at all, gone to the dentist by the time he actually met my mom.
You know, no doctors appointments, you know, he was raised in a super small town in Kentucky, I spent some of my life in Nashville, but most of it was in LA and Toluca Lake in a safe neighborhood, you know.
and I just can't even compare our upbringings in any way, shape, or form.
I think I might've mentioned my granddad, maybe I didn't, was a Democratic State Legislator.
He, in every way, was a politician, and in that way was a showman, too.
My dad had some polarities in his life, too, because when he was with his dad, he was living a completely different life than when he was with his mom.
and his mom, you know, they grew up, they all pretty much shared one living space, and again, they didn't always, you know, didn't have, you know, the clean essentials and had a really hard time in school so, um, I definitely, you know, have a really compassionate place in my heart for my dad's upbringing that I can't really quite understand.
And by the way, if at any point you don't wanna answer any of this, just tell me.
I appreciate that. Because I know that this is sensitive.
Um, the reason I sort of wonder about this is, you know, you worked so much with your dad and then you sort of surpassed him in success.
And I wondered if you ever thought he felt competitive or eclipsed by that.
That's, I think, has added a level of complexity, you know, within my family for sure.
Um... And, you know, like you said, I think it would be hard for anybody, you know, with a dream to see somebody else, you know, achieving theirs in a way that you see for yourself.
But I do think, um, that kind of, you know, love conquered all in that sense of he can still find the pride in me, but I think it would be, you know, delusional for any of us to think that that doesn't add a level of complication to our already complicated dynamic.
Have you felt guilty about it?
I got rid of my guilt and shame in the EMDR, that was a big part of that.
So at times in my life, I think I've just felt, you know, guilt and shame was a driver for me a lot.
Like I had a hard time accepting that I could suffer because of how blessed I am.
I don't think it's actually really played too much of a part between me and my dad because I have to have the faith that, you know, like any dad he would want this for me.
Something we didn't talk about last time is sobriety.
You've talked about how you needed to get sober to protect your vocal cords.
I'm a fellow sober person.
I love it. Yeah, it's been about two and a half years.
I know there was discussion in your family about your dad's sobriety.
Did you ever talk to him about that, about your own journey and about if it could help him or not?
I think he, um, has a bit of a, you know, harder time, completely, uh, enjoying being sober.
You know, I kind of enjoy it.
I think my dad is somebody that's like, that would be real nice right now.
Uh, my dad always calls it, he calls it a good, bad habit, things that make you feel good, but they're bad.
Um, so I think for him, you know, I grew up in a different generation where, You know, my dad grew up in, you know, between like, you know, the 60s and the 80s.
It wasn't normal for you to have your psychiatrist on speed dial.
So I think my dad just didn't really have the support.
And I think, you know, above all the steps, I think support and sobriety has got to be a top tier of importance.
So you never talk to him about it?
We don't avoid it, but it's just not, you know, not really something that's our table talk.
You know, I think me and my dad like to talk about music and movies and, you know, it's not something that's ever been our focus but probably should be.
We probably should talk about that at some point.
You know, we ended our last conversation talking about your experience with EMDR. And you were basically describing how you work through intergenerational trauma in your sessions.
And it did make me wonder, given all that, Is being a parent something you're interested in?
It's not something I'm focused on.
I, you know, for being such an opinionated kind of sure person, this is a element in my life that I've always been pretty, not super attached to like a yes or no answer.
So I think I was telling you, you know, I was talking to my stepdad and he said, why are you the only celebrity without a makeup line?
and I said, because I'm not passionate about it, and he said, that's the right answer.
I feel that way about like motherhood, it's just never been something that I've been overly, you know, passionate about and it's a lot of responsibility and it's a lot of devotion and energy and I don't think, you know, if you're not passionate about that, I don't know how you do sleepless nights and 18 years of what my mom dealt with and when I say 18 years, I mean 33, because I'm still a baby.
So I just, I've never felt the burn, you know?
And I think for me, like the burn is everything.
Last question. As we were discussing how meaningful your Grammy win was.
It made me wonder about your relationship to mainstream success.
I mean, how important is that to you?
Because you had this whole discussion about weird music and how you like weird music and how you like popular music and sometimes those two things are in tension.
Mm -hmm. Well actually I think it's winding down my attachment to mainstream success.
I kind of feel like this album, it's not definitely not a last lap.
You know, I'm definitely not going 180 in my career necessarily right now.
But I think it's, you know, potentially the last time I'll do it exactly this way.
Like, I'm taking a big bet on this one.
You know, I'm all in.
But I don't think I'll put myself in a position that I add this much pressure to myself.
Again, I think I've on this one because of the level of commitment, there's a lot of pressure.
And a lot of things are going to change about that for me towards the end and the beginning of next year.
I mean, that's really kind of my focus of using this year to kind of wind that idea that I've had of myself down.
And, you know, there's a song on the album called Reborn, and it's kind of about this.
And I feel like next year, for me is going to be kind of this like rebirth of how I, you know, how I do things and how I look at my career.
But yeah, I feel like this for me as I'm starting to wind down on the pressure and not do it like that again.
That's Miley Cyrus.
Something beautiful is out now.
This conversation was produced by Wyatt Worm.
It was edited by Annabel Bacon, mixing by Sophia Lanman, original music by Roan Nimistow, Dan Powell, and Marianne Lozano. Photography by Phillip Montgomery.
Our senior Brooker is Priya Matthew and Seth Kelly is our senior producer.
Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.
Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pitman, Mattie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnick.
If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcasts.
And just a reminder, we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others.
Subscribe at youtube .com slash at the interview podcast. Next week, David talks with dancer Misty Copeland.
Are you the type of person who just wings it sometimes?
Rarely. I'm Virgo ballerina.
Come on. I'm Lulu Garcia -Navarro and this is the interview from The New York Times.
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