You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Steve, today with Yushan and Xinyu.
Coming up office gossip can perhaps feel like harmless storytelling that won't hurt anyone or have any consequences.
But our words can suddenly come with a price tag.
Our weekly installment of The Soapbox is coming up.
After that, why are young people paying for an app that asks them to prove that they are still alive every morning?
What?
It's become a viral trend.
Is this a need to be constantly noticed or could something really positive be at play here?
It's not exactly what it seems to be.
I'll tell you that much so far.
Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts.
Don't forget, we love hearing your voice.
So please send your voice to us through voice note.
Roundtable podcast at QQ.com.
Once again, Roundtable podcast at QQ.com.
Hear ye, hear ye.
Please gather round.
It's time for the soapbox.
It is time for The Soapbox.
It is our segment where we find a story of something that has been circulating online or through the news as of late, and then we climb up onto our soapbox to tell you how we really feel about it.
We take turns in this segment, and this week, the soapbox belongs to you, Sean.
Wow, I'm excited.
So here's the thing, okay?
I recently came across this story about office gossip.
And it's from Workers Daily.
And it talks about how gossiping about your ex-co-workers after you resign can lead to lawsuits.
Now we're talking about just office gossip, which often show up as jokes, you know, or that break room chat that you have with your besties at work, believing that no one else is listening to you guys.
So you might think, why so serious about that?
But now we see that in China, people no longer treat it merely as a joke.
And the two people in the story that I'm about to present to you the person who cooked up the gossip and the person whose reputation is damaged by it actually ended up in court.
Yeah, I don't know if I'm just lucky or if no one talks to me.
Maybe you don't know.
That's my point.
Where are you getting it?
Well, I'm not privy to the... If there is office gossip in our building, in our company...
I don't hear about it.
And that's why I said if I'm just lucky, meaning there is no office gossip, or maybe just people are not telling me about it, which makes me think oh, maybe the gossip is about me, since I'm not being shared.
But I'll think about that later.
You're very kind, Xinyu.
But yes, even though gossip is good gossip, I believe for you, Steve.
And here's the story.
And it begins with an angry resignation email.
There is one former employee from Nanjing in eastern China who got unhappy after leaving the company he used to work for and decided to send a mass email to nearly 20 ex-co-workers and in it he used words like morally loose and improper behavior to describe a former female co-worker and even attached some of their private chatting records.
As some you know, the extra spies in that email and this isn't really new, to be honest, cases about I mean court cases about workplace rumors have been showing up for years.
And as digital office tools become more common nowadays, these cases are only becoming more frequent.
And, in this particular case, the former female co-worker whose reputation was hurt eventually filed a lawsuit against this guy and faced him at court.
So this guy in Nanjing is...
He decided he'd made a decision to quit his job.
So he quit.
But then, after he quit, he sent an email to 20 of his former co-workers, talking about one of his former female co-workers who was still working at the company at the time.
Who was still working at the company at that time.
So he's gone.
She's still there.
And that's a deliberate message to show everybody, oh, she's gone. this and this and that.
Okay, so she sued him?
Yes.
She sued him or she sued the company?
She sued him.
Okay, so what happened when it went to court?
Well, the court didn't really treat it as a joke, as the guy kind of planned it to be, or a prank, and they certainly didn't find it entertaining at all.
The judges ruled that this wasn't just venting.
It damaged the lady's reputation and violated her privacy.
The result turns out to be the guy writing a formal written apology and then give compensation for the lady's emotional distress and also pay for the full reimbursement of the lady's legal fees.
Basically, he's paying for her to sue him.
Yeah, plus the compensation for emotional distress.
I'm just curious, do you happen to know what that compensation for emotional distress was?
It was probably financial.
Yes, in money payment way, transactional way.
And legal experts, they also describe workplace rumors as a slow poison.
They damage trust, isolate the individuals from their normal worker environment.
They wreck their careers and sometimes even cause what they call the social death for someone.
Even if the truth eventually comes out, clarifying who's false and that really is, the label sticks around.
Now we can see China is taking really serious actions against office gossip if it gets too far.
And this is what makes me want to get on my soapbox today.
Let me be very clear.
I don't think a written apology, some compensation for emotional distress and reimbursed legal fees are nearly enough punishment for people who cook up rumors and call it small talk.
If anything, those consequences still feel too polite for the damage that reckless words can cause.
And I fully support some other similar cases where the rumor spreader is, you know, permanently removed from their position or future likely positions, especially when their words actively destroy a colleague's reputation.
Because words are not air.
Words, they have power and they have force.
Words are a type of causality.
Every sentence you release into the world pushes something or someone forward or backward.
And we've seen history that has taught us this idea over and over again.
A few whispered words from a traitor during wartime have caused countless innocent lives.
And then there are cases where a few sincere loyal words from a wise person have changed the entire career path for someone else.
So no, I don't buy the excuse of, oh, can't you take a joke?
Or, oh, I was just teasing.
Why are you taking it so serious?
That's not humor.
It's cowardice dressed up as immaturity.
So when you spread rumors in the workplace, you're not venting.
You're altering how other people see a person.
You're reshaping their social reality without their consent.
And you might cost them trust, opportunity, mental health, or even their jobs.
That's not accidental harm.
That's behavioral violence with a smile on his face.
So here's the tip for today.
Respect what comes out of your mouth.
Treat words as loaded tools, not toys, because causality doesn't disappear just because you didn't mean it that way.
One day, the cost of your words may return to you, maybe as a lawsuit you are guaranteed to lose, or maybe as a reputation that quietly collapses when no one wants to stand beside you anymore.
Speak carefully, not only because the law is watching, but because the reality always is.
Wow, well said.
Well done, Yishan.
I was attaching some of my personal emotions to it, too.
I got angry, you know, when I see stories like this.
Yes, when it comes to like gossiping or bad mouthing or trash talking behind your colleagues back.
They're just workplace bullying.
Yeah, and I think it's okay to vent about your some of the things that's not going too well in your workplace, but There's a line there.
And if you cross the line, cross the line, there will be consequences.
And I also feel like for these employers and companies, they should have zero tolerance to this type of bullying.
Yeah, I'm happy you said that.
I actually looked this up because, again, I was thinking about from a company's point of view.
Knowing how to handle a situation where there's rumors being spread and what to do about it can be challenging if there's no training involved.
I found this.
Now, this is from about five years ago or six years ago from the Nevada Association of Employees.
So it's very specific to the state of Nevada in America.
But it talked about a study that had been done recently that revealed why companies are failing to deal with workplace harassment.
And the reason is because managers and supervisors are not adequately equipped to handle the complaints.
This is what they found from the study.
About 70% of all complaints of harassment or bias or discrimination or bullying...
Those complaints are made to managers rather than to the human resource department.
And because of that, supervisor training or management training is important to curtailing discrimination and harassment in the workplace and to avoid the potential liability and costly litigation that can come with it.
I thought that was a really great point and kind of an eye-opening moment.
I know we're not talking about the bullying exactly in this situation, but we're talking about how to deal with it so that everybody knows what the consequences will be if these types of things are done.
The management.
If they don't have training on how to deal with these situations, that's a problem from the company's point of view too, I think.
Yeah, and...
Just like you, Steve, I haven't encountered, luckily, any of these kind of issues myself.
But back in schools you know that kind of feeling when you're talked into a non-existing relationship with one of the boys in the class and the teacher said oh you two, come to my office.
That was awkward.
But the teacher back then has to say whether there is a true thing going on between the two or not.
Teacher is judge and jury.
Yeah.
But in office environment, what is the fine line here for management?
Who is taking the charge?
Who is the quote unquote teacher role in this?
We don't know yet.
And maybe different companies have different rules for that too.
So It's better not to start it in the first place.
One thousand percent degree.
And we talked about.
It's kind of the same thing, in my opinion, what we were talking about with the child actors or with your babysitting story.
My poor baby.
Yeah.
You don't know what you're causing.
Right.
And people might argue it's about intent.
Right.
Well, I didn't mean it like that.
I didn't mean to do this.
I didn't mean to cause harm.
Doesn't matter.
Your intent doesn't matter.
It's what the outcome of that thing is what's important.
So how can you be careful?
Well, just don't say anything in the first place.
Here's a good rule of thumb.
I think they call it the grandma rule.
I don't know why they call it the grandma rule.
Yeah, I think the grandma rule is.
Would you say this about that person if they were standing right next to you?
Would you say the same thing or would you not?
And if the answer is no, then don't say it.
That's a good one.
It's a good one, right?
And sometimes we make jokes and we think that we're teasing or we think that we're not going too far, when in fact again, it's about perception is reality.
If the person perceives it as too far, then it is too far, and it doesn't matter whether you meant it.
Your workplace is your workplace.
Be careful about what you say and always lean on the side of caution and safety first.
Of course, you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings either, do you?
Yeah, and wow, I had such a good idea popping up.
Oh, yeah, it's coming back to me.
So we're overly educating people on how to maintain my own balance and my peace while at work, but there's a gap of educating on people that you should stop just spreading notes or spreading news about people that you're unsure of.
And here with this soapbox, we hope that more people are aware of it.
Yeah, and I'm glad that she sued that guy because he knew exactly what he was doing by spreading rumors.
There was no question about intent there.
There was no, oh, I'm just kidding.
I'm just teasing.
No, no, there was there was harm.
His intention was harm.
And because she sued him, it got into the news.
It made it onto our show today.
And now more people will have this on their radar in terms of not how to behave.
Or maybe that guy wasn't expecting any response.
I'm sure he wasn't.
I'm sure he didn't think he was going to end up in court because of that.
Oh, yeah.
He does?
No, I'm saying he wouldn't have guessed that.
Otherwise, that probably would have stopped him.
Yeah, that's why I think, for those people who are receiving that kind of gossiping or rumors, maybe we can save some of the evidence first, perhaps like the written messages or the verbal comments, or a witness.
Keep your receipts.
Yes, when you are seriously hurt, you can seek legal help.
Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself either.
Thanks for the soapbox today, Yushan.
That was a good one.
You're listening to Roundtable.
And coming up, what if your most important daily task was proving that you are still alive?
Looking for passion?
How about fiery debate?
Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives?
Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the goal.
You're listening to Roundtable.
I'm Steve today with Jingyu and Yushan.
Imagine a morning routine where, instead of scrolling through your feeds, you're clicking a giant green button just to prove that you are still alive.
It is a blunt premise skyrocketed to the top of the charts by asking the one question we usually avoid over brunch.
It is an app that is on fire these days.
The original name for the application was Are You Dead?
And the team has rebranded it to the more globally friendly Dimumu.
I don't even know what that means, but many argue that the original name, Are You Dead, was the key to its viral success.
What is going on here?
Yes, earlier this month, a Chinese app in Chinese is called Silama and in English, as Steve said, Are You Dead is surged to the top of Apple's paid app chart in China.
And this app went viral not because of its function, but because of its name itself that caused the sensation online.
And after it was being featured by an influencer on the red note, and then it gained further traction through reactions on social media.
And because it caused so much online controversy about its name, the developers renamed the app as Dimumu.
And Dimumu can be.
It's kind of a playful twist to Labubu, which is a very popular Chinese plushy monster in China that gained global success last year.
So that's how it's been developed.
And also I've checked the Weibo account its official Weibo account and it has been gathering suggestions from netizens for a new product name for this particular app.
As of today, I don't think it's available.
It's not available in the China app stores for Apple or for Android.
It is now available.
It is now.
Yes.
It is now.
Really?
That's brand new information.
But the Dimumu.
Oh, yeah, right.
As Dimumu is.
Yeah, okay.
Okay oh that's, that's a good news, because i was just about to download it last week when i heard that it got off shelf, so i guess we didn't go over this yet.
So what is this app for?
I mean, what do you, what do you do with it?
And this is this is the surprising happy news part of this story, because it sounds really dark, but this is meant to be a safety tool.
Yeah, that's the Precisely the reason why I want to download it, because this app is a lightweight safety tool designed primarily for people who live alone.
And it serves as a daily check-in system to ensure that whoever is using it is still active and safe.
So I saw the screenshot of the main page.
It's basically a giant screen. green button that you cannot miss click.
Basically, you just check in and whoever adds you as their friend or has your contact, they will see that.
Okay, you check in.
So you're still alive and kicking.
Well, is it that they get notified if you check in or that they get notified if you don't check in?
They get notified when you don't.
Yeah, exactly.
So this is the safety aspect of it.
So if you fail to check in to this app for two consecutive days, the app automatically sends an email to a designated emergency contact.
And that email urges them to check on you in person.
And this is why I said I think this is actually important, a really great idea and a really great thing.
So when you first use the app you, as the user, only need to enter the emergency contacts name and the emergency contacts email.
So, as far as I understand, there's not a lot of privacy concern here either because, especially for the third party person, you're only putting in their name and their email address.
It's like a telephone book.
Yeah, kind of, right?
But now they're also working on some upgrades.
So because not many people check their emails nowadays.
Fair point, yeah.
They're going to have this text message feature.
So, instead of sending emails when you are not checking in for two consecutive days, they will send text messages to your emergency contact.
That's more effective, isn't it?
So why did they see the need to create an app like this?
We kind of need to look at who created it in the first place.
So this app was developed in about a month by three founders born after 1995 who identified a specific demand for such service, especially when it comes online, because there is such a need of addressing safety needs online.
One of the founders Guo, who explained that he wanted to move away from social and entertainment apps to focus on Maslow's hierarchy of safety needs, which applies to a much broader group of people.
And then there are also the need for support for solo dwellers, people who live on themselves.
And the developers stated that they created the tool to offer care and safeguarding to those who live alone.
And believing that this demographic deserves to be seen and respected and safeguarded too, even though they do not gather themselves with other family members.
Yeah.
I was going to say, sorry to interrupt.
They did this on purpose too, right?
I don't mean the app.
Obviously, that was on purpose.
I mean the name, Are You Dead?
Because it's very blunt.
It's very dark, right?
And it's humor.
And it makes people say It's a very sensitive topic obviously, regardless of where you're from in the world.
But it makes people stop and say, wait, what?
Wait, there's an app called Are You Dead?
What's that about?
It's kind of like genius advertising in a way, because you could come up with similar names like are you alive or are you still there, but they felt like that was a little bit too direct, so they went with are you dead, which is more more controversial and counterintuitive.
Yeah yeah exactly, and it just draws more attention.
Um, so this has been pretty, pretty popular so far.
People are using this now.
Yes um, This morning I just checked it's ranking the third on Apple's paid chart paid app chart in China.
And I think the reason why it is getting popular, one is because of the name.
Also, it's targeting many of the young people who are living alone, especially in China.
If we look at the population here, according to the 2024 China Statistical Yearbook, China is seeing a significant demographic shift.
So one-person households, they account for over 17% of sampled households in 2023.
And it is estimated that by 2030, there will be 150 to 200 million Chinese living alone.
So this kind of catered to their needs very well.
And it's cheap.
To download, too.
Only 8 to 1.
Approximately over $1.
Yeah.
I think it's a really great idea to have this kind of safety app in place where yeah, you're not notified if they do log in.
You're notified if they don't.
And it's two days.
I would reduce it down even to one day, although that might make things even Well.
It might make things a little more complicated and cause a lot more panic, because people forget to do stuff sometimes.
But if safety is your goal, then yeah.
But not every 10 minutes or something like that.
That's a little too extreme.
Anyway, that's it for today's roundtable.
Thanks very much to Yushan and Xinyu.
And thank you to you as well.
I'm Steve.
Hope you enjoyed the show.
And please come back again next time.
