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You're listening to Life Kit.
Hey there, Andy Tegel here in for Maryl Sigerra.
I'm a reporter on this show, but that's only one part of my identity.
I'm also a woman, a daughter, a partner, a Filipino American, a French-frienthusiast,
and more recently, a San Diego.
All this to say, there are so many elements that inform who we are and how we think and
how we show up in the world.
And none of these identity makers exist in a vacuum.
We're all just a great big combination of intersections.
So today, at the intersection of Mental Health Awareness Month and Asian American Pacific
Islander Month, we're talking to psychologist Jenny T. Wang.
She says, it's important to expand your lens in order to understand the forces shaping
your health and your identity.
For many children of immigrants or even immigrants themselves, part of what shaped their mental
health was the context in which they were trying to build lives in.
Jenny is the author of Permission to Come Home, Reclaiming Mental Health as Asian Americans.
And while no one person's experience will be exactly the same as the next, she says,
a lot of Asian Americans can face similar burdens.
For many immigrants who came to this country, my parents included, there were certain barriers.
There were things that were kind of threatening to their environment or to their lives.
And that could be racism.
That could be not speaking the language.
That could be a lot of different things that made them feel as though they didn't belong.
And so that starts to shape mental health and the narratives in which they might have
internalized.
So, through the line of the Asian American experience, the impulse to ask for permission first.
This idea that we need to ask our parents or ask our communities to make certain decisions
or to live certain lives or pursue certain careers.
Instead, Jenny says, it's time to practice some agency.
And so this idea of permission, I almost wanted us to reclaim a little bit and consider
this idea of permission claiming.
This idea that I can give myself permission to go into these spaces of my life were traditionally
it may have not been valued.
Something that was not discussed in our culture or even encouraged.
In this episode of LifeKit, mental health and the Asian American experience.
Whether or not you identify as AAPI, Jenny has great advice on everything from working
through guilt to defining home on your own terms.
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You write about how for a lot of Asian immigrant parents, there are three acceptable professions.
Dr. Lawyer, Engineer, Love That, Hilarious.
For Filipinos, I'll add Nurse to that.
You'll be hard pressed to find a Filipino family that doesn't have a nurse somewhere in that
extended line.
But anyway, this map is a really familiar narrative for a lot of people.
It tells you what to do, how to be, who your partner should be, where to go in order to
find success and safety.
Why is it so hard for us to veer from the courses our parents have set?
What steps can we take to start to carve our own authentic paths?
It is back to some of that ingrained framework that our parents offered to us.
We're not here to blame our parents, actually.
We're here to actually say that they had to survive certain situations that created certain
ways of thinking about how we should show up.
And so there is this scarcity mentality where a lot of immigrants' parents came here
with very little or were on their own and felt unsafe.
And so with that scarcity mentality, there is a fear that we may never be stable enough.
We may never have financial resources that are sufficient to make us feel comfortable in
this world.
And so that starts to frame some of the job opportunities that they encourage us to pursue
the educational attainment.
All of these benchmarks that they think will lead us to a better life, which is for a
lot of them why they came to this country in the first place.
So values such as creativity, social engagement, passion, mission, these are ideas that our
parents really didn't have the privilege to really access or do for themselves.
And so when this younger generation says, oh, but I want to pursue an art career and our
parents what they're thinking is you're not going to be able to make a sustainable living,
that terrifies them.
And so that anxiety then gets kind of pushed on to us and we have to manage both our uncertainty
as well as our parents and certain team.
And how do we start to do that?
Okay, Mom, okay, Dad, I want to be an artist.
What sort of template language, how can we start that conversation?
So for myself, I was training to become an accountant and yet I knew it was not the profession
for me.
I think ultimately I knew that even if I had become an accountant and gotten licensed and all
of that, I would have eventually left the career anyway.
And it would have been for not, right, because I was only doing this because it was what
my parents thought was the secure path.
Well, if I was miserable, how sustainable is that path over the long term?
And so I think in chapter, um, permission to choose, I kind of talk about different kind
of metrics or ways in which we can evaluate our decision making, right?
So choosing within our knowledge about who we are, our gifts, our drives, our talents,
choosing with sustainability in mind, right?
These are things that I think help ground us in those values and help us choose even if
the expectations out there are really different.
So I'm hearing, you know, self-awareness is really where it starts, having an honest conversation
with yourself, which on its own can be a really hard step.
And it will still be a big journey from there.
But if you, you know, if you have your sense of self, if you understand what you really
want, it can make the rest of the road easier.
We talked a lot about expectations with parents and there are a lot with family and some things
are said, some things are unsaid.
Maybe you have a parent who won't communicate something directly to you, but you can figure
out what their hopes or dreams are for you based on how they praise or criticize your best
friend, your cousin, you know, they compare and contrast all the time.
What do we do with that?
I think unfortunately, a lot of Asian people are doing so great in school and you should
try to be like that.
And maybe they wouldn't say that explicitly.
I wish I had the wherewithal to say, like, tell me more, what is behind that desire?
What is behind that kind of praise?
And what do you think that is bringing that person?
And why is that important to you?
You know?
And I think that's something that I can now say.
Just like a mother of my own, like I have that framework in that language.
But sometimes we can lead with curiosity.
Like for example, you know, maybe your parents are like, look, they have so many doctors
in the family, isn't that so great?
Right?
And you are over here thinking like, I don't even like math and science.
This is not something that's for me.
And so in that curious space, perhaps we can say, oh, well, that's really neat and I'm
so happy for these people.
And I think for me, I've realized that I really love this and it really makes me come alive
when I do this.
And so, you know, as much as, you know, I don't think I'm meant to be a doctor.
I really believe in this path.
And I would really appreciate your support in going that way.
That's great advice.
Leading with curiosity instead of immediately getting reactive or seeing it as a dig, just
open up some space, open up a space to see how everyone feels.
Last question here, we can't have a discussion about AAPI mental health without talking about
the model minority myth, something that you describe really well in the book.
You describe it as quote, a caricature of individuals who are hardworking, compliant, highly
educated, and passive in the face of mistreatment.
I know this is a big question, but Jenny, why is this trope so problematic?
It's problematic on so many levels.
And kind of creates this monolithic perspective of Asian-Americans, right, where somehow
they're all high achieving, they're successful, they're financially independent.
And this really erases the lived experiences of Asians who are living at the poverty line,
who are requiring social resources.
I also think that there's another layer in which, you know, the model minority myth is
kind of rooted in the sense that we are pitted against other marginalised groups.
And when the model minority myth kind of was brought into, I guess, social awareness
here, it was in the midst of the civil rights movement.
And so Asian-Americans were suddenly touted as these super successful minorities who had
somehow in spite of marginalisation become successful.
So it really pitted us against other individuals of colour who were all trying to kind of survive
in this racist world.
And so I think that in many ways, the model minority keeps us from being able to build
coalitions with other marginalised groups who are being impacted by racism every day.
And then finally, the model minority also impacts mental health, because it creates this facade
that Asian-Americans don't struggle.
They don't struggle with depression, that they are somehow just so like stoic and so mentally
fit, that they don't show any of that to the outside world.
And I think this coupled with the idea of saving face, which we don't air out our dirty
laundry right out into the world.
We don't talk about our mental health or our family struggles with this stranger.
That feels shameful, right?
So that coupled with a model minority, I think makes it difficult for us to admit when
we are really struggling inside.
Next question obviously is, what can we do about it?
I think for me personally, I think about assimilation and what a high value that was when my grandparents
first came here.
And to make it was to have no one think about you as Filipino.
The next generation is trying to find their sense of selves.
What do you do about that?
Yeah, I think when you think about this idea of like, don't rock the boat, keep your head
down, right?
Don't stick out.
That was a trauma response, right?
However, context has changed.
And I think as we see more Asian-Americans in spaces that are being very vocal, right?
In media and politics, you know, in the news, like there is much more visibility and collective
power comes more privilege to now speak out.
And so one of the things I always encourage, you know, people to do is do you know even
your own history?
And I think that's the piece that sometimes we're missing because we grew up in a country
where we felt perhaps disconnected from our ancestors, our homelands and our generations
before us.
So one is, can I learn my story so that I understand not just the pain of my people, but
the resiliency of my people, the strength of my people.
And then also, are there spaces in my life in which I can actually start to take up a
little bit more space?
And that might just look like, you know, not averting my eyes when I'm walking with my
kids in our neighborhood, right?
But instead, confidently waving hello to a neighbor and making myself visible.
And that can be really scary as people of color, but at the same time, if we comply or become
complicit to our own invisibility, we will never be seen as whole authentic people.
All right, so turning to the family, another big one is guilt.
Guilt, Catholic, I come from a family of immigrants.
So this one was huge for me.
And I'm sure for lots and lots of people out there, there are so many reasons guilt can
pop up in your life.
You have some great advice in the book about how to work with and through guilt.
Could you lay out a few of those ideas for us?
Sure, absolutely.
So guilt as a human emotion has stuck around because it has a function.
It's adaptive, right?
When I've done harm towards someone, I may feel guilt and that will prompt me to apologize
to engage them to figure out how to do better next time.
And that's the purpose of guilt.
It keeps us in relationship with each other.
The problem is that we also have guilt in instances where perhaps we haven't done any
real tangible harm.
You can say that again, yeah.
But we feel as though we actually have failed to meet a certain expectation or a certain
kind of framework that we believe someone holds for us.
And so in those instances, we need to kind of check, is that really what our parents
or our community expects of us?
And I use the example that recently I had a conversation with my own mother.
And I said, I always felt like I needed to support y'all.
And that's why I felt pressure to become an accountant because I thought that's how
I would have the financial security to support my parents.
Well, she looked at me and she said, but we've never expected that from you.
I'm not sure where you got that idea from.
And so I think a lot of times we internalize a lot of these expectations.
So one, we have to seek out clarity about whether or not that expectation is true and
real.
And secondly, we also have to question whether or not that guilt is bringing us closer
to the life we want to live or further away.
So I use self-care as an example, right?
A lot of people will say, when I engage in self-care, when I take an hour of my day to
just take care of myself, I feel guilt.
And I have to say, okay, let's be curious about that guilt for a moment.
Have you caused harm?
No, I haven't.
Two, do you feel like you've failed an expectation that someone has imposed upon you?
Yes, I do.
I feel like I should be in service of everyone else first and then myself.
Okay, but how does this align with the values that you uphold about how to live a healthy
life?
Well, the guilt actually is an opposition to that idea of a healthy life because a healthy
life means that I create boundaries.
I say no, I protect myself so that I can use my resources effectively.
And so in this instance, the guilt actually is a detractor from our value of trying to
live a healthy, mental, and physical life.
And so we have to kind of be able to use that guilt more flexibly and really question,
is it helping us or is it actually keeping us from living the life we want to live?
Good reminder, hard in practice, good reminder.
And you mentioned this just now, I think guilt goes hand in hand with setting boundaries.
For yourself and also when especially when it comes with family, Jenny, how and why should
we set boundaries with family with ourselves?
So when we think about boundaries, I think within Asian cultures, almost thought of as
disconnection.
If I set a boundary, I'm creating a wall between us.
And so I think that sometimes it's hard to do that because culturally, those boundaries
might look really different in Asian culture than it does in Western culture.
And at the same time, I think when we don't have boundaries, it means that we are essentially
giving away our time, our energy, all our resources without any sense of whether or not
we have capacity to give those things away.
And so I think this idea that we need to be selfless, we need to be sacrificial.
Those are not bad things.
However, if you do that endlessly over the course of your life, guess what happens?
We get resentful, we feel angry, we feel completely depleted.
And so I think those boundaries are meant for us to be able to reserve some of that capacity
for ourselves so that we can do and pursue the things that really do matter to us while
also staying in relationship with the people we love.
We don't set boundaries with people who we will never see again.
We set boundaries with people whom we want to stay in connection with, but also remain
a part of the equation.
And so boundaries should actually be thought of as a way of loving each other well.
Finally, I want to talk about what it means to come home.
To come home to ourselves, to our family, as immigrants or children of immigrants, or
even if your family has been here forever, but you look other, it can be hard to find a
place that fits.
So can you walk us through some of the barriers to finding home and also elements that
might help us craft a sense of belonging for ourselves?
I think with the barriers of finding a home, and especially as immigrants, where some
times I go back to Taiwan and I don't feel at home there either because I'm seen as
two western, two outspoken, two opinionated.
And so even in my homeland of my ancestors, I don't feel at home.
And here in America, I've lived for almost my entire life and sometimes I still don't
feel at home as well.
And so home now no longer is a physical place, but perhaps it is a condition of being.
And the author activist James Baldwin had said that perhaps home is an irrevocable condition
in which we cannot be turned out from.
We cannot be distanced or cast out from.
And so in many ways, I think Asian Americans, we are now being intentional about building
a home for ourselves through our creativity, through our organizing, through our networks
and communities, and finding strength in that.
And I think that crafting a home has to be an intentional practice.
And then I talk through in the book, kind of these four ideas, safety, right, and belonging,
authenticity and compassion.
And sometimes there will be spaces in our lives where we only feel two of the four, or
one of the four, or none.
And that will impact or moderate then how I show up in that space.
And so I kind of encourage people in the book to find your own kind of cardinal spaces
or ideas to ground or root that anchor of home.
Jenny T. Wang, author of permission to come home.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you so much for having me.
I was so lovely to chat with you.
For more life kit, check out our other episodes.
I hosted one on overcoming the likability trap, another on reframing productivity, and
we've got lots more on everything from parenting to mental health.
You can find those at nperer.org slash life kit.
And if you love life kit and want more, subscribe to our newsletter at nperer.org slash life kit
newsletter.
Also, we'd love to hear from you.
If you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us at life kit at mpr.org.
This episode of life kit was produced by Michelle Oslam.
Maryl Sigerra is our host.
Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan.
Our digital editor is Malta Gareeb.
Megan Cain is the supervising editor.
Beth Donovan is the executive producer.
Our production team also includes Margaret Serrino, Claire Marie Schneider and Sylvie Douglas.
Engineering support comes from David Greenberg and Becky Brown.
I'm Andy Tagle.
Thanks for listening.
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