Hey everyone, it's Andrea Canning and today we are talking Dateline and we're talking about Josh's episode Breaking Point.
So Josh Mankiewicz, hello.
Hello.
Hello.
If you haven't watched the episode yet, you can find it right below this one or stream it now on Peacock.
So go there and do that.
And when you come back, we'll have more from Josh's interview with the man convicted of killing Morgan Fox.
And later, we'll answer some of your questions from social media.
Okay Josh, before we dive into this episode, just give us a quick summary of this episode.
Sure, this happened back in late 2020 in in North Canton Ohio, and you know, a young woman did not show up for her shift at a FedEx warehouse sorting facility, which was unlike her.
She was 29 years old.
Name was Morgan Fox.
She got up in the middle of the night to go to work.
She worked the early shift and she'd been shot dead.
As she was getting into her car in the driveway.
Now, nothing was stolen.
This, this wasn't a robbery.
Uh, this was very clearly an attempt to stalk and kill her.
And so the Stark County Sheriff's office began investigating whether she had any enemies and um, This is the story of that investigation and sort of how it played out and how it got to the end.
Coincidentally, right before I started watching your episode yesterday, I was driving to the Memphis airport and
I see FedEx plane after FedEx plane after FedEx plane.
And I'm like, I looked it up.
I didn't even realize Memphis is the hub, the FedEx hub, even though your story's in Ohio.
But it was kind of strange, given the fact that I was just about to watch your story, when I was just inundated with FedEx airplanes.
Right.
Yeah, I mean it's a – you know they've got those sorting facilities all over the country and it's – you know this is not a –.
We have no information that, whatever this issue was at the North Canton facility, that it was anything more than particular to that facility.
But the atmosphere at that facility was likened to a frat house, to a boys club, a place where women felt uncomfortable.
And sort of a lot of Morgan Fox's problems began when she got promoted from the line to manager.
And there was a sort of a campaign of I don't know whether you'd call it harassment or bullying, but it was a campaign of making her life just a little bit more difficult.
I mean, not only were there a couple of guys there hitting on her.
I'm not talking about that.
But like they would take her chair and hide it, you know, her workstation chair.
That's not good.
You know, they would take her clipboard, which, you know, she needed to do her job.
So, you know, Josh, right out of the gate, I loved how you set up the episode.
You put strangers into a workplace together, right?
Sure.
And there's all kinds of things that happen at work, right?
Like people are imperfect.
And when you put different personalities together.
Yeah, yeah.
Stuff is going to happen, for better or worse.
Stuff's going to happen.
You put a bunch of people in.
You add some pressure.
You have everybody working together on what's supposed to be a common goal.
And they're going to rate each other.
They're going to date each other.
They're going to hate each other.
That is sort of human nature that some of that's going to happen.
I will just say to you, Josh, on a side note, you know, working at Dateline, you and Keith were...
I've been here almost what like 14 years now.
You and Keith welcomed me with open arms and you really are the best colleagues.
Um, so we're.
We're very lucky that we work in an environment at Dateline that is is really just a wonderful place to be.
Yeah.
And that's always been, uh, you know, I, I've been in this business more than 50 years now.
And yeah.
Um, really?
Uh, yeah, it's 50.
You don't look at Josh.
I know it's 50 earth years.
Not, not the kind of, uh, yeah, not, not the way other people measure them.
Um, you know and you know, over that time Dateline is without question, the best place I've worked in terms of the harmony, you know, among the staff members.
But I'm glad that, I'm glad that you've said that and thank you.
See, that's funny.
I just remember Keith stealing your chair and clipboard, but okay.
Maybe that, maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Yeah, that did not happen, Mr. Funny Guy.
So you know, one of the things that was said about Jason the boyfriend, right about Morgan's boyfriend was that he didn't sound right or he didn't sound frantic enough, or whatever.
It's funny because I kind of disagree.
To me, he sort of sounded like somebody in shock.
Right.
Well, I think we now know that's exactly what he was.
When the sheriff's office, you know, first listened to that 911 call, they thought and you know I mean this is true.
911 calls get evaluated.
Just like you know, the homicide investigator is always very judgmental of what that first 911 call sounds like.
Does it sound right?
Does it sound forced?
Is it staged?
And so they were uh, They were looking at that pretty closely and they thought Jason Skarniecki has sounded too flat.
But yeah, I think you're right.
I think he was just stunned.
Yeah.
And who wouldn't be right?
Yeah.
I mean and you know not only that, not only did, did the sheriff's office listen to that 911 call and think the boyfriend doesn't sound right frantic enough?
They also on their first interview with Jason McDermott, thought this is this like little rabbity guy who owns a cat.
This is not our murderer.
And they were wrong both ways.
Right.
And I actually quoted you here in my notes, single guys with cats, Don't commit murder.
Right.
I mean, that's, that's certainly with my cat on my lap.
Well, um, uh, first of all, you're not a single guy.
Um, You know, I'm not sure that that theory, I'm not sure you disprove that theory, but you know that wasn't my theory.
That was the, that was the Stark County Sheriff's office that thought this guy, this guy is not a killer.
Do you like cats, Josh?
I'm a dog person.
I say that having no pets.
When I retire, I'm going to get a dog.
But until then, I travel too much, and I don't think that would be fair to the dog.
How many pets do you guys have?
We have a dog and three cats.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And since we do these from home, my cat. sits on my lap usually during the podcast.
So she just jumped down, though.
You might have heard her meowing earlier.
I don't know.
There was a great documentary about the 1986 Mets in which they interviewed Keith Hernandez, who was one of the stars of the team you know in present day.
And he had his cat with him.
Like during the entire documentary, the cat's like climbing all over him and it's all over the set.
It's in between the lens and him.
It was great.
It was like an extra character.
Speaking of Jason.
Yes.
The killer.
Yes.
The killer, Jason.
Jason is so creepy.
The things that he did looking through her phone taking – through Morgan's phone taking videos of Morgan.
Yes.
And then that whole episode with Sienna, also creepy.
All of it, super creepy.
And when I spoke with Jason, you know one of the things I said to him.
You know, and he's been locked up for years now
I said, you know, were you obsessed with Morgan Fox?
No, no, no, no.
Okay, well.
No.
Hold on one sec.
Sorry.
Phone's ringing.
Sorry.
I always like to ask you who calls because you seem to get calls in the middle of talking Dateland.
Who was it?
It's Amazon.
Be good if it were FedEx.
That would be it.
That's good.
But it's probably not.
Josh gets a package in the middle of a podcast about a package company, delivery company.
All right, so Jason, creepy.
One of the things I said, one of the things I asked Jason was whether he was obsessed with Morgan.
He's like, no, no, no, no.
Okay, well, you have like...
I don't know, like more than 100 photos of her in your phone, right?
This is not your girlfriend, but your phone is packed with photos and you were at least a party to sort of searching through her phone when she didn't have it.
And you've contacted her on text you know a zillion times.
That's obsession.
That's what that is.
And that's one of the reasons why, you know, Sienna complained that.
It's one of the reasons why Morgan complained.
Yeah.
Well and the you know Sienna, what really struck me was The moment that she decided to stop getting rides with him.
To work was really the tipping point for him.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, she loses her license.
He sort of gallantly steps in, which is kind of his MO, right?
His thing.
I'm going to be the heroic guy here.
Um, and he starts giving her rides.
And at one point she sort of feels guilty about the fact that he's going out and she's saying Santa says I made it very clear to him.
We are friends.
I am giving you gas money, nothing else going on here, but he wouldn't leave her alone.
And when she started getting rides from somebody else.
He was very unhappy.
Yeah, it he seems like a hothead.
Like if he doesn't get what he wants, then, you know, I guess the title of the show, right?
Breaking point.
Like he finally he finally snapped.
I mean, this is the first time that I've ever heard of a killer setting an alarm to go carry out the killing.
The analysis of his phone showed that he'd set his alarm earlier than he normally did.
But you know, this is a, this is a trend that we're, I think, increasingly going to see, because I think the criminals of this world have figured out that you know the equation of like where you are, where your phone is, law enforcement kind of also assumes you are.
And.
You know, Jason left his phone at home, went out, committed a murder and came home.
And he did this in the middle of the night at a time when most people's phones would be.
At their house and not being used because they would be asleep.
So that gave him a very plausible alibi and a window to commit the crime.
And if his car had not been tagged by that traffic camera, he'd be walking around today.
Yeah.
I'm working on a story right now, too, with a traffic camera or a tag reader.
You know, it's hard to get away with things these days, isn't it?
It's never been harder.
I mean, in this case, I mean, that traffic camera made all the difference.
Yeah, no, it's so true.
When we come back, we'll hear more from Josh's interview with the man at the center of this case, Morgan's killer, Jason McDermott.
Josh, your interview with Jason in prison.
You bring up the phone and you said in the show he was looking at Morgan's phone like it was a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue.
We have some more.
We have some sound about that.
So you're unjustly accused and convicted.
Correct.
Like I'm not going to say any of my behavior was all appropriate.
I had inappropriate behavior at times for sure.
I will never deny that.
But me inappropriate behavior like saving the pictures.
Yes, I can see how that is creepy and everything like that and I shouldn't have been doing it.
Creepy is a good word.
It is, yes.
And, like I said, having time to reflect on that yes, I 100 realize, like man, that's behavior i shouldn't have been doing.
I should not have.
Just because we're friends with social media doesn't mean i should have been saving every like the pictures that she sent me and stuff.
Yeah, i mean, you know his whole, i know uh, his whole message is the only thing i did wrong was look at her phone and then lie about having looked at her phone like like You know, like the nearly stalking-like behavior of making himself omnipresent for both Morgan and Sienna and like not picking up any message that these women wanted to be left alone to do their job.
He didn't get that.
Taking pictures of her without her consent.
Like the thing he thinks is wrong is I should have given her phone back sooner.
No, Jason.
Yeah.
Wrong answer.
And Josh, you cut to the chase with him.
You said, let me guess.
This is all a big mistake, which you knew.
You knew what I knew.
I knew he was going to say well, you know the interesting thing.
You know, this is one of the advantages of of this job that you and i have, which is frequently, when you're interviewing these guys, there's a point where they stop answering questions from police, like they got a lawyer or they just clammed up right or, in some cases, they don't talk at all and then they don't testify at trial because they don't want to face cross-examination of whatever story it is that they're telling.
And so this Dateline interview that they do when these guys do it, this is frequently the only time that they get cross-examined by anybody.
I was totally thinking that as I was watching your interview.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, this is a big responsibility for all of us at Dateline because this is frequently –
The only time that that person is going to get asked any tough questions.
It doesn't happen on the stand.
And you know, sometimes they'll do one or two or one and a half police interviews, kind of like he did.
Yes, yes.
And then they're not talking anymore.
They're not talking.
Yeah, I know.
It is really important for us.
And the families, they pay such close attention.
These interviews, and a lot of them are.
You know, their first instinct is you're not talking to him or her.
Are you?
You know, they don't they don't want you to.
And then they realize, you know what?
We will ask the tough questions.
We're actually telling the entire story.
Right.
And so we always try to talk to everybody involved.
But that doesn't mean that we're not going to ask this guy unpleasant questions, whoever he is, whether it's Jason or somebody else.
And we do.
We're always going to challenge them on their story.
And sometimes families really want that, as you point out.
Yeah.
FedEx.
At the end, we asked FedEx, your team on this story asked FedEx for a statement and I thought to myself okay,
They didn't really say too much other than their thoughts or prayers or hearts or whatever it was.
Go to the family.
But I'm thinking, you know, what I really wanted to hear was we've taken a really hard look at our guidelines for employees, or something.
It just felt – and maybe they are doing that, but it would have been nice to hear it publicly.
Yeah.
They just said our thoughts are with the family and friends of Morgan Fox.
Yeah.
And Amelia Morgan's daughter, her victim impact statement.
That was really one of the most heartbreaking victim impact statements.
To think of that poor little girl having to be in court in front of the man who killed her mom.
Assuming was she in court?
Or was it a recorded statement?
I don't know.
I was assuming she was there.
She was there.
Since we couldn't see her.
But, I mean, my goodness.
As the mom of five daughters, I just really did not enjoy listening to that.
I thought monsters weren't real, but you proved me wrong.
You hurt so many people.
You hurt me and the people i love.
You ruined your own life because of how much of a bad person you are.
It was heartbreaking.
You know she was there and he's trying.
He you know he knew her because he'd spent so much time around morgan.
He'd met that little girl And so at one point during the statement, like he's what everybody else's victim impact statement.
He's looking straight ahead.
Right.
He's not.
He's not.
They're not making an impact.
But she starts talking and he starts trying to look at her.
Right.
Turning around and look at her.
One of the court officers deliberately positions himself right in between i love that right, like jason and amelia so that he can't see her and she won't be intimidated or frightened by that.
Because she called him a right, she said he's a monster and now she's having to face the monster in court.
Yep, like just just absolutely heartbreaking.
Um, what i, what i hope is that that courageous act will one day be something that she'll look back on and think i, you know, i did it right.
I, i stuck up for my mom.
Yeah, i mean, it will shape her, you know, in some way, and i hope for good um, That she will be a strong you know girl who grows up to be a strong woman.
Because that statement was strong.
She was not, that little girl was not weak, you know, and you could hear it in her voice.
And that's Morgan Fox too.
And Morgan Fox, like never back down from a fight.
Like, that's what everybody said.
Always protecting.
I mean that attitude by Amelia that is straight from her mom, which is I'm not afraid of you and I'm going to say my truth.
And you know, Amelia's surrounded by really good people, at least it seems, because when they started talking about a Morgan,
You know, this idea that on the 22nd of every month, which is the birth date of Morgan, that you do something nice, you know, whether it's, you know, buy someone dinner or pay someone a compliment or do something nice.
After the break, we will answer some of your questions from social media.
Now, Josh, we are going to answer some questions and hear your comments from social media.
You ready?
I'm ready.
OK, let's start with Marsha Elford.
Marsha says why did the police not match the tire tracks on her lawn to the tires on Jason's car?
Wouldn't that have moved it from circumstantial evidence to factual?
The answer is yes, if you could have matched those tires and those tracks to one another, to the exclusion of all other cars.
But just as with the gun, which maybe came from Jason's parents' house, The tire tracks on the car were consistent, but not absolutely his car.
This was a circumstantial case.
And a lot of the cases we cover are largely circumstantial, sometimes all circumstantial.
And, you know, we see convictions all the time with circumstantial cases.
They're a lot tougher for prosecutors, and they make for interesting datelines.
You know, journalists are sort of in an abusive relationship with circumstantial evidence, because circumstantial cases are frequently very, very strong, which this one was.
It's one reason why the jury did not take forever to deliberate, I think.
So the idea that a circumstantial case sort of isn't a real case is not legitimate.
There was a great deal of evidence circumstantial evidence, but there was a great deal of evidence against Jason McDermott.
Okay, Josh Yeghead 22, don't recall it being mentioned during the show that Morgan and the other stalking victim worked at FedEx together.
Did I miss that?
Their careers at FedEx overlapped, but they were not close friends.
Sienna had nothing but good memories about Morgan, I think, but they were not pals.
They knew each other.
Okay, this is a sweet comment from Shelly Hossack.
I am going to celebrate Morgan on the 22nd of each month and do a Morgan.
Such a sad episode.
I think Morgan's family is on to something there.
I think everybody should do that.
That's a great thing.
It's great to make your mission doing something for somebody else once in a while.
It's great.
It feels good being nice to people, doesn't it, and doing nice things?
I'm going to start that next year, but I hear that it does feel good.
What do they say?
It's a lot easier to smile than it is to frown.
Right, right, exactly, yeah.
Look, Josh, we're smiling.
I know, look at that.
Okay, ChuckDZ76, oh, that baby's testimony broke me.
She shouldn't be mourning her mom, and it's Mother's Day weekend. chuck deasy longtime friend of dateline online um yeah um uh and as usual uh chuck is right it's um yeah it's it's i mean it's coincidence this that this ended up airing right before mother's day uh but that doesn't make it any less poignant or awful and uh You know, that little girl is still surrounded by family and she's doing very well.
I mean, we have so many sadly children that we've profiled on Dateline through the years that are without their mom.
Well, our hearts go out to all the children of victims from our stories.
It's absolutely heartbreaking.
But let's finish this on a lighter note, Josh.
We had a lot of fans apparently multitasking on Friday.
Francis MPU said, Knicks win.
Time for Dateline.
Go Knicks.
Hey, it's nice.
You know, Michael Ray Richardson just passed away a few months ago, but...
You know, he'd have been thrilled to see the Knicks coming back.
His famous quote, the ship be sinking when the Knicks were not doing well.
But now the Knicks are doing better.
Yeah, I've been to one Knicks game.
And a friend of mine this is going back quite a ways was dating someone the owner of the 76ers and they were playing the Knicks.
And so we went to the Knicks game and we sat courtside.
And it was quite a treat, I have to tell you.
I would have been in the nosebleeds.
You were leading a charmed life, Ms.
Canning.
Well, through a friend.
I mean, you know, anyway.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for all of your insight. in this Talking Dateline.
It was a very, very well done, fascinating episode.
That is it for Talking Dateline this week.
And thank you for listening.
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