Hi, everybody.
I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and we are talking Dateline.
And our guest today is Dennis Murphy.
Hi, Dennis.
Hey, Josh.
How are you?
All good here?
I'm great.
This episode is called The Killer on Camera 4.
If you have not listened to this broadcast yet, it is the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts that you just chose from.
So go there, listen to it, or watch it on TV or stream it on Peacock, and then come back here.
Now today we're going to talk about the episode and Dennis also has an extra clip from the interview with Jennifer Green that he's going to play for us.
Later, Dennis is going to answer some of your questions from social media about the broadcast.
So let's talk Dateline.
Let's talk a little bit about the victim.
This was something that came up a couple of times in your interview.
And uh, And I thought it was very sort of poignant which is, this is a guy who woke up every day of his life, certainly every day of his professional life, and thought I could die today.
And even if he didn't think it, he knew it somewhere in the back of his mind, because that job involves risking your life on pretty much a daily basis.
But dying that way is one thing.
That's easy to accept.
This is something else.
I remember talking with his commander in the firehouse there and he said John Hickey, who's the victim, is the kind of guy that will go through the door, which means the place is on fire, and he'll go through the door and do what he has to do to help whatever's going on in there.
And I thought, what a great phrase, a guy who goes through the door.
And that's who John Hickey was.
What was that like talking to the other firefighters in the station there?
I mean, it's just an amazing crew.
When you talk to them, they say you can't understand it unless you've lived this life, unless you've done it.
And I must say, I do...
I do understand that.
That did come through in this episode, I thought.
Also, how connected they are still to him after all this time.
They still feel like he's part of them.
And so poignant, Josh, this was a volunteer fire department.
As I understand it, there's kind of a mentorship.
You work your way up through various volunteer fire departments.
And when you get your spurs, if the command likes you, then you get a shot at being the real city of Baltimore firefighter.
Here, this guy had been accepted to the academy.
His grandfather was a firefighter and he's just days away from going to the academy.
And this awful thing happens and the guy comes in his window and kills him.
You know it was so hard for his family to accept that that he died as the result of homicide and not in a fire which I think they might have been prepared for.
The Brotherhood, the bagpipes.
They all sort of hear it in their head that sometime their number might come up.
And they talk about it and they said nobody wants it to happen, but that's an honorable way to go out.
But to be asleep and have somebody crawl in your window and shoot you in the head, that's totally not called for.
But I thought it was very, very sad Josh, that he becomes sort of an unwitting member of a triangle.
It's not really a lover's triangle because he doesn't know he's in one.
This poor guy, he has a girlfriend, and she's got problems that come back to haunt him.
So, you know, I'm watching the story, and one of my first thoughts is, why isn't she talking to us?
And I'm thinking, did she do this?
Right?
But as time goes on, it seems like, well, she didn't do it.
This is Jennifer McKay, the girl.
We had two Jennifers.
Jennifer Green is the ex-wife and Jen McKay is the girlfriend at the time this guy is killed.
And she's got the complication with an earlier boyfriend that sets everything in motion.
And keep this in mind, Josh.
She and the guy who's killed had only been going out for maybe six, seven, eight weeks.
That's all there was to it.
Uh, there wasn't much history between them.
A few dates, Thanksgiving dinner.
You do get some sense of like how, what a world of misery she must've been in.
Uh, knowing that this guy that she had known forever had killed this guy she'd only known briefly but did love, which I think she probably did.
And they bring her into the interrogation room at the cop shop and sit her down, and then they start playing out like a deck of cards.
Do you know this photo?
Do you recognize this guy?
And it's her former lover.
She's the one whose photo identification gets thrown out by a judge.
Saying, did you guys put your thumb on the scale here?
You were trying to convince her that this photo you're showing in an interview is, in fact, Daniel Green.
And she begins by saying well, he looks a little bit skinnier, a little taller, the nose isn't quite right.
She's trying to talk herself out of it.
And it takes a while for them to come up with what they call a positive idea in that which, even though it's a positive ID, people could differ on that.
It got all the way to the Maryland Supreme Court and then they said okay, it gets reversed and she can identify in court.
And then their case is back on.
Did Jennifer McKay ever explain what it is that she saw in Daniel green?
I mean, I get it.
She'd known forever, but I mean, it.
Maybe as a kid, he was adorable and charming and your best friend in the sandbox.
But as an adult, he seems like a kind of a controlling jerk in this sandbox.
Well, she didn't say what his cologne was, which is a concept I kind of use what it was.
That was the glue between them.
But I think it was just being associated forever, you know, the long-term friendship.
When she's confronted by Daniel Green's wife, all of a sudden she understands what's happening.
She's been played terribly.
How did you like the fact that he was squatting in a house and pretending to be a divorced guy?
Daniel Green is showing her fake divorce papers.
He's got her picture scattered around and he's trying to convince her that he is in fact a single guy again, until a wife comes over and confronts her.
And he got busted, interestingly, by the school driver for Jen Green's kids.
He worked that neighborhood and he said, you know that house?
It's been uninhabited for a while.
Well, there's somebody in there.
What must it be like when Jen Green like sort of hears from her kid what Dan's been up to?
Oh, yeah.
How was your evening, honey?
Yeah, man, that was something.
So, yeah, his cell phone puts him in the neighborhood of Jen McKay's house when the brakes get cut.
Yeah.
And he made a a rookie murderer's mistake, which is turning off his cell phone during the time that the murder was committed.
If you live on your phone, that is like wearing a sandwich board that says, look at me.
You know, I can't get past the crime itself.
Crawling into this guy's house through the window, You're in a darkened house.
You don't know the layout, really.
And you're kind of feeling your way along.
And then here is the guy on his couch.
And this guy comes in and kills him in his sleep.
You know, astonishing.
Do police believe that Dan Green killed the dog?
That's what his buddies at the firehouse thought.
That's part of the plan.
I mean, maybe just killing the guy's dog is like the beginning of this stalking, murder thing.
But maybe actually he's thinking I'll be able to get into the house without anybody noticing if I kill the dog first, which is It makes sense.
Could you prove it?
I don't know that you can prove it, but it makes sense.
Pretty hair-raising.
Detective Val Vaughn is the detective that you want handling the case of your loved one.
She, Josh, is one of America's all-star detectives now retired.
But she was just great.
I mean, she's a wonderful person.
But boy, you know, we did a little bit where we sat in a police interview room where they bring all the suspects in.
And there I was opposite Detective Bowen.
She is a forceful person.
I would not want to be on her radar with her right in my grill.
She's a great detective.
But she's also exactly the kind of detective that people are.
I would imagine, likely to open up to.
She has this very empathetic story, Detective Wan, about her grandfather coming out on the stoop one night and getting caught in a firefight on the street and he drops dead from a gunshot wound.
And that's why she goes into law enforcement, because when the police came to her and helped her get through that moment, she remembered that that became her career goal for the rest of her life to become a good cop.
Did Valvon talk to you about what she's going to do in retirement?
Boy, I wish we could hire her.
Me too.
What do you think?
Me too.
Consulting homicide detective for Dayline?
Let's put her on the air.
She'd be great.
What's the story behind the passport?
I don't get that.
What's that passport doing there?
Who is that guy?
What's the story there?
He's got nothing to do with nothing.
I think it's on the windowsill in John's bedroom because he once answered a call as an EMT.
And this guy was really a wreck on the road.
He had a bad motorcycle accident.
I think this is what the cops speculate.
He found the guy's passport lying on the pavement, you know, and he just picked it up and put it away, thinking nothing much of it, and the guy went into deep rehab and comas and wasn't seen again until the cops came in and found that passport in the window.
You know you, You could make up stories that the guy this is the guy who killed him, the intruder, and he's in a panic and the passport ends up on a windowsill.
I don't think so, but there it is.
That is the kind of thing you investigate.
Here's how Val tells it.
She finds out who this guy is. and goes to his house and sits down to talk with him.
And she realizes right away the physiognomy is all wrong.
There's a video which we haven't talked about, but the whole case comes down to who is the guy going in the window?
And passport guy did not fit that bill of goods.
He was clearly not that person.
So she starts with that.
And then he says, in a very convincing way, I don't know what's happened to that passport.
I've been a physical wreck ever since this motorcycle accident.
So I think he is not on... on Detective Vaughn's pad for very long.
He's not a person of interest.
I don't either, but Of course the defense attorney is going to beat your brains in about that later on in court.
Why didn't you check out this guy?
He clearly is the unknown intruder.
You know, cops often say that... frequently cold cases are solved by two things.
One is a change in technology and the other is changes in circumstance.
And the interesting thing about this story is that you have both.
I mean, let's start with the change in technology.
Not too many years ago, somebody would go down that little narrow space between the houses, find a window that opened, get in, commit whatever crime they were going to commit, and there wouldn't be any pictures of them anywhere.
But that's not the case anymore.
And also there might be a camera Josh, but how many times have we seen the cops go back to the convenience store owner and it doesn't work.
The battery's dead.
They forgot to change the tape.
It's recorded over.
The reliability of those things back in the old days.
I think now that they're all digital, it's a lot, much better.
I mean, the odds that they would actually get something where we're not.
Sometimes you know they would see the camera and like you're like well OK, that's the killer, man or woman.
Can't tell, you know, too horrible an image.
Yeah.
So I said to Detective Val once we were talking about the camera I said how could a guy be so stupid as to take his picture online?
And of course, committing a crime.
And Detective Vaughn said, how did we get so lucky?
You know, she put it in the right context because a lot of times they don't get lucky.
And this time they did.
That video is absolutely chilling, isn't it?
The guy checking out each window.
Oh, yeah.
Not this window.
I can't get in here.
And then he finds one.
Up goes the window.
He heists himself up.
And you know he's on his way to go commit murder.
And even though he's walking back and forth forth first, like he knows he's not supposed to be doing this, like he's trying to psych himself up for the big game.
I thought it was interesting that, as much as he did look like him with the characteristic beard and such, It was the pictures of him walking for both women who knew the guy, Jennifer McKay and Jennifer Green.
He said, that's the way he walks.
You know, it's not just our physiognomy.
It's people who know us, know the way we behave, how we put hands in our pocket, how we shuffle about or do whatever.
And both women said that's him.
You know, as much as the pose for the camera, picture of the face, it was, look at the way he moves.
I thought Jen Green was like super courageous telling you about what had happened to her.
I mean...
Completely admitted.
I thought everything that had gone wrong in her life and in her marriage and how she'd lied for him, and then realized she wasn't going to lie for him anymore.
Story number one, he was in my bed.
We were in bed together that night, husband and wife.
And then you go fast forward a few years later.
Oh, he wasn't in my bed.
She decided she didn't want to lie for him anymore.
Why did she do it originally?
Let's listen to that extra piece of sound, which is from Jen Green.
This is when she's talking about being in the interrogation room looking at the security footage of somebody breaking into the apartment.
I knew that what I saw in that third photo was not what I wanted to see for myself, for my children, for his family.
I just froze.
I just couldn't process anything.
What is gonna happen to my life?
What are people gonna think of us?
I mean the things that go through your mind when you're suddenly faced with the reality of my husband killed someone.
There's no book you can write.
Like, I couldn't be like, oh, if this ever happens to you, here's what you should do.
Because it's not, it's such a visceral, raw reaction.
I just remember like, I was sick, I collapsed, I was just like in a, in a haze, you know?
And then it finally was like, okay, the kids are home from school, it's time to snap out of it.
And then you know, get back to life as normal after just being downtown and questioned about a murder.
Now Josh shift the scene in the police interview with the two detectives on the other side of the table, Vaughn and O'Connor.
They show her the photos and they don't see anything.
They're very much about body language.
And she's not giving them anything.
And she gets up and leaves.
Nothing.
She had to make a decision.
Am I going to show this what I'm feeling right now?
And at the time, she didn't.
You know, and maybe she was persuaded by him in the same way that Jennifer McKay was persuaded.
It was like, look, OK, I wasn't with you.
I understand that.
But I'm not guilty of this.
I'm not a murderer.
Maybe that's why.
On that point Josh, I'm not sure we quite nailed or got it from her why she had that change of heart.
Through the broadcast, you see her getting stronger and stronger, which I just thought was great.
How is she today?
I think she's in a good space.
She reinvented herself.
She came out on the far side of this thing and she's got a great career and good kids and she's doing okay.
I mean, her problem is that her daughters are going to read all of this stuff online.
It's there forever.
Yeah.
They're going to Google the story of their stepfather one case or the birth father who killed this guy.
That's why you have, in her situation, you really have no choice but to tell your kids everything.
But that doesn't mean you have to go down to tell the cops that you've had a change of heart and you're then going to testify.
The parents said that Jen's change of heart was really all based on the fact that the divorce wasn't final and she wanted a bigger piece of his pension payout.
And that's why she badmouthed him and courted him, pointed the finger of suspicion at him.
That had nothing to do with whether she actually believed that was him in the photo.
His parents, he's grown up the way they wanted.
He's got a good job.
He's got a good family.
And then suddenly this happens.
And he was their hero son too, Josh.
He was the one that went in the door, the way John Hickey did, into the building, into the burning house, and save people.
He was a hero for them.
But it breaks your heart to have this picture, as you're sitting with the two of them and they go see.
See, look at the nose here.
It's different.
Look at this white patch on his beard.
That's not Daniel.
It couldn't possibly be Daniel.
Do they still believe he's not guilty?
Oh, they do.
They believe that that photo was what they call bad word, but exculpatory evidence, the stuff that rules out a person for being the likely killer.
Okay, after the break, Dennis is going to answer some of your questions from social media.
Hey, we're back now on Hawking Dateline.
And in the meantime, we've lost Josh Mankiewicz.
He's gone off on assignment.
But I'm very happy to say you're going to meet his stunt double, Izar Harpaz.
Izar is not his stunt double.
He's the wonderful producer of this segment on the Baltimore Firefighter.
Izar, thanks for jumping in.
Oh, thanks so much, Dennis, for having me.
I really appreciate it.
You know how analog I am and not digital.
I think of you as having in front of you a mailbag, right?
A viewer mailbag.
There is no such thing because these are comments that we've called from off our social media page.
But we're old school, Dennis.
We got it printed out.
I'm loving it.
You know how to appeal to me.
So what I'd like you to do is dip into your virtual mailbag there and let's talk about some of these things that were on people's minds.
Yes, absolutely.
Let's start with somebody who's actually very close to the story, who chimed in on Facebook, which is Jen Green's mom.
Judith Morkowski.
And she said, I could not be more proud of my daughter.
She's right.
She has endured a lot, but has come through a true warrior.
She has built a successful business in spite of this tragedy and can survive without others.
Thank you for being so kind to her.
She is just a Wonderful, wonderful person.
I'm glad we got to meet her.
Yeah.
And you know.
So the questions that people have asked is how was it doing those interviews with Jen Green?
We knew it would be a long one because he really had a story to tell.
And we sat you guys at the kitchen table.
And we were one minute into the story.
We had just unpacked our cases for the first time.
So I'm really learning the story as I'm talking to her.
Correct.
Correct.
She really touched you, I thought, in a way that I haven't seen you be touched.
She did.
No question.
She was in hook, line, and sinker.
She said, I'm going to tell my story.
I'm going to give you everything so you could represent my story.
And we were very thankful for that.
And who else do we hear from, Isaac?
Yeah.
So we have at 60pinklady on Instagram.
And she said, great story.
I wondered why no one mentioned the unusual jacket the suspect was wearing.
I would think the wife could confirm if her husband owned it or not.
And actually, Jen Green responded to that.
She went on Instagram and she said, I did understand.
I said, he's wearing his brother's jacket when identifying him.
You know, I heard from people say that it wasn't the same jacket they saw.
There's two sets of surveillance pictures.
One.
This figure is walking out in the streets outside, and then pictures taken inside this darkened alley.
And people saying, I don't see the same jacket there.
Did you hear that kind of comment?
I think the answer, the short answer, is that the alley pictures were taken on a night scope vision camera and the electronics are tweaked in such a way that it enhances the signal and it really fries the color of the image that it's taking.
Yes.
It looks like he's wearing a black jacket on the CCTV, which is in color.
And then when the intruder goes into the back alley where there's night vision camera which records the color temperature.
And it's black and white, but it records the color temperature.
And so it really looked very different.
Who else do you hear from, Misa?
Etlexi1423 talked about, was there any evidence uncovered regarding the gun in the video?
Did Dan own a gun?
Was a bullet recovered from John and tested at all?
Any connection to Dan?
They did find an empty gun case, didn't they?
That's correct.
That's correct.
So if I remember correctly, a .45 caliber gun was used to kill John Hickey.
And they did find an empty gun case. where a 45 could fit, right?
And I think they presented that at trial.
Not enough to get you to Beyond Reasonable Doubt.
But it was there.
No, clearly that is especially the gun.
They didn't find the murder weapon.
And, you know, an empty gun case.
Yes, maybe it's an indication, but it's not something the jury will hang their hat on.
And by the way, there's a funny thing.
There's a Dateline viewer.
Her name is Michelle Ports Gargulio.
And she wrote on Facebook, I grew up in the Greens' house.
You're kidding.
My dad built it in the 70s.
My mind is blown.
The octagon window gave it away.
I googled Daniel Green and found it to be the exact same address, 40 minutes north of the city.
Wow.
Yet another reason to keep up to date on your dateline viewing, Izar.
She must have dropped her teeth when she saw her childhood house there.
I know.
That's crazy.
I hope you got a question from somebody who took in Detective Val Vaughn, who's one of my dateline heroes.
I've done this for 28 years.
I would put her in my top three.
Yep, I agree.
I'm with you, bud.
Detectives that I've interviewed ever.
She did away with the police speak.
She talked to us as people, as somebody she's conversing with.
Detective Val Vaughn is phenomenal in this dateline.
How fantastic it is, a female detective showing the nation on International Women's Day.
There are detectives out there serving their communities, doing the right things for the right reasons in a professional, compassionate way.
Well observed.
Thank you for that.
I'm glad that theme got through.
You're going to hear a story, an extraordinary character story here.
OK, so Edmure, the mystery box is is giving me a compliment.
So thank you so much.
He said we are totally digging how involved the Dateline producer was with tonight's episode and live tweeting.
Awesome.
There is a place where people can get your thoughts ahead of time.
It's at Dateline NBC Prod.
Prod.
And every week the lead producer or the associate producer signs on and kind of gives behind the scenes stuff talks about different aspects.
And when you tweet during the show, you just realize how much we are a part of people's lives.
And it's something that is a privilege.
You're talking about avid Dateline watchers.
You want to hear at Josh Warren 3.
He tweeted, my wife's water just broke, but her mom is coming to pick her up.
I'm not missing this episode.
You know, what kind of advice can you give?
Wow.
If I were him, I would just record that episode.
Well, good.
I hope everybody in their household as well.
They are very close watchers, our audience, aren't they?
There's another one on Dateline NBC Twitter.
We asked do you still have a friend you've known since early childhood?
And a lot of viewers responded with pictures and photos of their friends.
What about you, Dennis?
We've got a guy that lives 10 blocks away from me here down in South Florida.
We've each been in different paths in our lives and we ended up in the same town and we have New Year's together every year.
Wow.
Amazing.
It's funny because my early childhood friend, like the one that I'm really close to, just was over this weekend.
And this is somebody I'm connected to since the age of eight.
And we talk with each other every week.
And he's a great guy there.
I'm very privileged and appreciative to have him in my life.
We can't choose family, but we can choose our friends.
That's right.
And I choose you, my buddy.
Oh, my God.
What an honor.
Thank you.
We go way back then.
I know.
We did stories together 25 years ago.
I know.
When you were still kind of going out into hurricanes and, like you know, letting your, you know, going against the wind, when Dateline used to do like these hurricanes.
Do you remember that?
I do remember.
They made a clip reel at some point.
50 years of NBC News or something.
I may have been the one to do that.
Yes, yes.
Well, that puts a button on Talking Dateline for this week.
Izar, I'm so happy you were able to join us.
Dennis, that was so much fun.
Josh, wherever you are, good luck with your assignment.
And thank you all for listening.
And I just want to make a pitch here.
If you want to talk to Dateline, if you have anything to tell us, you want to talk about the stories, Dateline in general.
You can reach us on social at Dateline NBC.
And we're here every Friday.
I'm Dennis Murphy.
Thanks for joining me.
I'll see you along the way.
