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Hi, everyone. It's Blaine Alexander, and we are Talking Dateline.
I'm joined by the one and only Keith Morrison to talk about his latest episode The Terrible Night on King Road.
Hi, Keith. Hi, how are you?
And it's nice to see you and hear you too, for those who aren't seeing you.
Good to see you and hear you too, my friend.
So before we jump in, if you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.
So make sure go there listen to it or stream it on peacock and then come right back here.
Now just to recap in the early morning hours of November 13, 2022, four University of Idaho students were found stabbed to death in their home.
With the trial of Brian Koberger, the man accused of killing the students now just 12 weeks away, Keith and his team revealed the results of their groundbreaking two -year investigation into this case.
The episode sheds incredible new light on the murders and just what happened that night on King Road.
For this talking dateline, we want to tell you of course a little bit more about who those four students were that were murdered that night through the eyes of those who love them best. Okay, let's talk dateline Keith.
Right. You know before we jump into this discussion I think it's important to note that this episode is so different from the episodes and stories that we typically do on dateline because by the time we get our hands on a story usually the case is adjudicated.
Somebody has either been found guilty or acquitted.
And that is, of course, not the case here.
Usually, yes, that's correct.
Occasionally, we will do a series of stories as we have done in this case soon after a crime occurs and then kind of follow it through the process that leads towards trial.
This case, every detail is being fought out in court.
It's one in which we have had to be very, very careful in the way we do it.
And we understood from the start and continue to understand.
And I think everybody needs to understand that in our court system, the man accused in this case is innocent until and unless he's proven guilty.
And so, everything we report is based on that premise.
We have gathered material from extremely reliable sources who we trust. These sources are backed up by other sources.
It's all pretty carefully vetted.
We've done our very best to make sure that we're totally accurate.
So, it's the pure information in this story that we are very happy to have been able to report.
Sure. There are a lot of different sensitivities when it comes to reporting a story like this, when it comes to the story that you and your team air, and even when it comes to our conversation here.
Oh, yes, there really are.
It's just something you want to be careful about, that's all, that I want to be careful about, So my answers may seem a little cagier than usual.
It's not that they're cagey, it's just that I don't wanna say anything wrong.
There is nothing cagey about you, Keith Morrison.
All good. Well, sometimes a little bit cagey.
Maybe. You know, let's dive in because I think that another thing that was different about this story is sometimes when we present stories to our audience, this may be the first time that many people have heard about this case.
Right. Obviously, not the case here.
If anybody has followed, consumed any bit of news over the past two plus years, you know, at least in some part, have some degree of familiarity with this case out of Idaho.
So when you do a story like this, when people really are hanging on every small detail of this, certainly when you're able to advance a story the way that you have, that's a remarkable thing.
Well, yes. And one of the, one of the facts of this case is that there's a gag order.
Now, some people wonder whether a gag order prevents us from doing our reporting, and it does not.
We can continue to, you know, ferret out what information we can.
I mean, the big question in all of this and from the beginning has been, who is Brian Koberger?
And in this episode, you described him as a man who lived in the shadows.
To some degree, perhaps.
He was known to, um, to, like, spend a lot of time alone.
He was known to like to be out at night by himself.
He seemed attracted to the darkness.
And that was just an aspect of his personality, which may or may not have meant anything.
But Lives in the Shadows might be a little strong, but he was somebody who was socially awkward, at least as people described it to us, at the same time.
His professors said that he was one of the brightest people, or some of them, his past professors especially, one of the brightest students they ever had had.
And because he was studying criminology and getting a Ph .D. in criminology, it made sense that he was studying some subjects which might be considered very dark, very difficult, very scary to some people, and that that might have a perfectly reasonable explanation, but he was an odd fellow.
You know, in talking about his chosen field of study, criminology.
I have to say that when I was watching your story and when you reported about the Google searches that were found on his phone right this this you know some of the questions can psychopaths behave pro -socially and sociopathic traits in college student I have to say that when I saw that I thought okay maybe it means again if he is in fact guilty of the crimes of which he's being accused, did he in some way know that maybe there was something off about him and perhaps he was engaged in that field of study to understand or lean into it?
It may well be. That's the conclusion that has been reached by experts we've spoken to about human behavior.
Who have looked at that, have suggested that's the most likely explanation.
Speaking of explanations, someone could look at this and say, OK, maybe there wasn't an explanation for this or maybe there was.
Ted Bundy was was a name It came up a lot in the story.
There were a lot of searches related to just for those who may be need a refresher.
Remind us who Ted Bundy was.
Well, Ted Bundy was a prolific serial killer who was killing university students and college girls.
But as a character, he has fascinated numbers of people, certainly, Kohlberger, but also fascinated some of Kohlberger's professors.
Still he was — it went beyond merely looking up Bundy a lot and being interested in him a good deal.
The messages that he uploaded about whether or not he was normal, whether he ever could be normal in the society, all suggested sort of that he was feeling that he didn't belong, but also that if he did belong to anybody, maybe he belonged more to the cadre that would be a Ted Bundy sort of character.
And again, somewhat amorphous, but that's how it looked.
You talk to people who had had what most of us would call just kind of chance run ins with Brian Koberger.
I mean, at a pool party.
I loved the Ph .D .J.
That was my favorite title ever.
I would like to go to a party that he's DJing.
He seems like fun. I was very interested, though, that they just kind of had these little snapshots of him.
Just little interactions.
But even from then, it sounded like some of them said, hey, even that just small interaction was kind of off, it was kind of strange.
Yes, and how much did they think about it at the time?
I'm not entirely sure.
After the case became famous and Brian Koberger was arrested, all of that stuff came rushing back to them.
And they said, yeah, he was a very odd dude.
So let's talk about some of the evidence that you bring forward in this groundbreaking episode.
I mean, of course, and we need to say that yes, This is evidence he's been accused of these crimes.
A judge has entered a not guilty plea on his behalf.
But in this episode, you lay out some additional evidence that could point to his alleged involvement in these murders.
Most people know how his DNA was found on the knife sheath at the crime scene.
That's kind of a famous piece of evidence.
But talk about some of the other pieces of evidence that that came out here.
Well, what we were most struck by was the video that we were able to obtain showing the white car in the vicinity of the house at 1122 King Road in the minutes leading up to the murder.
We have the precise minutes and seconds where the car appeared kind of cruised by the house until finally the car pulled into what appeared to be the only place you could be would be 1122 King Road, although you can't actually see 1122 King Road in the video.
But there really couldn't be any other place it would be.
Stephanie Dinkins if I could jump in real quick.
Talk about that white sedan.
What was, you talk about in the episode, but what was with the back and forth and the back and forth?
That was very chilling to me.
Sam Linger Well, right.
It's a white car the police believe is the white Laundra that belonged to Brian Kohlberger.
But the defense may well be able to point out that you can't really tell exactly what kind of car it is.
You see these headlights, you can tell it's a white car.
That's about it. our FBI profiler and the psychologists who looked at it both said, oh, he's just kind of stealing himself.
He's getting ready.
He's saying, am I, can I do this, can I do this?
And then, then he decided it was time.
Maybe I can't, maybe I can't, maybe I can, maybe I can't.
One of the things that I thought was an effective piece of storytelling and reporting in this Keith, was this animation that your team put together to kind of spell out how your investigative sources believe this crime took place.
And I have to say, for a lot of our, our, you know, our audience who only kind of consumes these stories via podcast and doesn't actually look at the episode, go back, this is one that you need to go back, find on Peacock and actually look at this animation because it tells us a lot.
It was a complicated situation.
The house doesn't, isn't laid out like most houses would be, the killer would have come in basically halfway up the house and then immediately made a beeline up the stairs of the top floor where Maddy Mogan maybe slept.
One of the experts that you spoke with also talked about social media intel that that one would've gathered, right?
That the victims, the young ladies posted a lot on social media?
Yes. All of these strange things that one wouldn't necessarily think of could have been actual clues to help the killer understand the layout of this house.
Right. Which is very chilling.
when we get back, Caylee was spontaneous, Maddie was an old soul.
We're going to play some clips from interviews with family and friends of the four victims to get to know them a little bit better.
That's when we get back.
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Text between two of the surviving roommates show that they knew something was wrong.
They were upset, they were trying to figure out what was happening, Yet it seems that it took a long time for 9 -1 -1 to be called.
Which has been a source of speculation and accusation ever since this occurred.
And it continues to be.
They never did call 9 -1 -1 until hours and hours after this occurred.
And, people wonder why that is so and what they're hiding or whatever.
The one young woman who did, several points about this, the one young woman who did see the killer and who talked about him having bushy eyebrows, which is a very important point that the prosecution intends to use in its case against Brian Koburger, who, you know, has bushy eyebrows.
You can certainly see them in that selfie he took soon after the killings.
The other one is why they didn't call or do anything for so very long.
And the fact is, that they had been partying and partying virtually all night long.
So, it's unclear exactly what was going on in the house, but it's reasonable to assume that these two very young people here in this commotion upstairs, see some evidence of a terrible thing having occurred, but are not prepared in their minds to believe it could have actually been a terrible thing.
You know, you can't really, that doesn't happen, so you're not going to believe it.
You're seeing somebody lying on the floor.
Well, I've seen people lying on the floor after parties before they're always, they passed out.
It's just, it's a, it's a little more understanding, understandable that they would've gone on for so long.
If there's one thing that I've learned in my so far brief time with dateline, it's that no matter in all of these stories, we never know what we are going to do or what anyone will do when confronted with a scene like this coming upon someone that they know, or that they love that has been brutally killed.
We don't know what you would do, what I would do, what any of our audience would do.
And you can speculate all you want, of course, but you certainly don't know until you are faced with such an unimaginable moment.
And so, shock? Who knows?
It's easy to kind of look and say, oh, call 911, but you just don't know what one feels in that moment.
I'll tell you about one little minor incident that occurred where I had a car broken into, smashed the windows.
And but in the course of time, between the time I made that call to the police and the time they arrived, I did all the wrong things.
And yet I'd been for decades doing these kinds of stories where I knew what the right things actually were to do.
But you lose yourself.
You just don't think rationally for the first couple of minutes unless you really are, you know, you say right away to yourself, okay, I've got to be here rationally and record this properly.
So, you know, I'm looking through the bushes, I'm messing about with things.
I'm inside the car rummaging around, doing all the wrong things." And, you know, so eventually the police said, well, you know, there's not much we can do about these things anyway, but especially now.
Especially now, you've made it even more difficult.
We spoke earlier about these four students.
And I'm going to say their names because we want to dedicate some time to hear from their family, their friends, those who knew them best about just who they were.
So, Matty Mogin, Kaley Gonzalez, Zanna Crenodle, Ethan Shapin, you got a chance to speak with their friends, their family about who they were.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Well, they were certainly smart young people and they were going places, all of them.
A couple of them were just about ready to graduate.
They had jobs lined up already.
The others had a little bit more time to go.
You know, their parents saw them as very responsible people.
You know, they were living a college kid's life, But they were also getting high grades, all of them.
They were headed for good careers.
And all of them cared deeply about their families.
And so, they were the kind of kids you would be proud to have. I think that's about the best I can say about them because I didn't know them personally, but that certainly is what others have said about them.
Well, let's listen to some of their family and friends.
Let's listen to some of the people who knew them best. I loved Kailey.
She was honestly such an amazing friend.
Kailey, she was very competitive.
She was very spontaneous, you could wake her up in the middle of the night and say, Hey, pack your bags.
We're going to Mexico in the morning.
And she'd be like, Are you serious?
Let's go. So Maddie was the youngest out of the the friend group, because those girls were very, very tight knit.
But Maddie just she was always she always seemed to be like the oldest of the group she just had a very old soul, just super smart and intelligent and very wise for her age I would say.
I miss her potential and her her sweetness and this grounded energy that she just really made people feel seen and like what they were doing mattered and made a difference.
Zana was beautiful she she was always smiling there's this video we found where she's just spinning in a 360 with this huge smile and you just want to know that person because she was just full of life.
I just want people to remember Ethan as someone who would put a smile on your face.
You know when we do stories like this.
I think that all of us can kind of identify with this being on the cusp of stepping into life, right?
This is kind of the excitement, the sense of excitement being on the verge of realizing your potential.
No, it's very true.
There is that point of being, of launching into life is so very exciting and frightening at the same time.
Can I do this? Can I do this?
Well, yes. I'm going to try.
And it's a wonderfully exciting time to be cut off like that in the midst of it.
It's just a horrific thing.
For the many people who know the details of this case and who know these names of these beautiful young lives, it is in connection to these murders.
And I think that that has to also present a specific and special kind of pain for their families, I would imagine.
Yes, that's the last thing they want is for their daughters and son to be associated with this killing.
And yet it's a tide.
You can't stop the tide.
Up next, we're taking your questions from social media.
We had a lot of social media comments on this episode, as you could well imagine.
Let's hear from Gail Sorensen, she said, wow, we really got a lot more of the story that we didn't know about before.
Keith, you're the best. Well, it's very kind of her.
Thank you. We have an audio question.
Let's take a listen to this one.
Hi Dateline. It's Chabor Michael Estefan.
I'm calling from Allentown, Pennsylvania.
I was reaching out to say or ask, if you had any chance to contact Dr. Kathryn Ramsland, the professor at DeSales University here in Pennsylvania.
She has a wealth of knowledge on Go Burger and she was his professor at DeSales.
Thank you. And again, great episode and all the best to Shane Bishop and all your producers.
Thank you. Well, as a matter of fact, yes, we certainly are aware of Catherine Ramsland.
She is very well known researcher into serial killers.
One of the foremost experts on the BTK killer and others.
So Kathryn Ramson was Brian Koberger's professor.
She recommended him for his PhD.
And she elected not to be part of our story.
We are not sure yet.
It's going to be up to her what role she plays or doesn't play in his trial.
There is an interesting question that I want to ask you.
I'm sure you'd love to answer it.
Does Keith write his own questions?
Yes, and no. Is the answer to that question.
I work with, as we all do, we work with some of the best producers in television today.
So we collaborate. But that said, once you're sitting in front of a camera, you ask the questions you're going to ask.
That's exactly it. We have to be nimble and I should say that question is from Jennifer Hart.
But the interview goes where the interview goes.
And there have been times I bring all sorts of things out that were never written down just based on the answers that you get and you have to you have to listen actively to primary most intense intensively listen.
A lot of comments that we heard from our viewers about why it's taken so long for this to go to trial.
The murders, of course, happened in November of twenty twenty two.
that this trial was set for August of 2025.
Phoenix Lopez Harmon writes, what is taking so long?
Is it because this is a death penalty case?
And it's important to point out that these trials are not instantaneous.
Yeah, for a death penalty case I think this is relatively quick but there are cases which are far, far less serious than this one that can take even longer to get to court.
This has been a fascinating discussion.
Keith, talking about this case but also talking about how you were able to bring us the story.
So thank you so much for talking with me today.
Thank you. Thank you.
I like talking to you, Blaine.
I like it too. I'm enjoying this, Keith.
And that is it for talking Dateline this week.
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