Hey, weirdos.
I'm Alayna.
I'm Ash.
And this is Morbid.
Morbido in the house.
Morbid.
What the fuck is up, Kyle?
So much is up.
So much is up, in fact.
So much is up.
But you know what?
There was a brief reprieve of joy there.
There you go.
Because I got to go to the ghost concert.
Like you said, it's important to experience joy right now.
It is.
Enjoy the things that make you happy.
You're allowed to.
And it will keep us all sane so that we can fight.
Fight.
Rage against the machine.
You need it.
You need a little bit of your cup filled or you're going to be running on empty.
It's the same as parenting.
You need to fill your own cup to be a better parent.
Of course.
So just like try to do that.
But yeah, I got to go to the Ghost concert in Connecticut and it was as magical as it always is.
I love that.
And I got to meet some of you and you were awesome.
Shout out to Deb and Bonnie and Chelsea.
Listen, look at you.
I said... She's famously bad at remembering names.
I will forget some... And it has nothing to do with the importance of the person.
Of course not.
I am just like, my brain doesn't work this way.
And I will, as I'm talking to the person, forget the name they just told me.
Yeah.
Because I'm so... I'm so focused on...
Having a conversation for me is like a lot.
I think you have ADHD.
Yeah, there's a lot happening in here.
Like in this brain.
So, like I Like there's a lot going on that makes it different.
So i'm so concentrated on like the conversation aspect and like, be a normal human, ask questions, respond correctly that i forget the name.
Nobody wants you to be a normal human and that for that i'm grateful, because i'm not, and it's really hard to be and sometimes i struggle.
So just be cool, don't be all uncool.
Well not, i was like you know what, don't forget the name because you're concentrating on trying to like become a real human.
So I said remember these names because they were cool people.
And they were cool people.
You were cool people.
And it was really fun to see you.
And I love seeing people at ghost concerts that listen to Morbid, because it's such like a snuggly little family feeling at those concerts.
I love that.
I don't know.
It was fun.
And I think Deb told me, like the Deb that I met.
Oh, yeah.
Not Deb Deb.
Not Deb Deb.
Although I did bring Deb Deb to her first ghost concert.
I'm so sad.
It was pretty amazing.
Obviously, like, I like concerts.
I agree.
Yeah.
We talked about this where they lock up your phones.
It's just nice to not have to see a million phones in the air.
Oh, it's amazing.
But I so wish that you could have gotten a little bit of video of Deb at the concert.
Just like mid-concert.
Yes.
Yeah, she loved it.
I love that.
We got a convert.
But Deb, the not Deb Deb, who I met, said that she found morbid through ghost.
Wow.
So the other way around.
Oh, shit.
Which I, my biggest flex in life is when somebody says.
Yeah.
I heard about Ghost from your podcast.
Like that is becoming a door-to-door missionary for Ghost is really great.
It's going both ways.
But now that it went the other way, I was like, whoa, we've reached a new apex.
Because they said they heard the Tobias episode like one of the interviews and were like I'm going to listen to this.
That's next level.
I was like, wow.
Flex.
Okay.
I like it.
Let's go.
It was great though.
She gave me a bracelet that says rats on it.
Oh, it's like the Erestor.
Yep.
Erestor.
Oh, they had a bracelet making station in the VIP area.
But like a gothy, gothy-fied one.
A little goth bracelet making station.
I love that.
Did you make a bracelet?
I did.
And then I broke it accidentally because I'm not that crafty with bracelets.
It was just so full of joy.
It was a joyful time.
It was honestly, it's the most joyful time.
They were great.
Everybody was great.
Shout out to all of them.
And shout out to their team for always hooking us up.
I know their team is very sweet.
The seats were fucking amazing.
I felt so like grateful.
I was like, shit, I just get to be here.
So Mohegan Sun is the randomest concert venue, in my opinion, but it's such a good concert venue.
It is.
I saw Stevie Nicks there and I felt like we were best friends.
Living is so intimate.
It's very intimate.
No matter where you're sitting, really.
Yeah, it really is.
And shout out to everybody there and especially the band, because I was like.
It was 400 degrees in that place.
It was so fucking hot.
Well, because it's, like, all enclosed.
And then Ghost has, like... Holy shit.
There was pyrotechnics.
There was fire at times.
But you could see... And he... I think Tobias mentioned it, like, several times.
Like, holy shit, I'm hot.
Like, it was hot.
Because he also has, like, all the, like, prosthetics on his face, too.
He doesn't have prosthetics anymore, but he has that mask.
And...
Anything on your face.
The costume changes are a lot of clothing.
I felt like the nameless ghouls are all wearing like full body suits.
Oh my God.
And I was like, I felt so bad.
And they're just moving a lot and doing a lot.
Yeah, that's exerting like a lot of energy.
I was sweating and I know everybody else was, so I can't imagine how they felt.
But they've fucking killed it.
That's one thing I love about winter so much.
Every time I complain about being cold, I'm like, oh, I'm not sweating though.
I'm not sweating.
I'm not sweating.
Because I hate being hot.
It's the worst feeling in the world.
But it was great.
It was a great time.
I love that.
I'm glad you had fun.
I highly recommend it if you can get to one.
I think they're in like Canada now though.
All right.
We'll go to Canada.
I say that like no one's in Canada.
I was like they're in Canada now so you can't go.
People in fact are leaving here and going there.
So if you're in Canada, go.
Go.
If you can.
Go.
It's a great time.
I was trying to think of something canadian to say about, like going to ghost, but hey, there you go.
Always say you know hey, we love canada, go to ghost day, we love canadian ghost, you know, shout out to jordan nighttime podcast.
Sorry, all the canadians, we love you, love jordan.
Famous uh, famous.
Teacher of uh oh at sunnydale.
Yep, we love johnny and tyler.
That's spooky.
Listen, that's spooky.
Yeah, Canadians are great.
I love that.
What else do we have?
I thought we had something else to say.
I haven't been doing a lot lately.
The only thing that I have to offer you today is that I put my laptop on my lap this morning and I said what the fuck is that lump on my leg?
And I promptly flipped over my laptop and found a crushed baby bell cheese wrapper on the bottom of my laptop.
And I looked up at Elena and I said, I'm disgusting.
And I said, I'm a peanut butter baby.
It was just – how did it, like, become one with my computer like that?
It was nuts.
I was like, you are reckless.
No, it really was.
One thing about me – You're a reckless person.
I'm a very – like, don't think I'm gross.
Don't get it twisted.
Because I – don't get it twisted.
I'm a very clean person at my house.
Like, my home is very tidy.
Yeah.
Here, not at all.
No.
This couch that I'm sitting – look at this.
Yeah.
There's just shit everywhere.
Like –
What are these rogue napkins?
Why is a phone in the middle of the cushion seats?
Chapstick?
Just a random package of chapstick?
We all need that right now.
And then don't even look in this corner next to me.
This empty glass from three days ago?
Don't worry, it was just filled with water.
But what the fuck?
What is wrong with me?
It's pretty intense.
I don't live here, so.
Yeah, you know, I do, but it's closed off.
Not in this room.
I don't live in this room.
I would respect your space.
Appreciate it in a home way.
It's true.
Yeah, you know, it's just one of those things, you know?
It is.
It really is.
And if you're looking for more joy, maybe you could preorder my book.
Oh, more joy.
More joy.
More literacy.
More literacy.
Footwork.
Oh, yes.
Do it.
Butcherlegacy.com.
Pre-order it.
It's coming out August 11th.
It's the third one in the series.
You can grab The Butcher and the Ren and the Butcher Game 2 if you want to.
Give it a try.
There's audiobooks for those two.
There will be an audiobook for the third one.
Barnes & Noble has signed versions.
Barnes & Noble has exclusive signed copies.
I'm currently signing a ton of them.
I saw them at your front door.
There's big boxes of sheets to sign, so I'm on it.
You better start rolling those wrists out.
And I'll, you know, I'll sign as many books as I can.
So if you want those signed copies, guys, go get them from Barnes & Noble.
And if they run out.
She'll probably do more.
Maybe I'll sign some more, but you got to get them to run out first.
Here's the thing.
Me and Mikey are always yelling at Elena because we're always like, you put so much on your plate.
Anytime signed editions run out and they're like, do you want to do 2,000 more?
She's like, yeah, that's no problem.
Yes, I do.
You have to sign everything.
All of those.
Yeah.
I respect the game.
I'll always sign them up.
I respect the hustle.
Always.
Anytime.
So yeah, go do that because it's great and it's fun and it's fictional.
It is fictional.
So lose yourself in a fictional world.
And also again, I got to shout out fucking Phantasma, the book I'm reading right now.
It's so fun.
Really?
I'm telling you guys, read it.
It's a fun book.
It's getting me into like a new genre, I think.
I'm in a place of new genre, but we're in very different places of new genre.
Yeah, mine's still horror related.
Mine's not at all.
I'm fully in a romance era right now.
I'm reading a lot of... I love that for you.
I'm reading a lot of Emily Henry.
I think she's fucking great.
Hey, look at that.
Shout out to Emily Henry.
I'm reading Happy Place right now.
It's a little spicy.
Oh, there you go.
I've never been a spicy book reader in my life.
I love that for you.
I know.
Phantasma is very spicy.
Well, dark, dark spice.
Yeah.
It's like dark romantic-y horror adjacent.
Fun.
Yeah.
I like that.
Yeah.
I'm all over the place in my reading journey, but it's fun.
Yeah.
Um, one more very quick thing before we move on.
I need to tell you that you, you did something weird when you mentioned center stage.
Oh yeah.
Um, on the pit, I think it's episode three, which I've been telling Elena to watch the pit.
It's so good, but she has kids, so it's hard to watch shows.
I know.
It's just one, it's on the list.
It's also a very intense show to watch at night.
And I understand that you don't, you're not like flying into it.
Yeah.
One of the actresses from Center Stage was like a side character.
What the fuck?
For literally like the briefest moment.
What?
Yeah.
I was listening to Sup this morning.
Carrie was talking about it.
Why did Center Stage suddenly become – is it Jodi in Center Stage?
Jodi, yeah.
She's the main character.
Yeah.
I haven't seen Center Stage in like years.
That's the girl you're following.
So what's that actress, Jodi, Center Stage –
Amanda Schull.
Yeah.
She was just randomly in the pit.
Holy shit.
Like a super quick appearance.
That's so weird.
And it probably was right around the time that you said you watched it, because it was last week's episode.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
That's really weird.
Isn't that bizarre?
Yeah.
When I listened to stuff this morning, I was like, oh my God, I have to tell Elena that.
Why is center stage suddenly... It's weird when that...
Things like that.
It locks up like that.
It makes you feel like life is a simulation.
It does feel like that a lot because I'm like, what the fuck?
Center stage?
Yeah.
Again, I highly recommend watching those old ass movies from the 90s and early aughts.
Do it up.
Early in your mornings while lighting candles.
I walked in this morning and she was watching Scream.
Yeah, I had Scream on.
Classic.
While I was like trying to write a chapter.
Let's go.
In something.
What?
Yeah.
That's all she can say.
I said elaborate, except I know you can't.
One more thing before we get into the story.
Fuck ice, abolish ice.
Yes, fuck ice.
Thank you so much.
And yeah, stop defending them like they're your mom.
Yeah, it's weird.
So that's just how we feel.
Thank you.
And it's our podcast, so we can say it.
So, yeah.
So, fuck ice.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Also, fuck real ice because it's really icy here as well.
Oh, my God.
Fuck all the ice.
I didn't even tell you it was so embarrassing.
I ate shit in my driveway the other day.
I have a booty bruise.
I went down hard on my butt.
Wow.
Like, because it was, there was.
You fall often in the winter.
I feel like every winter you fall.
Bitch, take out in the winter.
I fall often.
I fell the other day in my little garden.
I'm always worried for you in the winter.
It's okay.
I'm going to be one of those old people that they're like, yeah, she just fell.
She wasn't drunk.
She wasn't on a substance.
We're going to have to keep a close eye on you when you're older.
I know i'm gonna get a walker as soon as i turn 60, maybe 50.
We're gonna have to watch those hips.
Yeah well, this one, this one was just like it was gonna.
It could have happened to anybody really, because there was ice underneath the snow.
Oh, that fucks me up every time i went to walk around the side of the car.
That's the other thing.
I could have hit my dome on the back of the car, but i was all right.
Oh, I'm glad you lived through it.
One thing about me I fucking love when other people fall, but I also love when I fall, so it works out.
You can appreciate it.
So yes, fuck all kinds of ice, but specifically the organization.
All right.
So we're actually, this is an interesting case that I hadn't heard of before.
It was obviously a Dave suggestion.
Dave?
This is a very devastating case, obviously, because it's morbid.
Yes.
But it's just interesting that I hadn't heard about this before, because it's kind of like big time a little bit.
Big time?
It's like medium time a little bit.
Medium time.
Okay.
It's just, you know, we'll get there.
So we're going to be talking about the Hitman murders, which involve Lawrence and Millie Horn.
Okay. who you might not know, but you'll be shocked that you don't know them maybe.
Yeah.
So in the 1960s and 70s, Lawrence Horne worked as an audio engineer for some of the music industry's biggest record labels, like Motown Records and Hot Wax Records.
Wow.
Which is like huge.
Yeah.
Motown Records was massive.
Damn.
So during the golden age of like, funk and RB, his name appeared in the credits of some of the era's biggest hits, like The Temptations' My Girl.
My girl.
My girl.
My girl.
Talking about my girl.
We just paused to sing the entire song.
I was just so tempted to continue on.
It's such a vibey song.
It is.
Well, you can thank Lawrence for part of it.
He was also in the credits of Junior Walker and the All-Star Shotgun.
Damn.
I'm not familiar with that song.
I can't sing that one.
Okay.
But behind his fame and notoriety he was hiding a sometimes very volatile personality that few rarely got to see.
Okay.
But before we get into that, let's talk about who he was in his earlier life.
Let's go.
He was born April 18th, 1940 in Detroit.
One of two children born to Pauline Horn.
When he was born, his mom was running a modeling school in Detroit and she worked with a lot of the local performers to develop their musical and dance talents.
So his kind of like, like the industry was in his blood.
Yeah, I was going to say this was just like from the jump.
Yeah.
Years later, Pauline's daughter Elaine, would follow in her mother's footsteps, going after a career in dance and eventually traveling with her husband, famous ventriloquist William Tyler, who apparently had a popular act with a dummy named Lester.
I'm interested.
Lester the dummy?
Lester the dummy.
Okay.
A ventriloquist act will get me sometimes.
Yeah.
It will get me because it has such a spooky vibe to it.
It does.
Always.
Even when it's not spooky.
Yeah, it's just there.
Something about it is spooky.
And it's also just incredible that people can fully project without moving their mouth.
I don't understand how they do it.
I don't either.
That's why I think that's what it is.
It's like something mysterious and like mystical.
Yeah.
And feels like it shouldn't be happening.
Yes.
All of the above.
Correct.
Well, after graduating from high school in 1958, Lawrence did a brief stint in the Navy, and that's where he actually trained in radio communications.
And he got experience working as a radio man on the aircraft carrier, the USS Lake Champlain.
So when he returned home in the early 60s, Detroit had become one of the hottest cities in America.
The auto industry provided hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs.
And black workers at this time couldn't really expect a great wage most places.
But in the auto industry, they could expect a nice wage.
So fresh out of the Navy, Lawrence did need a job.
But like I said, he came from a family with strong roots in the entertainment industry.
So life on the assembly line and auto plants really wasn't what he was looking for.
Yeah, he was looking to get into the industry.
Exactly.
But luckily, cars were not the only thing that Detroit had become known for while he was away.
As the home of Motown Records, it had also, at this point, become a hub for like soul and rhythm and blues singers, and for black artists in particular.
So, according to Lawrence, he managed to land the job with Motown Records based on his experience as a DJ on the Champlain, where he was known by the moniker LT the tall, cool one.
Your man with the plan.
That just rolls off the tongue.
I said that's suave as fuck.
That is suave as fuck.
You got to like tighten it up a little bit.
Yeah.
But it's suave.
I'll give you that.
Does it need a little trimming?
Maybe.
Maybe.
But it honestly sounds great.
You kind of have to decide between like the tall, cool one and your man with the plan.
Yeah.
You can be both those things, but maybe just leave one to the imagination.
Yeah, exactly.
What would you pick?
Probably you should pick the man with the plan, because that's an inner thing that people don't know yet.
The tall, cool one, I can see that right away.
Yeah, you can give that off.
You don't have to tell me that.
You can give off that energy.
Yeah.
If I see a tall, cool man, I know that.
And, as a DJ, the man with the plan, like he's got a plan for this fucking ox that's about to blow your mind apart.
You better get ready.
Sit down.
So in 1962, Motown wasn't as huge as it would become in later years.
It was actually really just a small recording studio in the garage of company president Barry Gordy.
That's awesome.
So Gordy was willing to take a risk on Lawrence at this point.
And he also, Lawrence got the reference of a friend of his mom.
So Gordy hired him as an audio technician at $50 a week, which back then was a good chunk of change.
So within two years, Motown Records had become a music industry giant.
They moved right out of that garage.
They had The Temptations, Martha and the Vandellas, The Supremes, Smokey Robinson.
Jesus.
Ever heard of them?
A stacked lineup.
Truly.
And they were all just scoring hit after hit after hit for the label.
So as the label grew, obviously so did Lawrence Sohorn's bank account and his reputation.
Yeah.
In their heyday, there were, quote, unlimited expense accounts and trips to New York.
Very gaudy.
It was the Plaza Hotel, limos Porsches, Dom Perignon Perignon, I don't know how you say that and a company card.
Damn.
They were living.
That sounds lit.
They were fucking living.
They were filthy rich.
Limos, Porsches, Dom Perignon, Perignon.
So for Lawrence, who'd grown up the poor son of a modeling instructor and a baker, that success was obviously intoxicating.
Yeah, of course.
For anybody, really.
Anybody could lose themselves in that.
Yes, very much so.
So in 1966?
This is wild.
And as soon as I got to this part of the story I said I can't wait to see Elena's reaction to this.
So in 1966, he marries Juana Royster, who was a receptionist at Motown.
Cute.
In what turned out to be a surprise ceremony, even to the bride.
Juana literally had no idea.
She had no idea.
Lawrence planned the entire ceremony without telling her.
And when she came back home and walked into her rec room, she found herself standing in the middle of her own wedding.
Say it.
Say it, girl.
No, here... I...
I just – I'm just thinking of me.
I would not like this.
I'm a control freak.
This would stress me out in a way I can't describe.
Yeah.
But I think a person with more handle over everything about themselves would take this as like a fun – this is like his fun personality like doing this.
It's a toss-up.
Yeah.
So I'm just not that woman.
No, me either.
I'm not that woman, but I wish I was.
I wish I could take this.
I wish I was the kind of person that would look at that and be like, how fun and fancy free.
But I'm not.
No.
One thing about me, you're a Capricorn.
Like on the spectrum.
Yeah, very much so.
I just can't.
No.
I couldn't take this.
You're a planner.
This would stress me out.
Like I'd be like I should have had control of every part of this.
The biggest thing for me would be my outfit.
Yeah.
Because I curate my fucking outfit months ahead of an event.
She does.
That is true.
And I would not be happy if I just rolled up there in my work wear to my own fucking wedding.
Yeah.
And like there's certain people that like, maybe I wouldn't want to invite that were there, or like, perhaps the other way around.
Yeah.
I'd like to curate the food.
I'd like to curate the decor.
Basically everything about it should be curated.
Yeah.
And I'm a good curator so I'd be pissed.
Yeah.
It's true.
And I just like to know what's happening.
Yeah.
I don't love a surprise.
No.
No.
Well, I like a surprise.
I can handle small surprises, but I can't handle a big one.
I don't like a surprise wedding.
No, that's a big surprise.
That's wild.
Yeah.
A gamble.
But it worked out.
Talking about Lawrence later, she said he was absolutely fun.
Oh, see, she gets it.
She gets it.
That's what I'm like.
That props to her.
Yeah.
She said he's a man with a plan.
And honestly, she's someone who probably I'm like good for you because you're probably so much less tightly wound.
Yeah.
She's lighter.
She's breezy.
Let's go.
She's breezy as fuck.
Let life come at you.
Let it.
Good for her.
Although he might have been fun, that was probably short-lived and it wasn't enough to keep their relationship together, because the marriage ended in divorce after just about eight months.
I mean, it's the surprise wedding.
Yeah, it's the surprise wedding and probably the volatile personality.
From my point of view, that would not be good.
Yeah, no.
So two years later in 1968, Lawrence actually left Motown when it was at its peak.
And he took a job as an engineer with the legendary Motown production team Holland Dozier Holland, who were splitting with Gordy and starting their own company.
A little messy.
Yeah.
Ooh.
And their own company was going to be Hot Wax Records and then its subsidiary was going to be Invictus Records.
Oh, yeah.
So the label was hampered by an ongoing lawsuit between the trio of songwriters and Barry Gordy, who was like you can't just leave my fucking shit and expect that I'm not going to sue you.
Yep.
But they did still find success with a string of singles and records by singers like Frida Payne and the legendary funk group Parliament.
A lot of that success was due, in part at least, to the talents of their star engineer Lawrence Horne, who stayed with the record for most of the 70s actually.
Damn.
Now, in 72, Lawrence met Millie Marie, who was a flight attendant with American Airlines, and he was immediately infatuated with her.
Oh yeah, it's the 70s and she's a flight attendant.
I mean, what more could you ask for?
That's glam.
That's eleganza, baby.
So they dated briefly, and in 1973 they got married.
But according to author Rodney Smala, whose book we'll link in the show notes, he said virtually from the start the marriage was a rollercoaster.
Which is not really what you're looking for in marriage.
No, definitely not me.
I'm not looking for that.
Steady.
Yeah, I don't like a roller coaster.
Steady Eddie.
I love a roller coaster.
I don't want a marriage roller coaster.
Lawrence recalled the early days of their romance as a freewheeling whirl.
Whoa.
Which is so, that just like.
It's very 70s.
It's so Motown too.
I'm like, wow, write a song about that.
It seemed that, even though they had gone through the formality of actually having a wedding and binding themselves together like that, Lawrence did not take the relationship very seriously.
He said, it was a lark.
It wasn't a love thing.
It was more of an arrangement.
It was a distraction.
It was fun.
Okay.
It wasn't a love thing?
I was like, marriage should... Why'd you bother?
Hot take.
Marriage should always be a love thing.
Yeah.
Like, why did you bother?
Like, you don't have to get married.
That's the thing.
You guys could have had a lark.
You could have.
You could have had a fun little arrangement on the side where you just get together when you see each other.
That's okay.
A marriage is not a lark.
You're two consenting adults.
Right.
You don't need to add paperwork into it.
That's the thing.
I just never understand that.
Don't write up a contract if you're just trying to have an adventure.
Like, you don't have to get married.
You really don't.
If you don't want to, that's your prerogative.
Yeah.
I just don't understand.
I never understand these things.
I have no idea.
Because it seems like a lot of work and paperwork because marriage takes a lot of paperwork.
So much paperwork.
You have to like hold up your left hand and shit.
So then be like, well, I don't really take this seriously.
It's like, then why the fuck did you sign all those papers?
Yeah.
You had to go to town hall.
Yeah.
You had to file like so many more papers.
You have to sign a lot.
You have to do admin.
It's too much work if you're not totally committed.
Marriage is in fact a lot of admin.
Yeah.
I never get it.
And then if you want to change your name, don't even get me started.
Oh, fuck that.
So, regardless of how it all started or why they stayed together in the first place, Millie gave birth to their first daughter Tiffany, in 1974.
That feels serious.
That's not just a lark.
Unfortunately, though, the arrival of a baby didn't do a lot to improve things between them.
Never does.
No, in fact, it adds stress.
Yeah, it's going to get worse.
So, with his work also now requiring him to travel more and more often to Los Angeles, Millie was left alone a lot to care for Tiffany.
And that can be a lot like in general, but especially as a first time mom, I can't imagine.
Of course.
That was obviously a problem in and of itself.
But by that time, things had already started to deteriorate between the two of them.
And according to Lawrence, they just constantly fought over the least little thing, he said.
Yeah.
Yeah, in 1975 millie was like i am so fucking tired of arguing with you all the time, i'm so tired of you being gone when we're not arguing.
Yeah, so they separated and she ended up moving to washington dc to live closer to her sisters.
Her, she and her sisters were like super, super close, love that.
And when she moved there, lawrence decided like i'm gonna actually move to la, so i'm not going back and forth all the time.
Now, despite the separation, because they very much were separated in the distance, Millie and Lawrence they didn't divorce and they really didn't break up at all.
Like I don't even really know if you would call this a separation, or it doesn't look like your typical separation.
I'll say
In the 10 years that followed, they got back together.
They broke up.
They got back together countless times.
And they actually even held multiple wedding ceremonies where they renewed their vows.
Oh man.
So like what?
This is just a lot.
It's messy.
It's a lot.
So things between them would inevitably fall apart though within a few months or years.
They'd separate again for a time get back together and the cycle just continued and continued.
Oh that sounds horrible.
It does.
Later Lauren said I never knew what to expect from Millie.
It was like a roller coaster.
It was difficult being in a close personal relationship with her.
You don't have to be.
That's the thing.
Like that That wasn't required.
You guys did bring a child into the world, so you kind of tied yourself together.
Hey, you segued me perfect to the next part.
Oh, hey.
In 1984, during one of the periods when they were back together, Millie got pregnant for a second time.
Oh, guys, you got to stop.
And in August, she gave birth to twins, Trevor and twins.
Holy shit.
And it's complicated.
She had twins, Trevor and Tamiel, 12 weeks premature.
Tamiel spent a month in the hospital before she was deemed stable enough to come home.
But Trevor's condition was a lot more complicated.
Because he was born premature, his lungs were underdeveloped.
And that led, obviously, to chronic respiratory issues.
That was always my fear.
Yeah, it's scary.
It is very scary.
Eventually, he was allowed to go home with his mom.
But in the year that followed, he was in and out of the hospital with breathing problems.
That is so stressful.
Yeah.
And then you add that very stressful, very real situation into a very complicated marriage.
Yeah, that is treated as not very.
It's just a lot.
Yeah.
It's a lot of just sadness and stress and a lot.
Yeah.
So the birth of the twins and the complicated care that they required was just one more incredible strain on the relationship.
But in 1985, things turned from bad to worse.
During a stay at Children's Hospital in DC that September, Trevor's breathing tube accidentally came out.
Oh my God.
And it took the hospital staff almost an hour and a half to get it back in place.
What the fuck?
The prolonged lack of oxygen caused severe brain damage, and it left Trevor a quadriplegic.
Oh.
Circumstances that would very much require lifetime round-the-clock care and assistance.
Oh my god.
Lawrence said that situation broke the back.
The relationship never recovered from that.
Even healthy relationships that could.
That could break it absolutely.
You know like that kind of stuff is horrific.
It is.
So at the end of 1986 millie finally filed for divorce, which initiated a very long and very messy custody battle.
Oh god, and in the midst of all this, in the midst of all that, In 1987 the divorce was finalized and they were awarded joint custody, but Lawrence was ordered to pay monthly child support.
By that time he had left Invictus and was working as an independent contractor.
But he eventually actually went back to Motown looking for more stability and a reliable paycheck.
I'm actually shocked they took him back.
I know.
After leaving to like start an offshoot project.
Yeah.
But unfortunately trends in the music industry had changed and Motown wasn't quite the powerhouse that it had been.
And by the mid-'80s most of the label's biggest stars weren't very popular anymore and they were struggling to find new acts to fill in those gaps.
In 1988, Motown ended up being sold to a larger company and Lawrence stayed for a little while as a tape librarian.
He got $28,000 per year, which is $76,000 in 2026.
Wow.
The salary was a very far cry from what he was used to.
Very different.
The money, the glamour, the Porsches, the Dom Perignon, all of it.
But it did pay his bills.
It allowed him to keep up with his child support payments.
So he was doing all right.
But that same year, the Horns filed a malpractice suit against the hospital.
And they were awarded nearly $3 million in damages.
Oh, wow.
Rightfully so.
Yeah.
$2.3 million was awarded to Trevor, $322,000 to Mildred, and $125,000 to Lawrence.
Wow.
But over the course of that year Lawrence blew through all of his money that he got from the settlement.
Jesus.
Almost all of it went to lawyer fees from the ongoing legal battle with Millie.
Then in 1990, he was dealt another blow when he was fired from Motown Records.
Neither Lawrence Horn nor Motown has ever publicly provided an in-depth reasoning for the firing.
Lawrence just blamed politics.
Interesting.
So nobody really knows what happened there.
I wonder what that was about.
I have no idea.
But in the three years that followed his bills started to pile up more and more and Millie's child support payments stopped coming.
By December of 1992 he owed his lawyers more than 65000 and he had fallen 16000 behind in his child support payments.
In that same month a Montgomery County judge ordered him to immediately pay the overdue child support or he was going to be in some serious fucking trouble.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's move on to the murders that we're going to talk about, because she was a working single mother with two other children and the extent of Trevor's needs was so great.
Millie ended up hiring a nurse, 38-year-old Janice Saunders, and that was to help care for Trevor, obviously.
Yeah.
Janice graduated from Montgomery College with a nursing degree in 1983 and she had been working very steadily ever since.
In 1993, she lived with her husband, Michael, and their three-year-old son, Colin, in Virginia.
And that meant that she commuted an hour and a half each way to Millie's house and back home.
So she was dedicated to her job.
Yeah.
In the early morning hours of March 3rd 1993, Janice was working overnight in the Horn House and she was staying up while Millie slept.
Millie had worked late that night.
To pass the time, Janice was working on a cross stitch from a pattern which was her fifth piece in the pattern.
It was called The Parade.
At around 230 in the morning the phone rang and Millie still half asleep answered and her daughter Tiffany, was on the other end calling from college.
Tiffany was like, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to call you, I meant to call somebody else.
And they both said goodnight, and Millie hung up and went back to sleep.
Somewhere in the next two hours, while Janice was in Trevor's bedroom working on her cross stitch and, you know, listening for any signs of trouble or disturbances in Trevor's breathing a man entered the house through the garage door, which was the only door in the house that wasn't locked.
The only door in the house that wasn't locked.
Fuck.
This man was armed with a silenced AR-722 caliber rifle and he crept through the house until he found Trevor's room.
It's unknown whether or not Janice ever saw her killer.
He stood several feet away from her and opened fire, striking her twice in the head and once through her eye socket.
Oh my god.
That bullet penetrated her brain which killed her instantly.
Holy shit.
This is a lot, just so everybody knows, obviously.
No.
Eight years.
Oh.
But either the man didn't know that or he just wanted to opt for a more brutal death.
He placed one hand over the tracheostomy opening in Trevor's throat and one hand over his mouth and nose, and he smothered Trevor to death.
That is fucking evil.
It's diabolical.
Holy shit.
So the distressed and eventual end of Trevor's breathing set off the alarm on the medical monitor and the noise woke up Millie, who jumped out of bed and obviously ran toward her son's room.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Later that morning, just after 7 a.m., Millie's sister, Vivian, drove over to Millie's house.
The night before, like I said, Millie had worked late.
Yeah.
And Vivian agreed to watch Tammy L at her house while Millie was away.
So she was coming back to drop off Tammy L. Oh, my goodness.
I was wondering about Tammy L. Yeah.
So Janice, meanwhile, stayed at the Horn house, like I just said, to care for Trevor.
When Vivian initially drove up to the house planning to drop off Tamielle, she was surprised to find that the garage door was open, and she could see that the door that led from the garage to the family room was also ajar.
This was very unusual, because both Millie and Janice were super vigilant about locking doors and making sure everything was closed up.
One door was unlocked.
And as soon as she got out of the car, Vivian heard the sound of the medical monitor's alarm.
And she later told police.
It only went off when there was no breath sounds transmitted to the machines.
This is horrific.
It's awful.
So Vivian didn't need to know the details.
The sound of the alarm was enough to know that something, like there was an emergency here.
Yeah.
Just what's the point of her to do?
To not go inside.
To not go inside, not.
Not touch anything.
Because again, she's in charge of this other child right now.
Yes.
So she's like, I need to keep my wits about me.
Exactly.
So when they both got back to the horn house a few minutes later, they tried to enter through the front door, but the door seemed to be blocked by something on the other side and neither of them could get it to budge.
Unable to get in that way, vivian went to a nearby window and peered inside to see what was blocking the door.
And that's when she saw her sister lying on the floor and she said, quote with half of her face blown off, oh my god.
The sight of her sister's body was obviously shocking, and once they realized that she had clearly been killed, neither woman went inside, deciding that they just needed to wait in the car for the police to get there.
Yeah, So police and emergency responders got there a few minutes later, made their way inside and obviously found all three bodies.
The medical examiner also arrived a short time later.
And after a cursory examination he obviously concluded that all three deaths were the result of homicide.
The cause of death for Millie and Janice was very obvious.
But Trevor's cause of death, while obviously the result of asphyxia was a little less obvious upon first look.
At first the medical examiner assumed that the death had been caused off by the turning off of the medical equipment.
But later, after the investigation was finished and he was able to do a more thorough exam, the cause of death was changed to manual suffocation.
That's so horrific.
And it's an eight-year-old little boy who literally is unable to breathe on his own.
And you look at these, like if you look at pictures of, like Millie and Trevor and Janice, like they all look like such sweet people.
They do.
Millie was beautiful.
Millie was beautiful.
Those kids are adorable.
Oh, they're the cutest.
And Janice looks like the sweetest woman.
Yeah, she's just got that like kind of face.
And she dedicated her life to this.
She drove an hour and a half each way to just go take care of Trevor.
And she's a mother.
And she's a mother.
Yeah.
She spent nights there when she needed to.
Like, this was a lot.
Horrible.
So according to Vivian, who had been in the home countless times prior to that day obviously it's her sister things did look like they'd been disturbed, she said, but not overly so.
Investigators obviously considered the homicides might have been the result of a robbery gone wrong, but they moved on from that theory once they got through their search of the home.
According to court records, investigation of the Horn residents disclosed that only a few areas of the home had been disturbed.
In the living room.
A rug and a side table looked like they'd been moved, the couch cushions had been removed and thrown on the floor and everything inside Millie's purse had been strewn out like thrown all over the living room, but nothing seemed like it was missing.
And then elsewhere in the house.
Other rugs looked like they'd been kicked aside as an intruder walked by, and a few other pieces of furniture were toppled over.
But even though it looked like the house had been ransacked to the detectives it was quote in a cursory way that gave the appearance of having been staged.
Yeah it's very clear.
Yeah.
In fact, for all the mess in the house, other than Millie's missing credit card and her check cashing card, nothing seemed to have been taken.
And as they walked through the scene, investigators did notice several valuable items just sitting in plain view.
There was Millie's five-carat diamond bracelet just out right there.
Yeah, you're not going to leave that.
There was a lot of other jewelry, too.
Several electronics and Janice Saunders' jewelry and purse were also found in the house, with all of the contents undisturbed.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So, based on the brutality of the murders, the absence of the evidence of sexual assault and the fact that nothing of value really had been taken, investigators were left with only one theory
Whoever broke into Millie Horn's house obviously did so with the intention of killing everybody in there.
Wow.
But who would want to kill two women and a severely disabled child?
That's what can't... I'm like, you have to be such a fucked up individual.
Absolutely.
Like, that's beyond...
Absolutely you do.
So Detective Chris Wittenberg was put in charge of the case, and his thorough search of the crime scene appeared to support the belief that everything looked like it was staged.
But it was not in fact a robbery.
And he found some more evidence to that.
In the basement.
One of the window screens had been pulled away and there were pry marks on the frame.
But the killer didn't enter the house that way.
It was clear.
Yeah.
On the back deck.
The weather stripping on the doors leading into the home had been punctured, which would have allowed access to the deadbolts that secured the doors.
And either of these would have been an easy access point into the house, but neither again was the way that the killer got inside.
Yeah.
And it seemed like they were made to look like they'd been tried and eventually abandoned.
Unfortunately, beyond the obvious setup, there wasn't much evidence to be found.
Later that day though, some joggers did find Millie's missing credit cards scattered along the side of the road not that far from the house.
So nobody even used the credit cards.
I was going to say, so they didn't even take them.
So the fact that they'd been taken and immediately discarded was even more evidence that this was never about robbery.
Yeah.
Other than that too, a trigger from an AR-7 was found in the woods a few weeks later by K-9 units, but the serial number had been filed off.
Which makes you think it's professional.
Absolutely.
And then this is crazy.
I don't think I've heard of this in a case that we've talked about.
Maybe you can remember this.
Nearby, investigators also found a rat tail file with traces of gunpowder on it, and detectives thought that it had been used to scour the barrel of the gun to obscure striation patterns which, if you're not familiar, I wasn't.
Striation patterns are microscopic marks left behind on bullets and cartridge cases.
They're like fingerprints.
They're literally like fingerprints and it's when they're fired from a gun.
But somebody had taken that rat tail file to fuck with them.
That's literally – I took a ballistics class.
That must have been fascinating.
Like an anthropology class and part of it was ballistics.
Yeah.
And that was one of the things we learned about.
And to scour that off – is like filing off fingerprints, right.
It's like firing filing off your own fingerprints after you've left them out of scene so they can't trace them right, it's the same thing, which is not.
They find those quote-unquote fingerprint striations on that bullet right, they would be able to match it to that barrel, right.
But if you scour that off, there's no way to do it and that's professional, very much so.
Like what?
The isn't that crazy?
Yeah i, i feel like we haven't talked about.
Talked a lot about striation patterns, but that's interesting.
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting stuff with ballistics.
You've gotten into it like a few times.
I always find that stuff really interesting.
That must have been a cool class.
It was a really cool class.
Now, so that's fucking crazy.
But in the absence of most evidence, Detective Wittenberg and his team decided to focus all their attention at this point on a possible motive, because that's going to give you a story at least to follow, a path to follow.
The killers staged the scene to look like robbery.
And even though they were pretty sure it wasn't, that didn't mean that the murders weren't about money.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, for sure.
So at that point they started to consider who would have benefited from the deaths of these three victims.
Digging into Millie's background, they discovered that she had come from a large family with 13 brothers and sisters.
Damn.
But they were all super close.
They all seemed to be upstanding people.
And by all appearances, they were still very close with each other.
They kept in touch regularly.
Like, this wasn't the path they were going down.
Millie's sister Elaine said there are 365 days in a year, and I was at Millie's house 360 of them.
Which just made me think of you.
Yeah.
Like, seriously.
Yeah.
Clearly whoever was responsible for these murders.
They weren't going to be found among the family of Millie.
So, turning his attention to Millie's ex-husband Lawrence, Detective Wittenberg started to learn the details of the divorce and of Trevor's medical history and the malpractice settlement from Children's Hospital.
Even though they were divorced under Maryland law.
If Millie and Trevor both were to die, then the multi-million dollar trust fund set up for Trevor's care would go directly to Lawrence Horn.
As far as Detective Wittenberg was concerned, that was a very good motive for murder.
Sure is.
So suspicion fell quickly on him.
But at the same time, the detective didn't want to rush into things.
So he started questioning the people around Millie about her relationship with Lawrence.
Millie's sisters all said unanimously that the divorce proceedings were hostile, like particularly hostile, and they also all of them knew Lawrence had fallen well behind on his child support payments in recent months and was facing I don't know exactly what, but I know you can face jail time if you don't pay.
Yeah absolutely.
Or they can start to just take your paycheck directly.
Yeah.
So they all agreed that if anybody would have wanted Millie dead, it would have been Lawrence.
But the most interesting piece of information actually came from Millie and Lawrence's daughter Tiffany.
The night before the murders occurred, she actually spoke to her dad on the phone.
And according to her, her quote, her father had been obsessed with questions about where everybody in the family would be the following night, including what she knew about when her mother would be home and whether Tammy L would be sleeping over that night at Elaine's.
Ooh.
That's so spooky.
So he wanted to make sure that Tammy L. wasn't there, at least is what it sounded like.
Damn.
So Tiffany's interview supported the belief that Lawrence was involved in the murder.
And 10 days later, he flew to Los Angeles to sit down for an interview with Lawrence.
Before he got there though, he arranged with the LAPD to have the home Lauren shared with his girlfriend Sherry to be searched for evidence.
So on the evening of March 13th, officers arrived at the house with a search warrant and neither Sherry nor Lawrence was home.
So it was kind of perfect.
Yeah.
When they searched the house, they found, among other things, a video cassette where Lawrence filmed himself driving the route from the Days Inn in Rockville Maryland, to Millie's neighborhood in Silver Spring.
As well as a hand-drawn map of Millie's neighborhood that indicated which house was hers.
Huh.
There was also a piece of paper from a Days End notepad that had several phone numbers and other pieces of cryptic information.
Ew.
So that's all weird.
I don't like it.
You don't need a map of anybody's house that you know.
Yeah, I don't like it.
A few hours into their search, Sherry and Lawrence actually got back home, and they both were shocked.
They were like, what the fuck is the police doing here?
And when they gave Lawrence a copy of the warrant and explained why they were there, he immediately protested and he said no no, no.
I have an alibi for the night of the murder.
Better than an alibi, even.
I have a videotape of me and Sherry in the apartment on the night of the murder.
Irrefutable proof that he was nowhere near Maryland when Millie, Janice, and Trevor were killed.
Okay.
Odd.
Very odd.
Odd.
Very odd.
The next day, Detective Wittenberg watched the tape.
In it, Lawrence and Sherry can just be seen standing in the living room of their apartment as the camera films from a position on a tripod, and at one point the camera zooms in on the television directly behind them and the date and time can clearly be seen.
That's convenient.
Super duper.
Wow.
But it was irrefutable proof that Lawrence couldn't have been in Maryland when the murders were committed.
But as far as Detective Wittenberg was concerned, like you just said, it was all a little too convenient and really fucking odd.
Yep.
Like why do you just have a videotape of you standing in your living room with your girlfriend that zooms in on the time and date?
Yeah, that's a little weird.
I don't know about it.
A little weird.
It'd be one thing if it was like a birthday party or like an anniversary or like something.
But just for the hell of it.
Yeah, like it's just strange.
I don't know about that.
So it proved he wasn't directly the killer, but that didn't mean that he wasn't responsible for the deaths.
Now, turning to the only evidence of substance gathered from his apartment, Detective Wittenberg directed several members of his team to contact all of the days and locations in the vicinity of Millie's neighborhood.
And they needed to get access to their registrations in the days leading up to the murder.
Great detective work.
Yeah, I was going to say, it's one of those situations that you're like, good job.
Yeah.
So almost immediately, one registration jumped out at him.
Around midnight on the night of the murders, a man named James Perry checked into the Days Inn in Rockville Maryland, and checked out just six hours later.
Weird.
He paid cash for the room, but he used his driver's license when he checked in.
So, looking over the phone records for the hotel room, it also appeared that Perry had got a call around 1150 pm from a payphone that just happened to be located outside of the post office, which was a short distance away from Lawrence Horn's home, all the way in LA.
Wow.
That's crazy.
That is crazy.
Yeah.
Even more damning.
Phone records also showed an incoming call to Lawrence Horn's apartment from the Days Inn at 512 am, just after the murders occurred and just before Perry checked out of the hotel.
Huh.
Interesting.
Very interesting.
So a quick check of James Perry's background revealed that he was a fairly small-time criminal from Detroit.
At the time of the murders, he was presenting himself professionally as Dr J Perry, a self-described spiritual advisor and case buster.
Okay.
Yeah.
Spiritual advisor and case buster.
Two things that don't necessarily go hand in hand.
No, they don't.
I feel like they should.
I don't know.
Yeah.
He also had a criminal record that included arrests for felony assault, armed robbery, and he was known for being a con artist.
Okay.
Yeah.
Now digging into those phone records, investigators discovered lots and lots of calls between pay phones in the area of Lawrence Horn's apartment and pay phones in places where Perry was known to spend his time in Detroit.
With help from the FBI, Detective Wittenberg had an agent interview, James Perry, under the guise of just a routine check.
The agent told Perry it was just a routine thing.
They were checking with everybody who had checked into the Days Inn on that date.
And Perry was like, yep, I was there.
I stopped to get some sleep.
I was driving for a while, but I still had several more hours of driving ahead of me.
So it was a quick thing.
He said once he rested, he got back on the road and he continued home to Detroit.
Now using his credit card as the main reference point, investigators were able to establish that he had made several calls to LA on the trip from Rockville to Detroit.
And between the calls from Detroit to Los Angeles and the calls establishing his trip from Maryland to Detroit, agents were very much able to get a warrant to search his apartment.
Seeming a little sus.
Yeah.
So the search of his apartment didn't necessarily turn up much that was incriminating or much that was of evidentiary value.
But they did find a large number of books, magazines, and catalogs about crime and weapons.
And they weren't just the kind of thing that you could buy at any bookstore.
The magazines and the catalogs would have had to have been directly ordered from a company.
Yeah.
So, on a hunch, Detective Wittenberg started calling around to some of these publishers to find out whether James Perry had ordered anything from them.
And it took a few tries to finally get a hit.
But a company called Paladin Press in Colorado confirmed that James Perry had ordered two books from them in 1992.
According to the sales rep, the titles were...
How to Make Disposable Silencers, and Hitman, a Technical Manual for Independent Contractors.
What?
Yeah.
That second one?
Literally titled Hitman.
The second one?
Hitman, a Technical Manual?
And remember I told you whoever killed them used a silencer on their automatic rifle.
Of course yeah, what the that?
I can't believe that exists.
Like what the fuck?
And imagine if this detective hadn't had the hunch to call those publishing companies like that's next level, this is right in your face.
Yeah, like he found the smoking gun like very much right here, very much so, holy shit, thank goodness he was thinking outside of the box a little yeah, a little bit, as a one you have to think of the time here.
It's like the 90s, like it's.
It's impressive, that is out of the box, thinking at that point.
Yeah, so now, sensing that he was becoming the prime suspect, or at least one of them, in millie's murder, uh yeah, lawrence decided he was going to be proactive in his defense and he started offering interviews with any reporter who would listen.
When asked directly by an associated press reporter whether he had anything to do with the deaths, he said i couldn't be involved in something like that.
I couldn't have done that to trevor okay, According to him, any suspicion that had fallen on him was the result of accusations made by Millie's sisters.
In fact, he told a reporter he had decided to stay away from his own son's funeral due to the quote amount of animosity that they felt towards him.
So he was making himself a victim in all of this.
There's so many layers to that because it's like, wow, you're going to blame her sisters?
And you're not going to go to your own son's funeral?
And you're not going to go...
Could you not handle it?
Wild horses shouldn't be able to drag you away from that funeral.
Who gives a shit if people think you're it?
I wouldn't care at all.
No.
Everybody can think I'm an asshole.
That's my son's funeral.
Yeah, you would go.
And it's like, do you think you look better not going to your child's funeral?
That's the thing.
Like, what the fuck?
But it's also like, could you handle it?
Yeah.
Maybe knowing what you maybe allegedly did.
Maybe there's a reason you can't.
So, despite his attempts to frame himself as just another victim in the tragedy, statements from Millie's friends and family that came out in the months that followed really didn't do a lot to support his account.
In April two of Millie's co-workers came forward with reports that Millie feared Horn might kill her.
She was literally telling people that.
And those were followed by reports in the press that he was unemotional when he learned of the murders.
In response, he told a reporter that the murders had quote devastated his life and that he had quote nothing whatsoever to do with them.
What Lawrence didn't know was though, behind the scenes, investigators were very capable of building this case and were building this case against James Perry.
And that case involved that trail of telephone conversations that led directly to Lawrence.
Because it always will, babe.
It always will.
It always will.
Finally, in late July 1994, more than a year after the murders had occurred, the Montgomery County State's attorney, Andrew Sonner, gave the go-ahead to Detective Wittenberg to arrest both James Perry and Lawrence Horn on charges of first-degree murder, and they were both picked up in Detroit and in Hollywood on July 20th.
I never understand why people think they're going to get away with that.
You're never going to get somebody to do your dirty work for you.
It's always going to tie back to you and you're both going to go down.
That's the thing.
At a press conference the following day, Sonner praised Wittenberg's team for what he called the most exhaustive and labor intensive investigation in the department's history.
Wow.
And as for the crime itself, he told reporters, this is not an ordinary murder case.
This was planned long in advance and arranged with a great deal of preparation and evil.
This is his own son.
This is his own son and the mother of his children.
Yeah.
And the woman that has taken... Dedicated her life to taking care of his family.
Dedicated her life to helping take care of your family.
Yep.
Like, what the fuck?
So in response to the charges his lawyer told reporters I spoke to Mr Horn at some length last evening.
He continues to maintain his innocence and continues to vehemently deny any involvement in these murders.
Then how is he connected to the hitman?
Exactly.
Come on.
So, despite that, law enforcement officials assured the press that they had worked tirelessly over the last year and that they established documentary evidence proving that Lawrence had hired James Perry, communicated with him before and after the murders and also paid him.
Yeah, babe, you can't get out of it.
They literally had evidence of payment.
How do you explain that?
You can't.
You can't.
So James's trial began October 12th, 1995.
And by that time, the case had been covered very extensively in the press.
And Sonner's decision to ask for the death penalty made it even more sensational for trial watchers.
So the biggest challenge for prosecutors Bob Dean and Teresa Whalen was the fact that the entire case against Perry was based on circumstantial evidence.
They had the phone log showing that contact between the two.
They did have the financial transaction.
And the two books, Hitman and Silencer.
But nothing directly connecting him to the murders from a legal standpoint, exactly.
Yeah.
So rather, like forensics, exactly.
So, rather than try to minimize that fact, Teresa Whelan actually leaned into it, which was a smart way to go about this.
She told the jury James Perry did better than leaving his fingerprint at the scene, because James Perry followed a blueprint.
Yeah, and here's the blueprint.
Literally.
He had followed the instructions in Hitman to the letter, which was the most compelling evidence that he committed the those murders.
That is such a smart way to go about.
It is a not, we don't need a fingerprint.
Yeah, he has the blueprint.
We have the book that we know he has yep, and he followed it to the teeth and not only like has, but special ordered yeah, and it's like, and this blueprint is exactly why we don't have exactly yeah.
So ultimately, the jury agreed
And October 12th.
After deliberating for just four hours, they found him guilty on all three counts of first degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder.
A few days later, on October 16th, that same jury sentenced him to death by lethal injection for those murders and a life sentence for the conspiracy charge.
His sentence was the first time a Maryland jury had returned a death sentence in 15 years.
Wow.
In almost 15 years.
So it was a big deal.
Yeah.
Which is another reason that I'm just shocked I hadn't heard of this case before.
I know.
So Lawrence's trial followed a few months behind Perry's, with Dean and Whalen also leading the prosecution and presenting pretty much the same case to a new jury.
Rodney Smola wrote Yeah, the kid's father, and like his estranged wife yeah, among other things, the trial featured a lot of lengthy readings from hitman, including a passage that suggested hitmen should, quote look for clients in messy divorce cases.
Wow, spot on.
That is such a i can't believe that that exists.
How disgusting.
Well, i have good news for you.
Good So.
The trial also included obviously gripping, heartbreaking testimony from several family members, including Millie's sister Vivian, who remember found her sister's body and described that to the court.
I can't even imagine that.
Her detailed account of finding her sister's body caused another one of Millie's sisters to start crying uncontrollably, and she actually had to be removed with assistance, which is just.
I don't know how you can sit there and not uncontrollably cry.
Yeah.
The most damning testimony though, came from Tiffany, who told the court that her father quote told me once that Trevor could never be a real son to him because of his condition.
That's fucking disgusting.
Truly.
That is so shameful.
Absolutely.
That's fucking disgusting.
Absolutely it is.
One, to say that at all, or to have those feelings.
To even feel that way.
Then two, to say it to your other child.
Who's disgusting.
That's his older sister.
Yeah, that's disgusting, unreal.
So the jury in the horn trial found the prosecution's case just as compelling as the jury in the Perry case.
Luckily, and on May 4th, Lawrence Horn was found guilty of three counts of first degree murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder.
According to the press, he betrayed no emotions as the verdicts were read in a packed courtroom stone-faced, he doesn't give a shit.
No, after the verdicts were announced, janice saunders sister terry krebs, told reporters there's no joy in this decision because joy was taken from us on march 3rd 1993.
Tiffany was more satisfied with the outcome.
She said i'm just glad we got a guilty verdict.
Not only were my mother and my brother and janice killed, but my family was destroyed.
I hope when this is over we'll be able to rebuild it, because all we have is family.
Oh, that just breaks my heart.
It's like babe, how does your fucking daughter know that at 20 years old, or like a little bit older at this point, and you don't yeah, you don't realize that all you have is family yeah, and that you don't fucking turn your back and kill your whole family and to say that child was not a real son because of what he had gone through?
What the fuck, What?
That's so gross.
Because he has difficulty breathing and it had like a tragic event.
Yeah.
Take so many things away from him.
He's not your real son.
So on May 17th the jury convened and he was sentenced to life in prison, with no possibility for parole.
Bye.
In 2001, of course, there was an appeals an automatic appeal, because James Perry had got the death penalty.
He argued, among other things, that his constitutional rights had been violated when investigators tapped his phone.
It's always the constitutional rights.
The justices ultimately did reverse the lower court's decision, but it was with no enthusiasm.
They wrote when due process demands, the law will reverse a conviction of an undisputed and cold-blooded killer, even on a technicality.
Because it must.
It is not with any sense of satisfaction that a court reverses on a technicality.
When it does so, it does so reluctantly and with a heavy heart and only because it must.
Oh, damn.
So they were like, our backs are up against a corner here.
We don't want to do this, but we have to.
So after the conviction was overturned, the state district attorney consulted with the victim's families on what they would prefer if they wanted Perry to be tried again or if they wanted him to just get a plea deal.
I like when they do this.
Yeah, it's cool.
Yeah.
They all agreed that he should be retried for the murders.
After presenting what was basically the same case against Perry, just without some of the phone tapping evidence, he was found guilty again.
However, this time the jury sentenced him to four life sentences without the possibility of parole.
Honestly, let's go.
Basically the same.
Yeah.
On December 30th 2009, he died of an undisclosed illness at Maryland's Jessup Correctional Institution.
And Lawrence Horne also died in prison of an undisclosed illness on February 11th, 2017.
Peace.
Bye.
Following the conviction of James Perry, Elaine Rice ended up filing a suit against the Paladin Press and its owner, Peter Lund, arguing that their books had contributed to the death of Janice Saunders, Millie and Trevor Horne.
Yes.
I'm not usually for this kind of thing.
No, me neither.
I'm fully for this in this case.
I am very much not for, you know, banning books, anything like that.
This kind of book?
Abso-fucking-lutely.
A book that is a literal manual to murder someone?
Get it out of here.
And that's the intention of it?
Get it out of here.
That's fucked up.
Yeah.
Like this isn't like fiction.
This isn't like a discussion of this kind of stuff.
This is a literal how-to guide.
I mean, that's the line.
I can't believe it ever was even published, to be honest.
Lawyer Howard Siegel said, it's a murder manual.
Perry bought the book from Paladin.
He followed 27 specific instructions in the book, and he executed three human beings.
Yeah, I mean to me.
Maybe somebody else feels differently about this and you absolutely can if you want to.
Yeah, of course.
Again, banning books, I am 100% not for, obviously.
This one has no place as a book.
No, it just doesn't.
It's not a book.
It's a murder manual.
Precisely.
That's literally what it is.
That's not a book.
Precisely.
In their defense, Lund argued quote we didn't have anything to do with inciting Mr Perry to murder.
In how many ways did these particular killings differ from what was written, from the killings described in the hitman manual?
It's like they didn't really.
He followed it to a T. He followed it.
So in February 97, the court ruled that hitman was not protected by the First Amendment.
And both Lund and Paladin Press could be held liable for its role in three murders.
So this is a big deal.
Two years later, in 99, Paladin Press did agree to settle out of court with the family.
Not because they accepted their role in the murders they said, but because their insurance company refused to continue liability coverage because these costs were insane.
At this point,
In addition to paying for the financial penalties, they did agree to destroy the remaining copies of the book and they surrendered their rights to the work.
Wow.
And that is the hitman murders, the murders of Millie, Trevor, and Janice.
What a horrific case.
It really is.
A horrific and completely senseless case.
So senseless.
It was all for money.
Yeah.
It was all just so that he could live the life that he wanted to live again.
He didn't want to keep having a fish.
Selfishness.
Like, I'm just, that, that got me.
Yeah, it's a, it's a horrible case.
And it's just surprising.
Like, I hadn't heard of that one before.
I, just I am like an eight-year-old who has already gone through everything that Trevor has gone through.
Yeah, the worst thing, they're surrounded by a stuffed animal.
Unable to move.
Unable to move or fight back.
Unable to protect himself.
And his mother who has done everything to try to take care of those kids and work for those kids.
Yeah.
She's working her ass off and like working overnights to pay for a nurse.
She was a single mother.
Absolutely.
That's so fucked up.
And this nurse who has like dedicated her whole life to helping this family.
Like fuck you.
And you killed some of the best of the best people it seems.
Yeah.
It's so sad.
Damn.
That's rough.
It's a rough one.
Yeah.
I'm so happy that he died in prison.
I'm glad justice was served.
And that the hitman died in prison as well.
I hope his remaining children and family and like Millie's family are fucking thriving.
Yeah.
Well, and I like what Tiffany said like this destroyed my family, but I hope we can rebuild, because that's all you have is family.
Yeah.
I hope they did.
I hope they're thriving.
I really do.
I hope they're so happy and healthy.
I wish them all the best.
Living the best lives.
All right.
Do you want a fun fact?
Yes.
I crave a fun fact right now.
This one I found, I was just like, that really is fun.
Many animals are able to predict earthquakes, to varying levels of success, but snakes are the most reliable.
They can sense an earthquake from as far as 75 miles away, and they can even sense an earthquake five days before it actually occurs.
That is the funnest fact.
Isn't it?
And when they sense an earthquake, they leave their nest, even if it's too cold out.
They're like, I'm not staying here for this shit.
I don't think this shit's going to collapse.
Isn't that fascinating?
Wow.
And that was from the fact site.
Yeah shit yeah, and i wonder if it's just something to do with how grounded to the earth they are probably all the time.
Yeah, like their entire lives are grounded to the earth.
They can feel their whole body.
They can feel like a shift.
That is cool as hell.
It is cool.
I i snakes creep me out, but i really like them.
I really like, i really like them.
I held a giant snake at my youngest birthday party.
That's cool and i felt like britney spears absolutely it's britney, it was it.
I was like I love this snake.
You said, every time they turn the lights down.
The snake was so sweet.
She was like a beautiful lady.
I love that.
And I felt like we connected.
You did.
Hell yeah, snakes.
I love it.
I'm obsessed.
Damn.
All right.
Well, think about snakes.
Yeah.
Think about genuine snakes, not human snakes like that guy Lawrence.
Yeah, don't think about them.
And James Perry.
Yeah.
But yeah, think about snakes.
Order Lena's books.
Yeah.
Watch Center Stage.
Watch The Pit.
Yeah.
Find Joy.
And Abolish Ice.
Yeah.
We hope you keep listening.
And we hope you... Keep listening.
It's weird, but not so weird that you say we're virtue signaling, but yeah.
Thank you.
