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get your pods and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single episode here's my colleague lucy hawkins a musical about a mexican drug boss seeking gender -affirming surgery emilia perez is as ambitious and divisive as it sounds but it's not the content on screen which is causing most controversy
or dominating coverage long tipped to be a runaway success at ceremonies throughout awards season, the movie's positive, critical reception was strengthened by a wave of nominations.
And that momentum seemed unstoppable until the re -emergence of a series of tweets by lead actress Carla Sofia Gascon derailed promoters' plans.
Apologies and crisis PR followed, but Gascon was sidelined by the movie's representatives, all but ending her hopes of further personal plaudits.
And after throwing its weight behind co -star Zoe Saldana, the studio has managed to salvage some success.
But ahead of the Oscars, debate is growing about how much this scandal has harmed its performance.
So today we're asking, should we judge a movie by the actions of one of its stars?
With me is Noor Nanji, who's one of our culture reporters here at the BBC.
Good to see you, Noor.
Good to see you. It is one of the most talked about movies of this awards cycle.
There's been so much buzz around it but for anyone who hasn't seen it what is Amelia Perez all about?
That's a good question so yes you're right there's been a lot of buzz around it but let's go back to what it's all about so it's a Spanish language musical it's available on Netflix it is set in Mexico but it's actually mostly filmed in France there's a lot going on there and it is in a sense a bit
of a far -fetched concept.
So it's about a Mexican drug lord who changes gender.
It's got a cast which includes Selena Gomez, it's got Carla Sofia Gascon, and also Zoe Saldana.
And it's definitely been very talked about.
In some ways, it's quite divisive.
Some people, you either love it, or you hate it.
You might really like musicals, but not think it works with something to do with a drug cartel.
So there's a lot going on, I would say.
And we are going to be talking about this scandal that are surrounding the lead, Carla Sofia Gascon, but there was already some controversy around the movie before this particular scandal.
Yeah, that's right.
So the film has been criticised for its portrayal of Mexico and also of Mexican people, and that led to some scrutiny of the casting and also the production team involved.
So some Mexican critics said that it had negligible involvement, essentially, of Mexican people among its leading cast and crew, and they found that that wasn't right, And also they said that its depiction of the country wasn't quite what they expected it to be.
And particularly when you're dealing with such a sensitive issue around drugs, it's something that a lot of people felt wasn't handled properly.
And there was also some noise around the portrayal of gender affirming surgery.
And that's despite the fact you had a trans actress in the lead role.
And in fact, the noise got so significant that the lead, Carla Sofia Gascon, she actually accused the promoters of a rival film, I'm Still Here, of a smear campaign against Emilia Perez.
And that's something that they have definitely denied.
They have denied that.
Yes, that's right. I know that lots of people have seen it.
Some, as you've mentioned, have loved it.
Some people haven't liked it.
It's done really, really well when it comes to nominations for all of the awards.
We're in that sort of moment, aren't we, of all the award ceremonies taking place.
But would you say in terms of the critics, it's had quite a good response?
It has. It had really gushing reviews from film critics, newspapers, magazines.
And then, of course, it's been really well received by the awards ceremonies as well.
It won four Golden Globes at five European Film Awards.
And then, of course, the Oscar voters have given it a real seal of approval.
It is the frontrunner in a sense.
It's got the most nominations heading into the Oscars.
It's got 13 nominations in total.
Carla Sofia Gascon is nominated for Best Actress for the lead role.
That makes her the first openly trans person to be nominated in an acting category.
It's interesting as you approach the awards season, isn't it, that some movies start to gain a lot of momentum and this has definitely been one of those gnaw but it seems to have hit a bit of a snag because of these tweets that have emerged that Gascon sent that's right so probably towards the end of January
this whole campaign started to take a different direction and that's when a journalist uncovered some old tweets that were posted by Carla Sofia Gascon and those tweets were some of them were repeating Islamaphobic statements some of them were also criticising Black Lives Matter They were referring
to the death of George Floyd, and also some of them were criticising diversity at the Academy itself.
Now, those posts were mostly, they were on X, formerly known as Twitter, and they were largely from 2020 and 2021.
And as I say, they were unearthed by a journalist, and then they were reported in Variety.
And how did she respond?
Well, she subsequently deactivated her account on X, and she has since then issued multiple apologies, including via Netflix itself.
she said, as someone in a marginalised community, I know all this suffering too well, and I am deeply sorry for those that I've caused pain to.
And then after that, she gave an emotional one -hour -long interview in Spanish to CNN.
And in that, she again, she apologised to anyone who may have been offended by these posts.
But she said very categorically that she is not racist.
I think it would be very distasteful to say that I am a racist or that I've made racist comments towards black people or African -Americans in the United States because I love them.
I have millions of friends and I have worked with millions of people just like I have with Asian people.
And with respect to Muslims, right now I have a relationship with a wonderful person, a woman who is Muslim, And she has taught me so much about respect for people.
I come from a world where I have faced a lot of hatred and I have gone through many stages in my life.
He pasado por mucho odio, por muchas etapas en mi vida.
She also said that some of them have been taken out of context and she also denied a derogatory post that was apparently written about her co -star, Selena Gomez.
She said she never would have done that.
But it is worth mentioning, she's been notably absent from some of the awards ceremonies that have taken place since then.
So clearly it has had something of a knock on impact on how this campaign is going.
Yeah, it felt like there was a really big backlash and it was pretty quick as well.
How have other people who have been involved in the film responded?
Yeah, well, the film's director has distanced himself from the tweets.
He's condemned them and said that he is no longer in contact with her.
Netflix hadn't said much up to a point, but then recently its chief content officer did give a statement.
She said that it was a shame for everyone who'd been involved in the film, Because in a sense, this has sort of taken away from their successes and also said that, you know, there is a sense that Netflix has been in a way distancing themselves from it when it comes to the award ceremony and really refocusing
that campaign on Zoe Saldana, who is in the lead supporting actress category as well.
So, you know, it does go into the Oscars, as I say, with 13 nominations.
And some film critics have said that this is going to potentially impact how it does that.
I think it is fair to say that while back in January, you may have said this was the front runner.
I think it is no longer the sense that this is the front runner for the Oscars.
That does leave the race fully wide open going into this Sunday.
So, Noel, how well known was Carla Sophia Gascon before this movie?
Not that well known.
I think that's fair to say.
And I think a lot of people saw this as her breakout role.
And then, of course, to be considered in the race for the Oscars.
That was really something that I'm sure a lot of people were quite surprised about.
The Best Actress category is always so highly anticipated.
And Gascon stood a really good chance, it seemed, before all of this because, you know, the first trans actress to win it would have been quite a moment.
But do you really think this has totally put aside any of her chances?
I think there's no doubt that this row has definitely derailed the campaign for the film overall and for her because, you know, don't forget this was all happening right when the voting was taking place.
voting for the Oscars closed on the 17th of February so this was all happening right when this was going on.
I mean had this been several months ago perhaps they may have sort of pushed it aside but I just think when something's happening so right in the face of Oscar voting it's very difficult for them to ignore it and in a sense it would look quite difficult for them to ignore it and I think that presented
Oscar voters with a very difficult position there and I think you know while she may have been the front runner or one of the strongest candidates I just don't think she's really in the running it is a very open race it's an exciting race this year compared to last year when it was Oppenheimer cleaning
up but at the same time I think the conversation now is about is it going to be Demi Moore is it going to be Mikey Madison I'm not really hearing people saying it's going to be Carla Sofia Gascon you know had this maybe been a more minor character then that might have been easier for them to perhaps
overlook it but with someone so central to the film it's just very difficult for them to separate the two I think at this stage thanks so much Noor I know you're off to LA for the Oscars.
Have a fabulous time.
Thank you very excited.
So we've heard how the hype around Emilia Perez turned sour.
Next how does this moment compare to other Hollywood scandals of the past and should a movie be defined by those who make it?
This is Ashley Canetti from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast.
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weekday we break down one big news story with fresh perspectives from journalists around the world from artificial intelligence to divisive politics tearing our societies apart from the movements of money and markets to the human stories that touch our lives we bring you in -depth insights from across
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Joining me now is Matthew Bellany.
He's a former entertainment lawyer and ex -editor of The Hollywood Reporter.
Now he's at the digital media company Puck and is the host of The Town.
It's a podcast which explores the inside stories from the industry.
Hi, Matthew. Hello.
Now tell me, have you seen the movie?
I have seen Emilia Perez and I enjoyed it.
I saw it with a film festival audience in Toronto and it is a wild ride.
It's very unusual. I understand some of the controversy around it, but as an audacious piece of filmmaking, I enjoyed it.
Yeah. And you had a scoop of your own when it came to this story, Matthew, because it's Netflix that's distributing the film.
And you managed to get quite a reaction from the content officer, the chief content officer of Netflix on tape that made headlines all over the world.
What did she tell you?
She said it was a bummer.
You know what I think is really a bummer for 100 very incredibly talented people who made an amazing movie.
And if you look at the nominations and all of these sort of awards that it's received, I think it's such a bummer that it's distracted from that.
And that this was something that was unforeseen.
They do not screen the prior social media history of the talent that they work with.
And I think that was a mistake here.
It really has kind of taken in the conversation in a different way, except for this incredible movie that Jacques Odiard, who's an incredible director, has made.
And so to me, it really is a bummer for a lot of the people who have, like Zoe and Celine, like incredible performances.
When you are in an Oscar race in 2025, there are people out there on social media who are trying to dig up unflattering facts about the candidates.
These Oscar campaigns are exactly that they are campaigns they are political contests and for six months these movies are trying to jockey for position in the hearts and minds of academy voters around the world and if there is bad information out there on the internet someone is going to find it and resurface
it and netflix didn't look at carla sophia gascon's social media if they had they would have discovered these tweets they could have deleted them they could have planned and minimize this controversy.
They didn't, and it blew out.
That will come as a surprise to a lot of people.
But Matthew, is that just standard practice, that they don't do that kind of deep research?
I mean, it's not even that deep, is it?
It's simply going on to someone's social media account and looking at what they've been up to.
Shockingly, it is common practice.
These media companies, these movie studios, don't look at the social media of their talent.
Now, if you ask Netflix about this, they will say, we work with thousands and thousands of artists to produce hundreds of TV shows and hundreds of movies every year.
We can't go policing every little thing someone has said on the internet over their entire life.
Now, I understand that.
I think it's different when you have a movie that is in the Oscar race.
And don't forget, Netflix purchased US rights to this movie at the Cannes Film Festival specifically to do an Oscar campaign for this movie.
And I think the people who are in the Oscar race, They are scrutinized to an extent that you have to check their social media.
Every one of these candidates does dozens and dozens of press interviews.
They are out there campaigning at events and screenings and lunches all over town, all over the world for six months.
Bad stuff is going to come up if it's out there.
Yeah, and she's not just a minor character in one of these films.
She's a trans actress, which was going to bring a lot of attention for one thing.
And she is the lead character.
of the whole film was built around her.
Yeah, that's the name, Amelia Perez.
This is Amelia Perez.
They knew this was going to be a controversial movie.
In fact, that's why they bought it.
It is an openly transgender storyline.
The transgender actress is the main character.
And Netflix liked that, bought it because they thought it would appeal to Academy voters.
And it showed. 13 nominations, the most nominations of any film this year.
For that kind a movie not to get the level of scrutiny that I think it deserved from Netflix, I think is a mistake.
Now, you could not anticipate this kind of a situation.
It is the worst case scenario.
I had a guest on the town call Gascon a terrorist because she really did blow up this campaign.
And it wasn't just that there were bad tweets.
The tweets that were uncovered undermined the message of the film, one of acceptance, tolerance, of representation.
And these tweets were just so regressive.
This isn't the first time though, Matthew, that a film has suffered a serious PR hit during awards seasons though, is it?
No. I mean, there have been little micro controversies that have come up over the years.
There was a film about 10 years ago called The Birth of a Nation, which was directed by a young filmmaker named Nate Parker.
And that film sold at the Sundance Film Festival for what was then a record amount of money, and the studio behind it planned an Oscar campaign.
What they didn't plan was that there would be some news reports resurfaces that the filmmaker had been on trial in college for rape.
Nate Parker is on the brink of superstardom.
The rave reviews continue to pour in for his film The Birth of a Nation, but for some moviegoers, a troubling rape allegation from his past is making it difficult to support Parker in the present.
He was ultimately acquitted of that and he had denied that he was at fault at all.
But that also derailed the Oscar campaign and ultimately the film barely even got a release.
What about Green Book?
Green Book has been hit with controversy after controversy after controversy.
Because it had quite a lot of criticism as well.
First, Viggo Mortensen, the lead actor, he used the N -word on a panel for the film.
Then next, the Shirley family, who of course the film is about Don Shirley, they spoke out against the film saying that it was inaccurate and they had nothing to do with it.
And now we have two more huge controversies.
But you know, Matthew won Best Picture in the Oscars, so it survived.
Green Book is a great example of how the Academy voters tend not to care that much about these online controversies.
You know, oh, this film is not representative of a certain group or this person has said insensitive things in the past.
It didn't stick because it wasn't contrary to the narrative of the film in a way that Emilia Perez was.
This was just noise that was out there and Academy voters liked the movie, didn't care about the controversy and the noise and voted for it anyway.
So not all of these controversies actually stick.
Is there a credible argument, Matthew, to what some people say, which is that Gascon is being held to a different standard to other people?
I understand that argument and I don't agree with it because I think if anyone involved with Emilia Perez had had those tweets resurfaced, if it was Zoe Saldana, if it was Selena Gomez, if it was the filmmaker Odiard, if it was any of them that had those resurfaced, I think it would have absolutely
imploded the film's campaign.
they were so reprehensible and it wasn't a one -off it wasn't something that happened when this person was 15 years old it wasn't something that was easily explained away this was a barrage of really offensive messaging maybe there was more attention on it because this was the first transgender best
actress nominee but I think that any of the talent involved in any of these films would have suffered for those tweets.
And did she also suffer a bit because she was largely unknown?
She doesn't have a big body of work kind of propping her up and her reputation now.
Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
If it was Timothee Chalamet that had set those tweets, I think he would have had a really tough time and it probably would have been a much bigger deal.
The other thing about the Oscar season that is really interesting when it comes to controversies is people go from complete unknowns.
Sorry to use the pun of a movie.
They go from complete unknowns to ubiquitous in the course of five to seven months.
Carla Gascogne is a person that I had never heard of.
I assume most people in the film community in the U .S.
had never heard of.
But by the time these tweets were uncovered, this is a person that I knew pretty well through events, through media, through commercials, through a press campaign that Netflix had orchestrated precisely to bring attention to this person.
And this happens every year.
I remember back when Lupita Nyong 'o was an unknown actress.
She ended up winning and she's had a great career after that.
It adds a little bit of urgency to this need to check people's social media because what you post as an unknown person can come back to hurt you when you are a very famous person.
And that's what happened in this situation.
What about the movie itself though, Matthew?
Should Amelia Perez be condemned the entire movie and judged because of the actions of this one actress?
That is a very good question.
And I would argue no, that the art should speak for itself, that what the filmmaker was trying to accomplish with it will still endure, even though this controversy has surrounded it.
Unfortunately, that's not how Oscar voters vote.
In the history of the Academy Awards, the voters have over and over shown that they vote on the merits of the art, but they also vote on the narrative surrounding the movie.
And the narrative is created a number of different ways.
It is self -created.
It can be things that the candidate says at different award shows.
Look at what's going on with Demi Moore right now.
She's winning all these awards for The Substance, a great movie and a great performance, but there is also a narrative around her that she has been in this business for 40 years, has put in her time, she has never been nominated for an Oscar, and it's about time.
And I am so, so grateful that I have continued over these so many years to be able to try and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail, but to be able to keep going.
And I think that for Best Picture, you want to vote for something that you think is important.
And it's very difficult to put your heart behind a movie as much as you liked it, if you don't believe the narrative of the main character.
And the narrative is the stuff going on outside the movie.
Is their heart going to be behind Zoe Saldana though?
Because she seems to have escaped a lot of the controversy and she's doing well.
I think Zoe Saldana will end up winning.
And that's a perfect example is there's a feeling throughout Hollywood that she should not be punished for the actions of her co -star.
She's done everything right this season.
She's shaken all the hands.
She's showed up at all the awards ceremonies.
She's done the media.
She's had a great career and has never been honored in this way.
There is a sense that she's almost like a martyr in a way, that she's kind of suffered for this movie and being dragged down.
Voting for her is a way to honor the movie without voting for it for best picture.
And is it standard that along with all of the effort that she's put in, so has the marketing budget gone with her from Netflix?
Like it's really pivoted from Gascon to Zoe Saldana.
Is that standard practice?
They pivoted because they had to pivot because as a smart campaigner, it's like a political campaign.
If your vice president has a scandal, your ads don't focus on the vice president.
Your ads focus on other people in the campaign.
And that's exactly what happened in Netflix.
Amelia Perez, the character has sort of disappeared from the advertising of the movie called Amelia Perez.
It's focused almost entirely on Zoe Saldana, Selena Gomez, the music, the artistry of it.
Even at the SAG Awards, which is a key precursor, they completely erased Amelia Perez from the Amelia Perez promo.
Netflix has spent tens of millions of dollars on this campaign, designed to raise awareness of the movie and position it for awards voters.
They have to pivot.
If they have this controversy, they can't continue as if nothing has happened.
They have to respond.
When you talk to awards voters, they don't want to vote for this movie.
They got a really bad taste in their mouth from these comments.
Matthew, we think that Sofia Gascon is actually going to go to the Oscars.
How does that work?
Does she have Netflix backing?
Will she have money behind her to help her get ready for the night.
I mean, it's an expensive business.
It is. I mean, she could go on her own.
The nominees are invited to attend.
So it's not like she is banned or has to do anything to get invited.
The key, as you mentioned, is whether Netflix is going to support her going.
And my understanding is they are going to support her going to the Oscars.
They are going to fly her in and put her up just like the other talent.
I don't know how the financials work on the glam and getting ready.
I don't know how much Netflix will front on that.
Netflix was paying for her to have a PR person throughout the season.
That, I believe, is not happening anymore.
But they've decided that for the good of the movie, she is going to attend the Oscars.
She has not attended a number of other ceremonies like the BAFTAs or the SAG Awards.
But for the big one, for the Oscars, she will be there and presumably she will do the red carpet.
So that should be interesting.
It will be. And what about her future beyond the Oscars?
She's been cancelled for now.
Can she make a comeback?
Listen, Hollywood has a long tradition of forgiving and for allowing people to apologize, to move on.
So I think with a little time and with a little bit of coaching, perhaps she could apologize and come back.
We'll see. Matthew, great to have you with us on the pod.
Thanks so much. Thank you.
And thanks so much to you for listening.
If you want to get in touch, email us at theglobalstory at bbc .com, wherever you're listening in the world.
See you next time. global news podcast later.
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