Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Round Table. You're listening to Round Table with myself, Huayang.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly in the studio and Josh Cotterrell on the line.
Coming up, let's take a culinary journey around the world.
In China, enjoy stress-free dining with all-inclusive pricing.
In North America, experience the lively tipping culture where generosity is celebrated.
The UK offers a blend of both worlds with flexible tipping practices.
Ready to dive into this global gratuity adventure?
Share your most awkward tipping moments with us.
And ever stumbled upon a Confucius quote that made you pause and reflect, whether it's about wisdom, patience, or the art of living?
Confucius sayings have stood the test of time.
We'll share our favorite Confucius quotes and explore why they resonate with us today.
Our podcast listeners can find us at Round Table China on Apple Podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts.
If you have a question that you'd like us to answer in a future show, whether it be about something that happened in the news or something you've been wondering about, you could email us a voice memo to e-z-f-m-roundtable at foxmail.com.
Now, welcome to the great tipping tango of 2024.
On one side of the dance floor, we have China, where folks blissfully twirl through life without ever reaching for that extra yuan.
Here, when you see a price tag, that's it.
No sneaky service charges during the cha-cha on your bill later.
Now shimmy your way across the Pacific, and you'll find our friends in North America doing the tip-flation twist.
What started as a modest 10% two-step has now become a full-on 30% break dance in some places.
Some folks are grooving to this new beat, but others?
They're ready to hang up their dancing shoes and call it a night, and they're giving the whole scene two thumbs down and a check, please.
So party people, has this dance gone on too long?
Is it time to change the tune or keep the tipping tango going?
And Steve, I know you've done some research on this.
Has the tipping tango spun out of control in North America?
Or maybe are we just dizzy from all the twirling?
They are popping and locking until early in the morning, tip-wise to use your same analogy.
We're very well done there.
There was a story in the national post, that's a Canadian news outlet recently, and the topic of tipping, at least in North America, Josh, maybe you'll agree in Europe and in the UK, the topic of tipping pops up in the news from time to time, just because it's such a divisive one.
And that's exactly what's happened here.
So again, from the national post, and the story spoke about how Canadians are looking for ways to get more out of their money, and the story in part spoke about tipping.
So this was a survey that they spoke about, and it was from Lightspeed Commerce, and it wasn't conducted solely in Canada, but they surveyed 7,500 diners, 1,500 of those were from Canada, but other countries too.
And through the survey, they discovered other things like Canadians have the very big disdain for QR code menus, which I thought was interesting because those are everywhere here in China.
I've had to adjust to those very quickly.
Canadians apparently don't like those very much.
20% said they appreciate the hygiene of them, 90% said they prefer your standard menu.
But they talked about other things in the survey as well, but we'll touch upon those a little bit later.
But yes, tipping was the main point of the story.
And of all the regions surveyed, I don't know if I should be ashamed to say this or not, Canadians are the worst tippers in the world.
They are cutting back on tipping the most, with 25% of Canadians tipping less than diners in other countries, including the United States, Josh, you'll be proud to know the UK, also France, all saw a 19% decrease.
But it is interesting to note that everyone seems to be tipping less.
It's just Canadians that are tipping the least amount according to this survey result.
I mean, it sounds from your tone that you're a tipper yourself, could I assume, and that you're not too happy with this placement?
I tip, I'll get to my full opinion on it a little bit later, but I do tip.
And that could be part of me being from a country where tipping is not just a reward for a quality service or product.
It's expected. It is ingrained into Canadians that we not only are suggested to tip, we have to.
It doesn't matter whether the service is good or not.
That's the part that is contentious with me.
But to answer your question, Josh, yeah, Canadians consider ourselves to be rather generous people, but food has gotten more expensive these days.
You talk about tipflation, and that's referring to tip prices going up, but also shrinkflation.
Shrinkflation refers to food portions decreasing, finding less on your plate for the same price, if not an increased price.
All of these things are taken into account when Canadians are tipping, and life has gotten apparently too expensive in Canada, and that's part of the reason tipping has decreased so much too.
And also, you've seen really high inflation rates since 2022.
Now, it seems like the level has gone far lower to 2% plus, but in 2022, it was like 8% or 9% for Canada as well as the US.
So what about you, Josh, when you look at tipping in your country, am I correct to say that it's a little bit of a guessing game?
You're, you can or you cannot, and it's not a must.
Yeah, you're right there.
In the UK, it's expected, and of course, I think something that maybe we should talk about is who we are tipping and the kind of wages that the people that we usually tip are on, and maybe who bears the responsibility of that minimum wage, whether it should be the customer who's boosting their salary, or maybe it should come from somewhere else, but either way, yeah,
to answer your question in the UK, it certainly is a bit of a grey area, and it's usually about 10%, and this is like a 10% of the bill, and you would, but then where that money gets distributed to and to whom is also a little bit complicated.
If you are in, I've worked in many restaurants growing up, and when I was also at university, I worked in several cocktail bars and restaurants in London, and the tip would always go to the person who served the drinks, not the person who made the drinks.
Some restaurants have a system where tips must go in a box and it's distributed evenly at the end of the night, but actually UK law states that this is up to the establishment to business.
Yeah, sometimes restaurants will break up the tips, including the kitchen staff, even the dishwashers too, it depends on the business, but Joshie talked about the fact that Brits like to tip around 10%, Canadians too, according to this survey result, 47% said that they prefer to tip between 10% and 15%, and actually a smaller amount, 15% of the respondents said
they like to tip less than even 10%, which would be completely and totally unacceptable these days, and even 10% to 15% is considered unacceptable these days.
The number has gone up, and that's what they talk about when they say the word tipflation.
It used to be 10% to 15%, now it's minimum 15%, 20%, 25%, and in some cases, even 30% is expected.
See, as a Chinese person, I just find all of this outlandish.
It's just so much of a financial burden if you're expected to pay that much after a meal.
It's not just a financial burden, it's the pressure as well.
You know, it's not like Canadians don't enjoy tipping people at all, according again to the results of the survey.
48% said they support tipping delivery drivers because there's a great service there.
They actually go to the restaurant, pick up your food, and then bring it right to your door.
So it's not that. It's the tipflation, and it's the pressure, and it's the expectation in society as well.
Josh, I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but I was in North America in the last couple of years, and this is how it goes.
So when you finish your meal and you go to pay, you'll pay into a credit card machine, right?
Most people don't use cash these days.
And when you do that, you're taken to a screen, usually it's a handheld machine, and the server will kind of put it right in front of you.
And it's the tip screen, and it says, what do you prefer?
15, 20, 25, or custom, where you can customize your own tip.
There are cases these days where they even put 30% as an option.
And then there's a little tiny box at the bottom of the screen that says, no tip.
So imagine that moment.
They kind of put it right in front of you.
Maybe you're paying your bill, so you feel emotional pressure to tip, which is fine, but then you don't want to hit 15% because you're going to feel embarrassed, because that's the lowest possible number you can choose.
So most people choose 20%.
And I think that's kind of commonplace.
Josh, in the UK, that process of tipping at the end of a meal, is that how it goes?
And also, do people in the UK also feel that emotional pressure to tip to?
I think that it's similar.
It's not as extreme as that.
I think usually when you are handed the card machine, you will be given the option to tip around 10% or have a custom.
I've never seen 10, 15, 20, 30% as a variety of options on that machine.
And I think that what you talk about this sort of underlying discomfort or uncertainty is definitely pervasive in UK tipping culture, in restaurant culture as well.
So I think that that is the key issue here also in the United Kingdom, is many people are slightly unsure.
I know myself, whenever I go back to the UK, having been in China for quite some time now where you don't tip at all, I think even when I first arrived here, I tried to tip a few times just out of habit and was met with very confused, even offended gestures and faces.
But in the UK, when I go back, I do feel a little bit of pressure and uncertainty.
Maybe that's just because I'm having reverse culture shock, but a lot of people feel this as well.
And so it is understandable to me that we should again look at this table where Canada has finished top or bottom, however you look at it, I guess, you know, there's a lot more to it.
There's a lot more depth to this.
And I agree with you. Certainly it cannot be that Canadians are just stingy with their money, right?
It's more illustrative of a culture of an industry, a multi-billion dollar industry, right?
Tipping that is really confusing.
And for me personally, is it that we should be thinking about how much to tip them or should we maybe be increasing the minimum wage, which in my own country, most of the people receiving the tips are actually on?
Yeah, I think the bottom of it is really the pay structure of the service workers.
And yes, the restaurant business is a big part of it.
But I suppose this spreads out to many sectors of the service industry when you encounter a person who's delivering some kind of service.
But I still think it should be when you're very satisfied with the service, show you be required or expected to tip.
Yeah, I mean, and we're speaking at least we have thus far from a customer's point of view, right?
But there's also the point of view from the server.
And you're right, a lot of these servers are working for minimum wage.
And I was watching some videos online about servers who had kind of freaked out when they didn't receive a tip.
But imagine that. Imagine when you go to work every day, you are depending on those tips to feed your family.
And because of various factors, people don't want to tip anymore because it's gotten too expensive or they think the onus should be on the restaurant owner, not on the customer.
But I was on the US Department of Labor website because I was curious about what the laws actually were.
And here's the quote, an employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 per hour in direct wages.
If that amount combined with the tips received at least equals the federal minimum wage.
So their hourly wage can be as low as $2.13 if they work with a tipped job like working at a restaurant.
So it's difficult. So if those tips suddenly disappear from their lives, we're going to have a snowball effect.
People aren't going to take those jobs anymore because you can't make any money there.
Restaurants are going to be understaffed.
The service industry is going to experience a problem.
This is going to have a snowball effect if tipping suddenly disappears from culture, which by the way was part of the survey result.
34% of Canadians and 34% of Belgians said that they want to completely eradicate tipping altogether.
And increase the salaries of the service workers, I suppose.
I mean, when you talk about these numbers and compare globally, I think it becomes kind of tricky.
And for China, I suppose the labor costs, despite being on a rise in recent years, but it's still, I mean, the numbers kind of speak for themselves.
It's still far cheaper here hiring people.
And the way the restaurant, I only say about the restaurant business here, that often they provide lodging and also feeding the staff.
And therefore their wages can be quite a bit lower than some of the other industries.
But the basic pay should be able to sustain a living.
And also if you go to some of the nicer restaurants in this country, the service charge is included in the menu.
And you'll see that, oh, in your bill, there will be a 10% or 15% service charge and you'll expect that.
And people don't argue against that.
So maybe I think sort of being certain, there are no surprises and there's no emotional blackmail in front of your face.
And then the whole experience, even if it's a little bit expensive, then it's okay.
Talking about the expectation to tip in North America, I was in Los Angeles and I was in Koreatown.
And I had lived in Korea for 20 years at the time.
And in Korea, that's one of the countries where you don't tip.
And I was in Koreatown in Los Angeles.
So when I was finished my meal, it didn't even register with me that I was actually in the United States.
I guess in my brain, I was still in Korea.
I paid the bill, I didn't tip.
I left the restaurant, I walked about 50 meters down the sidewalk, and the server came running after me down the street and said, hey, was there a problem with the service?
And I said, no, not at all.
You did a great job. Thanks, buddy.
See you. And he said, oh, you didn't tip.
I said, oh my gosh. And he was a young Korean American guy.
And I said, oh my gosh. And I explained, oh, I lived in Korea and I thought he did not care at all because his response was this isn't Korea.
And so in essence, you were, is it that you were paying his wage then?
Can you sort of deduce from that?
Because the tip presumably was making up some of his salary.
Or I guess you just don't know, right?
You don't know whether that restaurant is how much they're paying him, right?
Because the minimum wage, as you just mentioned, is quite unclear depending on whether they use the tip to make up the amount of the minimum wage, right?
I think the best way to answer your question is to just say again that tipping is so ingrained in North American culture that if you don't do it, it's really, really insulting to the server.
And that doesn't matter if how their wage is calculated.
It makes no difference at all.
It's just part of the culture.
And people in North America, they're getting tired of that because the amounts keep increasing.
And also the locations as well.
I mean, this has really gotten out of control.
I was watching a news report from, I think it was Fox26 Houston or something like that in Texas.
And the news anchor was complaining about the fact that self-service checkout spots were offering a screen where you could tip 15, 20, 25 percent.
Self-service. There's not even a person there.
So the anchor saying, who is this tip going to?
What has this come to? And that's the attitude of North Americans right now.
This is getting out of control.
So would that be your tipping breakpoint, Josh?
The self-service machine.
Yeah, I mean, I guess that this is all cultural.
And what we mean by cultural is that it's deeply ingrained into our psyche the way that we've been brought up or if we've lived abroad for a long time.
And for me being British and to experience that, I've never experienced that in my life and it seems completely bizarre to me.
I can understand it, but I can see how it's going to snowball into who knows?
Where is this going? I mean, what is the end goal of this?
You can understand it. I can't understand that.
Why am I tipping a machine?
Does that machine have little machine babies and halt?
I mean, I literally understand your English.
Yeah. Yeah. And coming up, Confucius has given us countless nuggets of wisdom, but which ones hit home for you?
We discuss the Confucius quotes that inspire us and why they hold such power.
Stay tuned. It's the hour of Rantable with myself He Yang.
I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Josh Katerall.
Confucius was a Chinese philosopher considered the first teacher in China to advocate for mass education.
His philosophical teachings called Confucianism emphasized personal and governmental morality, harmonious social relationships, righteousness, kindness and sincerity.
He is believed to have been born in September 551 BCE, the end of the spring and autumn period, but his teachings and memorable quotes still live on today.
A survey has been conducted recently asking expats about their favorite Confucius quotes.
Let's dive into the timeless words of Confucius and discuss our favorites.
So, Steve, tell us about your favorite takeaways of this survey.
Yeah, this is kind of fun, isn't it?
So they did this survey online and they asked 312 foreigners about their favorite Confucius quotes.
This was done recently in June by chinadaily.com.cn, also the Information Office of the Shandong Provincial People's Government.
They did it jointly. And it was done for a forum that was conducted recently and they wanted to kind of get some insight or a little bit of understanding of foreigners' knowledge and perceptions of Confucian culture overall.
The survey respondents, they came from all parts of the world.
26 different countries in total, including America, the UK, France, Japan, Canada, Germany, India, Pakistan, the list goes on and on.
And the age groups about 60% were between 18 and 30 years old and about 40% were over the age of 30.
So here's what they found in the survey.
About 86% of respondents correctly identified Shandong as the birthplace of Confucius.
Josh, would you have been able to answer that correctly if you had answered the survey question?
Absolutely not. I wouldn't have answered that correctly.
Okay, that makes me feel better because I wouldn't have known that either.
About 80% knew that the Analex is the most important Confucian classic and about 46% thought that benevolence is at the core concept of the Confucian school.
And here are some of the quotes that are most well known according to these survey respondents.
So when they asked people online, what is your most recognizable or what is the most recognizable quote from the Analex of Confucius?
More than 47% of respondents said this was the most familiar quote.
Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself.
That's the one that people knew the most.
And can I say it in Chinese, please?
Yes, first grader, maybe second grader in China.
No, what be able to say that?
They know that one too. Yeah, but isn't this also what Jesus have said as well?
Or you've seen this in different cultures and languages?
Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself or something along those lines.
I recognize that. Another one that people knew the survey found that when this is the quote, when three people walk together, there must be a teacher among them.
And also this one, what a joy to have friends coming from afar.
Those are also quotes that are well known among foreigners.
Each of them was chosen by 40% of the respondents.
I like that one. When three people walk together, there must be a teacher among them.
That kind of implies everyone may be dumb.
So at least someone has to be smart in that group.
Yeah, there's so many other wonderful quotes as well.
And I think one that I was familiar with that probably was also popular with some of the foreigners was the superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds his actions.
Probably we should translate that as maybe use the word person today, right?
Not just man. We should say that for a lot of these quotes, by the way.
We have to remember these are from a long, long time ago.
Yes, and also in Chinese, the superior man or the gentleman is referred to as Jun.
And in China, that is a very, at least in ancient China, and even to some extent today, it is a very important concept and it is a morally refined person.
And then there's this very high requirement to one's practice as well as moral pursuit.
So it's kind of, in a way, highly disciplined, asked of a person.
So it's not like you just have to be good at your job and hardworking, but also virtually you need to sort of aim high and be a good person too.
And these came from the Anilex.
These came from such a long time ago, but it shows how wise these quotes were because people still living today in 2024 keep these quotes in mind as kind of like a not a measure per se, but at least just a reminder of how we should be living.
Josh, that quote, the superior man is modest in speech, but exceeds in his actions.
Do you try to apply that to your daily life?
I think so. I try my best, even though most of my daily life and almost all of my work has, requires me to have a microphone in front of me and has me speaking all of the time, or singing maybe.
So I guess that I am speaking a lot in my daily life, but I do try my best to live by this.
And I actually like the other quote that I think you found as well, which is the gentleman.
And I think that, again, you mentioned this her young already, but that word translated into gentleman.
I think that it's a difficult word to translate from Chinese, but we'll use the word gentleman.
The gentleman looks within himself.
The small man seeks what is in others.
I really like that one actually as well.
And I think that that is really true.
And I do. I try to live my life by this.
I don't have that sort of written on my wall or tattooed on my lower back or whatever.
But I certainly try to live by this.
And Steve, what is your favorite Confucius quote?
I like this one. Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
And to me, that kind of means that you're not truly smart until you realize how little you actually know that one kind of is a reminder to me to not think that I know too much about people or know too much about the world.
I'm just one of the members of a very, very, very large community and life is a constant learning experience.
So that one kind of resonates with me.
Me too. And while Confucius may not have achieved significant political success in his lifetime, his true legacy lies in his profound influence on education and philosophy.
By establishing private schools and teaching thousands of disciples, many of whom went on to become influential officials, Confucius laid the foundation for a system of thought that would grow to influence an entire civilization.
And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
Thank you so much Steve Hatherly and Josh Cotterall for joining the discussion.
Thank you for tuning in.
I'm He Young. We'll see you next time.
