In a world where history is always happening, where donuts are good and mayonnaise is disgusting, one woman dares One weird woman dares to host a history podcast.
Aluminum, linoleum, aluminum, linoleum.
A podcast that is more powerful than a locomotive...
Faster than a school bus on a Monday morning.
Slow down.
Wait, please.
Hold the door.
And more factual than your uncle at the dinner table.
I'm telling you, Bigfoot is out there and I know because I saw him.
One strange woman, along with her trusty co-hosts, will bring you a brand new batch of episodes where they explore topics like Thanksgiving, libraries and gum.
Look how big I can blow my bubble gum.
Aaliyah, look at me.
Are you watching, Aaliyah?
One woman who is desperate for attention.
Hey, Aaliyah, look at me, Aaliyah, Aaliyah, Aaliyah.
Aaliyah!
Aaliyah!
Aaliyah!
Aaliyah!
...will use her special superpowers to chart the Uncharted.
Superpowers like reading really fast.
If your daddy's name is Jim and if Jim swims and if Jim's slim, the perfect Christmas gift for him is a set of slim Jim swim fins.
Drinking really spicy soup.
That's soup-er spicy.
Get it?
Soup-er, soup-er.
And pulling the popcorn out of the microwave at just the right time.
And done.
Joy, hold on.
These aren't special superpowers.
These are just weird things that you're good at.
I know, but I wanted to make a trailer because you do that dramatic movie voice so well.
Maybe that's your superpower.
We are both super.
Let's end this really dramatically.
Let's do it.
Never a bore.
Uncovering lore.
Two plus two is four.
It's time to explore the before.
Hello, you're listening to Forever Ago from APM Studios.
I'm Joy Dolo, and my co-host today is Aaliyah from Tennessee.
Hi, Aaliyah.
Hi, Joy.
I'm so happy to be back.
Aaliyah, in honor of the first episode of our fourth season...
Hooray for us!
Hooray indeed!
I've decided to create a superhero who has all the powers of a forever-ago episode.
Ooh, so they're super curious?
Yeah, and super smart.
Also, they have x-ray vision to see into the dusty, forgotten corners of history and super strength to carry all these books I checked out from the library for research.
Oof, heavy.
I love it.
What's the superhero gonna be named?
I'm thinking Forever a Girl.
Or maybe The Fantastic Four Ever.
Or a history podcast for kids and families, woman.
Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
That it doesn't, no.
Hi, friends.
Oh, hey, it's Brains On host Molly Bloom.
What's up, Molly?
Well, I couldn't help overhearing that you're trying to create a brand new superhero.
Molly, we've talked about this.
The eavesdropping.
But Joy, I can't help it that I have such excellent hearing and that you talk so loud.
It's true.
My mom just texted me from the parking lot with a suggestion for a superhero name.
She heard us all the way through the building's double-paned windows and her super thick windshield.
Okay, fine.
It's actually pretty special come to think about it.
Let's add super loud voice to my list of superpowers.
So your superhero has lots of cool powers, but what's their origin story?
Well, um... You see?
It's actually...
Uh, what's an origin story?
Oh, Aaliyah, I'm so glad you asked.
An origin story is the story of how your superhero came to be so gosh darn super in the first place.
Ooh, fun.
Okay, let's start brainstorming.
How about a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?
Oh, I've heard that one before.
Oh, I've got a super original one.
In West Philadelphia, born and raised.
I'm pretty sure I've heard that one too.
What if you look to your own stories for inspiration?
Oh, I don't know.
I'm just a normal, super talented and charismatic podcast host.
Not sure if that translates into a superhero.
Well, what if I told you that the very first superhero was created and inspired by the lives of two regular kids in the 1930s?
I'd be very interested to hear that story.
Well, that's great news because that's what this episode is all about.
Wait, did you say the very first superhero?
That's gotta be... Superman!
That's right.
Superman was the very first costume superhero.
If you like Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Batman or any other caped, masked or spandex superhero, you have Superman to thank for paving the way.
Superman!
He wears a tight blue shirt and a pair of blue tights with a red pair of underpants on top.
He has matching red boots and a long flowing red cape.
Emblazoned on his chest is a giant red S.
His powers are super strength, super speed, laser eyes, freezing breath, and he can leap tall buildings in a single bound.
Born on a distant planet, he was sent to Earth as a baby and raised by a kind human family.
In order to live a normal life, he hides his super self behind another identity.
That of Clark Kent, a shy, nerdy reporter at the local newspaper.
No one knows he is Superman.
Chills.
So good, you two.
Thanks.
But how was that story inspired by two normal kids?
Were they aliens?
Oh my gosh, they were aliens?
From Krypton?
Um, no, not aliens.
They were Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, and they lived in Cleveland.
Cleveland?
They lived in Cleveland?
In Ohio?
Not sure that needs the same astonishment as the alien idea, but I like your enthusiasm, Joy.
Yes, Jerry and Joe lived in Cleveland.
They met in high school there in the early 1930s.
In the early 1930s, people didn't have computers or cell phones.
Right.
There were phones that plugged into the wall.
They had a base with a round dial and a piece you held in your hand and put it up to your face.
One end for your ear, the other for your mouth.
There were no TVs or video games, but there were magazines and newspapers and radios and movie theaters.
It was also the beginning of the Great Depression, a time when many businesses were struggling and it was hard to find jobs.
A lot of people didn't have much money.
Absolutely.
And both Joe and Jerry's families struggled to make ends meet.
The two boys helped where they could, and in their free time they threw themselves into their passions.
For Jerry, it was writing, and specifically, writing science fiction.
He was always turning out stories.
Antares was a cruel and unyielding world to any soul unfortunate to land there.
And for Joe, it was drawing.
He would pore over the Sunday comics that came in the weekly newspaper.
Inspired by the gorgeous art, he'd draw for hours.
Now, as anyone who's been to school knows, you're often alphabetized by your last names.
Definitely in the yearbook, but maybe your locker or your desk, too.
Well, Jerry and Joe found themselves alphabetized together.
Hi, I'm Joe, Joe Schuster.
And I'm Jerry, Jerry Siegel.
They realized they both loved reading science fiction magazines.
Hey Joe, I gotta show you this thing I wrote.
I have a few sketches you might want to see.
They quickly became best friends, and pretty soon, also a writing team.
Jerry described it in a later interview as When Joe and I first met, it was like the right chemicals coming together.
Okay, so it's always wonderful to meet a friend who gets you, especially in high school.
But Molly, where is my superhero inspiration?
I need help with my origin story.
Yeah, origin stories don't grow on trees, Molly.
You're right, you're right.
Okay.
So when Joe and Jerry met, they realized they both loved sci-fi and they both loved to tell stories.
So they teamed up.
Jerry would write the words and Joe would create the images.
And then they came up with Superman?
Not quite yet.
The first comic strip they made together was called Interplanetary Police.
Let me guess.
It was about police who fought crime in space?
2,000 years hence.
Fantastic aircraft star overhead.
It is the year 3000 A.D.
With interplanetary travel came a new menace.
Space pirates.
And in their wake, policemen of the sky.
They were still figuring it out.
While they were in high school, they printed a magazine called Popular Comics, full of comic strips the two created together, such as the comedy duo Snoopy and Smiley.
Smiley, when that lady dropped her handkerchief, you permitted her to retrieve it herself.
Now why didn't you pick it up?
I had one of my own.
There was a Tarzan parody called Goober the Mighty.
Goober slips and falls.
The bee zooms down for the death thrust.
Will the princess be too late to save Goober?
Of course she won't.
Next, Goober's Revenge.
And there were lots more.
Inko, Public Pest, Louisville Lil, Gloria Glamour.
I could go on, but I won't.
I was going to ask how that went for them, but since I haven't heard of any of those comic strips, I'm guessing not great.
Yeah, people weren't buying popular comics.
I do appreciate that name, though.
Definitely trying to manifest their dreams through words.
Like if I started calling myself Chili Cook-Off Winner Joy, or Olympic Gymnast Joy, or Beyonce-Level Famous Joy.
But then, in 1933, before their senior year of high school, Joe and Jerry came up with the idea that would make them famous.
Superman!
Finally, the origin story!
The way Jerry told the story later in life makes it sound like something out of a dream.
Here's how he remembered it.
The air was still and heavy.
Clouds drifted past the moon.
Up there was wind.
If only I could fly.
If only.
And Superman was conceived.
Not in his entirety, but little by little throughout a long and sleepless night.
As the legend goes, Jerry plotted out this new character's story and rushed over to his friend Joe's first thing in the morning.
They sketched out a pitch for his new comic idea and sent it to some comic book publishers in Chicago.
And then, overnight success.
Superman cereal.
Superman lunchboxes.
Superman underwear.
Um, no.
The pitch failed.
We were both so mad.
How could they look at such brilliance and just cast it aside?
How could they?
Well, the comic wasn't quite there yet.
It was a bit rushed and missing some of the crucial elements we would come to know as important parts of the Superman backstory.
A lot of that would come when Joe and Jerry added a little bit of their own backgrounds into Superman's origin story.
Finally!
But Joy, I understand you have something important to take care of first.
Oh, the suspense.
But I sure do.
It's time for... Okay, let's put these superheroes in the order they were created.
Spider-Man, Batwoman, and Black Panther.
Okay Aaliyah, which do you think came first, which came second and which came most recently in history?
I feel like Spider-Man was kind of like the middle.
Yeah.
Because it wasn't like the earliest, but it wasn't the newest either.
Mm-hmm.
Good guess.
Have you seen any Batwoman comics or TV shows or anything like that?
I used to watch it with my cousin when I was really young, so I can't really remember a lot of it.
But I think Batwoman, Spider-Man, and then Black Panther.
Yeah.
Have you seen any of the Black Panther movies?
Yes, I saw both.
Yeah, I saw them too.
They were so good.
So good.
I loved it.
I love whenever they run across a field.
Yes.
I feel like I'm running even though I'm just sitting and watching.
But I agree with this order.
I think this is right.
So we'll hear the answers after the credits.
Here at Forever Ago, we love talking about the surprising history behind some of our favorite inventions.
Like, remember how the microwave was invented totally by accident?
Or how the person who invented Velcro came up with the idea after his dog came home covered in sticky little burrs.
Listeners, we want to hear from you.
Do you have an invention you want to shout out for being totally awesome?
It could be something unusual or something totally common that you think deserves more love.
Send us a recording of yourself sharing your favorite invention and what's great about it at foreveragoorg slash contact.
Aaliyah, what's an invention you feel like you couldn't live without?
That's a hard one because there's a lot of inventions that have been made and I really really, really loved.
Um, that's really hard.
I know it's hard.
I feel like today I couldn't live without my backpack because I put everything inside of it to travel, so much stuff in there, because I have to like switch between like two classes and it's a mess.
Yeah, it's a lot going on, but my backpack, or like pens, like because I love to color and draw, and stuff, like I don't think I could live without that.
Is there something like that for you?
I really like art and stuff.
I can't live without that.
But I think the main thing is like toothbrushes.
That is a great answer.
Brushing your teeth is necessary.
So necessary.
Yeah.
We can't wait to hear your invention mentions too.
Send them to us at foreverago.org slash contact.
And we'll be right back.
You're listening to Forever Ago.
I'm Joy.
And I'm Aaliyah.
Okay Molly, we're ready to hear about how Superman's origin story reflects the lives of his creators.
Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.
I asked Brad Ricca for help on this.
He's a writer and historian.
Everyone knows Superman's origin.
You know, as a baby, he has rocketed from the planet Krypton and comes to Earth for a new life.
I mean, this is the immigrant story.
Brad wrote a book about Joe and Jerry called Superboys, and he's from Cleveland, too.
Cleveland?
He's from Cleveland?
In Ohio?
Yes, Cleveland.
And Brad says you can draw a direct line from this new Superman origin story they came up with to Joe and Jerry's experiences as first-generation immigrants.
Hey, I'm a first-generation immigrant, too.
That means my parents moved here from a different country, but I was born here, the first generation to be born in this new country.
Where did your family immigrate from, Joy?
Why did they come to the U.S.?
?
My parents came to the United States from Liberia, which is a country in West Africa, and they came in the early 80s.
They came because they wanted to give us a life with lots of opportunities.
Oh, that's really cool.
Both Joe and Jerry's parents immigrated to the US from Eastern Europe, specifically from land controlled by Russia.
They were Jewish, and those areas were really hard to live in if you were a Jew.
There was a lot of anti-Semitism.
Anti-Semitism is a word for when people hate someone just because they're Jewish.
When Joe and Jerry's parents were growing up in the late 1800s and early 1900s, Jewish people faced a lot of violence.
Sometimes groups of Christian Russians would raid Jewish villages or neighborhoods, burning buildings and killing people.
Police and the military did nothing to stop them or sometimes even took part in the violence themselves.
These acts of violence were called pogroms, which is Yiddish for destruction and devastation.
Some Jews, like Jerry's dad Michal, were forced to join the Russian army.
He and other Jews were bullied and looked at as less than human.
Jerry's and Joe's parents scraped together enough money to flee the violence in their homelands, both eventually landing in Cleveland, where their American sons, Joe and Jerry, created Superman.
Joe and Jerry used a similar story for their new hero.
But instead of fleeing to a new country, Superman's parents sent their kid to a different planet to avoid destruction.
Okay, this is super cool.
I see the similarities now.
And there's more.
When he arrives on Earth, Superman gets a new identity that helps him blend in.
Oh, right.
He becomes Clark Kent, a seemingly average American guy.
It's a way to hide his true background.
Exactly.
Joe and Jerry kind of did the same thing, but rather than having an alter ego, they blended in by becoming more American.
They didn't dress or act like their parents did in their home countries.
Clark Kent has glasses.
He's shy.
He has a crush on someone who doesn't like him back.
Which also describes Joe and Jerry in high school.
That's the identity Superman puts on to blend in with humans.
But his superpowered self, that's him representing his home planet.
Exactly.
And he has to juggle these two identities and try to keep them separate, something American Jews like Joe and Jerry were very familiar with.
Here's Brad again.
And we hear this from you know tons of first generation Americans of trying to find their way, with their foot in one old culture and the other foot in the new culture of America.
And that's Superman.
Joy, does that ring true to you as a first-generation immigrant?
Absolutely.
I grew up with a lot of African families in my neighborhood, and my school was predominantly white.
I felt like I didn't belong with the African Americans either.
Our culture was so different from the United States.
Like, we ate different foods, we had different hairstyles, and my parents have accents.
I felt like I was in a maze, like I had to pick what world I belonged to.
That feels similar to me.
Really?
What do you mean?
Sometimes in my older schools, like when I was younger, I felt like I wasn't, I couldn't fit in, because usually there wasn't a lot of my skin color kids or just black kids in general there.
Yeah.
But now, like, there's a lot of kids who are my skin color or black now that I'm in fifth grade.
Oh, how does that make you feel?
It makes me feel really good.
Like, it makes me feel like I belong there.
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
Because it's hard when you're just kind of like on your own, like it gets kind of lonely.
Yeah.
And it's hard to like just walk up to people that maybe you might think might not understand you or know what you're trying to like.
A lot of people didn't get my jokes.
Like, you know, they wouldn't understand things.
But yeah, it takes some time just to get comfortable in your own skin.
And then like, and then it's easier to kind of make friends with anyone, you know.
Yeah.
So I hear you.
I get it.
So Joe and Jerry graduated high school and eventually got jobs writing and drawing comic books.
But they were still waiting for someone to publish Superman.
They kept at it, pitching it over and over again.
And then about five years after they first dreamed up Superman, he made his official debut.
Superman!
Champion of the oppressed.
The physical marvel who had sworn to devote his existence to those in need.
Superman was a huge hit.
He went on to be in radio shows.
Presenting Superman!
Up in the sky!
Look!
It's a bird!
It's a plane!
It's Superman! television programs, action figures, and lots of movies.
Superman.
This is Superman.
You mean, you think I'm Superman?
He's truly an American icon.
Definitely.
And he was dreamt up and made famous by kids.
Here's my friend Bradigan.
These two kids who had nothing created this.
And what a story that is.
And it is a big corporate logo now.
But Superman started in somebody's bedroom on a piece of paper with a pencil.
So many of those kids reading him in the 30s were first-generation Americans too, and they knew what it felt like.
And it just so happens I know one of these kids pretty well.
He's not a kid anymore, though.
My name is Richard G. Honigs, but I'm known as Dick or Dickie.
My Grandpa Dickie is 92 years old, and his parents and grandparents came to the US around the same time.
Joe and Jerry's parents came also, fleeing anti-Semitism in Europe.
My mother was born in a small town in Poland.
The town that she grew up in was probably 70 or 80 percent Jewish.
So when and why did her family come to America?
Well, clearly it was due to pogroms that would occur from time to time in that area of Poland.
Did your parents speak Yiddish to each other?
They spoke English?
My parents spoke English.
But if they didn't want me to understand what they were talking about, they would speak Yiddish.
Of course, that led me to understand the Yiddish.
And they didn't realize that they were educating me at the time.
Sneaky.
So sneaky.
It was very, very tricky.
Because I didn't let on I knew what it was all about.
It's interesting.
I remember my mother telling me the story when she first came to this country and the school system enrolled her in kindergarten.
Well, she was really, really offended because she was seven years old.
She could read, write, not English.
And that's why they put her in the kindergarten class, because she is bigger than everybody else and older, and assigned things that were too simple for her.
So she was really offended by that.
And she worked very hard to learn English in order to get into the proper grade.
So I said, mom, you didn't need to be ashamed.
She said, I didn't speak the language.
I said, well, no, but you spoke a lot of other languages.
He spoke Polish.
He spoke Ukrainian.
He spoke German.
He spoke Yiddish.
And you could read and write in all those languages.
My parents were very patriotic for America and they recognized the difference especially my mother from where they came and where they ended up.
Dickie and his friends grew up in a primarily Jewish Minneapolis neighborhood.
They heard stories about Europe and carried on in the same Jewish traditions.
At the same time, they were embracing America and Superman.
He looked like he was really a cool guy.
I couldn't get my hair to quite look like that, though.
Or my muscles.
And you dressed as him for Halloween?
Yes, I decided I would be Superman.
My mother helped me find the Superman outfit.
But the custom then was to wear white socks, so I wore white socks over my booties.
I think it detracted a little bit from being Superman.
But the girls at the party all thought it was daring, and the guys all thought I was silly.
My grandpa Dickie and his friends felt a special connection to Superman.
We identified the authors, the story writer and the artist, as a couple of young Jewish guys.
So they became heroic in their own way, to me at least.
How did you know they were Jewish?
By their names.
So if you had the last name Siegel and Schuster, you were Jewish.
That's right.
And it was easy to identify with the fact that it was written by a couple of young Jewish guys.
And I could understand what was going through their minds.
Superman resembled a huge, powerful guardian against crime, against evildoers, protected the innocent.
It was easy to identify with a hero like that.
There were kids like Dickie all over the U.S., and they loved Superman.
Comics featuring Joe and Jerry's creation were flying off the shelves.
Do you have action comics?
One with Superman?
Sure do, kid.
That'll be 15 cents.
Superman was an instant hit, but back then there were no computers or social media to see how well something was doing.
So how did they know it was an instant hit?
Well, my friend Brad Ricka has the story.
So there's this story that the head of the comics company at the time wanted to know how Superman was doing.
So he had a tried and true method of doing this.
He would, you know, leave his plush office and walked downstairs New York City, walked to the corner and he would go to the newsstand and he would ask the guy who ran the newsstand you know what's selling?
And he said the one with Superman.
And he asked him you know who's buying it?
It's the kids.
Excuse me, do you have the comic with Superman?
Sure do, kiddo.
And it was kids who got Superman off the ground and to where he is today.
Even though superheroes are run by giant corporations now, they were put there by kids first.
Okay, that is a super-de-duper cool origin story.
Thanks for sharing it with us, Molly.
My pleasure.
I'm feeling really inspired now.
So I've written my own origin story.
Joy was a middle child in Tennessee.
Her parents moved to Minnesota when she was 10.
It was really hard and Joy was quite sad.
But then her mentor, Kevin Dutcher, invited her to do a play and it changed her life.
Now she is an actor and a podcast host by day and a super cake eating, super dog walking, super puzzle making genius by night.
Maybe I should get a cape.
Aaliyah, what would your superpower be?
I have been waiting this question all my life.
I literally have been thinking about it for like the longest time.
Oh my gosh, the anticipation.
Okay, so I feel like my superpower would have something that would involve my favorite color.
Okay.
Like, I like this type of light purple.
And I feel like it would involve maybe like something glittery or shiny.
So it'd be like a color that would like, just like you would turn everything into that color?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, kind of like, um, have you guys seen the TV show Avatar?
I've heard of it.
I don't think I've seen it.
Basically, it would look like air superpowers from a TV show, but purple.
Okay, I get it.
That's a pretty cool superpower.
And there's glitter involved, so I'm in.
Love glitter.
This episode was written by Molly Bloom.
We had help from Nico Gonzalez-Whistler, Sandon Totten, Shayla Farzan, and Aaron Woldes-Lossie.
Anna Goldfield, Rosie DuPont, Ruby Guthrie, and Anna Wagle.
Sound design by Rachel Breeze.
Theme music by Mark Sanchez.
Beth Perlman is our executive producer.
We had engineering help from Alex Simpson, Anna Hoverman, and Dave Walton.
The executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavadi, Joanne Griffith, and Alex Shafford.
Special thanks to Lulu, Coco, Andy Doucette, Bear Tortorello, and Caleb Walls.
If you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
Check it out at foreverago.org slash contact.
Okay, Aaliyah, ready to hear the answers for First Things First?
Yeah, yeah!
Yeah, yeah!
Okay, so as a reminder, we're putting these superheroes in the order they were created.
And you chose Batwoman, Spider-Man, and then Black Panther.
Drum roll, please.
Oh, my gosh.
Do you want to hear something nutty?
You were absolutely right.
What?
Yes, you are a super podcast person.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Pump it up.
Pump it up.
So first, it was Batwoman.
She made her comic debut in 1956.
And like Batman, she has no superpowers but is very wealthy.
I am all about that life.
She's also a former circus performer.
She decided to use her acrobatic skills and money to imitate Batman and become a costumed crime fighter, which is amazing.
And then second was Spider-Man, who made his debut in 1962.
He was a regular teenage boy until he got bitten by a radioactive spider which gave him super spidey powers, which we're all kind of familiar with.
I love Spider-Man.
Me too.
Yeah.
And then third, last but not least, was the Black Panther, who first appeared in 1966.
His superpowers come from the ability to harness a powerful substance called vibranium, found in his homeland of Wakanda, and a magical herb that gives him superhuman strength and senses.
So what do you think about that?
You did it.
You're so smart.
Well, first of all, I'm really surprised because I've never got first things first right before.
It's a big day.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is, too, we were talking about Black Panther and how we both saw the movies.
I didn't know that it came out in the 60s.
I didn't either.
Yeah, that's like a long time ago.
I thought it came out in the mid-2000s.
Yeah, yeah.
I guess it's been around for a long time.
And I'm going to have to do some research on Batwoman because that sounds like the life I want to live.
Yes.
We'll be back next week with an episode all about the history of Thanksgiving.
Thanks for listening.
