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Hey there, podcast listeners.
I have exciting news.
we're launching a brand new podcast in addition to super soul conversations it's called oprah's master class the master class podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors musicians public figures and athletes in their own words listen as jay -z justin timberlake ellen degeneres shaquille o 'neal reba mcintyre duane johnson and jane fonda just to name a few share what they've learned about life and their their own insights into their personal stories and challenges.
I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class.
Oprah's Masterclass podcast is available now on Apple Podcasts.
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Go to applepodcast .com slash Oprah's Masterclass.
I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Born in Chicago and raised a devout Catholic, Carolyn May says she was just eight years old when she discovered her gift, her intuition.
intuition. I first met Carolyn in 1998.
By then, she had become well -known for doing readings to help people heal.
Carolyn said she could also gauge people's health without a physical examination and referred to herself as a medical intuitive.
I invited Carolyn to Harpo Studios to get together and talk and hear her unique perspective on some of life's big questions that will help us all feed our soul.
1998, we're sitting in the other studio right across this wall, and we were talking about this book, Anatomy of the Spirit.
And you and I were really into it and having a conversation.
I look out in the audience, and I see people's eyes, not glazing over, but just I could tell they were not with us.
And I stopped. Do you remember this?
Yes, I do. I stopped taping, and I said, okay, everybody, stop.
stop. Do you all understand what we're talking about?
I said, we're talking about anatomy of the spirit.
And a woman stood up and said, no, we really don't.
What are you talking about spirit?
You stopped to explain what we meant by spirit.
Can you do that again for all of our super soul family?
I sure can. I think the way to understand your spirit is that it's the part of you that is seeking meaning and purpose.
That's one way someone can relate to that.
Another way to understand spirit is that it's the part of you that feels, um, that is drawn to hope.
That's one way to understand spirit.
The part of you that is drawn to hope.
Everyone can relate to that.
Right. The part of your spirit that is simply drawn to hope, that will not give in to despair, the part of you that has to believe in goodness, that has to believe in something more.
It's the light of you.
It's the light of you.
But light needs to have a word. Like, what does that feel like?
It feels like hope.
It feels like hope.
It feels like grace.
Okay, that's really clear.
I got that. Everyone can get that.
Yeah. Because nobody wants to be hopeless.
It's the part that says, no, no, no. I got to have hope.
That's a tweetable quote there.
your spirit is a part of you that feels like hope.
Yep, there it is. Tweet tweet.
There it is. There it is.
There it is. And, and everyone says, I get that.
I get that. I get that.
Okay. You say in Anatomy of Spirit, page 170, from a spiritual perspective, in fact, the entire physical world is nothing more than our classroom.
But the challenge to each of us in this classroom is will you make the choices that you make to enhance your spirit or those that drain your power.
I love that you said that because I had just earlier today was explaining to someone that I think the world is a whole classroom and probably I read it in this book 15 years ago and I'm now taking that on to be my own explanation.
But that's how I see the world, as this super classroom room and that's why the idea of what we do on this channel life class i you know using other people's life as a life as a class using your life as a class is so stimulating to me well that's the whole and and seeing this is the earth school it is an earth school it is an earth school and if you saw everything about your life as a learning as a lesson as i'm looking for truth and i'm I'm looking for is does this drain power?
Am I empowering with every choice I make?
I'm either choosing to grace somebody or withhold it, to give power or to take it back.
If people understand that every single thing, I'm either going to learn something from this or I'm not.
So every single choice we make is either going to enhance the spirit or it's going to drain the spirit.
There's nothing in between.
There is nothing in between.
What one choice? Well, give me one choice that could be in between.
There isn't. There isn't.
There isn't. Another way to say that is you're either walking in the direction of love or you're walking away from it.
You're walking to fear, right?
There is no other choice.
Even if you thought, even if you're in a grocery store and you're thinking, should I buy this or not?
And your gut says, you know you can't eat that.
And you decide, I'm not going to listen to that voice.
right there, even in that tiny thing, you've walked toward fear.
Wow. Yes. Because you've blocked your intuitive voice.
So every day, in the smallest of ways and the largest of ways, yeah, we're either giving ourselves power or taking away from it.
That's right. I get that.
I get that. I get that.
You said back in 1998, I'm not born here to have a personality.
I'm born here to have a spirit.
And you say that each of us is born with a purpose for being alive.
you call that and actually wrote a book called Sacred Contracts the sacred contract is the reason you were born if it is the reason you were born, why are so many people confused about what the contract says because you know what it's first, a contract's not a literal document that's the first thing we have to understand our sacred contract is a what we could think of as a spiritual document that our soul recognizes okay i love that a spiritual document that our soul recognizes sometimes i have to repeat it to get it you know yeah to push it all the way through yeah absolutely okay you know how
we say things like like I just have to be true to myself.
Yes, yeah. And if someone said, you know, like, what does that mean?
You say, there's something I know I was meant to do.
There's something I know.
I mean, Abraham Lincoln felt that way.
All these great people who've always said there's something I know I was meant to do.
That knowingness is what the soul understands.
I was born, and it was for a purpose.
You have agreements, fundamental agreements that you simply feel you can't put your finger on them because they reveal themselves to you within the context of your life through coincidence, through synchronicity, through obligations you can't get out of, through mad love you can't stop no matter what you do.
That was your sacred contract.
These are all parts of it.
Parts of your sacred contract.
All parts of it. That together form the whole of your contract.
Yeah. You say, many people are confused or completely in the dark about their reason for living.
That's what I was saying.
How can you be so confused about your reason for being here?
You know why? Because they define it by what they want versus what they have. Oh, this is the thing that you say that I love the most. Well, lots of things I love the most, but okay.
Okay. You say that people suffer when they pursue a life or chase a dream that doesn't belong to them.
There. There you go.
There it is. There it is.
There you go. You said it.
You know, I mean, yeah.
Explain what you mean by that, though.
I thought that was so profound.
Absolutely. Well, you know, people get fixated on something and they have to have it.
Especially in this culture of literally American Idol.
Exactly. American Idol.
We call it that. that?
Even that. That's exactly even the name, even the name, the very idea of that, something that, that, that doesn't belong to you, that life doesn't belong to you.
Yes. But in this, but in our society, we're taught to imitate something, to want something that doesn't belong to us.
And that is what causes the suffering.
And yes. Because you, you're pursuing a life that really even wasn't meant for you.
Right. So then the question becomes, how do you know what is the life or the path that is meant for you well you know that is not so difficult as people think yeah first of all it's not it's really really not oh that's the big question though yeah it is if you can answer that this Sunday morning you are good okay so how do you know that's a big question okay how do you know you're on on the right path you were saying that it's not as hard as we may think no it's not it's not at all okay before you answer that does everybody before you answer that does everybody have a path totally that is the best
path for them everyone has a path no one falls from a tree without out yeah just right so there's nobody here on earth whose life doesn't have a purpose or a path correct correct absolutely no one okay if you have life you have purpose okay that's and and you know as an exercise on the aside that's a good tweet if you have life you have purpose tweet tweet that's a good one if you have life you have purpose and that is true of every one of the The seven billion of us.
Totally. It can't be otherwise.
And this is why I absolutely love studying the work of the mystics.
Because this is what's so extraordinary.
The tiniest, tiniest truth is the same at the big level.
If you have life, one drop of life, one atom is as purposeful as our planet.
What is in one is in the whole.
It can't be otherwise.
It cannot. Now, I knew that and I say that, but I just got that in a different way.
It makes me want to weep.
It does. Yeah. The magnitude of that makes me want to weep.
It cannot be otherwise.
Yeah. Isn't that something?
You cannot take this one Adam out and say it is separate from the whole.
You cannot. I cannot take you out and say you are separate from the whole.
Yeah, I know that. There it is.
I know that. I know that.
You just reminded me.
Really? It goes to your soul.
It goes to my soul.
And someone says, well, how do I find my life purpose?
I first say to you, you've never lost your life purpose.
Okay, now we're going to get over that in a minute.
Number two, I have to say to you, have no judgments about your life, no expectations, and give up the need to know what happens tomorrow.
Have no judgments. No expectations.
No expectations. And give up the need to know what happens tomorrow.
And give up the need to know what happens tomorrow.
Tweet, tweet on that too.
Okay. I need you to be fully present, just fully present and to appreciate all that is in your life right now.
Just no matter where it is, no matter where it is, no matter what it is to appreciate fully.
And what a person does, I can't pay my bills.
I lost my job. Okay.
I mean, I'm speaking for people who are watching who are, I, yeah, absolutely.
Still, I would say to these people, I'm in the depths of despair.
You are in the depths of despair and still I need to say to you, You need to say to me.
You had your life focused on something that didn't belong to you and a path that didn't belong to you.
Yes, you did, or you wouldn't be here.
You locked in on something that did not belong to you, someone that didn't belong to you.
You didn't let go of a yesterday that didn't belong to you.
You hung on to a rage that did belong to you and you wouldn't let it go.
You lost track of being here, and that is true.
Or this is what you did.
A track of being here now.
Or something happened to you and you said this, it shouldn't have. And you never got over it.
One of those things happened and you said, it shouldn't have happened to me.
I promise you that happened.
When someone finally said, it's not my life.
I don't know how I lost my purpose.
No, you didn't. You did not lose your purpose.
What you lost was this sense that you thought certain things shouldn't happen to you, and they did.
As if you were excluded from the ordinary, everyday things of life, and you can't get over it.
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So, to live with no judgment...
No expectations. And no expectation?
Yeah, no expectation.
In the sense, think about this.
Expectations are that certain things should not happen to you that happen to ordinary people.
I got it. People hold the idea of being ordinary in absolute contempt.
Please, God, make me anything but not ordinary.
Uh -huh. Right? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And because they do that, they feel like they should be protected from ordinary things.
That's right. So when something happens like an illness, poverty, any kind of catastrophe, I can't believe this happened to me.
Right. So many people spend so much time in the shock.
They never get to move through the other stages.
Right. Because they're stuck in, I can't believe this happened to me.
And who did you think it was going to happen to?
Them. Them. The person across the street.
And it makes them think, I must be on the wrong path.
Yeah. And why is that?
Because something bad happened to you?
Yeah. Something you thought was bad?
What if it was the best thing that ever happened?
One of the stories I love to tell, which is St. Augustine.
It's an old story from St. Augustine.
When this man said to Augustine, I've been praying, praying, praying for what?
Gold. And why do you want gold?
Because I'm poor. And what else?
But what would you do with it?
Augustine says to him, tell me about your life.
He says, well, I have family and I have food and I have friends.
And he said, that sounds like gold to me.
He says, but I don't have real gold.
And Augustine said, well, what would you do with it?
Well, I would hire my friends and they would work for me and then I wouldn't have to work.
And Augustine said, well, I can understand why God hasn't given you gold.
Why? Because it would turn your heart into someone bitter and you would abuse your friends.
and i can see why god has been so fair and just by not giving you the answer to your prayer by not giving you what you think you want he's protected you from the worst of you and given you the best of you but is god always fair and just life on earth will never be fair the way we want it to be it will never be for every one cause there's one effect there's not for every there's millions of causes for a million in millions of effects for every single breath we take you don't recognize that every choice you've ever made in your life is leading to whatever decision you're making and in any given
moment and not only that that for every one choice we make we're actually making 30 because of our emotions are making a choice our mind is making a choice our hearts making choices are our unconscious is me so every moment we're we're probably making 500 million choices.
Okay, okay, I got a really good question.
How do you know when you are on the right path and what dream belongs to you or what husband belongs to you or what job belongs to you?
You know you're on the right path.
Here's your clue. You're not put in a position to betray yourself.
You don't betray yourself anymore.
You're not put in a position where you feel like um you have to negotiate your sense of integrity which is an act of betrayal your heart an act of betrayal you don't feel like you have to compromise who you are it feels right you can fully i got that it's like if you're at a job you know you're really gifted and talented people are not paying you for what you value yourself to be you come into work every day feeling like I'm really not valued I'm not being respected for what I do or my boss is unkind or whatever the situation might be there's an unease that's right with you that's right yeah and so when you
have more respect for yourself put yourself in a position where you can you know feel your sense of value or worth right that turns around that's right and And that's how you know?
You know. You know because you don't feel like this isn't costing me my power.
This isn't costing me my psyche.
This isn't costing me my soul.
Okay, this is really good.
This isn't costing me my sense of, I don't feel confused in some deep level.
I'm not drained. I can be tired after a day's work.
But I'm not psychically drained where I feel like I'm losing life.
And losing myself. And losing myself.
That's what a lot of people say, I'm losing myself.
Why? Because I'm betraying myself in some way.
What is the difference?
Because I have a lot of married friends.
I've interviewed a lot of people over the years who are married.
And everybody talks about how difficult, how, you know, it's work, our relationship is work, it's work, it's work.
What is the difference between betraying yourself and compromising?
Because that's what you have to do to get along.
i'd say that a compromise compromise is when you willingly willingly willingly willingly and out of love say that's all right a little this little that little this little that but in a compromise you don't go away feeling like i've betrayed myself i've betrayed myself i've allowed myself I've I've put poison in my mouth here okay it goes back to exactly what you said earlier that every choice is either going to enhance your spirit or it's going to drain your spirit so if you have been compromised to the point where you feel drained or depleted right then you've betrayed yourself you have I mean and I
got and the numbers of times someone will say to themselves I want to to get out of this circumstance but i'm too afraid to take care of myself so i will lie about how happy i am in this marriage i will i will put up a front i will lie about this but they're betraying everything that's in their heart they're betraying everything when they say to me am i on the right path here's what's true you're on your right path you're just not managing it that well right now you're never on the wrong never on the wrong path you're just not managing it well you're making choices that are harming you uh -huh
and that's why it's hurting right now you're making unwise choices and your intuition is trying to tell making unwise choices including the path that you're on right in the way you're managing the path you run and it's harming you okay and when your life path begins to harm you then we have to sit back and say you've taken a detour.
You know I just had an aha listening to you.
I love it when that happens to me.
I've often thought that and it's because of your use of the word betrayal.
I've often thought having experienced being betrayed by a close member of my family years ago thinking that was the worst that there's no nothing worse than being betrayed and just hearing you talk about it today I think there's nothing worse than betraying yourself that the worst most ultimate betrayal is the betrayal to yourself you're right yeah especially conscious when you have an opportunity to protect yourself yes and you choose otherwise Oh it's hard that is hard that that's brutal you're right and it's brutal because it's you saying to god saying to the forces to universal energy that you're
not worth protecting i think in some cases you're saying you're not worth protecting and the other one is saying you are no different than the people who hurt you big big what's the difference between those people who hurt you and what you are doing to yourself that is big how does grace work works like this um oh this is good we're going to get the answer to that question do you ever have that in an argument with someone where you got so fired up and you thought oh i could just say this yeah and all of a sudden the voice says you sure you want to do that yeah you sure you want to say that yeah
because it's a game changer if you say that that's grace that's grace the grace that comes in and says don't say that because you can never take it back you can never take it back yeah there's some places in an argument everybody Everybody who's married knows this.
The voice that comes in and says, I'm going to prevent you from doing something, really ruin this right now.
That's grace. Here's grace.
Grace is the kind of thing that comes in and says, you'll be all right, and goes away.
Grace is the kind of thing that says, put your hand on that person just for a minute.
And you could feel an energy go through you and an energy calm them down.
Yep. And it doesn't give you an explanation.
No. It just says, when you are flushed with worry and you think, am I going to be all right?
And then you suddenly know, yes.
Yes, you are. Okay.
Now, I tend to think that I live in the space of grace.
I just feel that I'm flooded with it all the time.
I see it all. I literally see it all the time.
And then sometimes exactly what you described also happens.
But I feel that are we not in a constant state of grace?
Grace is a power that comes in and transforms a moment to something better.
Ooh, love that. Okay?
It transforms this moment to something better and it takes us with it.
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So let's talk about prayer.
What does the word prayer mean to you?
Oh, I love prayer so much. Prayer is truly that inner, it's an inner mystical awakening.
To me, prayer is so many things.
Prayer is dialogue with God, okay?
It's not petition. You know, most people know prayer through petition prayer.
Can I have, can I want, you know, can I have more stuff?
Where's my stuff? But that's not really the holiness of prayer.
Prayer is when you withdraw from your five senses.
I closed my eyes and I closed my ears and I withdraw.
And I go into a world where rational thought no longer commands and distracts my intellect.
where rational thought no longer commands me.
Where I go inside and I think about like there's a Catholic saint I'm very enchanted by named Teresa of Avila.
Here's one of her prayers.
Hover over me, God.
Hover. Hover over me, God.
Remind me you're there.
Hover over me, God.
I don't need more than that.
What that does is it just reminds me.
Reminds me of everything.
reminds me be kind to that person.
Be kind. Kindness is much better than anything else.
Be kind. Yeah. You know, my favorite line is actually from Marianne Williamson in her daily prayer.
I think it's called a morning prayer from Illuminata.
And there's a line that says, Please enter where you already abide.
Yeah. Isn't that beautiful?
Yeah. Please enter where you already abide.
Absolutely. So isn't it interesting that I hear that people say to you all the time, can you give me a prayer can you give me a prayer that works that works you got something here that works they want magic yeah they want magic they want to take what they have and they want to get what they want and and and prayer is truly saying you know there's a lot more pain that comes from answered prayers than unanswered ones i got news for you how so it because if people really got what they wanted, they would be in deep grief.
This is why, you know how they say, be careful what you pray for?
Yes. You might get it.
Yes. There is a lot of wisdom to saying, I trust, I just trust. I don't know what is in my own best interest. No judgment.
No expectation. And give up the need to know why things happen as they do.
What is the difference between I'm going to accept Accept and not resist, because I have learned that what you resist only shows up more.
That's right. Yeah.
You're just building the muscle for that thing that you don't want.
What is the difference between knowing how to surrender the thing and knowing when to surrender and doing nothing?
And doing nothing. A person has to try.
A person has to put their energy into their own life and their own effort.
You have to do that.
We have an intuitive voice in us.
We have a, we are born intuitive.
We are so intuitive that it's actually, for most people, the source of their greatest suffering, right?
That inner guidance tells us...
I'm just going to let you, I don't even know what you mean by that.
How is your intuition, your intuitiveness, the cause of your greatest suffering?
I think it would be the opposite.
Oh, no. No, it isn't, Oprah.
breath. It's actually the source of people's greatest suffering.
Why? Because people hear when they've betrayed themselves.
People are very much aware when they are not honest with themselves.
People, it's that voice that says, you shouldn't have said that.
You know, that's not right.
Or you're still with this person and you know, you should have left 20 years ago.
Yeah. This is the voice of your conscience.
It's the voice of your consciousness.
It's It's the voice of your gut instinct.
It's the voice you don't want to hear that never turns off.
Okay. And when you follow this voice and you push, this is the part that says you should push and you should do this.
So it's the part that keeps us moving and turning the wheel of our life.
It's also the part that says you've done as much as you could now.
This is it. You've done everything you can.
So it's the part that will say That's as far as you can go.
It will guide you. It will say this is it.
So what you're saying is exactly what I've always believed and how I've operated.
The being able to accept lives within the range of doing all that you can do.
That's right. And when you have done everything that you can do, you surrender it.
That's it. Let it go.
That's right. To the power and energy that's greater than yourself.
That's it. That's what you do.
That's right. You've got to give it your all.
Give it your all. Give it your all, give it your best, and this inner voice.
And then not be attached to the outcome.
Totally. You got it.
That's it. So did you always know these things?
Were you intuitively attuned to knowing these things?
I was very intuitive from my whole life, yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Your mother saw it in you.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. When I went into the world of medical intuition, and that whole life began then my inner world developed very rapidly very clearly along a certain line and it just has been that ever since okay let's go to the big questions i mean you already answered all the big questions those were the big questions big question okay what is your definition of God law to me God is law I've never heard that before total God to me is mystical law because law is the nature of the universe it is the order The order of things.
The order. It's universal.
It is consistent. It is the nature of life.
And the negotiating principle with mystical laws is prayer.
That's what makes them intimate.
Miracle is when God bends these laws for you in an intimate way.
And that's a miracle.
Well, I've never heard that before.
I'm not sentimental about God I do not personalize God with emotion like love and I don't go there and God's not a he or a her no, it's a complete legal transcendent cosmic force force do you personalize ever and make intimate is God ever intimate with you you know what's strange totally intimate and totally cosmic both simultaneously.
Wow, that's a good guide.
Yeah, it's not bad.
Yeah. I'd market it, yeah.
Have you always considered yourself spiritual or was there a moment, an aha, an epiphany, a revelatory experience?
No. No? I've always, you know, I was so lucky.
I was so ridiculously luck, no, I was blessed.
Blessed. I'll take the word luck out no luck I was blessed totally blessed yeah I never had that from the earliest memory yeah well I grew up in a house where my parents always said prayers literally at night with us a little picture of an angel above my bed and then I always educated you know you were raised Catholic raised care are you still practicing Catholic and you know what But do you know what Oscar Wilde said?
No. I'm not going, I don't go to that place because they have all those gargoyles and all that other stuff.
I don't live like a Catholic, but I'm going to die like one.
And that's what's true.
That's what's true.
What do you think happens when we die?
Well, I think our bodies obviously die.
All life, I observe the law.
All life dies. All physical life dies.
I don't think he's transformed into I don't think we're afraid of death I actually think one of the functions of a grace is that we are not afraid of death when it actually shows itself yeah yeah I think what we're afraid of is how we are going to die we're not afraid of death because if you Interesting.
We've never been afraid of death.
We're terrified of dying.
The process. Who isn't?
I don't care to disintegrate and go through some kind of horrible death.
Neither do you. Neither does your family members.
We don't want to say goodbye to each other.
We don't want to look at each other in the face and say, Fare thee well.
I'll meet you on the other side.
Right. We don't want to say that.
That's heartbreaking.
heartbreaking. But we're not afraid to be dead, because it's not possible.
I assure you that. I promise you that.
I promise you. Yeah, Whitten said that, too, in Leaves of Grass, that we complain about it, complain about it, but it may be the most exciting thing that's ever happened, actually.
Right. On the other side.
All right. Finish this sentence.
All right. Right. I believe in God.
Love is beautiful, healing, perfect.
The person I most want to be proud of me is, I think, my mom.
She's been my greatest sidekick.
And I love her dearly.
I am ready to forgive.
That would be myself, from some not so hot choices I've made in this life.
And you're ready to forgive?
I work on it. I'll get there.
Yeah. As a spiritual leader and teacher, one would think that you never have problems and that you're always in the flow and that you're connected to the law.
Do you have good days and bad days too?
Like regular folks?
Oh, come on. Oh, come on?
Oh come on. I take my calendar.
Bad day, good day, bad day, good day.
Absolutely. Are you kidding?
Is there something you're still striving for or you were able to operate in that flow of grace most of the time?
I get back to center a lot easier.
I absolutely do. I hold myself accountable, totally accountable.
If I slip up, I do not take it out on, I don't say it's someone else's fault.
I hold myself, my own feet to the fire.
I absolutely do. I'm real good about that.
You know that? And I'm really good about also owning that I've become a pretty good person.
You know, I think of myself now as like fine wine.
I've reached that point in my life where I feel like it's time for me to treat myself better.
So you're going to actually practice what you teach. Totally.
And give back to yourself more in this next decade.
I am. Yeah. That's great.
You got it. Yeah. And I'm going to take my lesson from you.
So I'm taking my cues from you.
All right. Okay. You got it.
Show me the way. All right.
All right. You promised.
You promised. You got it.
That was great. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.
Thank you for listening.
