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Hello everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander and we are Talking Dateline.
Today I'm joined here by the Keith Morrison.
Hi Keith. Am I the one or hey I'm a Keith Morrison.
You are the my friend.
Well this episode is called After the Halloween Party and if you haven't seen it it's the episode that's right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed so make sure you go there listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come right back here and for this Talking Dateline Keith has an extra clip
that didn't make it into the show.
Then I'll be talking with Dateline Associate Producer Sam Springer who will join me to answer some of your social media questions about the But just a quick recap the Dyersburg, Tennessee community was at a loss when Karen Swift, a local mother of four, went missing after a Halloween party on October
29, 2011. It took investigators six weeks to find Karen's body and it took prosecutors 11 years to charge her husband David Swift with her murder.
At his 2024 trial the jury was not able to agree that David killed Karen meaning that this case is still very much open.
All right Keith let's talk Dateline.
It's a very very unusual story but it shows what happens when a thing like this occurs in a small town where people talk and whisper a lot.
You know what I want to start right there actually because I was just fascinated by the town itself but by Dyersburg.
I mean this was a small town we're talking about a lot of people who knew each other and a lot of people who seemed to have opinions about how other folks were kind of living their lives right?
Yes very gossipy place and I got that impression from everybody I talked to and one of the ways you can tell of course is that people in the positions of officialdom in Dyersburg who sort of try to tamp that talk down you know things are really pretty normal here but clearly from from the discussions
with other people it wasn't necessarily so quiet behind the scenes as one of the characters Heather Cohen discovered when she came to town and got nearful from everybody.
You know what Heather was fascinating to me there is a laundry list of fascinating characters but I think Heather's probably at the top of my list.
She was the little disruptor that got thrown into this like a hand grenade.
Disruptor with a capital D.
I'm you know I'm curious though because when we do episodes every now and then you'll come across kind of like a Heather.
Somebody who really doesn't have anything to do with the story but comes in and starts investigating or gets interested or really kind of attaches themselves to it.
I'm curious as you spoke to her what was it that really drove her and motivated her throughout this?
Well it's you know she portrays herself as a private investigator who does a wide variety of other cases.
She claims that she did this case for free she wasn't hired by anybody she just was very interested in it and she wanted to solve it.
Enough that she devoted years to this effort but I found that when I was talking to Heather I felt like though she's a very bright woman perhaps she was giving too much credence to some of the gossip that went around town.
Gossip which might have been true might not have been true but in a town like Dyer'sburg there's a lot of it.
I'm curious what was it like Keith for you and the team to try and get to the bottom of these swingers rumors right?
Like it's not easy reporting on secrets but especially when you're talking about a small town like this.
That's right um you know the official line is there there were no such things.
Pink poodle I think was one of the one of the phrases that supposedly described them and there may or may not have been I don't know but I will say this uh you know you can tell by my wrinkles I've been around for a while and um I've encountered uh lots and lots of small towns where the things that go
on would curl your hair and swinging is kind of tame compared to some other stuff that would happen in a small town.
I think they happen everywhere they happen in cities too it's just that it's a little harder to identify and in a small town everybody knows everybody else's business and so the word goes around.
Yeah it was like an unspoken secret but an unspoken the worst kept secret kind of or uh -huh or it didn't happen at all depends on who you listen to.
Let's talk about the investigation because there were so many pieces here to this of course as well one thing that that stood out when that kind of first call came in and they said we seem to have misplaced her about a missing person.
I've certainly never heard anybody described as that way talk to me a little bit more about that what do we think was behind that phrase?
You can only speculate right?
According to the family uh it was not uncommon for Karen to vanish in the middle of the night she'd get up at three or four o 'clock in the morning and go out somewhere sometimes to meet someone sometimes not but you know it's a way of saying maybe she's not lost maybe she just went out of her own accord
or or maybe she is lost we don't know.
Sure let's talk about that horse search the fact that a dozen more than a dozen of Karen's went out on horseback to search for her it was so interesting to me because it really in many ways told me a lot about that about that town and about that community one that there is a prevalence of horses to
jump on but the fact that all of them came together they all went out on searches of course we've done stories where people kind of go out and search by foot but it took a little bit more about that scene and and and that kind of community coming together to find her.
Yes they really were kind of worried about it and united about it and I was a little surprised by the horses too what hit me was I grew up in a different part of the world where kudzu vines are just not part of the topography so the idea that you know vines growing seasonally enough to hide a body for that long
was kind of a surprise to me that they didn't find her for that long when she was actually not that far away from civilization it was also a surprise I guess you know horses are not trained cadaver beasts.
Right exactly search animals you know the kudzu but the kudzu vines almost kind of had a sort of they always kind of became yeah I always I didn't even know how to pronounce it properly kudzu I kept saying kudzu but they almost became their own character the fact that they were in a strange sort of sense
kind of concealing this body and it wasn't until the season changed that they could find her that was striking to me it was and you know would we even have a story with all these twists and turns had the kudzu vine not hidden her body for so long her body may have given the police all kinds of evidence
but it didn't because they didn't find it that is very true when we talk about this investigation of course we talk about the fact that this is kind of just just hanging there right that nobody has been convicted yes yes when you do a story like this and you know somebody's acquitted but there's another
charge pending what is that like talking to the people afterwards I mean the attorneys put so much into this case well there's a certain kind of deflation but they haven't lost so they try to give themselves that sort of compensating feeling the da and the prosecutor are determined that they're going
to make the best of it and try to get a conviction on manslaughter but you know David and his supporters are absolutely insisted it wasn't manslaughter either he had nothing to do with it so we'll see as I was watching this and I watched this episode a couple of times just to you know make sure that I
got all the nuance I did I did it was a fascinating episode in the final act as we call them you know each episode is 12 parts final act is you're introducing the prosecution team for the final time and you do these establishing shots right when you say oh you know here are the people and show them
kind of sitting it starts with a shot of an F.
Lee Bailey book and then goes to the prosecution and this is before you talk about the fact that David's acquitted on these murder charges but I wondered if that was intentional is that kind of an easter egg for our very sharp eyed date live viewers to have F.
Lee Bailey there before this this man is acquitted of a murder charge I will never say that gives me the answer I need you've got sharp eyes I must say plain Alexander I said F.
Lee Bailey that can't be a coincidence well you know he has it on his desk just for our viewers I want to say in case they're driving I don't want them to have to start googling who this is that we're talking about he was some people would say that he was the greatest one of the greatest attorneys of the 20th
century but he was at least for me in his mind anyway he was well known because he was part of the dream team for the O .J.
Simpson trial got him acquitted on on murder uh back in the early 90s certainly one of the most famous defense attorneys of the 20th century um it's a good way to put it yes and you know often successful but but sometimes just more famous than successful there you go when we get back Keith is going
to share a podcast exclusive clip from an interview with Jenna and Gerald Scott those were Karen's neighbors when she was growing up a touch of amount to hide a pinch of acetaldehyde a splash of a crawling makes the perfectly evil vape cloud vaping can expose you to a toxic mix of chemicals no the real
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viewers because you can't help but just feel so terrible for her oh you do and she was very brave I thought she was brave to testify in support of her father she was brave to come and talk to us at great length and you know she didn't shy away from anything but she absolutely believes in her bones that her
dad is innocent that he did not do this when I heard her say that and you and you asked her you said is there even an inkling even a little bit and she said absolutely not no I almost wondered if that was a sort of method of self -protection for her that she couldn't bring herself to believe that her
dad had anything to do with it I think that is sometimes the case in a situation like this with Ashley I didn't get that impression I thought it was stronger than that her her opinion but one of the moments in that interview with her that I still think about in terms of her certainty was when her mother
brought her home in the middle of the night and put her into bed she was moved from one bed to another which would have made it possible for something to happen to her mother either Karen left of her own accord or she was you know removed forcibly from bed but before that could happen Ashley had to
be taken out of the bed that she was sharing with her mother somebody picked her up and she was at the time nine years old nine so not kind of before memories get formed memories are pretty good at nine not perfect but pretty good so somebody picked her up and the authorities alleged that had to be
David an assumption frankly she is completely convinced and repeated this several times I know who it was that picked me up a daughter knows when her mother is carrying her out of the bed and putting her somewhere else I knew and I know it was her who carried me to a different bed which really takes
the heat off David there was something about that that gave me chills because she was so convinced I am you know as you know I've got two of these Dateline episodes under my belt at this point and the the second one that I've done had an interview that was very similar there's something about interviewing
an adult who was a child when they lost their parent because the memory is formed as a child so even though they're speaking to you as an adult they've lived their lives when they talk about that moment you you're it's almost like you're talking to that nine -year -old right yes yes in a way that was true
I'll never forget doing a story some years ago involving a cold case that was apparently solved when a person who was I think around that same age had been at a slumber party with her girlfriends and came down sneak down to the kitchen in the middle of the night and remembers seeing a person who wound
up being convicted of the crime sitting at a dining room table lighting candles and apologizing to the person who had been murdered as if that woman committed the murder that she said was an absolutely clear memory that she had when she was whatever nine ten years old and she revealed this to the police
when she was in her 30s an established professional woman very bright very interesting very nice person but the question of whether that memory was accurate has bothered the heck out of me because you look back on something that happened in your life back then a thing you think you remember compare it
to somebody else's memory of that thing that you think you remember and find you both have very very strong views about that memory and they're diametrically opposed because memories are very funny thing that's not to say that Ashley was wrong it's just that you know you always keep in the back of your
mind that people's memories are fallible that's very true that's very true especially when it's input at such a young age possibly the one thing about which there was no question was that Karen had changed that she wanted out of the marriage and her friends not just her family but her friends described
choices that just were not what they were used to seeing she was always in a boulliant friendly one of those sparky people who could you know be the center of attention and a delightful person but then she started making decisions that you know certainly did not make her husband happy and so that's
you know the crux of the question did that anger if it was anger contribute to what happened concern call it what you will um but you know that was I guess that was her searching for a way to be and um unfortunately for her she never found it certainly we've talked a lot about Karen and I was fascinated
to hear so much about her though we have an extra clip uh from an interview with jitta and gerald scott they were Karen's neighbors when she was growing up and and kind of gave us more of a look into who Karen was let's listen she was just uh you know a good helper in the church she was a good kid she
was a little bit rebellious and I wasn't expecting it a lot of times my wife said well Karen I can't believe you said my husband you know I mean little things like you know I tell her can you get that shirt and bring it across room well why don't you just get up get it yourself I mean little things
like that and we just laughed at it it was really really funny but she was really down deep a very very good person her mother she texted us on facebook and got a hold of us and told us that she was missing when she went missing you know and they couldn't find her and it just seemed like you know it
died down I contacted a few different places dateline nancy graze but I emailed them and just told them about the story and what was going on sure neighbors who saw her grow up who understood her understood the little girl um and I I'm so curious to know she's she's gone she's been gone with us from us
for a dozen years but Karen Swift sounded if you speak to her friends and her husband for that matter smart fun loving interesting always there for the children always up for you know some fun with her friends but fun with her friends and the kids she was a very engaged mother um a person with a happy
personality and then something changed was it marriage related must have had something to do with it was it related to something else I don't know but when you know when a person in that's her stage of life suddenly takes up drinking something's caused it especially a mother right a mother of four I
remember at some point in the episode Ashley says we would beg her not to go out at night stay with us stay with us yeah and she would go anyway right yeah there's something driving that change something was happening and and and it's still unclear exactly what it was mm -hmm now I should say this about the clip
that we just played Dateline actually first heard about Karen's case through Jenna the person that you just heard from who submitted it submitted it years ago as part of our cold case spotlight series of course that's our online article series where we highlight unsolved cold cases around the country
but I think that it just really speaks to how you know when our viewers send us things we listen to them we look into these types of things we do and I think that's one of the most useful parts of our program actually missing in America and these these kinds of cases that finally gets some new attention because potentially
at least partly because of attention from media from us sure that's a very very happy feeling when you can be somewhat helpful in the resolution of a case or to give a family a chance to tell the world what's been going on and describe their their hopes and frustrations and their you know for a grief
for that matter if somebody has been killed or missing so these are you know I think important contributions that we're happy to make and to that point I want to give this plug if you have a cold case if you're listening you have a cold case that you'd like to be featured please submit it to us you
can submit it to us on social media at Dateline NBC well Keith it has been a true joy talking Dateline with you I appreciate it oh thank you I'm delighted to talk to you and you know not only you're a very engaging interlocutor but you're not Josh Makowitz yay two wins in my column I will take it as
a newbie I will absolutely take it thank you Keith and welcome welcome thank you thank you my friend I'm so glad to be here and after the break I'm going to be joined by Dateline associate producer Sam Springer who will help answer some viewer and listener questions about the show from social media this is the sound
of your ride home with dad after he caught you vaping awkward isn't it most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment know the real cost of vapes brought to you by the FDA nobody does selling better than Shopify home of the number one check out on the planet the shop pay
feature even boosts conversions up to 50 percent so if you're into growing your business your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling upgrade your business and get the same checkout top brands like all birds use sign up for your one dollar per month
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films presents a new four -part series from NBC News Studios that exposes the injustices of wrongful convictions the sing -sing chronicles first two episodes premiere Saturday at 9 p .m eastern on MSNBC.
Well guys I'm here now joined by Dateline associate producer Sam Springer who worked very hard on this episode and we are here to answer some of your social media questions hi Sam.
Hi how are you I'm good so glad to be here with you and also just for our eagle -eared listeners who may hear a difference in sound I'm recording this portion from my car because I'm getting ready to jump into election coverage for the next few days so if it sounds a little different that's why okay
Sam we have a lot of people who have a lot of thoughts about this episode so let's just go back to our first question from Susie Mack on Facebook who writes why wasn't that anonymous phone call investigated more and Susie I have to say I had kind of the same question that's the phone call that came
in for a possible location for Karen's remains and that was something that was certainly talked about a lot but what do we know about that one.
The investigators told us that they looked into it they got a lot of tips a lot of call -ins but the exact distance that they gave in that phone call whoever called in wasn't exactly accurate it was a few miles off and so they felt like it wasn't correct it didn't seem like a relevant lead so it didn't
even seem like something that was worth necessarily chasing down because they got so many just kind of off the wall calls right exactly interesting okay here's one from twitter or x this is from atart1vegan why is David Swift still in prison yeah that's a good question um he's in prison awaiting trial
on his manslaughter charge his bond was revoked because of the stalking charge that he's facing in Alabama so he's pleaded not guilty to both the manslaughter charge and the stalking charge but he's not out on bond okay so he has to stay incarcerated until they get this manslaughter trial underway and that could be
some time yes there's no date been set for that yet so he's waiting in a Tennessee prison right now okay okay let's go to Chris Ham on Facebook who writes who is the man in the multicolored suit sitting behind whoever is speaking at the lectern during the trial we got a lot of comments about this man and my
eyes went to him as well when I watched I said okay he's he's there you notice him yes twitter was a flurry with comments about TJ that's TJ Jones he's the circuit clerk in Diersburg and he wore a colorful suit almost every day of the trial we started court the day after memorial day and his entire
suit was American flags oh well question was it the same colorful suit every day or did he have like a new colorful suit for each day of the trial he had a new colorful suit I'm sure that man's closet is very bright that's talent that's that's dedication to your craft right there well there we go question answered
okay there was plenty of Keith love in these comments this question from Rachel Wellington Rachel writes would love Keith Morrison to read stories about mysteries he is the best storyteller ever well Rachel you are in luck yes of course we've got three seasons of our Morrison mysteries podcast out wherever
you get your podcast you can hear Keith read a different story every season the most recent one was the classic mystery the dead alive he's also read a Christmas carol and the story of sleepy hollow I love it you did that very well the dead alive you almost channeled a little Keith there yourself he
said that title yes I was just thinking thinking of him reading it I love it well this was a lot of fun uh definitely an episode that got a lot of people talking so Dateline associate producer Samantha Springer so good to have you here with us today thank you thank you and that's it for talking Dateline
for this week remember if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline you can reach us 24 7 on social media at Dateline NBC and be sure to check out Keith's newest Dateline original podcast the Man in the Black Mask all six episodes are available now wherever you get your podcasts
Dateline premium subscribers can binge the entire series ad -free and of course we'll see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC thanks for listening you this is the sound of your ride home with dad after he caught you vaping awkward isn't it most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment
know the real cost of vapes brought to you by the FDA
