Hi, everyone.
I'm Lester Holt.
Welcome to Talking Dateline.
I'm joined by Josh Mankiewicz today to talk about his riveting episode called The Phantom.
Josh, it's great to see you.
This is the first time we have done this together.
Yes, it is.
Welcome to Talking Dateline.
And welcome to What an Incredible Story, which we're going to be talking about in a moment.
I want folks to know if you haven't seen it yet.
You can find this program on the Dateline podcast feed.
Go there, listen to it, or stream it on Peacock, and then come right back here.
So, Josh, let me recap for...
Of viewers right now, it was the fall of 2023.
Colorado.
Mother Christelle Krug was found murdered in her garage after she had been stalked for months.
All signs pointing to her ex-boyfriend as the stalker and killer.
But detectives soon learned they'd gone down the entirely wrong path and that Christelle's ex-boyfriend had been framed by the real killer.
Drumroll.
Her husband, Daniel Krug.
An incredible story.
Josh, I want to start off with my takeaway about this episode.
I was incredibly impressed with Christille, the victim in this case.
She did not take this lying down.
She was after her stalker.
Yeah, I mean one of the things about this episode is it points up sort of how Christille terrible a crime stalking is, how it's not taken seriously enough almost anywhere in law enforcement which we can talk about later and how, even when you do everything right which is what she did uh, even when you are unafraid and you stand up to this and you get the police involved and you document everything, it can still go terribly wrong and end really badly.
Um, She was nothing short of impressive in her life before this and in the way she conducted herself during this investigation up until the point that she was killed.
And that's really the thing sort of we want to underline here is like not just what kind of person she was and how you know this was not somebody who didn't take it seriously.
She did take it seriously and she got killed anyway.
Yeah, and then the stalker log when she pulled that out.
Of course, by this point in the program we've got an idea who she is very smart lady, very organized.
But she had a great partner also in the police detective.
Yeah, one of the things you hear Detective Martinez say to her early on, as he's looking at everything she's brought in and he says wow, this is usually something that we do, but you've done a lot of our work for us.
So I had to make this happen.
This makes it so much simpler.
Okay, I did a timeline for you.
Which, again, sort of tells you who she was and how seriously she took this.
And, you know, I don't think there's any question Broomfield police took this very seriously, too.
A lot of law enforcement agencies have been accused of sort of not stepping up to the bar where stalking is concerned.
I think these guys worked very hard at this.
Yeah, that was one of the first things that struck me in this program was the police responding the way they did?
You think they've got other things they're dealing with besides cases like this, and yet they seem to be as in it as she was in terms of the investment.
Yeah, they did.
I mean, nationally, stalking is a crime in all 50 states, but it's not a felony in all of them.
A lot of departments sort of look at stalking.
There's as much ground to cover between the way they're looking at stalking and the way stalking should be looked at, as there was in domestic violence probably 25, 30 years ago.
Certainly in our lifetimes, in our careers.
It wasn't that long ago that the police response to domestic violence was stop doing that.
You stop doing that.
You two work this out.
Don't make me come back here.
But In this case, in Broomfield, they listened to her and they definitely pursued this.
I mean, they put her car up on a hoist to see whether she had a tracking device on it.
They followed her surreptitiously.
They followed her husband.
And they're thinking, you know, if...
If this guy is following you and he's getting this information, he's got to be on you.
And if we're on you, we're going to see him.
But they didn't see him.
That's where we get the title, The Phantom.
And that's where I got a little hung up a few times.
Where aren't the clues now pointing this has got to be something deeper than a typical stalking.
I think at some point you say stalking is a very personal thing generally.
Did this case follow the norms of what we tend to think of?
No, I mean, I think you know, I think this was for all of those officers in Broomfield.
I think this was the weirdest case that they have ever done.
Stocking cases generally.
Like you know, you know who it is and then you can find that person or law enforcement can speak with that person.
And in this case, they had a lot of trouble finding Anthony Holland.
There is.
You know the family has gone back and forth as to whether or not it would have been a good idea to deal with Anthony Holland sooner than right after Christine was killed, maybe talking to him before that.
But he was hard to find.
And I think the cops were unwilling to sort of.
You know, when you go talk to someone, particularly in a case like this, that involves, you know stalking, like everything else, is digital now.
So there's going to be some electronic surveillance going on here or some electronic communications, because this was all.
He wasn't showing up at the door.
This was all text and email and stuff done on the phone and computer.
So I think the police wanted to make sure that they had their information and before they went forward.
Yeah, so Chris Steele's body is found in the garage.
Immediately, police figure, we know who did this.
It's got to be her stalker.
It's got to be Anthony.
Were they blinded, or was the information just so bizarre?
I think you know Dan Krug, now serving the rest of his life in prison for this, did a very good job.
And he also did a very bad job.
I mean, he made some mistakes that made it easy to figure out who sent those messages.
And he also did a very good job of setting up Anthony Holland.
I think almost any police department would have believed that it was Anthony Holland.
You know, he had reached out to Chris Steele legitimately.
He had reached out to Chris Steele a couple of times over the years saying you know, you were the love of my life.
You're the one that got away.
I made a huge mistake.
I really want to apologize.
All of which Anthony fessed up to me and said, yes, I did do that.
But it was years ago.
But she told Dan about that.
And that gave him the perfect amount of information to say, create a fake person anthony in this case and suddenly all the all the communication from anthony that had stopped years ago now suddenly resume.
So christine absolutely believed it was anthony, and the police did too.
Police knock on his door.
They're asking him questions about an ex-girlfriend.
He's sitting on the sofa.
I think there's a shot, as they're all.
The police are leaving.
He's shaking hands.
This is not what any of those officers likely suspected.
No, no, it definitely wasn't.
And you know, I think, the way that Anthony conducted himself during that interview, in addition to the fact that he had a receipt for the pretty much, pretty close to the time of the murder.
I think that went a long way towards making Colorado police think wait a minute, something's wrong here.
This is not the guy.
Yeah, I want to just quickly go back and ask you about your interview with Anthony.
What struck you about him?
First of all I would be, and maybe you would be I would be more furious, I think, if someone had tried to frame me for murder and also stalking me.
I think that Anthony, you know, he was kind of guileless.
He's a very nice guy.
You know, one of the things we were thinking about when we were writing the episode is you know the minute you see him and you start hearing from him the minute he talks in the Dateline episode.
It's very hard to think of him if you're the audience as a stalker.
Because he does not seem like that kind of guy.
He doesn't have any anger in him.
He was absolutely a victim in this.
So, I mean, he was a very nice guy and clearly had inadvertently set himself up to be a fall guy.
Josh, we're going to take a quick break.
When we come back you have an extra clip I think we're going to share for part of your conversation with the cousin of the victim and an advocate.
Let's talk about those famous words uttered by Dan.
It's always the husband.
Wow.
Yeah.
I mean, there's a guy who has watched Dateline before.
Yeah, he said that right in the interrogation room.
It's always the husband.
And I think the cops were thinking, well, this time it definitely is.
I mean, they were pretty sure by that point.
Again, they wanted to wait to actually arrest him because they wanted to make sure they had all the evidence.
And he still had.
There were still some questions that offered a shadow of doubt as to his guilt.
That could have really thwarted police down the stretch.
Well, I mean, you know, there was, you know, there's no DNA.
The case against him for being Christine's murderer is a significantly weaker case than the case against him for being Christine's stalker.
I mean, he bought the burner phone used to text her with a gift card that was registered to him.
At one point, he sent a text reading test from the burner phone to his own phone.
The defense made a stronger argument against the murder case than they did against the stalker case.
I think they kind of had the feeling that the cake was baked on that other one.
There were a couple other moments here that I think caught us all off guard.
Dan's girlfriend, who had apparently reported stalking in the past.
You know, Dan was never charged with any crime before this.
So...
You know, there was no record to go on.
They didn't know about that until that woman heard about Dan's arrest in the news and called police.
And even then, she was so scared of Dan.
Sorry, I keep it in the mic.
Even then, she was so... It's for you.
I think it is, yes.
That's Susan Leibowitz from Dateline, everybody.
I'm going to have to speak to her sternly.
So she was still so afraid of Dan that she wanted us to not use her name, even though he's locked up at that point and has not been out since.
But the story she told was remarkably like the story of what happened to Christine.
I mean there were he.
The allegation was that Dan had created these fake people uh, who were pressuring this woman to both go back to Dan after she had broken up with him.
Um, and also try to sabotage the relationships that she was having after that.
Now he was never charged, as I said, but but uh, That left that woman so shaken that all these years later it's still freaking her out.
And that's some example of the power of stalking.
And it's also why police did not believe and prosecutors did not believe that Anthony Holland had hired somebody else to do the murder while he was still doing the stalking uh, back in back in utah, which would explain his his, his alibi is that.
The whole idea of stalking is this is me.
I'm not my, not my confederate, not a guy i've hired.
It's me.
I'm parked across the street, i can see you, i'm following you, i'm turning up, i'm sending you emails.
I have this control over you.
That doesn't work if you're outsourcing that.
Josh, as we've talked about, Chris Steele had so many people going to bat for her, people with experience in this sort of matter, including her cousin, a lawyer who has operated in the world of stalking.
We've got an extra clip that didn't air from the interview we want to play.
Yeah, this is Becky Ivanoff, who is Christille's cousin, who was a former prosecutor, who did domestic violence cases and who is sort of spearheading the family's effort to change the laws about how communications companies operate.
Why isn't there a national registry of stalkers and people who have been convicted of domestic violence, the way there is for sex offenders?
It's an excellent point.
And having that type of information available, I think would be really important for folks in all manner of areas in their lives, navigating personal relationships, professional relationships, etc.
I think that...
Having access to that type of information can really help future potential victims keep themselves safe and make different types of choices in a timely manner.
Christille did everything right.
The system operated as it's currently designed, and she still got killed.
And so we have an opportunity here to fix what I see as a serious flaw in the system.
You want to honor Christille by making some changes in the criminal justice system.
I do.
That's not going to be easy.
That's never deterred me in my life.
You know, this is a fight worth taking on.
And I believe Christille would want a positive impact to come out of this horrific situation.
If Christille could...
I think, say anything right now, it would be get that done.
And so I'm committed.
That's what we're going to do is create more safety for other survivors and more immediate accountability for offenders.
Becky is really talking about two things there, right?
One of them is should there be a stalking and domestic violence registry, the way there is for sex offenders?
But that's a separate question.
Should there be a national registry so that women could look up the guy that's asking them out and find out whether this guy is a serial abuser?
Those are questions that are out there, and this case sort of should start that discussion.
But what Becky Ivanov is talking about is the way that communications companies operate at the moment.
There is nothing compelling them to give information, digital information, which can be vital to police, as it was in this case to police, in 48 hours, which is what her family wants.
Those search warrants frequently take a very long time to come back.
That information in a stalking case could be the difference between someone being killed and someone being saved.
And they want to call that Christille's Law.
And they want to pass legislation requiring communications companies, in stalking cases, to provide information to law enforcement within 48 hours when they are presented with a legally executed, legally signed search warrant.
Yeah, Becky laid it out there.
She did everything right, and yet she was killed.
It makes you mad.
Well, it's impossible to look at what happened. and not get angry.
And certainly, both you and I have done stories like this before.
I mean, this is the system operating correctly the way it is currently laid out.
The question is whether or not there should be changes in the system, because there is no question that if communications companies were required to provide information in stalking cases within 48 hours Cristeal, in this case, would have had a window into what's going on.
She would have known it was Dan.
She would not have allowed Dan to get behind her in the garage.
She would have thrown him out of the house.
She would have changed the locks.
Now, could he still have killed her anyway?
Yes, but Christille would have known the state of play.
As we said in the episode, she would have known the calls coming from inside the house.
That would have been incredibly valuable information for her, and it might have been the thing that kept her alive.
All right, Josh and I will be back with some of your questions on social media.
Okay, we're back and we're going to answer some of your questions via social media.
The first is from JulianaSpain, who said do you all flip a coin to see who stays at home base and who travels?
The answer is we used to do that.
And then a Dateline investigation revealed that Keith was using a two-headed coin.
And that was why I was on the road all the time and, you know, Alaska and he was home in California.
Do you like the travel part of this, John?
We don't.
I love the travel, actually.
I like sitting across from people.
I mean, you get a different sense of who they are.
You know this.
And also, frequently, you know, people are nervous about talking on television.
If you're with them, you can maybe make them feel a little more comfortable.
So I prefer being face-to-face.
We don't flip a coin and we don't take turns.
Usually it comes down to, you know, who is slammed at the time and who isn't.
Or maybe I should say who is less slammed at the time because we all are.
All right.
Next question is from at official Nicole, who said how do you handle when you know a person is lying to you?
You know I was a political reporter before I was at Dateline and you know politicians have been lying to me forever.
People have been lying to me forever.
I mean, like lots of interviews that you do, are people who are either not telling the truth or they are shading it in some way that makes them look better.
I just let them, I let people talk.
Whatever your story is, if you're a murderer or if you're the mayor, I'll listen to what you have to say.
And then I will be prepared because I've done the reading and I know what the case was against you or I know what the official reports say.
And then you hit that person with the facts.
And that's just as true when you're interviewing the president of the city council as when you're interviewing some murderer in lockup.
Yeah, my approach is I approach these interviews with, this is your chance to reveal who you are.
Good guy, bad guy, however you want to do it.
Let's go through this and reveal the real you and perhaps your motivation.
I can't beat you up.
I'm not a yeller during an interview.
You know, aha moments are something that I think the person you're interviewing may create by something they want to reveal at any given moment.
Let's go to Kylie Hart.
On Facebook who says I was just listening to episode two of your new special deadly engagement.
Josh was talking about Ms.
Crowley's alibi during the time of the murder and she says she was at a doctor's appointment for her child.
Josh then goes on to say the detective called the office and quickly found out she was lying about the appointment.
She goes on to say, my question is, does this not violate HIPAA?
Was there maybe a subpoena involved that allowed the doctor to give the information to police?
Interesting question.
I am unaware of any subpoena.
I think the belief was by law enforcement at the time that finding out whether somebody had an appointment did not count as personal medical information.
Well, good answer.
If you want to listen to Josh's new podcast, Deadly Engagement Dateline, Premium subscribers can listen to all episodes now.
And as of now, five of the six episodes are available for free wherever you get your podcasts.
Well, Josh, thanks very much.
Great discussion.
Great program.
Really fascinating.
Raised a lot of issues.
We appreciate it.
Thank you.
So that is going to do it for Talking Dateline for this week.
Remember, if you have any questions for us about the stories we do on Dateline you want to reach out, you can get us 24-7 on social media at DatelineNBC.
If you have a question for Talking Dateline specifically, leave it for us in a voicemail.
The number is 212-413-5252, or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode.
We'll see you Friday on Dateline NBC.
For now, thanks for listening, everybody.
So long.
