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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know.
A production of iHeartRadio.
Hey and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Benz here too.
That makes this a good old rousing edition of Stuff You Should Know.
Philosophy Now Edition.
Yeah, I mean, I apologise to Josh, I might as well say it now.
I may be a little rough in this one because my brain breaks a little bit when we have these philosophy subjects.
And even though I made an A in the only philosophy class I took in college, which I've said before, it's only because I was so frustrated by it, I worked really, really hard to try and understand it and ended up getting an A.
But it breaks my brain a lot of times.
Oh, okay. I got you. Well, you didn't end that sentence under normal circumstances.
No. But good for you, pal.
For powering through that class and not just being like, well, I guess I'll take a zero in this one again.
Or drop it in that first week.
I did a lot of that. I did that once in astronomy.
I was like, wait, why are you using like the Greek symbol for Epsilon and Sigma in this?
Like, I thought we were going to talk about Mars and stuff and now I got rid of that really quick.
Yeah. Good job. I kind of, I think, have a bit of a grasp on the philosophy of it.
What I had trouble with was some of the studies, like actual research on it.
So we'll just model through.
It will be fun. Sometimes those are the most enjoyable episodes.
Sometimes there are worse.
Let's find out which way this one goes.
Yeah. What we're talking about is something we've talked about on the show before.
I wish I could remember which episode.
But we've definitely talked about the call of the void.
What the French call? Appel du Vied.
Or high place phenomenon.
And that is the idea that, and it's not just the desire to maybe hurl yourself off the top of the building if you're standing or a bridge, if you're standing at top of high structure.
That's the famous thing.
But it can also mean. Yeah.
That's the one we're going to concentrate on.
But it can also mean. And I know this is what we talked about before because I talked about like grabbing the cops gun or driving into oncoming traffic.
That very amazing scene from Christopher Walken and Annie Hall.
Where he's talking about, you know, swarving into oncoming traffic is so good.
And they smash cut, you know, to him driving.
What do you, what do you in Annie home?
It's just one of the great movie jokes.
But, you know, that's the idea is this weird urge.
I know it was an on episode of Louis as well.
I'm trying to think if I can think of any more canceled filmmakers.
Right. Exactly. Roman Poehansky did a short on at once.
But you know, it was in both of those things.
And yeah, it's this weird desire to be like standing at top of a tall structure and be like, I could just jump right now and see what's out there.
Yeah. So that's a, I think that's the most common phenomenon of the call of the void just occurring to you that you could do this.
It can get worse though, too, because some people not only experience that notion occurring to them, they experienced something akin to an urge.
So much so that sometimes people will like push themselves away from the edge.
They might like go back into whatever stairwell they just came out of because they don't want to accidentally or inadvertently don't trust themselves not to follow that urge.
That's when it gets really scary.
And if you think about it, we humans have a real tendency towards self preservation.
We fight to live sometimes to degrees that surprise ourselves afterward, you know?
So that makes the call of the void completely nonsensical.
It makes zero sense whatsoever that you would have an urge to just end it all for no reason just because it's there, just because there's a huge void there jumping into it because it occurred to you.
So the fact that this is a fairly common phenomenon, it bears investigating.
And so psychologists have gotten into it philosophers have gotten into it.
Like you said, Woody Allen's gotten into it.
It's a thing for sure. And I love the fact that it's a mystery because no one's actually successfully explained it.
And I don't know if we ever will and for my money, I don't really want to.
What understand it? Yes, because I throw, I cast my lot with the philosophers.
I think Kierkegaard and Sart nailed it, but it's still, I mean, you don't prove things with philosophy.
It's just like, what about this?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we'll get to statistics and how they align with, you know, legitimate suicidal ideation later, probably in the last part, but just among the two of us, I know, I said this before with that when we talked about it before, but I have felt the call of the void many, many times.
And for me, it's not, I could just end it all, but it's more like, it's hard to, and maybe that's one of the frustrating things.
It's really hard to explain what's going through my head.
It's sort of like, no one can stop me from doing this.
And I could, I could know what that feels like to fall.
Part of it is I had a very tragically had a friend fall off a building to his death.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So there's a little bit of that like, I would want to know what Aaron felt like and like how scary that was as an empathetic thing.
So there's a lot of things in my head.
None of that explains why I want to grab the cops.
It's about to ask that. I've never really felt the driving into the other lane thing, but I just, I don't know, it's really fascinating to have these thoughts pop into your head when normally, you know, you're the kind of person that would never entertain anything like that.
Yeah. So you just set a mouthful.
Essentially the call of the void can be, can, can come from, it can come out of nowhere, which makes it an intrusive thought in a lot of situations.
Other times it can be triggered by the situation like you're not going to think about driving into oncoming traffic while you're, you know, in your chemistry class.
Right. Like it's while you're driving, right?
So there's some that are triggered by circumstances.
And then you also said that you're like, you're basically you're horrified by the idea.
You're even having this thought.
It's just totally out of character for you.
So you put all that together.
You have what essentially is the call of the void.
And I say we go up to the tee and put the little baseball or whistleball on top of the tee and knock it out of the park with the philosophers first.
All right. I will say this that the Kierker guard stuff really spoke to me.
Me too. We're talking about Danish philosopher.
Seren, I guess. I don't know what the null sign means.
So it's like an umlaut. Okay.
So Seren basically, I guess he talked about this idea that the call of the void illustrates anxiety.
And in his case, and this is the part that really spoke to me, he argued that and I think he's dead right actually is that fear is when outside forces are scaring you.
That could harm you from the outside.
Anxiety is when that's dirt inward and that's emerging from your, the threat is coming from within their inside the house basically and that houses your brain.
So the freedom to the freedom of choice in life to move about the world and just to choose what you do for a moment to moment, you're constantly making choices without knowing necessarily what the right thing to do was.
So an anxiety can come from what he called the dizziness of freedom of that freedom specifically.
Yeah, exactly. And it's just the basis of anxiety is having those choices, not knowing what's right like you said.
And that because our lives are filled for moment to moment with making a choice, not making a choice, which still is a choice, just as Getty Lee, um, that of course it's going to create anxiety, which means anxiety is the human condition.
It's almost the basis of the human condition is what he was saying.
So he kind of used that or use the call of the void to kind of demonstrate that, um, essentially saying that you, when you're up there on a precipice, you're aware that you have the choice to just throw yourself over and just realizing that that is a choice that you can make right then.
Like you said, no one's going to stop you.
Um, having that freedom is, it's too much.
We like to, we like to think that, you know, we don't have choices that we have metal, we have a self preservation drive.
We have all this stuff that would prevent us from even ever considering that.
And yet whenever we experience the call of the void, it is by definition, experience, experiencing that urge like the realization that we can choose that.
And that's what Kierkegaard kind of kicked the whole thing off with.
I think in the 1850s, when you, when you use that to illustrate anxiety in humans, can we have a quick side chat?
Yeah. What do they call them?
Not diversions. Uh, uh, tangents?
Yeah. One of our tangents about rush.
Okay. Did you hear me very quickly say Nealpert?
No, I didn't. You said getty Lee.
Okay. Well, Nealpert wrote that.
Oh, okay. So I just quickly pointed that out, but that's not what I was trying to point out.
Okay. On that record, and I remember this specifically, my brother and I were listening to and looking over that LP, which you do when, what is that spirit of radio?
Uh, yeah. And the record is the lyric, um, and if you choose not to decide, well, first of all, if you're not a rush fan, the lyric that they recorded was if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
Um, I feel like you have to say it like getty Lee.
Still out made a choice.
Beautiful. Uh, so they, uh, recorded it like that.
Uh, Nealpert was their lyricist, but on the record, my brother and I noticed it says, if you choose not to decide, you cannot have made a choice.
Oh, well, they got that wrong.
They, it was like on the album and he, my brother looked at me and laughed and like mimic to getty Lee, like crossing it out with a pencil.
Like, well, Nealpert wasn't looking and that is just always stood out to me.
It's hilarious. So it did Nealpert write most of their lyrics or was it just, yeah, he was their lyricist.
I didn't know that. Okay.
Isn't that crazy? Yeah.
But yeah, he got that wrong big time.
Uh, so back to it, um, from Kierkegaard along those same lines, um, you talked about, is it Sart?
That's what I've always said.
Yeah. He doesn't care. Okay.
He's dead. Jean Paul Sart, S-A-R-T-R-E, another philosopher.
Um, he talked about that as the vertigo of possibility.
Uh, basically the same idea is Kierkegaard with, with, of like a literal dizziness of possibilities and um, he, he kind of lean more into the, you know, the, the, the freedom about questions of our human experience.
And he went down a different road than Kierkegaard ultimately did, but they both sort of referred to it as a literal dizziness.
Yeah. For sure. Because a lot of people do experience something akin to vertigo when they're looking down from a high place, even if they're not afraid of heights, right?
Oh, I, I, I for sure do. Yeah.
So, um, it does make sense that they would both use that.
But Sart was definitely doing a big yes, A-N, to Kierkegaard.
And I think he even calls out Kierkegaard in the section of being a nothingness, right?
But his whole jam that he kind of took the point that he took it to was not only are you realizing like you have this freedom of choice, you also realize that your future self has that same freedom of choice.
Right. And you, the one who's making this choice right now, not to leap over this precipice for no good reason, has zero control over whether you in the future, future you is going to make that same choice or not.
And that is a reason to be terrified of being alive, essentially is what Sart said.
Right. Yeah, I mean, not, not quite multiverse stuff, but it's sort of along the same lines, like almost future, um, future multiverse maybe.
Yeah. But what he was saying also is a lot like Kierkegaard, like life is made up of choices, moment to moment to moment.
And his whole thing is like there's no solid self.
There's no, there's no you that exists, you know, when you're born or even after you develop a little bit to the time you die, you are constantly, you have to constantly keep the self going by making essentially the same decisions over and over again.
And if you don't have the same experience, say like, uh, terror when you're up on a precipice and decide not to jump, if the next time you're up there and you're not terrified, you feel like what's it like to fly?
You might make the same decision, even though it's out of character with how you were before, but the self is that fluid essentially is what he was saying.
Yeah. And he sort of related that to gambling or the gambler who, um, you know, like an addictive gambler who quits gambling.
And you know, let's say years later, they walk by a gambling table and instead of seeing the gambling table and immediately thinking like, God, that's the worst thing that ever happened to me.
Um, the reaction is, well, that was sort of a, a memory of a feeling that I had.
And, uh, in order to get back that true feeling of I shouldn't do this, I can only do that by doing it again.
Uh, it's sort of like a, not quite like rose color glasses, but I think everyone's sort of had that same feeling about an X before years later where you're like, I feel like what was so bad about that?
And like, should I, should I give them a call?
When in fact, it was a terrible situation.
And like to, to give them a call and trying, I mean, John Q.
Sack made a whole movie about it, uh, to go back to and revisit like the X girlfriends and it's just constantly reminded like the gambler would be of like, no, this was a bad idea 20 years ago.
It's not a good idea now.
It's still right. And the same thing holds you for like smoking or something like that.
Like when you decide to quit smoking, quick gambling, break up, like you're in a certain experience, right?
Then that you don't necessarily feel or experience a year later.
So you have to remind yourself like to make that same decision again.
Your future self could make a different decision than you did right then and you have no control over it.
I know. Pretty awesome, right?
Uh, should we break or should we talk about Gary Cox?
Let's finish with Gary Cox real quick because I like this guy's gym.
The cut of his jib. He's a British philosopher.
We can pronounce his name.
So that's a plus. And he looks at it more as an existentialist kind of thing where, uh, we have these psychological defenses that we construct against thing, but they're basically just all in illusion.
It's things that we make up, um, to fool ourselves into thinking we have an instinct for self preservation.
Yeah. And he's saying that what Kierkegaard and Sartre both saying is essentially that we, when we experience the call of the void, that what's called bad faith as far as existentialists are concerned anytime we dilute ourselves, it's a bad faith illusion essentially.
Um, that, that all of those are, are just essentially us diluting ourselves in its laid bare by the call of the void.
Like the only reason you're not jumping right now is not because you have this self preservation instinct is not because you don't want to do that to your family or anything like that.
It's because you are choosing right then not to jump.
That's it. That's the only thing that's preventing you from jumping right then.
And that scares the bejesus out of anybody who has a brain in their head when they experience the call of the void.
Especially when it's accompanied by the urge to jump, not just the thought of jumping.
Yeah. So shall we break now?
Yes. Look at that whiff of all go.
We knocked it out of the park.
We'll, we'll come back and we'll talk about these intrusive thoughts that people are having right after this.
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All right, Tuck, I feel like I should start with a confession.
I've been talking a lot of macho talk about T-Balls and hitting it out of the park.
I used to strike out at T-Ball pretty often.
They give you a lot more than just three strikes before they tell you to go sit down, like maybe seven, eight sometimes depending on the coach.
And I would still strike out and it happened more than once.
Yeah, what was happening there?
What was happening there is I was a terrible T-Ball player.
I didn't play T-Ball so, you know, I didn't have that experience.
But you know what T-Ball is, right?
Yeah, you set a ball on a tee.
It's not moving. It's not going anywhere.
And you've got a baseball bat in your hand.
Yeah, I thought I'd feel better after admitting that.
I feel much worse, actually.
Well, you've told me that before.
So I was pre, I felt bad for you back then.
Now, have I talked about it on the podcast or was it in private?
No, it was on the show, but that's okay.
It was years ago. Okay. Yeah, we've been doing this for 16 years.
That's going to happen.
What? We promise to talk about intrusive thoughts.
And intrusive thought is defined basically as a thought that is not in character for you that you're thinking it.
It's pretty bothersome.
And it's a hard thing for you to control.
And if you'd start really digging in and worrying about it and looking for meaning behind it, they can be very, very disruptive to someone's life.
Yeah. There are really a problem for people who have clinical obsessive compulsive disorder.
Yeah. The reason why there's such a problem is, I mean, intrusive thoughts can affect anybody.
You don't have to have OCD.
The problem that a company's OCD is that people will try to find a way of coping with that intrusive thought.
And the classic example is being a germophob feeling like your hands are dirty.
So you go wash your hands.
By washing your hands, you're coping with the sensation that your hands are dirty.
You have germs on your hands.
And you alleviate that by washing your hands.
Well, if you have an intrusive thought and the idea that your hands are dirty is essentially constant, you're going to spend a lot of your time washing your hands.
And it's going to actually impact your life.
That's a classic example of somebody suffering from OCD.
But if you take away the washing your hands to alleviate that stress from the intrusive thought, you have what happens to basically anybody.
This thought that kind of comes out of nowhere.
It's often very, very troubling.
There's a whole variety called morbid obsessions, which is, you know, I could pick up that ax and kill my whole family right now.
And then you're like, wait a minute, why am I thinking that?
And you feel horrible for that even crossing your mind because what loving husband, wife, child, whatever think of something like that.
And you start to go down that road and you're too afraid to even bring it up to anybody.
You'll want to be like, hey, I just thought of killing all of you guys with an ax.
Let's talk that out. So the more you keep it to yourself and ruminate on it, the more terrifying it becomes.
And that is essentially the cycle of intrusive thoughts that can only be broken by essentially saying, that was an intrusive thought.
I accept those and intrusive thought.
I don't actually want to kill my family with an ax.
And this kind of thing happens to everybody.
Yeah. And, you know, Livy appointed out.
She did a great job with us, by the way.
She knocked the table out of the park.
She did. Livy pointed out that this has led to a lot of bad stuff, especially with people with OCD in the past with like the court system and like having children taken away or something because the old idea as far as psychiatry is concerned or psychoanalysis is concerned was if you're having these ideations, it's really a manifestation of your unconscious desire.
If you have a thought about, you know, drowning your children and then all of a sudden you're going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my god, how can I think that and what is that all about now?
And then you're just really drilling down into that because you're horrified by it, you have a now an analyst saying, oh, well, that's really your unconscious desire, your honor or ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
And so you get your children taken away and now they're saying like, that's not true at all.
Like it's not an unconscious desire.
It's someone who's horrified by these thoughts that are obsessing about them because they're horrified about it.
Exactly. And I think the very fact that you're horrified by it shows you just how far you are from actually committing that act.
So yeah, the idea that people used to get their children, it happened at least twice.
I could find two cases that happened fairly recently where mothers in both cases confided in either their psychiatrist or their OB-GYN who both just turned around and called child protective services or the cops, you know.
And just the idea that they had it so backwards and that this happens to everybody but they lost their kids because they sought help for it.
That's just, that's terrible.
So I'm glad we figured out that that's not the case.
And the fact that it can be treated pretty easily, you can even self-treat if you'd learn the steps to identifying an intrusive thought, saying it to your self-esteem, a true thought.
Like I said, you don't want to do this and that this happens to everybody.
If it's really bad and you feel like you can't self-treat, there are treatments.
You can go seek that are also very effective.
One of them is exposure and response prevention.
And one of the examples I've seen is if you think about killing your family with a butcher knife, your therapist will come to your house.
And give you the butcher knife and sit you on the couch next to your family.
And basically be like, do you really want to kill your family?
Because now is your time to do it if you want.
And I've seen that they actually will have, say like a father, look at their son and be like, please don't kill me son, it's part of this therapy.
And it works because you see firsthand, like you could do it right then and you just, you don't want to.
You're not going, you're not moved to doing that.
You have control over your behavior and you see it firsthand right there and that tends to actually help quite a bit.
And so the fact that that helps and you can self-treat shows that it is just a weird fluke of human psychology and then it happens to everybody, including really violent, terrible stuff that you can think about.
Everyone, it happens to everyone.
Yeah. And if we uncomfortably giggled during that part, it's not because we don't think that that must be the hardest thing in the world would be to sit down and have a therapy session like that with your family.
I like, I can't even imagine what that's like to sit down and have to do something like that.
Or what it costs. Yeah. Oh, I got a snort for that one.
Oh, wow. He sure did. I don't do that much.
I guess we should talk about the studies.
When I say studies, I mean studies kind of one, two.
There haven't been a ton of them.
Libya dug up a couple. In 2011, there were those, the psychologist named Jennifer Haymes from Florida State, along with her colleagues there at Florida State.
They're the people who coined the HPP term, high places phenomenon.
And they asked 431 FSU students, I guess.
Yeah, go fighting the line.
No, come on. Seminole's, you know that.
Yeah, sure. They asked 431 of their students about their experiences with high place phenomenon.
More than 30% had experience that urge to jump.
And among those who had never experienced suicidal ideation, because when they study something like this, they're trying to separate those things out of just the call of the void and someone who actually has thought about taking their own lives.
Yeah, because Freud led everybody down a blind alley by basically saying, oh, actually, this is our innate drive to want to kill ourselves.
Right. That's really at play.
It turned out, it's not true at all.
Yeah. So among those who had never experienced suicidal ideation, there were still 17% who had the urge to jump at least one time, and I believe half of the people who had suicidal feelings said the same.
It was about the same number.
Right. And the researchers were like, that's not quite track.
Let's reframe the question.
And they asked the same people, have you ever thought about jumping from a bridge or a building?
And they're like, oh, yeah, I've thought about that for sure.
That's what I'm saying.
There's a difference between just being up there and thinking like, what would happen if I did this?
The thought pops in your head.
Right. The urge where you have to push yourself away from the balcony.
Those are two slightly separate experiences.
And just the thought popping in people's heads seemed to be the more common one.
So when they reframe the question like that, 74% of people who had gone through suicidal ideation said, yeah, I've done that.
43% of non-suicidal ideators just say the general population said that that happened to them.
Just half of people walking around are like said, yeah, it's occurred to me to throw myself off the top of a tall building when I've been up there.
And even then, Haymes and her colleagues were like, I still think that's a little small.
And they've come up with little ways to essentially say like, some people are forgetting that this actually happened to them.
Yeah. And mine is always a thought.
It's never a true urge. But they, you know, after this study, one of the things that they talked about was sort of like what you said with Freud, where they said like, no, this is not a manifestation of the death drive of the urge to take your own life.
And they looked at actual, you know, real cases of suicide.
They looked at previous research and all the data.
And their argument was, you know, when someone takes their own life, it's rarely a truly, truly impulsive act.
It's usually something that has happened over time and it's a big sort of accumulation of these ideations.
And while the exact moment may have some impulsivity to it, it's rarely just a completely impulsive act.
Right. And usually it's characterized by resolution more than impulsiveness, too.
You know, the person is this is something I'm going to do.
Yes, exactly. So they basically said, okay, Freud was totally wrong, but still we think that some people don't really remember that this happened.
We think that more people than say 43% of the population have experienced this.
And one of the explanations they had was that, oh, one thing we left out, they found a huge correlation between people who experience anxiety and people who have experienced the high-place phenomenon or the call of the void, right?
And so what Haymes and her colleague said was, all right, what we think happened is when you're anxious, when you're an anxious person, you're more attuned to like internal signals.
And so you are experiencing those more acutely, like all the symptoms associated with it, like just being nervous and just having like your stomach kind of topsy-turvy, like those symptoms stand out to you more.
And so those people remember having experienced the call of the void more, so they're more likely to report it.
And that everybody, most people probably experienced this, it's just some people, it's just so fleeting or whatever to them that they don't remember it later on.
I find that questionable, but that's kind of how they explained it.
Yeah. And they also sort of wrap their heads around the idea that the call of the void is a survival instinct.
It's kind of the opposite of what people, especially Freud, had previously thought about it, is that it reflects a survival instinct that we have to sort of think about that in terms of framing it of how they're appreciating being alive and not doing that.
Yeah. So the scientific explanation, O.
Koran, which means current, is that you, when you're up there on a tall building and you're looking over the edge or something like that, your innate instinct, like say your lizard brain is like, jump back, Jack.
And so you, it sends a fear signal.
And your rational brain, which is a little bit slower, catches up and is like, hey, why am I feeling fear?
There's no danger here whatsoever.
There's like a sturdy railing and I've got like a solid floor beneath my feet.
I guess I'm afraid, or I guess I got a fear signal because I had the urge to jump.
And that's the call of the void, that it's a miscommunication or misunderstanding of your physiology and your rational mind essentially.
And that that's what the call of the void is.
I guess, I mean, that certainly, certainly jibes to a certain extent, but I don't, it still doesn't quite stay up to me like, like Kierkegaard's in Sartz explanations.
Like, I think they just completely nailed it.
Like, like five whiffle balls at once out of the park.
Yeah. I mean, they did the study and they had data and stuff, but then there's a lot of just philosophical extrapolation that you may not fully be on board with.
Yeah. There was another study, I think maybe only the other study, I couldn't find any other ones.
No, huh. Tobias Tyson and his other co-workers there at Ruer, Jun Jun Juniper Stett, Bochlam, this is in Germany.
That's the fighting rurder jersey.
In 2020. And they looked at a couple of different samples of patients, 276 people who did an online survey about half of them had experienced suicidal ideation at some point.
And then 94 patients who were being treated for flight phobia, like, you know, fear of flying in a plane, which you used to be.
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