I think what I've observed in public spaces, especially in my neighborhood, is really just
a hustle and a bustle and people are going somewhere specific to do something specific
with specific people.
They're sort of on a mission, right?
Efficiency is the enemy of social life.
It's a kind of place, but allow us to enjoy our lives and enjoy each other more than we do
today.
You know, people say like, misery loves company.
I just, I don't think that is true.
I think that misery in a lot of ways requires company.
It requires can chip.
It requires community so that you are not isolated in your pain.
What kinds of things would we need to reorient our society around?
I'm Julie Beck, a senior editor at The Atlantic, and I'm Becca Rashid, producer of the How-To
series.
This is How to Talk to People.
Though I normally am not making a friend at the cafe, recently, there was a girl that
was working on her laptop.
She noticed I was two.
We started chitin' and chatin' and after a few weeks of running into each other so many
times at the cafe, she finally, slightly awkwardly asked yesterday, hey, do you mind if I get
your number if you maybe wanted to get a drink?
Every friendly sweet way of fighting through the awkward and just asking for the contact
and stuff.
So it was bold.
Even then, I could tell that people were observing our interaction and being like, what's happening
there?
There are two strangers who just started chatting at this table and it's because obviously
the space is not designed for the formation of new relationships.
It's more so just, we're all here doing our thing in our neighborhood.
Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.
It's hard because of course people do connect at cafes like you literally just did.
And in Paris or whatever, they may be happy for people to linger and chat all day, but
I think the connection that's happening in those spaces, that's not the purpose of the
space.
It's a product.
Perhaps a welcome by product, but the point of the space is to make money.
The point is to sell you something.
It's a business.
They're selling you a coffee.
They're selling you a sandwich.
There's several cafes in DC that I really like that just don't offer Wi-Fi or they give
you a ticket where you have a couple of hours of Wi-Fi after you buy something.
And I get why they're doing that because they want the customers to cycle through and
they don't want people taking up tables all day when they could get a fresh paying customer
in there that may well be good business sense.
But if those are the only spaces that you have to maybe just mingle and get to know people
that are in your neighborhood, where are the spaces?
What are the spaces where you can just have friendly mingling and that's the point.
Here at Kleinemberg is a researcher who's really into all of these questions that we've been
talking about.
He's a professor of sociology at New York University and he's an expert on city infrastructure
and urban life.
He wrote this book called Palaces for the People in which he talks about this concept called
Social Infrastructure.
That is essentially the physical spaces that are available to the public that are designed
to facilitate these social connections.
If you want to have a transit system like a train, you need an infrastructure to carry
the train, right?
The rails, for instance.
There is also an infrastructure that supports social life, social infrastructure.
And when I say social infrastructure, I'm referring to physical places.
It can be organizations, it can also be parks, physical places that shape our capacity to
interact.
When you have strong social infrastructure, people have a tendency to come out and linger.
And if you live in a poor neighborhood where the social infrastructure is strong, if you're
older, if you're more frail, if you're very young, you might spend more time sitting on
the stoop in front of your home.
You might have a bench that you spend time on that's on your street.
There might be a diner where you go every day.
What that means is there are people who are used to seeing you out in those public places
on a regular basis.
And when it's dangerous outside, someone might notice that you're not there.
And they might not even know your name.
They might just know your face.
Maybe they know where you live.
They're used to seeing each other in the public realm.
I grew up in Chicago.
And in 1995, just before I was about to start graduate school in sociology, there was
a heat wave that hit my hometown.
Lasted just a couple of days, but the temperatures were quite extreme.
It got to about 106 degrees.
Chicago did what it always does when there was a heat wave.
It turned on air conditioning everywhere you could go.
And the power grid got overwhelmed.
And very soon, the electricity went out for thousands of homes.
At the end of this week in July, Chicago had more than 700 deaths from the heat.
This was the pre-pandemic time.
So people dying in a city in a couple of days seemed like an exceptional thing.
We hadn't gotten numb to it yet.
I was really curious about what had happened.
And the first thing I did is I made these maps to see which people in places in Chicago
were hit hardest.
And first blushed the map looked exactly like you would expect it to look.
The neighborhoods that were hit the hardest were on the south side and the west side of
Chicago.
They were the historically segregated black, poor, ghettoized neighborhoods.
Right.
Chicago's extremely segregated.
And when there's a disaster, poor people living in segregated neighborhoods will fare
the worst.
So I looked a little more closely at the map.
And I noticed something that no one else had seen, which is that there were a bunch of
neighborhoods that were located right next to places that were among the deadliest neighborhoods
in Chicago.
But there's other set of places, wound up being extraordinarily healthy.
So these were neighborhoods that were geographically really close to each other and shared a lot
of characteristics, but they were having really different outcomes?
Matching neighborhoods.
Imagine two neighborhoods separated by one street, same level of poverty, same proportion
of older people, the risk factors that we ordinarily look for were equal, but they had wildly
disparate outcomes in this heat disaster.
That's the kind of puzzle that you live for when you're a social scientist.
And so what I observed is that the neighborhoods that had really high death rates, they looked
depleted.
They had lost enormous proportion of their population in the decades leading up to the heat wave.
They had a lot of abandoned buildings.
They had empty lots.
The sidewalks were broken.
They didn't have a lot of strong community organizations that had resources to put up impressive
operations.
Even the little playgrounds were in terrible shape, not well maintained.
And across the street in the neighborhoods that did better, the public spaces were much
more viable.
They didn't have abandoned homes.
They didn't have empty lots.
There were community institutions, grocery shops, coffee shops, a branch library, places
that anchored public life.
In those neighborhoods in Chicago, people knocked on the door and they checked in on each
other.
And as a consequence, if you were lived in one of these poor neighborhoods that had a strong
social infrastructure, you were more likely to survive the heat wave.
People in the neighborhood across the street that depleted neighborhood, there were ten
times more likely to die in the heat wave.
And that difference was really quite stark.
So you said when we talk about regular infrastructure, we're talking about what carries the train,
right?
So what carries the train of our relationships?
What are the actual railroad tracks?
Think about a playground, for instance.
We know that one of the core places that families go to meet other families in their neighborhood
is a playground.
That all kinds of socializing that happens when parents or grandparents or caretakers
of all kinds are pushing a swing and looking for a companion, someone to talk to.
Those conversations that the swing set often lead to a shared little break together on
the bench or maybe to a picnic and then a play to hate and then to families getting to
know each other and communities growing.
If you took playgrounds out of American cities and suddenly there's no playground, our social
lives would be radically different.
Now take away our schools, take away our zoos, our museums, our libraries, piece by piece.
We would erode our capacity to share space and engage one another.
And we haven't exactly had a demolition plan to get rid of shared public spaces in America
over the last several decades.
But in a lot of places we haven't done much to update them or improve them or build new
ones.
You can build a social infrastructure that's very exclusive and that also leads to fragmentation
and distrust.
So for instance, the country club, that's an amazing social infrastructure, the best social
infrastructure that your money can buy and it's likely to make you surrounded by people
who are just as elite as you are.
We act as if in the Old Testament on the fifth day God said, today I give you the playground
in the library and it's our birthright to spend time in them.
We forget that these are achievements.
These are human inventions.
We build giant parks, theaters, art spaces.
We created a good society based on a vision of radical inclusion.
Not quite radical enough.
People have always been left out of our public spaces.
There's no history of this idea that is complete if it doesn't pay attention to how racial
segregation works and how racial violence works and how gender excluded some people from
some public realms.
All of that stuff is there in the history of public space.
I think in the last several decades we've come to take all of these places for granted.
What is the connection between having places to just hang out and vibe and having a community
rally together and support each other in an emergency like a heat wave?
Well, one doesn't necessarily lead to the other.
You can have places where people hang out and vibe and don't get active and engaged
on important civic matters.
I generally argue that public spaces and social infrastructure, they're a necessary condition
for having some sense that we're in it together and we have some kind of common purpose,
but they're by no means sufficient.
In my book, I write about the work of a sociologist named Mario Small, who studied daycare facilities
for young children and he compared a very modern daycare facility that was set up for
busy work and parents who were in a hurry and needed a place that was efficient and who
could drop off their kids and seamlessly get back on the street and get to work.
He compared that to a daycare center that worked in the old fashion model.
Parents were expected to be in the room for five or ten minutes and to do a little bit
of volunteer work.
There was a kind of shared physical space that they had to go through every day.
What he found is that people who were in the first place, they got to work more quickly.
They just didn't get to know each other all that well.
Whereas people in the second place, they built up all these relationships.
Parents were sending their tiny child, the person about whom they cared more than
anything or anyone else in the world, to the home of a relative stranger, to the park
with a relative stranger because they were so quickly able to develop this sense of
being in it together with someone who's in many cases very much unlike them.
That has to do with programming, that has to do with design, that has to do with this
feeling of being a part of a shared project.
Some public spaces give us that feeling and others really don't.
Yeah, I'm curious about the mechanics of how that even happens.
Maybe it's because I don't have children and I don't go to the playground, but I feel
a bit of a divide where being in public is for being active and relaxing is for home.
So much of the public space around me is people are bustling.
People are engaging in commerce or they're just walking from here to there and they're
not opportunities to slow down and talk to each other and I don't know that we would.
Yeah, I mean.
Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense because efficiency is the enemy of social life.
You tend to enrich your social life when you stop and linger and waste time.
In fact, one of the really striking things, I think for Americans when we travel to other
countries is to see the extent to which people all over the world delight in sitting around.
The culture of the soup or of the coffee shop or the wine bar or the plaza.
Oh yeah, you have five hour dinners in France.
You can't find that waiter to get your check, you know?
You've gone.
Because the point is not to pay the check, the point is to be there.
And it's hard for us to come to terms with just how forcefully the ticking clock shapes
are capacity to take pleasure in social life.
It's interesting that you see the no-ify on the weekends as a way to cycle people out
of the space.
I thought that was the cafe or coffee shop making a grand gesture in favor of relationship
building.
Oh, I guess I'm just more cynical than you.
I mean, this isn't Luke's diner when he'll more girls, right?
There's no cell phone sign, you know, that's a very optimistic way to look at it, but I
think it's because they need to make money.
You know, I go to the public pool with friends, I get books from the library.
There is a very hot ticket at our local library, which is like a semi-regular puzzle swap that
they do.
And my partner and I were very cool.
We go and we swap puzzles with the community.
But I don't feel like I am really building new relationships or getting to know my neighbors
at these places or even at these events.
Like I love these resources.
I don't want to lose them.
I enjoy them.
But I just kind of use them by myself or with people I already know.
Maybe I make a little light-chitchat at the puzzle swap, but I'm not making new friends
there.
And I think it would feel pretty weird if I'd like tried to.
You know, I definitely see what Eric is saying in the sense that certain spaces are much
more amenable to connection than other places.
Like, there's no doubt that there's way more potential at the library puzzle swap for
connection than there is at like the McDonald's drive-through.
But I still feel like there is a barrier of politeness or a norm of keeping to yourself
that keeps that potential from being fully realized.
Yeah, and I think the norm of keeping to yourself is only fueled more by things like social
media and being able to look away and be on your phone.
And weirdly during the pandemic, I'm the least social media savvy person of all time.
Like on Facebook, talk to my grandma on there.
That's like the extent of my knowledge.
But I really felt like I needed social media to survive at certain points during the pandemic.
It became the main platform for my social life.
It's interesting how just that shared physical presence with people also doesn't necessarily
mean that we're closer.
Yeah, just because you go to the cafe doesn't mean you're going to look up from your phone.
Yes.
Do you think that to some degree we've replaced our relationship to social infrastructure
with social media?
I think of social media as a communications infrastructure.
It definitely helps us to engage other people.
It's a kind of impoverished social life that it delivers in the end.
Think about how life felt in April of 2020 when we were in the beginning of the pandemic
because we were all in our homes cut off from each other.
We were talking to each other all the time.
We were on FaceTime, we were on Skype.
We talked to everybody we didn't talk to before.
We weren't exactly socially isolated.
We were physically isolated and we were miserable.
That's life where social media is social infrastructure.
I do wonder whether there is an individualism that is also affecting our living choices
and the way that we engage with the social infrastructure.
Can I tell you something amazing?
Please.
I love to be amazed.
I discovered that the United States is a laggard, not a leader when it comes to living
alone.
Being alone is far more common in most European societies than it is in the US.
It's more common in Japan.
It's more common in France and England.
Scandinavian societies have the highest levels of living alone on Earth.
Germany is higher than the United States.
What I learned about doing this research is that what really is driving living alone
is interdependence.
When you have a strong welfare state and you guarantee people the capacity to make ends
meet without being tethered to a partner they might not want to be with.
You give people the choice to live the way that feels best to them at that moment.
Do you think then that the solo livers rely on social infrastructure more?
They do.
They're more likely to go out to bars and restaurants and cafes and to go to gyms, to
go to concerts.
I just published a paper in a journal called Social Problems with a graduate student named
Jenny Lee.
We interviewed 55 people who were living alone in New York during the first stage of the
pandemic.
We talked to them about their experiences and it was really interesting.
They talked very little about social isolation and they didn't complain that much about
kind of conventional loneliness, lacking people to talk to, but they felt physically lonely.
They felt physically isolated and they really missed the familiar strangers we see when
we spend time in a neighborhood, just give us a sense of where we are and that we belong.
They felt a cute kind of pain that was slightly different than the pain of the common conversation
we had at the time.
One of the problems we have now is most cities, suburbs, towns in America have public libraries
there.
There's neighborhood libraries.
The building is there.
The buildings are generally not updated.
They need to have new HVACs, new bathrooms, furniture, let alone new books.
Stomers are still not accessible to people in wheelchairs.
There's all kinds of problems with libraries, just physically because we've under invested
in them.
But libraries unfortunately have become the place of last resort for everyone who falls
through the safety net.
If you wake up in the morning in the American city and you don't have a home, you're told
to go to a library.
If you wake up in the morning and you're suffering from an addiction problem, you need a warm
place.
They'll send you to a library.
If you need to use a bathroom, you'll go to a library.
If you don't have childcare for your kid, you might send your kid to a library.
If you're old and you're alone, you might go to a library.
You've used a library to try to solve all these problems that deserve actual treatment.
How many times have you talked to someone who said, it's basically a homeless shelter?
What's happened is we've stigmatized our public spaces because we've done so little to
address core problems that we've turned them into spaces of last resort for people who
need a hand.
Because we do that, we send another message to affluent middle-class Americans.
That is, if you want a gathering place, build your own in the private sector.
We have a lot of work to do.
If you're always being a crisis center, you don't necessarily have energy for other things.
No.
Librarians are overwhelmed.
They have these superpowers and are capable of helping in all these ways.
If you go and talk to urban library systems, they have more to chew on than they can
possibly get through.
It's really interesting to me to hear about the ways our environment either encourages
or discourages interaction and community building because I think on some level I've always
felt like if I don't have that ideal sense of community that I really want, then it's
my fault for not trying hard enough.
How much of this is just on the government and there's not much we can do besides pestering
alderman?
I think it's on us to build the political institutions that we want and also to build
the public places that we need.
One of the miracles of American life is that we have these public libraries in every neighborhood.
It makes you think, how do we get these things?
If you went to the governor of New York right now, who's a Democrat and calls herself
a progressive and the library didn't exist?
You said, could you build a building in every neighborhood in New York and fill those
buildings with books and videos and computers and comfortable furniture, tell people that
they're welcome five, six, seven days a week in some places.
The buildings are going to be staffed by librarians who are public employees.
People can take the stuff out for free and to make sure they bring it back, we'll use
the honor system.
If we didn't have a library already, if we hadn't invented that, do you think any governor
in America would support that idea?
No chance.
No chance in having it.
Probably part and would do it, but I don't know if they would.
Nobody would support the idea of a library if we didn't already have it.
It's like a utopian socialist fantasy, a library.
The miracle is that we have them.
If you think about the American public park system, the public schools, we built all these
things.
The reason so many of us feel like it's so hard to hang out and enjoy the companionship
of other people is because the signals we get from each other and from the states and
from the corporate world tell us that we're freakish and weird if we want that kind of collective
experience.
Everybody knows happiness is in your phone.
It's at the $22 cocktail bar.
It's at the $9 coffee shop, the $14 ice cream cone.
Those are the things that are supposed to give us pleasure.
I think we need to start to imagine what a different kind of society might look like.
How to rebuild public spaces that are the 21st century version of the 20th century library.
What are the kinds of places we'd like to design so that we could be with each other differently?
Another important piece back to actually finding community in these spaces is people acting
on the opportunity to connect that they present.
It's hard if I'm going to the puzzle swap and no one's talking to each other.
I'm guilty of going in, grabbing my puzzles and getting out and not really making a big
effort to chat and make a new relationship there.
Right.
It's on top of the physical space designed to bring people together.
You also need that culture of mingling and lingering.
Now I'm in the place, the library, wherever it may be.
Now something needs to come after that.
It's hard to feel like you're just taking that on yourself to try to make that happen.
It's also do you see people welcoming you?
Do you feel comfortable going up to someone to strike up a conversation?
Do you see other people mingling?
The design of a place can totally encourage or discourage interactions, but obviously
so can the behavior of the people in the place.
Right.
The friend I made at the cafe is kind of a rare occurrence because normally people in
the cafe are working, reading, or as you've said before, with people they already know.
Yeah.
The social norms of a cafe are going to be different than the social norms of a public
pool or a local sports team or a church in a cafe.
Everyone has different agendas.
Because they're out there making a friend, but some people are just reading a book by
themselves or having that one-on-one lunch with somebody.
In a church, for instance, generally speaking, there's a norm that we want to be in community
with each other.
We have shared values and we're here to connect.
My church has been everything to me.
Because those relationships have just been so transformative and so deep.
Every single highlight of my life or low light, the church, my church has been there for
me.
Kelly Carter Jackson is a historian and a professor from Wellesley College.
We recently spoke about the culture of care in her community.
In her life, she's found that places like the church and her kids' school have smoothed
that path to building those deep relationships of support because both the spaces themselves
and the people in them have been welcoming.
Do you feel like finding a church in the new places where you've moved to?
Has that helped in getting to those deep relationships quickly?
Yes, absolutely.
I will say that when we lived in North Dakota, almost all of my friendships either came
from the military or the church that we were going to.
People were just so warm and so kind.
You would join a Bible study group or a mommy and me group and those became fast friendships.
When my husband was going through extensive training and he was out of town for three
months and I was overwhelmed by three kids.
They did a meal train and just, I hate cooking.
And so my church small group was like, hey, how can we take off some of the burden since
nothing else gone?
And so just to know that people would go that extra mile for you when you're really
taxed is huge.
Yeah.
I guess I see, you know, church is sort of a natural gathering place because it has
those kind of communal values built into the institution.
How does your faith influence your approach to community with your neighbors?
I think that I have always tried to model what it means to be a good neighbor, regardless
of my neighbors' religious affiliations.
I grew up in the church.
So my parents modeled for me hospitality.
We always had people over our house all the time.
We have a big family, one of seven.
So it's like, what's one more?
What's six more?
10 more?
I'm going to run it.
That is how I show my friendship, show my love, show my care.
It is by making you feel welcome and by giving you a place to rest.
And it is not always extend to people we know.
Like we had good friends.
They said, hey, we know this guy.
He's a good guy.
He needs a place to crash for two months.
Yeah, sure.
So like, most people would be like, who was this random guy?
Right.
Right.
But he was actually really nice to his wife and kids.
I love Lee and their dear friends of ours now.
I've always tried to occupy the space of the Good Samaritan and looking out for people
who don't have connection in trying to bring them into the fold.
That's really important for me.
Like I take friendship very seriously.
And the only reason sometimes I feel burdened by new friendships is because I'm like, oh,
I don't know.
I love either way.
I want to love you.
I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait
It's just those little things that let you know that like when you're not around your kids that there are other people that are giving them care that are giving them space that are listening to them and affirming their feelings, they're really big feelings that most kindergartners cannot articulate most adults can't articulate I am always overwhelmed by just like the goodness of neighbors and people's capacity to provide comfort during hard times
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low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low
It's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it
is really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's
really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really
low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low
it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it's really low, it
really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really
really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really
really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really
really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really
really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really
really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really low, it really
