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Hey, everyone, it's Dennis Murphy here and we are talking Dateline.
Today I'm pleased to say I'm joined by Keith Morrison to discuss his episode Secrets in the Mist. If you haven't listened to this episode yet, it's the episode 2 below this one on your Dateline feed.
so go there, listen to it, and stream it on Peacock, and then come back here.
Hey, Keith, it's good to see you.
Always nice to be in your company.
Good to see you, Dennis.
A delight. I really enjoy this story.
I think it was not so much of a whodunnit is, aren't they going to be able to get him?
But let's do a little recap before we talk about the spot.
It's about 27 -year -old Carol Lubach. She vanished in the middle of the night in 1981.
Her family imagined that she'd moved on and build herself a better life somewhere else.
But as years went by, without hearing from Carol, those closest to her, and investigators, wondered if something far more sinister had happened.
Good old -fashioned detective work, and the social media app Facebook finally took investigators to the killer.
It turned out to be none other than Carol's husband, Mike.
For this Talking Dateline we have an extra clip from Keith's interview with Mike and Carol's son Mike Jr. So let's dive in and talk Dateline, Keith.
You know, I was struck by how little the prosecutors had to work with here, were you?
Well, exactly. And this is one of the cases we did with a Los Angeles ADA named John Lewin.
He specialized in, and I think still does whenever he can, in, you could call them high motive low evidence cases.
I think he calls them that himself.
So, they're very difficult to prove.
No body case. If cynical wisdom is no body, no crime, how are you going to present your case that you can't persuade to tell the jury that in fact the victim is dead?
Yes, exactly right.
And in this case, the victim said several times she'd just leave and go off and live a different life with a different guy somewhere else.
So there was every reason for her family to kind of overcome their worries and decide that she'd just gone on to live a different life, and that's why it took so long to solve this case.
But eventually, Lewin and his chief investigator, Jim Wallace, decided they were going to take this on.
And Wallace was able to come up with this forensic idea where you put out a Facebook post. When Carol disappeared back in 1981, there wasn't such a thing as Facebook.
No Facebook, no cell phones?
This was a long time back.
This was a cold, cold case.
Cold case. But in 2009, 2010, when they were doing this investigation.
They got the idea if they put something on Facebook.
And if she was around somebody surely would respond to their Facebook post, nobody did.
And that was used as one of the pieces of evidence to prove that she was dead.
That really was a leg of evidence in the trial.
Exactly. Keith, I think you and I are both great believers in having a sense of place for where the story is taking place.
And you opened this one with the very moody shots of the of the water and fog and boats.
Right. And of course, you don't reveal all about why the boat is there.
But it's a you know, it's a visual tease.
If I can put it that way, it's what it's going to come down the line.
You don't know why.
You don't exactly know where.
You just know that something's going to happen out there.
And it's going to be important to this story.
And that's why we did it that way.
We could have started in any number of ways.
It just seemed like the appropriate way to begin this story.
Keith, set up the board for us a little.
Who did these people turn out to be?
Carol. Mike. Well, they ...
these were, um ... this was a kind of a stolid, if I can put it that way, a young man, kind of dependable.
Carol's father liked him so much that he put him to work in his painting business.
And eventually gave him the painting business when he himself retired.
So, but he was a kind of a steady, easygoing sort of guy, and the family liked him a lot.
And Carol was a beautiful, interesting, fascinating young woman who was bored with her life with Mike, and she was seeing other guys.
She was having flings here and flings there and threatening to leave. And one night she does, and then her water car is found at a local bar, known to be a A place where people meet and mingle?
Yes, precisely. Keith, I'm curious about how you did one bit of video business.
And that was locate an old fashioned car 40 years out of date.
And Audi Fox was the make and model.
The Audi Fox. In red, red in color.
And you guys, you guys found one.
How did you come up with that?
Well, that was Robert Dean, our producer, who was very effective at doing little things like that that are tremendously important to do.
But it was, yeah. I mean, finding an Audi Fox, an old Audi Fox, it was, you know, it was good to have. I think it illustrated what happened and how Mike tried to hide the crime by hiding in the car or by putting the car in a place where she might have gone to meet somebody.
And did some business around the house, too.
I'm thinking of those kind of James Bond tricks of putting scotch tape over a drawer or a piece of paper in the door handle.
Well, yes. And it looked like she'd come back.
There was some money taken from where, who else in that household, but Carol would have known that there were a few $20 bills to be found.
So numbers of conspiracy theories were formed to suggest that, in fact, she was coming back to kind of pick something up or sneak in for something and hiding, and then leaving again.
Well, that, of course, was Mike.
And he was intentionally doing it to try to make it look like she was still alive, to try to throw suspicion, if there was any, off him.
Mike was fairly open at first, Keith.
wasn't he was talking to the authorities.
Oh, yes. I mean, he presented well.
And he denied he had anything to do with it.
And then these incidents would occur.
And eventually most of the early investigators came to think that he wasn't guilty, or at least they certainly couldn't prove that he was.
No forensics around the house they could use.
So it just went cold.
OK. So if you've listened to the show cast, you know Mike Lubach eventually confessed to killing Carol, but how did he go about telling his family?
We have a clip from Keith's interview with his son Mike Jr. when we get back.
I'm Josh Mankiewicz and I hope you'll join us for season 4 of Dateline Missing in America.
In each episode of Dateline's award -winning series we will focus on one missing person's case and hear from the families, the friends and the investigators all all desperate to find them you will want to listen closely maybe you could help investigators solve a mystery search Dateline missing in america to listen on apple podcasts hey guys willie geist here reminding you to check out the sunday sit -down podcast on this week's episode i get together with luke skywalker himself mark hamill to talk about that star wars role that has shaped his life for nearly 50 years now and his gripping new film
From the Mind of Stephen King.
You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.
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It was my turn to bowl.
And I told my brother and my boyfriend, make sure you watch Tika so nothing happens to her.
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And something did happen.
She was gone. The search for Tika began that night, and it still is not over.
Maybe you could be the key to solving her case.
Dateline, missing in America.
Available wherever you get your podcasts.
Listen now. Keith, when I step back and I when I think about Mike, he seems to be a guy who gets in trouble.
The more that time goes by and the more that his story changes incrementally.
And, and detectives have a very finely tuned ear for a story that changes, don't they?
They do. and that was that was really I think that was probably more important than any other piece of evidence, the fact that he would change his story.
In different times he talked to the police, one of the detectives said, Look, I would think you would remember very well the last time you see your wife.
And yet that story changed to was it in the bathtub?
It did. He see her go to the garage?
Did he see the taillights of her car as she left?
It changed bit by bit, didn't it?
It changed with every storytelling and as much as anything else that seemed to catch him up.
That's what got him convicted, yes.
I think it was that more than the Facebook stuff that got him convicted.
And as you say that, I'm reminded that moment in the interview room where that prosecutor with such sharp ears picked up on the phrase.
He'd suggested a scenario to him.
You can do yourself some good.
Let's spill the story now and tell me what happened.
And then Mike says, that isn't the way it happened.
Well, the way what didn't happen exactly like that?
Are we talking about a murder here?
Exactly. And he had got his mix talked up again.
It's listening skills that make all the difference.
Certainly good detective work here, huh?
Yes, excellent detective work.
That particular detective, Jim Wallace, has retired from police work.
And he's now, well he sells Christian books, talks about using forensic evidence to determine the existence of God, that sort of thing.
He's a very Very interesting guy.
We have long discussions and arguments and disagreements all the time.
Keith, let's go back to the trial itself.
You had the in -laws, his former sister -in -law and others on the stand, really seeming quite reluctant to be talking about him to a jury.
They clearly still like this guy.
Yes, oh yes. He remained popular with the family for quite some time.
That's what I find fascinating, Keith.
He remained in good favor with the family all through these years that she was gone.
Well, because they knew him and they said he was a good guy, a nice guy.
He would never do such a thing.
They had seen him with her over the years and he'd always been so good to her and so kind and non -threatening, so they couldn't understand it.
Keith, the jury found him guilty.
What was the sentencing and what happened as a result of that?
Well, in 2000... It was 2013 when he was finally convicted and he was set away for 15 to life.
In the end, eventually, Mike Luban confessed.
Again, telling the story differently and incrementally, huh?
Incrementally. But he eventually got to what Lewin believes is now the truth.
They had an argument.
He at first said he pushed her and she fell backwards into a coffee table and it killed her.
Then finally, he admitted he punched her in the face, and she again fell backwards into a coffee table in the combination of a hard punch and hitting the table is what did it.
There's an interesting backstory about how this confession is revealed to the family.
And you had an interview with Mike Jr. And he told you that he had learned before other people had.
Can we listen to it now?
I wish we would. What was it like when he confessed to you?
Oh. I think it was, I was sad, but I was also relieved to finally hear this come out of his mouth.
I had been thinking that for a long time.
And so to finally hear it, for sure, I was, I don't know the word I'm looking for, but I was okay.
I mean, I was accepting it.
He wrote letters, right?
To members of your family?
He wrote, my grandmother and my maternal aunts got letters apologizing, or kind of explaining what happened.
And then I think that's the only letters he wrote right away, and then Christmas was coming.
And so he wanted my sister and my brother and all the people who had supported him to get through the holiday season before he sent me." Some in the family had a secret that they kept over Christmas.
Right, yeah, I knew on December 17th, and I didn't tell anyone until maybe the first. I mean, I told my aunts.
They already knew, then they got their letters later, but that was kind of a secret.
Keith, what an awful place this young man had found himself.
Oh, sure. His mother missing.
No one knows exactly what's happened.
There's suspicions, of course, about the husband.
And a father he loves, but he doesn't know how much he can believe.
But I'll tell you what.
Interestingly enough, he went through what he went through, and they remain close to this day.
We'll talk more about that after the break.
So, Keith, Mike is out of prison.
How did that happen?
So, he was convicted in what?
2013. But afterwards, he applied for parole at the appropriate time and parole was denied.
He had already been in prison for some time by that time.
The prosecutor, the man who prosecuted John Lewin found out about that and thought, well, If anybody of the people I've convicted deserves to have parole, it's him because he's a good person.
Every good person has a worse day and, in his case, his worse day was doing something really terrible.
So this originated in the DA's office and not with an appellate lawyer?
Well, it was an appellate lawyer but then the DA decided he was going to go and support this plea for parole.
So he went to the parole hearing.
And he said to the judge, this guy deserves to come out.
He's done what he needs to do in prison.
He would not be a danger to society.
Let him go. Well, the judge, you know, seeing it was a domestic violence case, denied parole.
So Lewin was not happy.
He went back to the next one.
Eventually the governor denied clemency.
So, finally Lewin was able to figure out a way to recharge him with voluntary manslaughter instead of murder.
And he was able to get him re -sentenced, which then allowed him to be released from prison.
So he's been out for a couple of years now.
As you know, he and his son are close again.
You know, he's getting work.
He's getting painting jobs again.
And he is living a, you know, he's living a good life.
And I think a lot of people are surprised thinking of chapters that Mike Sr. and Mike Junior would actually get extra chapters together, apparently.
Well, right. Yeah. That's very true.
Keith, I have to ask one question for your fans.
You do a standup in this piece.
And you seem to be in front of the family house, and you're leaning against a tree.
Oh, the leaning against a tree.
People pick up on that so much. Here's Keith leaning again.
Do you know that you have an Instagram file called Keith Leans On Things Trees Fence Post?
Somebody sent me this.
Somebody sent me this sign.
One of the people who watches our show.
So naturally, I had to put it on the wall.
You know I'm reminded, one time we were all together, the Dateline Gang, and I think it was maybe a crime con or something, and you were asked this very question about leaning on things and you said, I don't want to be one of those people pointing my fingers and gesticulating and walking.
And there was a reason to your lean.
That was the reason, sure.
And you'll see it even now, I think it's because I don't know why it is honestly, maybe people just feel as if they have to act more, or maybe they just talk with their hands.
But the notion of, and you'd work with camera people who just assume you'd want to do that.
So they'd say, start your stand up over here, and then walk 30 feet as you're talking to me and you can use your hands as you're telling me the story.
Because that was the normal way to do things but i mean if i'm having a conversation with you i'm either sitting in one chair you're sitting in another chair across the table and we're having coffee and you know there's nobody's you know dancing around and walking back and forth as if you're in a great fan it totally works for you it's it's a it's a wonderful and it's not style it's you talking to the to the viewer yeah that's the point it's a that it's a one -on -one thing there's one person Maybe there are several million One Persons, but they're all One Person.
Well, Keith, you pulled me all along.
Congratulations to you and your team.
This is a classic Dateline.
This is one you can watch again.
Well, thank you for saying so.
You know, and I think we're going to put a bow on this for now.
Well, this has been Talking Dateline.
And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24 -7 on social media at Dateline NBC.
If you have a question for Talking Dateline, well, this is kind of cool.
Will you leave us a voicemail at 212 -413 -5252 and you may be actually featured on a future episode.
Plus, there's an all -new season of Josh Mankiewicz's podcast, Missing in America, out now.
And that series takes a deep dive into the country's most perplexing unsolved missing persons cases.
Catch a new episode every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.
Keith, my friend, good to be with you.
Thanks everybody for listening to us.
A delight to talk to you.
Again, Dennis, you take good care of yourself.
