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Please note, this episode contains explicit language and some mature subject matter.
This is The Sporkful.
It's not for foodies, it's for eaters.
I'm Dan Pashman.
Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.
And today we are back with another edition of The Salad Spinner a rapid-fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest and most surprising food stories of the moment.
And joining me here in The Spinner are two friends of mine who you've heard here on the show before.
First up, coming to us from her home in Deep Run, North Carolina.
She's a chef, cookbook author and host of several excellent PBS shows, including A Chef's Life Somewhere South and her new show Kitchen Curious, which premieres this very week on PBS stations and online.
Hello, Vivian Howard.
Hi, Diane Pashman.
Hey, thanks so much for joining us and joining me here in the studio in New York is another friend.
He's the New York Times bestselling author of Jewish and I Could Nosh as well.
As the host of Jake Makes It Easy on FYI.
His new cookbook, Dinner Party Animal, just came out.
Welcome back, Jake Cohen.
Good to be here.
Now both of you.
Before we start spinning the salad spinner, let's just like take a minute and visit with each other.
Vivian, you first.
I'm very excited about your new show, Kitchen Curious, and not just because I got to come down to Charleston and be in an episode with you which comes up next week.
A little promo for that.
But, like, tell us about Kitchen Curious.
It's like a food variety show, if you will.
Every episode is around a question that we all have if we have kitchens.
So what fats are good for you, what fats are not, and why?
We have an episode on pasta, which you're the star of, may I add.
Okay, thank you, yes.
We have an episode on why your freezer is the best preservative that you have.
I love the concept of this show Vivian, because I feel like it combines your storytelling, which you're great at that.
And like, there's beautiful visuals with also a lot of practical information.
And to me, I feel like too many food shows are one or the other.
This is beautiful and engaging and also practical.
Viv, one more thing I want to cover with you.
You've been expanding your restaurant empire.
In addition to Chef and the Farmer in Eastern North Carolina, you now have Lenore in Charleston and Theodosia in the Outer Banks.
So like, give me the quick headline on each of these newer spots.
So Lenore stands for Lenore County, which is where Deep Run is in North Carolina, where I live.
And it focuses on hyper-regional Eastern North Carolina cuisine.
So lots of vegetables, lots of grains, lots of meat as a condiment, as we talk about in the pasta episode.
And we also have a biscuit and hand pie shop there next to Lenore called Handy and Hot.
I had an egg and cheese biscuit from there, Jake, and that was killer.
I was going to say, what a great name.
That was my nickname in college.
All right.
Don't look up hot and handy on the Urban Dictionary because it was going to be that.
Oh, trust me.
Jake's like, I have it bookmarked.
Don't worry.
But then Theodosia is in the Outer Banks all the way near the end.
If you go seven more miles past Theodosia, you drive on the sand and there are no more roads.
It's focused on the seafood and the culinary traditions from that region.
Because like you, I really love to get to the reasons why we cook the things that we cook.
All right.
I love that.
All right, Jake, let's check in with you here before we get too far along.
The new book is Dinner Party Animal.
Yeah.
You call this a self-help cookbook.
I do.
What does that mean?
I'm a big believer.
I've gotten pretty woo-woo in general.
I'm sure that'll come out of me. in this episode.
But the main thesis of this book is you could buy any cookbook and learn a recipe.
But if you're choosing a cookbook with the intention of dinner parties, then you're really actually looking to build community.
And I have found the most joy and happiness in my life through cooking, not as an art form, but as a conduit for bringing people together.
In the same way that so much of my work has empowered people to like, feel like they can make a brisket for the first time or bake a cake for the first time.
Now I want it to be like, I'm terrified to host a dinner party.
JK, I'm just going to open up this book and I give you your grocery list, your timeline, your recipes, so you can just do it and start to kind of build that relationship with hospitality.
I love that also because I do think that people who might be a little bit insecure about their cooking abilities it's one thing to cook one thing.
Like I'm cooking dinner for my family.
I'm going to roast a chicken or whatever it is.
The whole idea of inviting people over and cooking for them is a whole other level of intimidation for a lot of people.
And a whole other level of intimacy.
And I think –
The intimidation, it's kind of bullshit.
I think of cooking much like yoga.
It's this practice.
And the only difference is you go to yoga, you don't start beating yourself up when you can't touch your toes.
You know you're there doing the work to make yourself more flexible and get you towards a goal.
In the same way.
The only way that you will become good at throwing dinner parties is by throwing dinner parties.
Got it.
Yeah.
So you got all kinds of dinner party menus, like you said, with very detailed the time.
Here's when to start this.
Here's the order, which is also that is even I've thrown a number of dinner parties.
I feel like only in the last couple of years have I really nailed the timing.
Yeah.
Which is so crucial what to put in when and all that.
Exactly.
You get dinner party menus like Grills Gone Wild, Bagel Bonanza, and Ride or Pie.
Yeah.
Tell me about Ride or Pie.
I ride hard for Dominique Ancel.
I worked at Danielle right after he left.
He's the inventor of the cronut, most famously.
Yeah, most famously.
But what he really invented was the chocolate coulant, which was like the – dish, the dessert at Danielle, I think.
It was like a brownie base with a sable round and it was filled with molten chocolate, cake and fleur de sel caramel, and so it's this little silo of chocolate and it's all different textures and you get the sweet and the salty.
It was like that my ratatouille moment, where I bit into it and I was like oh, Dessert is I'm like I'm a dessert person.
I've luckily to have become quite close with Dominique over the years.
And at his kitchen, he would throw these pie nights and it was unlimited pie.
It was an hour time slot and you go and they had sweet and savory pies and you could have as much pie as you could eat in an hour.
Oh my God.
And I just always became obsessed with the idea of that kind of theme.
And so it's a menu where you start off with these caramelized onion date and brie hand pies.
And then you have a veg heavy shepherd's pie and a chicken and biscuits pot pie.
Wow.
Which is really great.
That sounds like the kind of thing should be on Viv's menu.
I mean.
Yeah, I know.
I'm like taking notes.
And the filling is very much just like a.
It's like a chicken soup, but I added white beans and kale.
So it's a super hearty.
Pretty healthy because it's like on top of biscuits.
I actually leave cream out from the actual filling.
Right.
And then the crust is just biscuit dough that you roll out and crimp into the pie and you bake it.
And then we obviously finish it off with a speculous crust banana cream pie.
Oh, man.
All right.
Well, I'm so glad to have a chance to catch up with both of you.
Are you ready to spin the salad spinner?
Let's do it.
All right.
Let's spin it.
Our first story comes to us from the Wall Street Journal.
McDonald's is escalating the restaurant industry's fight over tipping.
So in most states, restaurant workers who earn tips have a lower minimum wage than everyone else, the idea being that the tips they get make up the difference.
Of course this saves restaurants money because they don't have to pay those workers full minimum wage.
Customers cover the difference.
But for a place like McDonald's.
They don't have tipped employees, so they have to pay the full minimum wage.
And they're getting more competition from places like Chili's and Applebee's, who have servers, and they're selling burgers for almost the same price as McDonald's, which they can only do because they're paying their employees the lower tipped minimum wage.
Now McDonald's has gone so far as to withdraw from the National Restaurant Association, the industry's main US trade group, in protest of what they say is an uneven playing field.
They say all restaurants should have the same minimum wage, which actually puts them on the same side as labor groups and many activists who say the tipped minimum wage leads to income volatility and higher poverty rates.
So I want to hear from both of you on this.
But Vivian first, as someone who owns several restaurants, how do you feel about the tipped minimum wage?
It's tough for me as someone who has restaurants that are on the higher price point.
Danny Meyer has tried to build in the service wage into his prices and I think he had lukewarm success with that and no longer does it.
Right.
Danny Meyer, who owns a number of upscale restaurants in addition to Shake Shack.
Yes.
You know, I think we would all like to do that.
We would all like to build in the price of service into our menu price, but people just are not ready for it.
For whatever reason, we like this separation from reality.
Like this is the menu price, and then I'm going to leave 30 on top of that.
But that's just what we've been trained for.
Right, but if they see an entree that costs $45, they're like, what, $45?
Even though you don't even realize you ended up paying that same price just in a roundabout way.
Yes, and I will say, like between McDonald's and, let's say, at Chili's, where the prices for the food are virtually the same, a lot of people at McDonald's go through the drive-thru.
And at Chili's you are paying for this, like extensive dining room and all of the things that go along with that.
And so in some ways-
It's more expensive for Chili's to operate, even if their food quality is no better than McDonald's.
And so it's harder for them to not rely on tips for their servers.
Jake, you've worked in a number of restaurants.
Girl, I'm not talking about tips.
But I will say, unfortunately, I have nothing to say on that because I just don't know enough on it.
What I will say and this is the new side of why things like this are happening is a place like Chili's is like relevant right now.
The relevancy of Chili's in terms of its presence on social media.
On TikTok, there are these like two crazy things, one being just their mozzarella sticks.
People just see how far they could pull them because God knows what's in them.
And you could pull them pretty much across the room.
And then also there's this – obviously because I'm a sick pervert like.
One of the things I get constantly are all these videos where it's people that are just like – digging into like the malted chocolate cake or the app trios, but they're using audio from like like very uh, very a specific type of gay porn, and so it's just the most disgusting audios over people destroying these foods, and every time i'm on i think i'm like oh, I miss Chili's.
I should go to Chili's.
And I really do think that social media has pushed this new Gen Z obsession with.
Let's get the gang together and go to Chili's.
And at the end of the day, it's like, I'm on board.
I don't want to go to McDonald's, but I want to go to Chili's tonight.
I haven't been to Chili's since I was in college until two months ago.
And now I've been three times.
It's so good.
Because, well, no.
I mean, because I have two 14-year-olds.
Got you.
And they both have, it's come to them and they're like, I'm like, where should we go?
They're like, let's go to Chili's.
They're being filled with this content.
Yes, yes.
What I'm hearing from you Jake, is that McDonald's should focus less on the tipped minimum wage and more on using gay porn to bring in new customers.
I mean, that's what I'm saying.
That's what I've been saying.
It's what I've been saying.
It's what I'll continue.
It's the hill I'll die on.
All right, let's spin the spinner.
Drama in the world of micro-influencers.
Listen to this.
Love it.
Bring it on.
Recently a TikToker who goes by ItsCarlaBB posted a video about a restaurant collab, that she says went off the rails.
She was supposed to go to a wine bar in San Francisco called Kiss Cafe and make a video about it.
But she says when the chef found out that she only has 15000 followers, he said that wasn't enough to justify this shoot.
He then started.
According to her, he started pulling up her videos on his phone and criticizing them in front of her.
Carla left and made a video about what happened.
Here's a clip.
He goes on to say that my audience and my followers are not the kind of people that are going to be at his restaurant.
Then he says, not to be snobby, but do you know who I am?
And I say no, because I don't know who he is.
He says he's a James Beard Award recipient or finalist or something.
And I'm like...
Great.
I don't know what to say to that.
Okay, so Carla's video goes on to say that micro-influencers like her deserve respect for the work they do, even if they don't have a huge following.
And that video she made about what happened, that went viral.
It now has close to 30 million views.
The backlash against the restaurant was so intense that the chef was let go and the restaurant closed.
Jake, as an influencer yourself...
Oh, my God.
I hope you don't mind that.
Sorry, sorry.
And that's the issue.
I'm a two-time New York Times bestselling cookbook author and yet for many people I'll still just be reduced to influencer because I got some clout on social media.
The difference is, I would say, influencer are people that are not from the food world, are not classically trained, are not having a pedigree of experience in restaurants and media and utilizing— just social media to create some package of influence, of grasping people's attention.
They're not writing their own cookbooks.
They're not doing any of this stuff.
They have a whole team behind them.
Anyway, I digress.
My main thing with this is everyone needs to shut the fuck up a little more.
I just I think that if this was something that the PR team, whatever was set up, you treat everyone with respect and you then communicate to them like hey, moving forward.
I don't want this.
If this is the line of work she's going into in terms of talking about restaurants to not be familiar with what the James Beard Awards are or who the chef is of the restaurant you're going into, it's disrespectful.
I think everyone's wrong and everyone's right.
Viv, what are your thoughts on this as a restaurant owner?
Well, I think that these people are both behaving very badly and like it's really icky.
And I'm with you.
Like if I'm going to follow someone's recommendations.
They need to have some credibility, some earned credibility.
Like I look to chefs for restaurant recommendations, not an influencer.
Also, what's a micro-influencer?
Micro-influencers, again, and here's the thing.
This is coming from someone who works with selling product.
It's very common within this brand space of we're moving away from people like me who have so many followers, because guess what?
You got to pay for that and it's expensive.
So they're going for people that have small followings but dedicated communities.
And typically these are people that are within a specific community, a specific – Demographic or whatever.
Yeah, but even more so interest.
Right.
So like they have an obsessive community about something that's a little more niche.
Got it.
And or a local community where it's like they're telling –
Whatever town they're in, they are the ones that everyone's looking to.
That's actually a little more legitimate than I thought.
Because I was like, how can you... If you want influence, don't you kind of need to be macro?
But I guess what you're saying does make sense.
No matter what, macro, micro, just interested diner, you should know where you're going.
And if you're going to... The chef and his or her story is just as important as the decor.
So if you're going to go in there and wage any kind of influence...
Shame on her for not knowing.
And shame on him for just, that's the thing.
Everyone, everything would be, if everyone just shut the fuck up, there wouldn't be an issue.
So one thing I do want to say in Carla's defense.
She said that this restaurant was very new when she went.
The website wasn't up yet.
So she didn't have a ton of information to go on.
Does that change your opinions?
Well, I'm assuming, if she was an influencer, she was brought there by a PR company that should have given her all of the information she needed to at least know who the chef was.
All right, we're going to take a quick break.
Coming up a cocktail designed by Taylor Swift, Starbucks is adding protein to their drinks and a mayonnaise-themed wedding.
Will you two stick around for all that?
Of course.
Yes.
All right, we'll be right back.
Time to cook up some advertisements.
Welcome back to The Sporkful.
I'm Dan Pashman.
Hey, I really hope you'll check out this episode we did a couple weeks ago.
It's called What's a Jewish Tavern and House of Learning?
I went to Somerville Massachusetts, to go to Lair House, which is, like the episode title says, a Jewish tavern and a house of learning.
So what does that exactly mean?
Well, those two concepts have never been combined before, according to its founders, Rabbi Charlie Schwartz and Josh Fowler.
I think we were both sort of contemplating what was missing in our own Jewish lives and in what feels like missing from the Jewish community at large.
We wanted something that felt like a place that we would want to hang out in.
And it's hard to walk into a synagogue.
And like, then what do you do?
And it's uncomfortable.
And like, what am I supposed to wear?
You come into a bar.
Everybody knows how to walk into a bar.
A lot of people do it at the beginning of jokes.
It's true.
Sometimes a rabbi walks into a bar.
While I'm there, I take a tour of Lair House's magical Jewish objects.
Check out where they host events and everything from religious texts to the secret Jewish history of punk music.
And I eat and drink.
I think what they're doing at Lair House is really interesting and new and different.
And I think whether or not you're Jewish, you're going to find this episode a great listen.
So check it out.
It's up now where we got this one.
And also stay tuned to the end of this episode for a special bonus segment brought to you by the National Pork Board.
All right, we are back with the salad spinner edition of The Sporkful with Jake Cohen, whose new cookbook Dinner Party Animal, is out now wherever books are sold.
And Vivian Howard, who has a new TV show on PBS and PBS Online called Kitchen Curious.
Welcome back to you both.
Thank you.
Let's do it.
All right, let's spin the spinner.
Kansas City Chiefs stars Travis Kelsey and Patrick Mahomes are opening a restaurant in Kansas City.
It's a steakhouse called 1587 Prime.
1587 because their jersey numbers are 15 and 87.
Most of the food is typical upscale steakhouse fare.
Although there will be a ketchup flight because Patrick Mahomes loves ketchup.
I love that.
I think that's brilliant.
I'm obsessed.
I am over ketchup.
Fancy food people shitting on ketchup.
Girl, I just raved about Chili's.
Like, we're good.
So they're going to have a ketchup flight.
Travis has a bourbon cocktail on the menu called the Big Yeti.
But I'm bearing the lead here, you guys, because Travis's soon-to-be better half, Taylor Swift, has her own cocktail on the menu.
According to TMZ, it has vodka, Pierre Ferrand, dry curacao aronia berry cranberry strawberry, lime and oolong.
It's called the Alchemy, after Taylor's song of the same name.
Now, let's take a minute and unpack the ingredients of this cocktail.
We all know what vodka is.
Pierre Ferrand dry curacao.
Now, this is not blue curacao, which a lot of people may know.
Blue curacao is just dry curacao with blue food coloring added.
Have either of you had Pierre Ferrand curacao or any sort of more upscale curacao?
No.
I've only had the blue Curacao like when I was 15.
Right, like out of a shot glass in Cancun or something.
Yeah, when I was 15.
So what's the flavor of it?
The traditional way that Curacao is made and this is true of the blue one and this one that involves infusing Lahara bitter orange peels from the Curacao Islands.
This specific one.
They use a 19th century blending technique that infuses the spirit with vegetals like prune and walnut shell.
They age it in some kind of special barrels.
Wow.
It's a lot.
Can I give my hot take?
Please.
And I'm sure it's a wonderful cocktail.
I just don't think that we should be talking about it.
I just don't think that anyone should be talking about TMZ, shouldn't be covering it.
And I get it because it's Taylor and she's an incredible icon, the songwriter of a generation.
This is late stage capitalism and it's worse.
I just, I have nothing else to say on it.
We're discussing the history of the Curacao in one cocktail in a restaurant in Kansas City.
I just feel like I'm losing my mind.
I think the history of Curacao was actually interesting.
I think you should do an entire show on it.
I don't think it has anything to do with Taylor Swift.
There is the point.
All right.
Should we talk about Travis's cocktail instead?
I think we should talk about the ketchup flight.
To me, that's the thing.
Like, that's the thing I heard.
I was like, I want to go to this restaurant for the ketchup flight.
I want 15 types of fries.
I want waffle.
I want curly.
And I want all the ketchups.
I do like that idea, too.
I'm not sure what's in the ketchup flight.
I don't know that's been revealed yet.
Okay.
More on that.
Viv's thoughts on this cocktail.
I'm with Jake.
You know, no one loves Taylor Swift.
Well, probably a lot of people love Taylor Swift more than me, but I'm a big fan of Swiftie.
But I don't care.
I mean, if I win it, I'd get one.
No, and I'm sure it's probably a delicious cocktail because, I can promise you, the two of them have a team behind them to make sure that this is of the utmost— And if her name is on it, it is going to be like perfection.
Exactly.
It's probably made in batches in her bathroom or something, and then they just shake it up.
God willing.
That would sell very well.
It's true.
It's true.
That's where I stand.
I'm going to hard disagree with both of you.
I absolutely care what's in Taylor Swift's cocktail because to me— Because of your daughters.
Well, look, I'm a Swifty too, Jake.
I'll have you know.
But it's more.
Just like you know, I can't help but be curious about what's Taylor Swift like beyond her songwriting.
And to have a cocktail that I know that she really likes, makes me feel closer to her.
It makes me feel like I'm like almost hanging out with her.
Alright, but that's the.
That's the issue.
It's parasocial, absolutely it is, but like parasocial to a point.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I'm not going through her garbage.
But the point is is that we you don't get to know.
Celebrities are just people, are like oh my god, what are they like?
They're just like people.
And there's some celebrities that you meet and you love them, and there's some celebrities you meet and like you know what?
They're not for me, just like you meet regular people, I agree.
And I've interviewed a number of celebrities, and I feel the same way.
Some of them we hit it off, some we don't.
They're all just human beings.
Exactly.
Taylor Swift is just another human being.
An incredibly talented one.
Yes, but I'm very curious to know what she drinks.
Oh, now that's the point.
Okay.
We can be curious about what she drinks.
I don't know that this cocktail is necessarily representative of that.
What does she drink?
I'll do some digging.
Okay.
I'll figure that out.
Find out for me.
Report back.
I promise you I will.
My only concern with this cocktail, aronia berry, cranberry.
What is an aronia berry?
I looked that up too.
It's like a chokeberry.
It's very bitter and tart.
Amazing.
Yes, sure.
But aronia berry, cranberry, and strawberry?
That sounds like one too many berries.
Because they're trying to make it red.
Because her signature color is red.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so they've got a sweet berry, a tart berry.
Anything with cranberry, sign me up.
Yeah, they're balancing it.
Well, Jake, Vivian, let's all meet up in Kansas City.
You can get the ketchup flight.
I'll get the cocktail.
Viv, you can have Travis' Big Yeti.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
All right, let's spin the spinner again.
All right time now for me to turn it over to the two of you, because you've each brought a news story or hot take.
Viv, what do you got for us?
The other week I read something about how 7-Eleven was bringing more food to their locations here to reflect what they do in Japan.
And like I've never been to Japan, but everyone I know who has gone comes back and talks about the food at 7-Eleven.
I think that's part of a trend that I've seen based on my kids who are 14.
We're driving through a city that we don't live in and they're like, oh my God, we got to eat at that gas station.
Or, oh, my God, we got to go to Bucky's or Sheetz.
Or the food at gas stations is just as present to them as any fast food out there.
And I don't know what the trend means, but—
I'll be going to the 7-Eleven with those egg sandwiches that I've seen from Japan, if they have those.
Right on that bread, right?
The egg salad sandwich.
Absolutely.
It's funny you say that because just yesterday someone was like have you been to that gas station in Manhattan that's famous for its burgers?
Yeah.
Have you heard about this, Jake?
Of course.
Have you been?
I have not.
But you've heard about it.
I have.
I have.
Historically, like at least in the American South, like the corner store or the corner gas station was a place for gathering and eating.
Like you would often get your morning biscuit there.
They would always have boiled peanuts and it was, you know, every place kind of had their specialty.
We did a whole episode earlier this year about Southern gas stations.
I did a road trip from Birmingham to Memphis and stopped at five different gas stations on the way, which was super fun and very delicious.
All right.
Now, Jake, what about you?
What's your hot take?
I think we're entering a chicken finger renaissance.
And I think what I mean with that is that we're entering in this age of not high-brow fried chicken, but we're going back to nuggets and tenders.
You have, like Mommy Pie's, the new chicken finger spot that just opened from the Thai Diner team downtown.
You've got Coca-Doc.
I just was very blessed to be invited for two nights at the U.S.
Open and every single person and celebrity was having those Coca-Doc chicken nuggets and they were delicious, I will say.
Everyone's like, the bougie, because you can get it with caviar.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Their honey mustard, amazing.
Their gochujang barbecue sauce, divine.
That's where it is.
Save your money.
Get the condiments.
This is what I'm talking about.
They had a flight of condiments.
Maybe that's also a trend we should watch out for.
Condiment flight.
I feel like we can't talk about this without also talking about raising canes.
100%.
I'm now a Raising Cane's convert.
I leave the club.
I leave anything.
The first thing I do is I order chicken fingers to come to my apartment to be waiting for me.
I love that.
And I think everyone's catching on.
To me.
I think this is going to be the next version of the adult happy meal of the french fries and martini.
It's going to be chicken fingers and, I don't know, and the Taylor Swift cocktail, naturally.
Yes, exactly.
Viv, what are your thoughts on chicken fingers?
So I think that the craze around them is also an example of late stage capitalism.
We're so detached from our food source that the idea of like gnawing on an actual bone is like off-putting.
So I do think that that is part of it.
That being said, I like a chicken finger and a nugget and I love the sauces and I love the idea of flights.
And I'm actually.
I'm getting ready to do the food at a wine bar in Raleigh and I'm doing a flight of cheese balls.
I love that.
I love that.
Viv is just on trend.
She is setting the trends.
Now I gotta say, I have not had many chicken fingers or chicken tenders that I didn't like.
It's like you know, my kids are a little older now but, like one of the classic kids menu, foods that kids, my kids, are likely to order whether it's mac and cheese cheeseburger, hot dog, Chicken fingers are the one that I will always eat some of.
And a chicken finger or a chicken nugget holds up beyond, like being warm in the way it's different than a French fry.
Exactly.
Yes, they have good shelf life.
Absolutely.
Yes.
All right, let's spin the spinner once more.
Time now for our lightning round, where things need to start moving a little bit faster.
First up, Starbucks has a new line of high-protein drinks which will contain as much as 36 grams of protein.
You can get a protein boost in your cold foam drinks or ask for protein-boosted milk in your drink.
And yes, you can order a protein boost in your pumpkin-spiced latte.
Jake...
Will this increase your Starbucks consumption?
So, no, because I don't drink Starbucks really.
But if I am stuck at a Starbucks, yes.
My number one thing every morning I wake up is I have cold brew shaken with protein powder.
So protein plus coffee is like my go-to.
So I think it's brilliant.
I think everyone needs more protein.
I'm struggling to get 200 grams a day.
It's a tough market out there.
Viv, Starbucks with protein?
Well, you know, clearly I'm very impressionable because before Jake said anything, I was going to say disgusting.
But now – I was going to say disgusting, but I might still try it.
I just – I'm more like I'm going to try to find my protein in –
As you should.
You're 100% doing the right thing.
I'm not saying I'm also drinking Diet Coke.
Like, come on.
Not in the house.
But, yeah, I'm on the fence, but Jake has convinced me.
This will not increase my Starbucks consumption, but I would say if I was in there and if it was like the afternoon when I'm more apt to get one of their sweeter drinks, I would be like yeah sure, throw some protein in there.
Why not?
So I would like that, and I think it's a very smart business move.
There we go.
Anyway, let's keep it moving.
A new Girl Scout cookie is coming in 2026, you guys.
It's called Explore Mores.
That's one word.
It's a sandwich cookie inspired by Rocky Road ice cream.
So, according to their site, Explore Mores are filled with the delicious flavors of chocolate, marshmallow and toasted almond-flavored cream and reflect the spirit of exploration at the heart of every Girl Scout.
To be clear, they're not taking away any of the classics.
They're just adding the Explore Mores.
Vivian, thoughts on Explore Mores?
I mean, I think it's a great marketing sales move for them to have something new, because people are always going to get their Thin Mints or their whatever that they love and try the new one.
But I doubt that it's going to, I mean, I don't know.
The Girl Scouts are full of surprises.
I mean, I can't really see it competing with some of the favorite flavors.
Jake?
Disagree.
I love it.
I love it.
My big issue with Rocky Road, I don't want nuts.
I don't want to be crunching into the nuts.
That's why I love fish food, because it's all the best kind of aspects of Rocky Road without the nuts.
But I do love almond-flavored anything.
Yes, especially toasted almond-flavored.
Sign me up.
I'll try it.
I mean, the only good one is, what's the new term for it?
What?
I love the Samoas.
It used to be the Samoa.
It's not Samoa anymore.
Caramel Delights?
Whatever it is.
Caramel Delight.
Delicious.
Give me a box.
That's my favorite one.
100%.
Everyone's like, oh, put Thin Mints in the freezer.
Gross.
Don't want it.
I want Samoas.
Give me the full box, and I'll try these.
I will say, my roommate just bought a box of everything for, like, support some kid.
And so we've had them in the apartment.
And...
All in all, they're fine.
They're fine.
What a good deed to support such a great cause.
Yes, yes.
It's really hard to say no when you're walking past it.
And you shouldn't.
You should always say yes to the Girl Scout cookies.
I agree with you.
Samoa's are my number one, a.k.a.
Caramel Delights.
They used to have two different names.
In some parts of the country they were always called Caramel Delights, because there were two different bakers who baked the Girl Scout cookies.
So some of them with the same cookie would go by two different names.
See, that's the episode I want to hear.
I want the deep dive on the history of Girl Scout cookies.
What makes the Samoas special to me is that I believe they're the only Girl Scout cookie that is chewy.
Most of them are hard and brittle, which is not my favorite thing in cookies.
One of the things that also frustrates me about Girl Scout cookies if I'm going to be the one here to take on the Girl Scouts and they also did this with these new Explore Mores is that the cookies have names that I can't remember.
Which cookie is which.
Which ones are do-si-dos?
Which ones are Samoas?
I have no idea what a do-si-do is.
It's very hard to keep it straight.
I think this is the only reason why Thin Mints are number one.
Because you know what they are.
Because you know what they are.
So, yeah.
Right.
So, you know, truth in advertising.
Don't call it Explore More.
I'm sorry.
Caramel Delight.
It's coconut is the dominant flavor.
That's true.
All right.
But at least it's close.
Okay.
It's telling you something.
All right.
Anyway.
All right.
I'm off my high horse.
Sure.
Fine.
The Girl Scouts are fine.
That's fine.
Next in the lightning round.
The New York Times has a story about candles making a comeback in restaurants.
No more of these LED lights or those fake candles with the light bulb and the little flickering thing.
We're talking real-life candles on fire.
Some of these restaurateurs are saying you know, there's just nothing quite like the ambiance and the romance of candlelight.
But there are downsides.
They're high maintenance.
You got to keep changing the candles.
They often go out in the middle of dinner and you have to relight them.
And then sometimes things catch on fire, like the sleeves of customers.
A restaurant in New York called Ulysses uses candles and they say every year there are a few sleeve or hair fires in the restaurant.
Viv, do you use real candles in any of your restaurants?
Why or why not?
We used to, and I agree with what they're saying in that there's that live flicker is really hard to replace.
But we eventually stopped because our servers just complained and you would see them like getting the wax out and just like it was just going up a hill or something.
And, you know, then, yeah, the LED lamps became very fashionable.
And I have those now.
But they're also a little bit of work.
Like every night you got to charge them.
You got to have a designated space for that.
And they're not cheap either.
It's hard to replace the flicker of a real candle.
Jake, pro or con candles?
You have two options.
You can do real candles, or you could do the other.
I mean the Times did the piece also about the fancy table lights.
You know the ones that you sit at the table and you're tapping.
It's sort of like a cone.
Exactly.
It's like a thin stick and a cone, and there's a button on top.
Those are your options.
You can either do the light, or you could do real candles.
Fake LED candles, gross.
Okay.
It's just tacky.
I'm like going for ambiance.
If I wanted tacky, I'd stay at home.
Like I got plenty of tacky.
We got tacky at home.
You're talking about those little flickering like Christmas.
Exactly, exactly.
I was talking about the lamps.
I would never put the LED flickering lights in my restaurant.
I think you're talking about the same lamp, right?
Yeah, like you touch the top.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're talking about the same thing.
Right, right, right.
I don't mind the lamps.
I like having the controller light.
Like maybe I want to turn up the light when I'm looking at the menu.
Maybe I want to turn down the light.
What I don't like about the lamps is that they have different shades of light.
So they have like a blue light option and then they have like a yellow light option.
There should only be yellow light in this scenario.
Blue light is for like hospitals and big box stores.
Yellow light is softer.
It's for ambiance.
So there should not be an option for blue light, because I don't even want to see your blue light on the table across the restaurant, because it's already going to be hurting my eyeballs.
It goes against every kind of ambiance you want in a restaurant.
Let's eat in the dark.
I'm ready.
Bring it back.
Bring it back eating in the dark.
All right.
One more for the lightning round.
Bon Appetit has the headline, I didn't want a big wedding until a mayo brand paid for one.
Heather Schroering entered a contest where Hellman's would pay for your entire wedding as a promotion for their new line of chicken tender dips.
More chicken tenders today.
There we go.
The wedding, which was in Vegas, of course, featured a four-foot-tall— That was such a read featured a four-foot-tall chicken tender tower with a mayo-based wedding cake.
The officiant of the wedding was Manny Mayo, the Hellman's mascot, who ended the ceremony with the line you may dip the bride.
The title of this episode is Late Stage Capitalism.
That's it.
If you're willing to sell out your wedding to a mayo brand.
Well, A.
God bless.
If you could use the money and you don't care about memories, like, then why not?
I was going to say, that's a fun memory.
Yeah.
Yes, that's what makes it fun.
Everyone gets married in a catering hall or some sort of whatever.
Like, even if your wedding is really great and quote unquote special is probably at a place that 10 million other people got married.
Who else?
That's because people are sheep.
But like, I'm like, I'm not doing that.
But even if you got married, like by a beautiful lake in the countryside, like you're probably not the first person to get married there, Jake.
Yeah.
To be the first person for a mayo wedding, that's a story you can tell your grandchildren.
I love it.
Viv, would you have a mayo-based wedding?
Absolutely.
Yep.
And if it were offered to me, I'd find someone to marry.
I got you.
I got you, girl.
You know, I think that weddings are really expensive affairs.
And I don't know anyone who was like, wow, that was worth all that money.
Like, if you earn your own money.
Tea.
That's it.
That is the truth.
100%.
I think, yeah, it creates a memory.
You feel like you've really won because you didn't spend any money.
Yeah.
You know, the only thing I'll take away from that is I will definitely be having a four-foot chicken finger tower at my next wedding, if it happens.
Yeah, I love that.
I think the idea of a mascot marrying me is my nightmare.
I'm all about a brand integration.
I'm no stranger to a brand integration, girl.
I've done it before.
I'll do it again.
It just has to be done tastefully.
I see.
Final question.
If you could have one food brand sponsor your wedding not Hellman's, any other one who would it be?
Well, I almost said Rancho Gordo, but I'm like, that would be terrible.
All those beans.
Yeah, seriously.
You would need to do it outside.
Yeah.
Well, you know, if my kids are coming, maybe Raising Cane's.
Okay.
Okay.
Wow.
That's a really excellent question.
It's a hard question.
It's a very hard question.
I would probably say it would be a tie between Jenny's Ice Cream—
Oh, yes.
Jenny's insane.
I just love the idea of having crazy, crazy, crazy ice cream.
That's a really good one, yes.
Or even just getting married at an ice cream factory.
I love that.
There we go.
Talk about unique.
Now, that's unique but not tacky.
Or it would be something good.
Jenny's would be great.
We'll stick with Jenny's.
What would yours be, Dan?
I think actually, I mean probably, when you get right down to it.
My favorite food in the world is flour tortillas.
Love that.
A really good flour tortilla.
And my favorite flour tortillas are this company Caramello in Kansas.
They make flour tortillas.
They ship them around the country.
Please don't order from them because it already takes me long enough to get them.
It's already like a four to six week back order.
But okay, fine.
You can order them.
They're insanely good.
You can put them in the freezer and have them whenever.
And I would have a caramello flour tortilla branded wedding.
Oh, I remember.
What?
It would be Manischewitz.
I know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's definitely, definitely, definitely.
Yeah, that would be fun.
That would be good.
Or gefilte fish, matzo balls.
All of it.
The wine.
The wine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The macaroons.
Like a whole croquembouche of the macaroons.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right, well, this has been super fun.
The salad spinner has been spun.
I think we have shared a lot of hot takes, a lot of good opinions and food wisdom.
So I want to thank both of you for joining me.
Jake Cohen, your new cookbook is Dinner Party Animal.
It's out now wherever books are sold.
Thank you, Jake.
Thank you.
And Vivian Howard, her new TV show, Kitchen Curious, debuts this very week.
Check your local PBS station to see when it's on.
You can also find it online.
And be sure to tune in next week because I will be a guest hanging out with Viv in Charleston.
Vivian, thank you so much.
Thank you all.
Next week on the show, man, you're going to love this one.
People who put recipes on their tombstones.
I talk with Rosie Grant, who has gone around the country cataloging gravestone recipes.
Rosie shares the story of how she got into this, as well as some of the folks who have put recipes on their tombstones.
And I talked to a woman who's still alive, who already knows what recipes going on her tombstone.
That's all next week.
While you're waiting for that one, check out last week's show.
I talked with Dr Marcia Chatelain about the role that McDonald's has played in Black communities since its founding in the 1940s.
In a lot of places, McDonald's has been a community hub and a pathway to business ownership for Black entrepreneurs.
But it's also been a tool for those seeking to preserve segregation.
We dig into the chain's complicated legacy.
Plus, I take my family to a very special McDonald's on Long Island.
That one's up now.
Check it out.
And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app?
Yes, the SiriusXM app has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage.
Does your podcasting app have that?
And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more.
It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one.
And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXMcom slash Sporkful.
This episode was produced by me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern and senior producer Andres O'Hara.
It was edited by Camille Stanley.
Our engineer is Jared O'Connell.
Music help from Black Label Music.
The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcast.
Our executive producer is Camille Stanley.
Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
And I'm Kelly from Indianapolis, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
This segment is brought to you by National Pork Board.
Taste what pork can do.
Jimmy, we're getting ready to grill up some bratwurst.
I love bratwurst.
Lots of fat, lots of flavor, spices.
I can't wait to get that on the grill.
I'm with my friend, Chef Jimmy Chinnis.
He owns two restaurants that I love in Greenlawn, New York Swallow Kitchen and Cocktails and Lucello Pizza.
We've gotten together to grill up some bratwurst, a sausage that's got a special place in my heart.
I lived in Chicago for three years, and I ate a lot of brats.
Walking distance to Wrigley Field.
Amazing.
And many Saturdays and Sundays we were eating brats at 11 in the morning for a 12 or 1 o'clock Cubs game.
I got really good at parboiling them in beer and then finishing them on the grill.
Perfect.
I love that on a nice roll.
Flavor-wise, so much happening.
No comparison, I agree.
It's so juicy, like so juicy.
You know, there's so many sausages out there, but it really is a distinct flavor.
Agreed.
You know the grind, the level of grind and that fat, so it melts inside.
When you cut into it, the juices run out.
It's unbeatable.
What makes a great sausage in general?
Well, I think it's the spices, the level of garlic, and the grind.
You don't want it too fine, but you don't want it too big.
And the fat content is the most important thing to me, I think.
We're cooking these sausages for a little party we're throwing at Jimmy's house.
Now, what are we doing with these sausages?
So we're going to grill them, and then we're going to rub them with some garlic butter.
Oh, man.
It's going to be really good.
So butter on top of fat.
Are you kidding me?
We're also doing these sausages with some veggies on top.
Yeah, we got some grilled peppers from the farmer's market and we also have some local corn, so that's going to pair beautifully with this.
A little sweetness.
Yeah, the peppers will add sweetness to it exactly, and the corn is going to add that nice, sweet earthy flavor as well.
I love the pops of the kernels in there.
Oh, me too, and we're going to spice rub the corn as well, to add just a little bit of depth of flavor to that as well.
It's going to be good.
All right, let's do it.
We grab our ingredients and head out to the grill.
All right, we've got sausages on the grill, corn, peppers.
It's all happening.
Jimmy, what are you looking for when you're grilling sausages?
Well, you want to look for color.
You want to keep picking them up and see.
You're starting to get a little color marks on them, so we're going to rotate them as well.
You want to make sure they're all the way cooked through.
It's very important to cook these, so you don't want to eat these undercooked, but they shouldn't take too long.
All right, the grill's nice and hot.
These sausages are already looking phenomenal.
But I also love what Jimmy's doing with the peppers.
So the peppers that go with the sausage, you have up here on the top rack.
What are those sort of getting a little smoky?
Yeah, getting a little smoky.
And then at the last minute, we'll throw them down here to finish them off.
I like that technique.
I'm going to steal that.
That's yours.
All right.
While the sausage cooks, we head back into the kitchen.
And I asked Jimmy for more tips for grilling sausage in general.
I like when you parboil it first and then you bring it right to the grill.
You don't want to put it on the grill.
It's too hot.
It'll burst.
Sometimes people will put little pinpricks in it to let the steam out so it doesn't burst.
You want to cook it kind of low and slow as well, because they can look like they're done on the outside, but then when you cut it into the center it's still pink.
So you want to make sure it's cooked for a decent amount on the grill.
And you always want to let meat rest, even your sausages.
Pork chops.
Whatever meat you're using, let it rest for five minutes at least.
And that way the juices will redistribute.
So when you cut into it, it doesn't leak all over your plate.
And it helps keep, you know, your meat very juicy and flavorful.
After 15 minutes, the sausages are fully cooked to an internal temperature of 160 degrees Fahrenheit.
It's time to add the pièce de résistance.
Garlic butter.
Yes, garlic butter.
By the way, we got this excellent recipe right from the Pork Board website.
You combine salt, garlic, parsley, and of course, melted butter.
Now Jimmy's gonna brush it on.
Oh boy.
Here it goes.
Oh, it is glistening.
We got garlic butter going on the peppers, on the corn, on the sausages.
I'm not sure that there's anything that you can't put garlic butter on.
Exactly.
I think we're ready to go.
All right.
We take our platter of grilled sausages and veggies to the patio, where we have a party of professional eaters just waiting to judge the results.
This is great.
It's delicious.
The bratwurst are delicious.
The bratwurst is so flavorful.
Oh, my goodness.
You grew up eating bratwurst?
Yes, I ate bratwurst once a week.
I loved it so much, and it's even better than it's ever been tonight.
It's so delicious.
I got to say when you bite through that sausage casing and the juice and the flavor just bursts into your mouth.
I mean it's magic.
And the garlic butter was a chef's kiss addition.
Check out the National Pork Board website for more great recipes for just about any cut of pork.
And look, I mean, bratwurst, it's just the tip of the pork burg, really.
Okay, there's pork chops, there's ribs, there's baked ham, there's pork butt and pork shoulder.
I mean, if you love the crunch of bacon pepperoni, it's time to bring more flavorful moments to your everyday life.
Because that same rich, savory goodness that you love from bacon is actually available for a million more meal occasions in a million more ways.
You want a flavorful upgrade for Taco Tuesday?
Pulled pork carnitas.
Then what about guanciale?
I mean, you can't make carbonara without guanciale, right?
Those salty, smoky, meaty little slabs inside your pasta dish.
I mean, that's what makes it.
Pork can provide all the flavor nuances and taste tones you could ever want.
Sweet, salty, acidic, umami.
Whatever you need, pork is here.
Grill it, bake it, braise it, roast it, sear it.
Whatever you do, just taste it.
Head to tastewhatporkcando.com to discover all the incredible flavors in every bite of pork.
