Previously oncereal. Sicking my handout, Imean, good grief if anyone was standingoutside.
Cheeringup, we did this littledance.
I wonder how long my voice has been going on in Pakistan andAfghanistan.
Taiwan boat would comehome.
Question,Mike, youknow, the officers on yourface, how do they get their thoughts tosee?
I thought it was kind oflike, a Talibanguy.
From this American life in WB EasyChicago, it'scereal.
One story told week byweek.
I'm SarahCanneck. The way Bo talks to Mark about his time as aprisoner, it's almost as if it'sdivided.
There's year one when he's gatheringintel, planningescapes, focused on gettingaway, and then the rest ofit.
And the rest of it is four moreyears.
When his purpose is lesssharp, his hope isblurrier, there's lessaction.
Now he's got toendure. And that's in large part because after yearone, after Bo's nine-dayescape, the Taliban put him in acage.
And I immediately saw that there was no way of getting out of thatcage.
This is a metal cage or a wood cage orwhat?
Yeah, this is like an iron bar cage made for whatpurpose?
Or keeping me init. Bo says it was sixparts, four sides plus a top and abottom, made of quarter-inchbars.
It wascollapsible. So when they moved him to a newlocation, they'd rebuild the cage in whatever room they put himin, both in padlockedtogether.
Bo says if he stretched out hisarms, he could touch opposite sides of the cage with hisfingers.
Figures it was about six feetwide.
When Bo explains stuff likethis, I can pictureit.
I can of course understand what he'sdescribing.
But at some point Irealized, I don't actually understand what is goingon.
It was like the whole thing was overlaid with ascrim.
Where exactly ishe? Who exactly is holdinghim?
I couldn't tell what the Taliban and the counties wanted orexpected.
Why is he beingmoved? Why is he beingignored?
I couldn't tell if his treatment was senseless and haphazard or if it was part of aplan.
Both descriptions arevivid.
That's not theproblem.
The problem is they're mainly from inside aroom.
Bo couldn't see what was happeningoutside.
So I couldn't make order of it because Bo himself couldn't make order ofit.
But there's another guy who has a very good idea of Bo's place in the Hakanee WorldOrder.
His name is DavidRoad. David's an investigative reporter for Reutersnow, but back in2008, he was on leave from the New York Times researching a book aboutAfghanistan.
He deranged to interview a Taliban commander about an hour's drive south ofKabul, and he got kidnapped and handed over to the same people and pretty much the same place at close to the same time asBo.
Once I heard David'sstory, so much of Bo's story clicked into place forme.
Thelogistics, thelocations, theHakanees.
Many aspects of David's experience are really different fromBo's.
David's a civilian firstoff.
He's a journalist who already knew a lot about Afghanistan andPakistan.
He got free after about seven months versus nearly fiveyears.
And a hugedifference. David wasn'talone.
He was taken with twoAfghans, asod, adriver, andTahir, atranslator.
So he had someone to interpret whatever he didn'tunderstand.
Also, David wasn't blindfolded all thetime, really only when he was being moved to a differentlocation.
He wasn't chained or tiedup.
Inside the compounds he could walk around in thecourtyard.
He could have conversations with hisguards.
And I'm not bringing all that up to suggest some sort of grim hostagecontest.
Only to point out that while David wasimprisoned, he wasn't in thedark.
He wasn't in solitary confinement likeBo.
So he had an awareness Bo didn't have about the system he had enteredinto.
After they werecarjacked, David and a sod and Tahir were taken around Afghanistan for a fewdays.
And then they were told to get out of the car and start walking over somemountains.
The nextmorning, it's clear to David where heis.
For onething, the car that picks them up is driving on the left hand side of theroad, like they do inPakistan.
And soon afterthat, I saw a road sign inErdu, the national language ofPakistan.
And I knew we'd walked into the tribal areas over themountains.
And I knew we weredoomed.
That's the worst place you can be taken in the Afghanistan-Pakistanregion.
David knew how utterly dangerous the tribal areas in Western Pakistanwere.
In thisplace, it's really just over the mountains right near theborder.
And if you're imagining awild,desolate, inaccessibleterrain, it's not likethat.
David said compared to ruralAfghanistan, infact, a city like MiramShah, the capital of NorthWaziristan, where the Hakanis are based and where Bo was kept most of the time in or near MiramShah, there are more pavedroads, more largebuildings, moreschools.
It'sbustling, Davidsaid.
There's a market with people selling goods from Pakistanproper.
Imean, my kidnappers brought mebottled, Nestle water that was manufactured from a plant inLahore,Pakistan, one of the maincities, but they were able to buy it in the market in the tribalareas.
They bought me copies of this the most well-known English-language newspaper inPakistan,Dawn, another one's called theNews.
And they would be two or three daysold, but they could buy all these things in the market in the middle of the tribalareas.
There'skids, there'sfarmers, youknow, with donkeys and they're bringing in their crops tosell.
There's tons of Toyota station wagons that people drive on their own also serve astaxis.
Andit, youknow, became clear in those first few hours and then days and weeks that this was a Taliban mini-state that functioned openlythat, youknow, repaired roads and ran schools and had some sort of basic form of healthcare.
It wasn't this completely backward and area asit, youknow, is usuallydescribed.
And it's not like the Taliban are sort of skulking around dodging any Pakistani militarypresence.
David says that they're fully aware of eachother, maybe wary attimes, but also like waving to eachother.
As they drove around the tribal areas inWaziristan, North andSouth, David said there'd be regular checkpoints along the road that would normally be manned by Pakistani security orarmy.
Andinstead, there'd be young Taliban fighters withKalashnikovs, letting trafficthrough, not letting trafficthrough.
The driver of David's car had to have the right password to getby.
At one time I was being driven in a car and we ran into a Pakistani armyresupply,conboy.
And I thought this is this greatopportunity,maybe, youknow, the conboy will let us all get out of thecar, and we can make a run forit.
Andinstead, youknow, ourcar, the Taliban car just pulled over to the side of theroad.
Iremember, in front of us was a car full ofcivilians.
The civilians had to get out of the car and sort of put their hands up when the Pakistani army conboy wentby.
And the Pakistani soldiers did seem to be really afraid that there would be a car bomb or some sort of attack from one ofthese, youknow, vehicles on the side of theroad, includingours.
But, youknow, they just drove byus.
They never forced us to get out of ourcar.
And then the man driving mycar, he was like the number two commander of the Hakaninetwork.
His name was bottled inHakani.
He explained to me that the Hakanis had agreement with the Pakistaniarmy, that the Hakani vehicles just had to pull over to the side of theroad.
That no one had to get out of the Hakanicar.
And inreturn, the Pakistanis would not inspect thecar.
Andthat- How did they know whichone, how did they know which is a Hakani car and whichisn't?
Noidea. I just rememberwatching, Bauderen andHakani, the number two commander of that Hakaninetwork, smiling and waving to Pakistani soldiers that drove by in theirtrucks.
And my heart's sinking when I thought maybe they were going to rescueus.
Oh mygod. So they'rejust, it's justlike, just the word just like impunity is just jumping into myhead.
It'sa, it's atruce. Soit's, youknow, and you can ask me the question four times and I'll try to give you a pithyreversion.
But thequick, the easiest way to explain thisis,um,uh, seems like anyone I asked to explain what gives with the Hakanis operating so freely inPakistan, they have to take a deep breathfirst, because it isfraught.
It iscomplicated. And to do itjustice, it would take a longtime.
So I'm just going to give you the basics of what I'velearned.
Heregoes. The Hakanis are a family run operation and they're not onething, they're Islamicnationalists, they're a militantgroup, and they havebusinesses.
A New York Times story compared them to quote the sopranos of the Afghanistan warunquote.
They've got their ownalliances, their own source offunds, but they're also part of theTaliban.
They use the samestationery.
I'm not kidding aboutthat.
One expert told me their statements come out under the seal of the Islamic Emirate ofAfghanistan, same as the AfghanTaliban.
The Hakanis are the most militarily effective part of theTaliban, and they're the part of the Taliban that's most under control ofPakistan.
This one expert told mequote, youknow, they're justvery, very close to the Pakistanisunquote.
The Hakani family isAfghan, theirPashtun, their roots are over in coast province inAfghanistan, but they're headquartered inPakistan.
Back in the1970s, they were fighting the Afghan government and then later switched to fighting the Soviets when they invadedAfghanistan.
And by theway, we the US liked that they were fighting thecommunists, so in the early80s, we gave the millions of dollars to help them train fighters in NorthWaziristan.
We helped build themup.
As forPakistan, they tolerate all this because the Hakanis are useful tothem.
There are useful proxies in Pakistan's decades-long effort to influence events insideAfghanistan, to keep Afghanistan a manageableneighbor.
And stay withme. They're useful because they help prevent Pakistan's otherneighbor,India, from establishing any serious footholder influence inAfghanistan.
Pakistan has always seen India as its biggestthreat.
Here's David's valiant 30-secondexplanation.
The Pakistanimilitary, their goal is to stop India everywhere they can in SouthAsia.
So the Pakistani government allowed the Hakanis and the Taliban to operate because they saw them asallies.
They saw the Hakanis as a force that could allow Pakistan to remain in de facto control of Afghanistan and stop India from taking overAfghanistan.
I can say that in like three sentences instead often.
No, I liked yourten. Those aregood.
And this is alsoimportant.
The Hakanis help Pakistan deal with the other Taliban in theircountry, the PakistaniTaliban.
Because the Hakanis have good relations with the PakistaniTaliban, but the Pakistani Taliban does not have good relations with the Pakistanigovernment.
So that was the situation back in 2009 when Bo and David were held by theHakanis.
In the past couple yearsthough, Pakistan's strategy toward the Taliban has changedsomewhat.
Their bombing was there a stand probably rightnow.
If you've been reading thepaper, maybe you're caught up on allthis.
Ifnot, I have some phone numbers for experts you cancall.
David describes the Hakanis as an incredibly disciplined organized crimenetwork.
They were super careful not to use cell phones or communications devices that could betracked.
Hesaid, Bodred inHakanis, one of the topcommanders, would sometimes show up at a house where David was being held and he'd be completelyalone.
Because he figured the drones overhead would be looking for a commander moving around withbodyguards.
LikeBo, David and Assad and Tahir were moved all thetime.
As far as David cantell, the house-to-house system worked sort of like afranchise.
Each family that took them would get some share in theprisoners.
Either some money or maybe they had family members who wereprisoners, who they wanted released as part of a deal to exchangeDavid.
We're in houses from two to four to five weeks at atime.
And is there a logic to the moving that you candiscern?
Is it just like youcan't, you just can't stand one place for too long because you're going to be found out or is itlike...
I thinkthat, Imean, andagain, I have this huge advantage because I have these two Afghans that have been kidnapped withme.
And they're hearing all kinds ofconversations.
They're talking to the boys who bring inbread.
Andso, youknow, I was told now and then thatfamilies, youknow, would get tired of holding us because it was very dangerous forthem.
Everyone was very afraid there would be a drone strike to kill me and that all their family would bekilled.
When they held me in densely populatedneighborhoods, it was because the nearby children they hoped wouldprevent, youknow, the US from carrying out a drone strike to kill me because it would kill so many civilians at the sametime.
Are those like Hakanee family members orthey, like who are those people who are keepingyou?
Or do they just like bust into anyone's house and belike, allright, we're going to hang out here for a while and you're going to end up withit.
I think they only kept us in the homes of commanders and families that they felt they could trust the most because they were constantly terrified ofspies.
They were rounding up local people and accusing them of guiding drone strikes and hangingthem.
Oh mygod. The youngguards, particularly when we were staying in the intelligence commander's house would come home every day with the cell phones and possessions of men they had executed that day for being spies and guiding dronestrikes.
And is thatlike, did you know that at the time or is that something you understood onlylater?
No, they toldme. Imean,again, I was learning all this stuff through Tauhere.
And one of the last houses David was heldin, he met MulaSangin, the guy who'd later take charge of Bosecustody.
They only had oneconversation, but David said Sangin made animpression.
He seemed more radical than myguards.
Hewas, youknow,deeply,incredibly, and sort of angrilyanti-American.
And I cancheck. I think that there was a joke one of his men made about killing me or chopping my head off or something likethat.
It was much more aggressive than othercommanders.
Ohreally? The executionvideos, thesickness, the constant toying with you about whether they're going to let yougo, whether they're going to killyou.
And the cultural chasm between us andthem, David talks about allthat.
And it echoes so squarely with what Bosesays.
As my captivity wenton, they were more and more angry at me because they weren't getting the money or prisoners orfame.
Theywanted, and they sort of became more and more disgusted with me that I was sort of dirty because I was anon-believer, because I wasn'tMuslim.
Muslim, I wasimpure, and the reason I was having stomach problems in diarrhea wasbecause, youknow, I wasn't aMuslim, it wasn't because of the conditions we were being heldin.
And eventually they sortof, youknow, ordered me to stop washingdishes.
That was one of the things I did to sort of appease them and stayalive.
And then they stopped wanting to eat near me because I was this sort of dirty animal in theirminds.
And in one of the more amazingmoments, it was an olderman.
He came in and he sort of lectured the younger guards that they shouldn't see me asdirty.
Ohreally? And hesaid, youknow, David is God'screation.
And he tookthis, he said he would take this piece of bread he washolding.
And I could eatit. David can eat this piece of bread and take it out of his mouth without swallowingit.
And the man said he would take that piece of bread and then place it in his ownmouth, because that's what the prophettaught.
Then you should treat allhumans, youmainly.
God, that's sointeresting.
Why do you think he cared how they thought ofyou?
Well, I thinkthat, Imean, this is themoment.
There's a civil war in the Islamic world for the interpretation of hisfaith.
And I saw examples of theIslam, the moderateIslam, I saw a practice in Bosnia and Pakistan and Afghanistan andIraq.
So there was this one older man who said that tothem, but he was surrounded by theseyoung, deluded men whose whole identitywas, youknow, that there was only this strict interpretation ofIslam, that anyone who didn't follow their interpretation of Islam deserved todie.
Anyone wholived, they literally told me that anyone who lived under the Karzai government in Afghanistan or the Musharraf government in Pakistan were non-believers and deserved to dieMuslims.
Right. Those are infidels aswell.
Everyone. And they wereworse.
They hated my two Afghan colleagues more than they hated me because theywere, they werenot, when I'm notfaking, I can't remember all these wordsanymore, but they weretraders.
Did you ever have like substantive conversations with anyone who was holding you about like thefirst, the first three days it was all about the war and why the Americans had come in 9-11 and my bookand, youknow, I told them about the reporting I'd done in Bosnia exposing the mass executions of thousands of Muslims and I remember after I told them about my reporting inBosnia, theysaid, that'sgood.
That means you're worth moremoney.
Oh,man.Like, that's not the point of mystory.
You missedit. But there wasno, Imean, itwas, youknow, there was no kind of rationalconversation.
Bow and David did not overlap in Hakaneecustody.
David escaped onenight, along with Tahir from the compound where they were beingheld, and they made their way over to a Pakistani military base about a half mileaway.
They wererescued. David and Tahir got out on June20th,2009.
Bow was captured just 10 dayslater.
David's never metBow. He's never talked toBow, but he says he feels linked tohim.
In ourinterview, he kept coming back somewhat guiltily to how much better he had at thenBow.
Obviously, he knows it's not his fault what happened toBow, but he feelsbad.
He said as soon as he heard a US soldier had been grabbed by these samepeople, he worried that he'd be treatedharshly.
Inpart, because David was treatedwell, which helped him getaway.
Sami Yusuf'sside, the Afghanreporter, told me he did hear that after Davidescaped, there were all kinds of rumors and accusations flying around that someone had been paidoff.
There's infighting between the Hakanees and the other Taliban that the Hakanees couldn't betrusted.
One news report said the Hakanees suspected the Taliban guards had taken abribe.
Maybe there was a traitor amongthem.
Soyeah, it does seem they weren't planning on letting it happentwice.
Thenagain, maybe Bow's rough treatment had more to do with the fact that he had tried to escape from them right away that firstweek.
Andalso, one intel guy toldme, the Hakanees are savvy enough to know the difference in terms ofrisk, in terms ofdanger, in terms ofvalue, between an American journalist and an Americansoldier.
In thebeginning, it seems that perhaps Sangin and the Hakanees were looking for a quick and easy deal to get rid ofBow.
Sami Yusuf's side did an interview for us in Dubai with a high level Taliban guythere.
This guy wasn't directly involved with the negotiations forBow, but he heard about it from the people who wereinvolved.
What this Taliban told Sami is that initially they wantedransom, maybe some prisoners from an Afghanjail, which is what they'd also been asking for in David Rhodescase.
But then somehow the Taliban gets word from theAmericans, and it's not clear how or from whomexactly.
But the storyis, they get word that the Americans aren't going to payransom, which was true by theway.
Andfurthermore, that they're not going to free any prisoners because they're not too concerned with getting Bowback.
That if they can tolerate the deaths of hundreds of American soldiers inAfghanistan, one soldier in captivity isn't that big a deal for the USArmy.
And thismessage, if it reallycame, but apparently Sangin gotupset.
And his positionwas,well, then why are we wasting our time and ourresources?
Let's just killhim. And that's when this guy told Sami thatsomeone, a well-connected person inPakistan, toldSangin, don't killhim.
Sittight.That's, don'tworry, keep theguy, this is a worthdeal.
Don't getupset, don't lose yourpatience.
This is importantprison.
And afterthat, they're justokay.
The Hakanis are willing towait, which means Bow alsowaits.
One defense official toldme, if you could set aside the circumstances of Bow'scapture, which of course youcan't, but if youcould, Bow would be a huge success story for theArmy.
This 23-year-oldkid, with notraining, manages not only tosurvive, but to resist as aPOW.
And mostextraordinary,perhaps, he doesn't alone inisolation.
There's no one else in the recent history of the Army with a story likethat.
TerrenceRussell, those principaldebriefer, testified at a military hearing inSeptember.
Russell is an undisputed expert on thisstuff.
During hiscareer, he's debriefed or interviewed about 125POWs, possibly more than anyone in thecountry.
At thehearing, Russell wasasked,basically, how bad did Bow haveit?
And Russell said you'd have to go back to the jungle camps of Vietnam to begin tocompare.
Quote, Sergeant Bergdahl'sexperience, and I don'tknow,sir, that I can give you apercentage, but his experience ranks at the same echelon of the most horrible conditions of captivity that we've seen in the last 60years.
After Bow was rescued and they took him to a hospital inGermany, Bow asked them to take the clock off the wall in the room he wasin.
He didn't deal withtime, seeing it delineated likethat.
It had taken him years as a captive to wean himself off oftime.
Often when he was locked in whateverroom, there might be a light on all the time or not atall.
The clock and the calendar became bendy andtroublesome.
Months anddays, weeks and months don't really matter because the only thing you can really understand is how long the seconds arelasting.
That's what hits you toartists.
It's just theseconds. What do youmean?
Imean, it'sjust, youknow, you're not intomorrow.
You're not in nextweek.
You're not in nextmonth.
You're in thissecond. And it can last aneternity.
It'sjust, I was feeling everysecond.
And the fact that there was nothingthere, Imean, you can forget about time when you were able to distract yourself with reading a book or doing something that you that concentrates yourminds.
But we don't have any ofthat.
You're just sittingthere.
And it turnsinto, youknow,repetition, your mind turns into a broken recordalmost, looping because at some point you have only so much to thinkabout.
Right. You run out ofideas.
Yeah.Yeah. Youknow, I knew in thatsituation, there's only certain things that you're going to thinkabout.
Suchas, will I get foodtoday?
Who will give it tome? Why did the girl who gave it to me yesterday lookannoyed?
Why aren't they giving it tome?
Is there something I can do to make them give it tome, but not make it look like I'm trying to getit?
And by theway, depriving someone of any discernible schedule is a time-honored method of keeping your prisonercompliant.
Bose said it was maddening the obsessivethoughts.
Maybe he'd do an abbot in Castello Bitt in his head or that line from the Johnny Cashsong, I fell into a burning ring offire.
He said he couldn't remember therest.
Or he'd look and look and look at the room aroundhim.
Not in search of somethingnew, just because that's all he had to lookat.
Yeah, I look at one thing and then I look at anotherthing.
I'll just keep looking back and forth for differentthings.
Youknow, just keep scanning thewall, just keep scanningit, youknow, whatever itis, the doorway with thecracks.
Youknow, thedarkness, you're looking atshadows, you're not looking atshadows, if it's toodark, and you can't seeanything, but you're stillmoving, you're stillcutting, you're looking at yourhand, but you can't see yourhand, so you're touching yourface.
If you're thinking maybe Bowencrazy, hedidn't, he says hedidn't, it might have been a little easier if hehad, but hedidn't.
Infact, a psychologist we talked to who was on a seer team that planned for Bosereturn, he said that they assume if you survivedcaptivity, you're more or less psychologicallyhealthy.
PTSDmaybe, but notcrazy, because as soon as you start to lose yourmind, your chances of surviving godown, if youspend,say, five years trying to getfood, trying to getwater, trying toescape, you need to keep your mind intact for allthat.
Still, sanity in Bose situation is psychologicallyexhausting, because you're simultaneouslybored,afraid, and hyperaware, a combination other POWs havedescribed.
Markasked,bow, did you tell yourselfstories, did you try to disappear into yourimagination?
Andsurprisingly, Bose said notreally.
Infact, he said he'd force himself to stay in thepresent, not succumb to what he calls his fantastic storybooktendencies, since that's partly what got him in trouble in the firstplace.
Andanyway, even if he'd wanted to driftoff, often he justcouldn't, he says he didn't have a choice aboutit.
Pain, hesaid, is a greatdistractor.
He might spend an entire day just dealing with hisfeet, or the cramps fromdehydration, or fromstarvation.
His body was demanding his full immediateattention.
Bose says even when he was kind of ready to giveup, his body wasstubborn,nagging, doing its ownthing.
I'll tell youthat, only reason why I'm still here is simply because my body didn'tquit.
When foodcame, he ateit.
His body just tookit. He'd be socold, but his body would struggle to getwarm.
When they moved mearound, they'd put a girl's dress overme, and then they'd put a burko overme.
And then because anything Itouched, because I'm aninfidel, or I'm acover, or whatever you want to callit, everything I touched isdirty.
So they'dleave,thankfully, they left the dress in the burko in theroom, so I was able to use that aswarm, but even withthat, wrapped around myshoulders.
Did you ever ask for more blankets and stuff likethat?
I never asked forone, but there was a guy whowas, youknow, he wasn't a badguy, he ended up giving me an extrablanket.
I don'tknow, Imean,everybody, he would have some gooddeeds, youknow?
Goodqualities, especially if somebody'shelpless,hopeless, and introubles, youknow.
I can't say forsure, ofcourse, but I think it's possible the guy who gave Bo the blanket was a cook named BobBrock.
Sammy interviewed him for Mark'scompany, pageone, he was an olderguy, maybe50,unmarried.
He'd known the Hakanis a longtime, he cooked for them and their people for manyyears.
He said he'd once made lunch for Osama binLaden.
He'd retired and moved back to his village from MiramShah, but he told Sammy that one day a few yearsago, he got a call to come do ajob.
He's met by MullahSangin, who takes him to our remotefarmhouse.
There's noroad, you have to hike way out toit.
And I'm notsure, but it's possible this place was somewhere in the ShawalValley, a couple hours from MiramShah.
Sangin gives him an AK-47 and tells him the whole area ismined, don't leave thehouse, and if you see anyoneapproach,shoot.
Inside thehouse, Bob Brock says he sees hisguests, by guests he meansprisoners, a blue eyed foreigner in one small darkroom, and some rich Afghan guy in anotherroom.
He said they were all stuck out there in thewild, the twoprisoners, threeguards, and BobBrock.
The guards weren't allowed walkie-talkies orphones, a couple of times a week someone might showup, they'd use a code word to be letin.
In Sammy'snotes, Bob Brock sounds like he was more than a little freakedout.
He says the only thing we could hear there was noise ofdrones, dangerous animal cries atnight, and scary deepdarkness.
Yeah,yeah, this mountain does a nighttime is quitescary, youknow, it's veryscary.
All kind of badanimals, and drone is 24 hour like makingbuzz,buzz,buzz, and they wereworried.
Maybe there was a red orsomething, but you could not leave everything likethat, because they were trusted by thecommandant.
Bob Brock's firstmenu, hesaid, was potato withgravy,yogurt, andnone.
He said they kept one plate aside for bow since he wasn'tMuslim.
No one else would eat off thatplate.
Bob Brock said the Afghan prisoner was chatty andfunny, but that he couldn't communicate withbow.
He could see though that bow wasn't doingwell, wasn't eatingmuch, which isn't insults of thecook, by theway.
Bob Brock told Sammy he wasn't sure if bow didn't like the food or just needed autensil, so he finds a spoon forhim.
And hesaid, Imean, everytime, ofcourse, he was trying to saysomething, but we don't understand or our English was notgood.
And hesaid, sometime I really wish I could understand he was trying to saysomething.
And next time I brought a lot of things forhim, and he didn't pick up nothing ofthem, youknow, like I brought aparaestermol, like that he may be sick or some otherstuff, whatever Ihave.
The tabletpainkiller, he says in thenotes, itsays, one day he was asking mesomething, I brought numbers of things at the nextarrival, but he did not take either of it and waslaughing.
Yeah, I brought himsalt, a tablet of painkiller andblanket.
Yeah, so he's trying it because he was an oldman, youknow, he was trying to understand to give himsomething.
Americanwas,oh, I think it meanssitting, the American was sitting in thebeginning, most of thetime, he put his head on hisknees, the number of times I entered this lockup room and he remained with his head down on hisknees.
Yeah,yeah, that's what Imean, maybe hedoesn't, Imean, maybe he was verysad,depressed, youknow, that's why he put his head in hisknees.
And then hesaid, hesays, at thestart, he was used to coming to the door to breathe fresh air and seelight, but then he gives up and stays in hisplace.
Then he gave up and stayed in hisplace.
Yeah. There are lots of images outthere, many of themhorrifying, ofcaptives, usuallyWesterners, about to beexecuted, wearing orangejumpsuits, a la guantanamoubae.
The symbolism is so clear and soloud.
But until I heard Bo talk about hiscaptivity, I hadn't realized just how present guantana mou and other US prisons are for theseguys.
But it comes up all thetime, not just in displays of broad politicaltheater.
The topic is woven all through Bo's story and in David Rhodestoo.
Sammy talked to another guy named Badr ZamanBadr.
Both Badr and his brother Abdul Rahim MuslimDoast, they've spent a few years imprisoned atGuantanamo.
According to what Badr toldSammy, his brother Muslim Doast met Bo in2010.
He went to his room and he said I should treat him like the way I was treated by American Guantanamoubae.
He says the American way up into the location was sostrange.
So I also was asking him like strangequestion.
Likewhat? Like asking how many dogs do youhave?
How many eggs do youhave?
Do you havechicken? Do you have aday?
Just likenonsense. Questions that seem completelywrong.
He said he had a translator aswell, but he said who could speak English little bit because he learned Guantanamoubae.
He said at some point he had a debate with a Bergadal and told him why you are inAfghanistan, why you came to Afghanistan and Bergadal said I'm defliy by Americanforces.
I'm not a decision maker and I wasdefliy.
Right, like it's on myfault.
I just did what I was told kind ofthing.
Yeah, and he says I told him you can simply say no and leave all we didn't comehere.
Bada's Amin Bada happens to be a guy I also talked to for a story I worked on back in2005.
He's Afghan and he and hisbrother, a poet andjournalist, were living inPakistan.
They pissed off some important people with theirwriting, much of which wassatirical.
Pakistani authorities arrested them and turned them over to us forces and we sent them to Guantanamou.
Muslim Do'st wasn't much of a terrorist backthen, but it seems we might have turned him intoone.
He's reportedly working as an ISIS recruiternow.
David said the people holding him would tell him we're treating you well because we're better than theAmericans.
We treat our prisoners better than Americans treat their prisoners in Guantana mou andamgrib.
In Bose casethough, that rationale seemed to work inreverse.
Forinstance, the guy who repeatedly torturedBo.
Bose as a man would come into theroom.
He never saw his face because either Bo would be blindfolded or the guy's face was covered with acloth.
Bo would be handcuffed sitting cross-legged on thefloor.
Bose as the guy would pin his legsdown, push him against awall, and then cut his chest with a razorblade.
Don't think one or two cuts at atime.
Think like probably between 60 to 70 cuts at atime.
Oh mygod.Yeah. And they did itslowly.
It hurtsmore, ofcourse, if you do itslowly.
Bo said he lost count how many cuts after it reached600.
And would he would he would did he speak English enough to tell you why he was punishingyou?
No, he wouldn't speakEnglish.
He'd mutter things in pushtoo.
A lot of like spazia and you know things likethat.
What is spaziamean? Spazia is life of adog.
LikeWIFE?Yeah,wife. Ohman.
I'm sure they got all the ticker pull insults anddonkeys,rocks, yourcover.
It was morelike, it was more along the lines of revenge typething.
Yeah, for whatthough? That's what I'masking.
For being American for all the things that Americans have done in their country for all the things that you know we're done the guys in Guantanamo and background and allthat.
You know the waterboarding thedog, the you know the isolation chambers and how to deprive the food deprivation and sleepdeprivation.
All thosethings. Those were the that was the list of things that they all talked about whenever it came around to Guantanamo and background and allthat.
And what would you say in response tothat?
I wouldn't sayanything.
Usually with one wayconversations.
I just listen to them and you know make you go write itout.
You wait itout. You'd like not or would you at least say I understand I hear you and stuff likethat.
Yeah, I would not understanding what they'resaying.
That's what they want toacknowledge.
So that's what I givethem.
Yeah. Youknow. When Bo was in the cage and again it's a metal cage padlocktogether.
He still made one last impudent attempt atescape.
He says he did it because he was soangry.
He could not stand the idea of these guyswinning.
He says it was in his second to lastyear.
One of the guys that spoke English came to tellme.
Um basically came to laugh at me and he waslike, oh we're not really in order to exchangeyou.
The Taliban is waiting for all theprisoners.
Youknow, all the prisoners to be all the Muslims around the world to bereleased.
Youknow, youknow, youknow,see, he came there to just mess withme.
So Igot, youknow, I got really angry aboutthat.
And so what they had done when they moved me to this last place was they actually put part of the board down in thecage.
Or I could actually walkaround.
After the guyleft, Bo decided to risk lifting the particle board away from the cagefloor.
He'd realized the only flaw in the cage was the shoddy welding downthere.
He thought if he could rust the welds with spit orwater, he could maybe get a few of the bars free and squeezeout.
But because of the cold anddamp, the particle board hadexpanded.
So he gets it maybe halfwayup, but then he can't get it back down in place to hide what he's trying todo.
He thinks if he softensit, maybe he can shave off the edges and get it to go backdown.
So he puts water onit, which just makes it swell evenmore.
And that begins a fight with the particle board that lasts allnight.
Allnight, he's using a triple A battery hehad.
He'd popped off the top and flattened it and sharpened it against thecage.
And now he's using it to try to shave down the particleboard.
And every noise hemakes, he'sscared.
Someone's going to hear and come in and then who knows what the consequences wouldbe, but verybad.
Then he can't get the board backdown.
The idea of losing that onechance.
And I don't know how to explainit, but in that night it left me exhausted and just drains for likemonths.
I don't think I ever came back fromit.
I never stopped putting water on thebars.
I never stopped trying toescape, but it just that night seemed to burn something out ofme.
Yeah, that never cameback.
I just lost something inside of me that I don't know how theyexplain, but it wasjust.
Nothing's been matteranymore.
By his last year and a half as aprisoner,Moses, his daily conversation had funneled down to a fewwords.
He'dsay, that'sfine. That'sgood.
Or he'dsay,OK, orunderstood.
That wasit. In2011, a diplomat named Mark Grossman came in as the State Department's special representative to Afghanistan andPakistan.
At thatpoint, the US government knew Bo was with the Hakanis inPakistan.
Grossman said he'd often bring up Bo with the Pakistanis in those years in meetings with the ForeignSecretary, the PrimeMinister, thePresident, the Army Chief ofStaff.
According toGrossman, their response wasconsistent.
We'resympathetic. If we hearanything, we'll let youknow.
We'll do what wecan. It makes youwonder, what were we doing to get Boout?
How hard were wetrying?
You had a bureaucracy that was broken anda, youknow, a feelingof,well, he's a traitoranyway.
So, tome, that was probably the most destructive part of getting him home was just thatconclusion.
Always atraitor. Next time oncereal.
Cereals produced by JulieSnyder, Dana Chivasanme and Partnership with MarkBowle, MeganEllison, HugoLindgren, JessicaWeisberg, PageOne, and Anna PartaPictures.
Ira Glass is our editorialadvisor, Whitney Dangerfield is our digitaleditor, research by KevinGarnett, fact checking by MichelleHarris, copy editing by AnnaHidalani.
Our music is composed by NickThorburn, FritzMyers, and MarkPhillips, the show is mixed by KateBalinsky, Kristen Taylor's our communityeditor, other cerealstaff, SethLind, EmilyCondon, EliseFerguson, and KimberlyHenderson.
Special thanks this week to TamaraLondon, GlennPalmer, ArnieRubin, RobertCruz, KevinDanahir, TimMontenuel, MarkRabenhorst, AlexTate, DanMarkey, and JeffMann.
Our website iscerealpodcast.org.
In thisweek, we've got a great 3D map that flies over North and South wasirustan, part of the tribal areas of Pakistan where Bow washeld.
If you want to know more about DavidRhodes,Kidnapping, andEscape, he and his wife wrote a book about it called A Rope at aPrayer.
You can find a link to it on ourwebsite.
Again, that'scerealpodcast.org.
Stay tuned for a preview of our nextepisode, butfirst.
Cereals are production of This American Life and WB EasyChicago.
Coming up on the next episode ofcereal.
We're talking about a recovery situation that was so complicated that nobody knew how to even begin to unravelit.
Our niche job is to findhostages.
If you just want a few examples inGA,DIA,CIA,FBI,NSA.
There have to be some political pressure to make thathappen.
And that's where you comein.
I want to know everythingabout, youknow, potential terrorist networkhere.
What do the capture networks looklike?
Where are the likely places that they would take ahostage?
Soanyway, I did pickup.
And he's speaking inPashto.
It was verypromising. I was not able to understandit, except for hesaid,so,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah.
