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I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time.
Taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Hello. Hi kiddo. Hey kiddo.
How you doing? Good to see you again.
Good to see you again.
Thanks for joining.
Oh, I have those. You do?
Yeah. I have them in red, navy and white.
Oh my God. You know what would be a wonderful thing to see?
Is your closet. Would it thrill me?
It would. It would absolutely thrill you.
I bet it would just. yeah I bet it would give me like that all overs.
It's kind of crazy right now I just finished production so there's stuff all over the place you know what happened I have a you know I live here in LA and in New York but I have a condo here that is specifically for my clothes.
Really? Yeah. It's a whole condo.
So I was going to ask you how many square feet is your closet.
Oh I have no idea it's well.
It's an apartment. Yeah it's an apartment but I have stuff at the house too I have big these big plastic crates with all the gowns in them and then in New York I have a bunch of stuff.
So do you keep the gowns?
Yeah, it depends on what is being is usable now, what's already been used.
Do you know what you've used for everything?
Yeah. Is it all archived and all that?
Yeah yeah. Of course.
And actually some of this stuff you know there's a statute of limitations is to run out on some of the gowns that I wore on the VH1 show, I had a talk show yeah Yeah.
20 years ago. So some of those, which I still have, I can wear them again.
Those are now considered vintage.
Well, but no, but, you know, the kids who watch our show, they've never seen those before.
Right, right, right.
Because before social media, so I can wear them again.
You know, after Jean -Francois Furet used to be my favorite designer.
I loved, loved him.
Loved, loved. The white crisp shirt and that, that pant.
The pant? Oh, yeah.
So gorgeous. So architectural, he was.
Yeah, yeah. And after he passed, I mean I still have to this day.
So I still have every single thing he ever designed for me personally and every single thing I bought off the rack.
I never have gotten rid of because nobody to this day has made a better white shirt.
Wouldn't you agree?
You're absolutely right.
But what do you do with your old stuff?
I don't. I just keep everything.
I don't. Well, I have a whole place in Chicago where it's like archived and packaged and you could pull it up if I needed it.
but I was never going to do that, but I certainly have it because some things I just...
Yeah. That was the hardest thing for me in the move from Chicago to here was the clothes.
Right. I could get rid of furniture, antiques, art, da -da -da -da -da.
Yeah. Apartment, forget about it, never have to see it again.
Yeah. But holding on to a Franco for Ray skirt, honey, got to have it.
I would see you in white turtlenecks, and I always wondered how were you able to get a white turtleneck over a face that's been made up.
Well, so you put the little netting thing over and then pull it over.
Uh -huh. You put the little netting, you know, the black girl bonnet over your head, over your face.
Durex, face rag. Face rag.
Yeah. Face rag. So I have a funny story to tell you.
I told, when I was telling Gail I was gonna be interviewing you for podcast for SuperSoul, she was on a plane with you, do you remember, that she was, you all were on an early morning flight someplace, and she said she was looking like like slumpa and dinka, like trying to hide.
Then she saw you get on the plane and she went, oh no, I'm gonna have to pass him to get out.
And so she said, she came up to you, first of all, to marvel at how great you looked at seven in the morning.
She goes, I don't know how you're doing this at seven in the morning and to apologize for looking the way she did.
Do you remember this moment?
I do, I do. You know what, the easiest thing for a man to do is to throw on a suit and a jacket and a shirt.
You're done. You're done.
Yeah. And it's the easiest thing in the world to do, you know.
And you look great.
I always tell the kids I'm at work with, I say, if you wore a suit, you'd make more money.
Really? Mm -hmm. And why do you say that?
Because it changes the way you move around and navigate this earth and how people interpret who you are.
Exactly. Stedman was leaving home last night and was going back to Chicago and he said i'm gonna put my uh suit pant on my suit jacket and i go why are you doing that why were you just he goes people treat you different they do they treat you different when you're wearing a suit jacket he goes they just treat you different and it's just funny you know you're on the planet long enough and you understand certain i wouldn't call them tricks but certain ways to navigate that help that you just understand how things work you know how things work you think and and you go you know i'm gonna i'm gonna work
it can you believe the level you know it's like back in the 90s i don't remember when when when supermodel when was that out 90 92 92 okay so you had that whole era and now something happened in the zeitgeist that made your way of being and branding and identifying made it a cultural phenom at this particular time don't you think that you've become this symbol that inspires not just young people, but so many people in the midst of their own questioning, their own pain, their own identity, right?
And so you must hear from so many, is that correct?
I hear from a lot of young people, from everyone, everyone.
It's not just gay or drag queen or any of that.
it's just it's people who who not only dance to the beat of a different drummer but who are super sensitive and sometimes too sensitive for this world yeah because their hearts are so are so open and they've been beaten down so much that they they see in what we're doing a place where it could be celebrated is there one particular story or person that stands out to you no no You know, the interesting thing is the stories are all the same.
They're really all the same.
And, you know, they're the story of the hero with a thousand faces who isn't recognized by the world, and they're not recognizing themselves.
Well, you know, it is interesting.
I knew that you were my kind of human when I first heard you say that we're all born naked and the rest is just drag.
Yeah. Because I have a different way of saying that, but I mean the same thing, that we're all in these kind of bodysuits, and you come up with these definitions and these ideas about who you really are, but we all are, my favorite quote, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who said we are spiritual beings having a human experience.
Yeah. That's exactly right.
Yeah. And I got that as a kid.
you know I I was a young kid and I thought is everybody getting that this is all kind of an illusion and I couldn't get anybody to corroborate with me until do you remember the first time you thought that though I remember when my parents were in the living room going crazy you know beating each other up I knew this is this can't be right but you know when I was about 11 years old on PBS yeah I found my tribe in Monty Python's Flying Circus I thought okay they get it okay they're irreverent they're not taking anything seriously and they're having fun that's what this is all about so that's when I
I got it very early my sisters also you know we laugh that was our sanctuary was a place where we could you know find some peace so what What would you say defines you?
Today, this moment?
You know, I don't do that.
The moon, the stars, the sun. You know, I'm everything and nothing at all.
Oh, I love that. So you don't put yourself in any kind of box, any kind of label, any kind of...
None of them felt comfortable.
None of them felt that that was the right fit.
Because why do you have to define yourself?
You don't have to. You don't have to.
No, there's no need.
That's why, you know, people ask me, do I believe in God?
And I say, sure, sure.
What is it? I don't know what it is.
There's something there.
I don't know what it is.
I don't need to know what it is.
I don't really care what it is.
I know it's there, though.
Do you feel connected to it?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah. There are moments when it's really strong, and there are moments in my life when it's been like, okay, what's going on here?
You know, when you feel out of sync?
Yeah. But then, you know, I was driving to this...
I had this pitch meeting, and I was driving down the street, and my car...
It was my trainer, who I'd seen earlier today, was just walking up the street.
I was like, of all the people, I could...
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But there he is. And it's those coincidences that remind me that.
Those coincidences that are not.
That are not. Yeah.
Just to remind me that you're absolutely where you're supposed to be right now.
When did you first know that going drag was a way of expressing and a way of being that would be meaningful to you and to other people?
You know, I am an opportunist and a show -off.
And I knew that show business would be my path.
I didn't know how it would be, how it would work.
But I didn't define myself, so I keep an open mind.
Then I was in punk rock bands in Atlanta, Georgia.
And drag sort of, sort of, happened to us.
It was never about sexual identity or anything.
It was really, it was punk rock.
And so when I did it for the band, the reaction I got from people was whoa.
Whoa. And this was not, like, glamour drag.
This was what we called...
This was not Sacha and Chante?
No, no, no, no, no. I knew.
This was what we called gender F word drag, which was combat boots and smeared lipstick and ah, ah, ah.
It was a social comment.
This is the Reagan 80s and we're just making a social comment.
But I knew that I had power in it because of the reaction I got from people.
The same way I can adjust how people interpret me in a suit, I can adjust how people interpret me in drag because suits drag too.
too. But, that's when I understood, hmm, I could do something with this.
Wow. But for you, going drag really applies to all of us.
It's whatever we put on after we get out of the shower, right?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
That's exactly right.
And why not make it work for you?
Why not make, if you have the power to control how people see you, and interpret you, why not use it?
How do you flow between one and the other?
this is very easy are you getting paid or are you not getting paid well now yeah that makes sense yeah no no no I and I've told people before if I never did drag again I'd be okay fine so she dragged okay that drag so she is not an alter ego or she is no nothing no it's just getting paid not getting back with the identity I don't I I'm everything and nothing at all.
Everything and nothing at all.
Okay tell me what getting that Emmy meant to you.
Well, first of all, I've always in this business I've always worked outside.
I've been a fringe artist. I've always been outside the system so when the system comes and says, hey, we're digging what you're doing that was great because of all the the people I work with.
For me as a solo contract player, what the system thought of me was not really that important to me.
It couldn't be, because having worked outside the system for so long, if that was part of what I needed, I wouldn't have survived, because they weren't giving it to me.
So that wasn't part of what I was planning on.
But because I work with with a lot of people who worked very hard within the system.
It meant a lot. Yeah.
But what you started out to get, I'd read this, tell me if it's true, you'd started out just to get people to say, RuPaul, I love you.
Uh -huh. Yeah. You were looking for I love you.
Yeah. And the Emmy is in many ways a big, oh, I love you.
It is. Definitely. But, you know, I had passed the RuPaul I love you bit after many years of therapy and many years in this business.
Why was that your particular goal?
Well, that was the goal of a very young person who needed that and who didn't know exactly what it was that I really needed.
Because eventually you learned that all the I love you's in the world don't fill whatever it is you're trying to fill.
Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly right, and that's where all rows lead to that place.
Yes, yes. You know, and so when I made that declaration, I was still in a place where I didn't know yet.
Yeah. So you had to figure it out how?
How? Well, you figure it out by hitting your head up against the wall really, really hard and you're thinking when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, you really do find a solution.
I realized early on I was a seeker.
So I continued to seek and I knew that the only place I could find that would fill that God -sized hole was with me.
And I'd read, too, that your quest for fame was to fill that emptiness inside, that void.
And the void came from...
The void came from knowing that there was something more.
You know, I talked earlier about wanting to find my tribe, wanting to find other people who I could say, did you see that?
Did you feel that? Most people are really not there.
Disconnected. So disconnected.
I say the people are the living, walking dead every day.
I was at a stoplight yesterday, and a woman was walking down the street, not looking at a phone.
She was just contemplating her life.
And I wanted to roll the window, and I said, hey, lady, I love you.
You're here. Because you don't see that anymore.
Everybody's doing this.
On their phone. It's crazy.
So I was looking for a connection, and that's what that was about.
Yeah. You mentioned therapy.
Years of therapy to get there?
Years of therapy to get there.
But I'm from San Diego, and I grew up in the 70s with the whole self -help thing.
So I read, even as a teenager, I was reading all those self -help books, I'm Okay, You're Okay, all of them.
And I think it's a California thing, too.
But I was always a seeker.
Well, you do talk and write a lot about your spiritual awareness.
Where did that come from?
Did you have a moment of awakening?
You know my mother was very religious but she was not into organized religion.
She didn't go to church. She could quote the Bible, but you know, it's like being a fish and wondering if water really exists.
I didn't have to become, having a spiritual awakening.
I am spiritual. You're a spiritual being.
I'm a spiritual being, it just, I can feel it.
Having a human experience.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you knew that as a kid?
Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised when people don't know it.
I'm surprised when they're so disconnected that they don't realize, oh, there's really just one of us here.
Oh, I'm not surprised because the level, I think that what I've concluded is that this whole human plane is dense.
There's a thickness.
There's a thickness to the air that we breathe.
There's a density that people can't seem to break through.
mm -hmm but it's amazing that often on your show you seem to be giving you know spiritual advice really yeah yeah these kids you know we set up a situation on this competition reality show where we challenge them to go beyond their own limited perception of themselves and these are all that is the greatest spiritual teaching there is absolutely yeah and these are all the things in my career I've been able to do they look up to me because I've been doing this for a long time so we put them through these challenges and it really the real challenge is for them to be willing to die and become reborn
through these challenges a lot of times one kid we had a comedy challenge and she's like well I'm not funny I'm not a comedy queen listen what you do with your makeup what you do when you're lip syncing apply that to comedy you've got it.
She got out there. Funny, funny, funny.
And you know, that is true for everyone.
Like I said, there's only one of us here on this planet.
We are so connected.
We're just one thing.
So if you can apply what you know really well in another area to this area which you think you may not know, you've got something.
Yeah. I think I heard you on some show talking about how we're ultimately expressing as God so that's the ultimately that we're like God in drag.
Absolutely! Yeah, absolutely.
It's not really rocket science.
But people are ready to hear that.
And listen, I didn't come up with any of this stuff.
This is what I've learned to navigate and maintain an equilibrium on this dense playing you know.
I saw that kid the Hollywood medium.
You know that we live in a lower frequency.
The spirit world is a hybrid and the mediums can you know go in between.
And it's just an interesting concept to...
you were talking about earlier that density.
It's an interesting concept to sort of break some of that up and to be a force on this planet to open that up and And I think we try to do that with our show.
But I see you doing it in your life, too, because you feel like such a joyful human being.
Joy is a high frequency.
You talk a lot about being positive, and you have spoken about how just being negative is actually lazy.
And positivity, as you know, too, is a higher frequency.
It's reaching for the higher ground all the time.
Are you always in the joy space?
No. No, I'm night and day, black and white.
Do you have to work at it?
Absolutely, every day.
I meditate, I stretch, I go to the gym.
You know, when I'm saying those things out loud on the show, I'm actually saying them to myself.
You know, whenever I'm telling anyone, hey, kiddo, there's a scene in Witches of Eastwick where one of the characters falls off the banister and they say to her, Jane, laugh, laugh, Jane, laugh.
and she , she levitates off the ground.
So I always try to remind people to, she doesn't hit the ground, she falls and she doesn't hit the ground, she levitates because of the laughter which I think is the most powerful spell you can cast. I know one of the things that your show does is champions freedom of, not just expression, freedom of lifestyle, just plain old freedom.
What do you think is a new way that people on both sides of our current divide in our country, can understand each other and see themselves in each other?
How can we use what you're doing to help us see each other differently.
Because I think that's one of the things that you've done with the show.
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think, I think the first, you start with realizing that our biggest misconception is thinking that we're separate from one another.
I know. You know? I know you keep saying that we're all just one.
I know what you mean by that, but I don't think people understand that at all.
And I think, you know, in that last breath, I've talked to people who had near death.
I think in that last breath, that's going to be the biggest damn surprise to everybody that all this time you were fighting against, pushing against and you're pushing against your own self.
You didn't even see yourself as one.
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So it's unfortunate with being the last breath, but child, you better get it now.
Child. You better get it now, girl.
Okay, so what do you think we could do?
How do we begin to see each other as one?
You know, it starts here.
It starts here. you know, when I was in 10th grade my 10th grade teacher told me, he said, Rupaul, don't take life too effing seriously.
And I didn't get it then, I got it, I got it later.
I did not get it then.
But I learned to first laugh, don't take everything so seriously.
And then, be kind, be kind, because there's only one of us here, when you are dissing someone else you're actually dissing yourself and you've got to realize that that has an effect on you everything that you put of course it comes back to you i mean this is well that's my law that's my religion that's what you're putting out is coming back that's what it is by that and you know you know it seems so simplistic but it's listen a child cannot children do understand it they do yeah actually more so than people who are all sort of uh stuck in their own ways of being And, you know, I didn't come up
with any of this stuff.
This is not, this is what I've learned to maintain on this planet.
But I think people hear it differently coming from you.
I think you saying it reaches an audience that might not hear it from someone else, another kind of philosopher.
They're not reading, you know, Emerson or, you know, some of the others.
Why do you think drag is resonating so deeply with people, particularly at this moment in our culture?
You know, there's a new breed of young people out there.
There's a new voice.
We do a convention called Drag Con here in L .A.
and in New York. And the kids who come, they don't identify as gay or straight.
They are smart and they are looking for a voice, almost a new belief system that transcends the 20th century, that is completely of the 21st century.
So I think that they found our show with all these different platforms that you can watch television on your phone and all these places.
YouTube. YouTube. Around the world, they watch our show on Netflix and stuff like that.
Here, obviously, it's on terrestrial television.
But I think our show speaks to that forward -thinking voice, that emerging voice of young people who are looking for something.
thing. It's almost like a religion or a way of life.
They see the kids on our show overcome not only their personal adversities but the challenges with the other kids on the show and they realize I can do that or they identify with the other kids on the show.
A lot of times I'll be, I go walk around the workroom and I ask the kids what they're doing in this this challenge and I will break it down as you know what listen I do the same thing what you're doing like one kid was anxious she was anxious you know I said you're addicted to the anxiousness you've got this this challenge you got this you are addicted to being anxious now just you know ruminate on that for a minute she came back later and said that's it You're addicted to the anxiousness.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I used to be late to places and I realize that I was addicted to the rush of going, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Oh boy. Oh shoot. Oh shoot.
Yeah. When I let go of that addiction, I'll arrive ten minutes early just to let bitches know who they're working with.
I will, I'll arrive sometimes fifteen minutes earlier.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Because Anna Wintour, I think that she does that.
She'll call a meeting for noon and she'll be there at 11 .45.
Oh, my gosh. Everybody's like, thrown.
I love that. Thrown, honey.
Who are you when you are at your best?
Oh, a sweetie pie, kind, forgiving.
I don't know, you drive around here, traffic in L .A.
It brings out the worst in me.
And when I can drive down Santa Monica Boulevard and I'm loving, that's when I'm at my best. Really?
Yeah, because, you know, I'm paying attention to everything.
I'm looking at what people are doing.
I'm looking at the woman crossing.
I'm just that, I'm just that person.
You're that person.
I'm aware. And so when I see everyone, you know, they're braiding each other's hair and doing their taxes behind the wheel, careening down the street and they're, you know, barbecuing.
Can you believe the people who are on their phones texting?
Still. It's beyond.
On the freeway. I can't get over.
That's scary. What makes you think that you can do that?
Yeah, that's an interesting question, because there's a part of the brain that we need to address.
And talk about this new emerging voice in the 21st century.
We have to speak to that other side of the brain, the brain that says, you know, you still see people smoking cigarettes today and you go, you know, we've been through this, right?
You know what this is.
But what part of the brain says, Yeah, go on, do it.
We have to address that.
and we don't address that in our culture and i think that is the next level of of next of our evolution is understanding who we really are and being able to see you know i meant early mentioned i thought i said i'm night i'm day i'm black i'm white i'm male female seeing both sides of yourself or all the sides of yourself i'm sure there may be more shades is the next level what What allowed you to actually move past anybody's definition, expectation, past everybody's idea of who you should be and carve out a new path?
I think it's first of all, I think it's who I am.
But also my mother was very, very rebellious.
She was the kind of person who said, you know, unless they're paying your bills, you pay them these, no mind.
mind and I believe that and I'm almost I was a sweet sensitive kid so people would hurt my feelings but you live on the planet long enough you realize baby that had nothing to do with you right that was that's not yours it's not even yours that's what Maya Angelou used to say to me baby you're not even in it you're not even in it when they wrote the story when they started the rumor you weren't even about you yeah no and that's that's that takes some time to get to It takes some time.
You have to be here long enough to be able to get that.
But if you're smart, you see the patterns.
I love watching Murder, She Wrote.
Yes, I heard that you go to sleep watching Angela Ansari.
Yes, she's brilliant.
But watching her, this character, deduce what really went down, she puts all the pieces together.
And in life, you have to do that, especially if you want to protect your heart.
If you want to navigate this life, you have to be able to see, like we talk about the different levels of consciousness, the lower frequency, high frequency.
You've got to be able to move freely in all those frequencies.
Do you think we're becoming a more accepting society, even where we are in this culture?
I think some are. I have a lot of hope with young people.
I'm surprised people my age, older than me, who have reverted back to an old way of thinking of like thinking that we could go back to, you know, Jim Crow or, you know, some of the things that people, that come out of people's mouth.
I think, what is wrong with you?
Weren't you there when we did that already?
You've already done that.
Yeah, why? We've already shown that does not work.
Yeah, it doesn't work.
And not only does it not work, it's what's really underneath the hood of that is your own self -loathing.
Yeah. That's what that's about.
Well it's just that dense thing I was talking about that's low frequency people.
That's a really low vibration really low.
But what have you learned about how we define ourselves through watching and performing drag?
Yeah, I bet you've learned a lot.
I have learned a lot.
You know at first it just reiterates my initial statement which is you're born naked and the rest is drag.
drag. What it teaches people is that none of these, all things are temporary.
Everything is temporary, just clothes, paint, powder, you know, even this body is temporary.
I'll take care of it as much as I can but that's what it teaches.
You know what's funny is to see a straight man in drag.
On our show we have this thing where we have the girls put guys in drag and what emerges is really phenomenal you know it's like watching you know you never know if somebody's gonna be a fun drunk or a mean drunk yeah or famous the same way you know if someone's gonna be and when they get famous are they gonna be a mean famous or a fun famous drag is the same way really it doesn't hide who you are drag actually reveals.
I was gonna say that because that's exactly what fame does as you know.
Yes. Yeah. If you're a jerk before you get famous, you just are a bigger, more intensified under -a -microscope jerk.
And if you're kind, that's what also shows up.
Do you get to, you know, drag is all about reinvention, do you get to still experience different aspects of yourself when you dress up?
When I'm doing in drag?
Yeah. Yeah. I do with the kids on our show, I get to re -experience some of the frustrations that I had through them trying to make it through the challenges.
It reminds me, it awakens what it was like for me.
And then I get to go ahead and tell them, hey, kiddo, this is what you're really going through.
So I get to experience it through them, yeah.
But it doesn't reveal new facets of of your personality?
Not really. No matter what gown you're wearing?
No makeup, no gown, no dress, no nothing.
No nothing that you could do that would reveal another part of yourself.
I don't think so. I've been doing it for so long.
No. No. You know, I think every day I'm on this planet.
You know, it's not like time is real.
It's like everything is happening at once right now.
It doesn't feel like, so whatever I may have been frustrated with 20 years ago is still there.
And it will go, hey, Ru.
Hey. You know. And I'll go, thanks for sharing.
But we're not doing that right now.
Yeah. You know. What do you think drag can teach regular folks about self -expression?
Well, I think it could teach everyday people about colors and tones and different levels of consciousness of how you see yourself.
I think it's important, I know for me too, when I meditate I go outside of my body and I see, oh look, that's me.
Right there. Actually even when I do drag I'll see a picture and I'll go, is that me?
that's crazy oh my gosh you're still really yes yes to this day and I'll go that's amazing and what's even funny is when I um when I have the makeup put on uh I'll see it and I'll go oh great but when I see it on TV I go oh I see what you did I see how you matched that with that you know it's another level of oh uh you know so I think for everyday people drag can help you understand many different levels of what you are and what this body is and how amazing it is to have a human body I do think that too and what you could do I do still marvel at it I still marvel at how amazing it is to have a human body
it is amazing yeah and it's so fragile it's so fragile and that we're still here yeah you know you hear things all the time.
I heard something today.
I had surgery. Da -da -da -da.
And you think, oh my goodness.
I want to take care of it.
I want to celebrate it.
I want to dance. There's no place to dance.
You know what I want to do?
I want to open a daytime disco in Palm Springs, one of those old huge banks.
It would be open from 11 o 'clock in the morning to say 9, I can't stay up past 9.
That's surprising. Yeah.
I used to be the opposite.
So you could come during the day at lunchtime, dance for 30 minutes to cool in the gang.
Um, Earth Wind and Fire, Stevie Wonder, I wanna dance!
I wanna, I mean you see kids and they're like three and four and they're just bouncing off the wall, and I'm like, look what I can do!
yeah yeah yeah I want to relive that I want to do that and I want I'd like to I think you're right there's not enough dancing in the world.
Not enough dancing.
what's the key to perfectly executed drag it's a sense of humor it's as simple as that you don't you know like I said there are different styles different genres I started with gender f -word drag and then I I did my soul train dancer look which yeah loved you know and then I landed on glamazon because that's what pays the mortgage but I think the most fun drag is is the Soul Train dancer drag words you know it's hi yes I don't get to do that very well I don't get to do that at all anymore once I got famous it became you know it's a job Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. When you talk, you're an optimist, but has it been an uphill battle to stay optimistic these days?
It is, it is an up, I'm tired.
I'm exhausted by it and I'm doing my part, but it is exhausting being an optimist because you think, you think that people, I thought we were further along as humans on this planet.
And you think, wait, what did I just imagine that, that we were moving forward, I thought that we were further along, so it is exhausting and sometimes...
You know the mistake that we all made, you, me, and people like that, the mistake that we made, because the truth is we are, I believe in a regressive...
we've taken step, steps backwards, but the mistake is that we always thought that civilization evolving, moved in a straight line, it It does not, it does not.
You move forward, then you take a couple steps backwards.
Then you're in the Dark Ages, then you come out, then you go, yes, that's the problem.
We had a greater expectation for what we as humans could be and do.
And I blame John Kennedy for that.
I blame John F. Kennedy for that.
Yes, how? Well, I have two older sisters who are seven years older than me.
They were my world, they were my goddesses.
And they told me when I was a kid, they said, Ru, the people in charge now are making it so that one day everyone on this planet will have eight pairs of shoes.
Your sister told you that.
And I love that. I thought, wow, that's where we're going.
We're moving forward. We're going into the world where everybody's going to have eight.
Eight pairs of shoes.
Yeah. And I believed them.
and I thought okay I'm gonna be a part of this how can I how can I help why what's going on you know yes do you think young people will bring about a change I know that you talk about most mobilizing young people to make social change what does that mobilization look like we show them through example I don't have children of my own but I do know that children learn they learn from their parents in ways the parents don't know about it's just watching them watching them how they sip water or what they do with with their garbage or how they react to nudity or what someone says it's all those things
so it's an inside job and we all have to pitch in on how we behave. And I think that's the key.
We have to show them.
We have to show them.
What do you think the next generation needs to do to make real change, actually?
I think it's all the things we talked about.
I think it's first, be kind to yourself and remember.
Because we all know this.
This is not something they have to learn.
It's something they have to remember.
We all know. Because that's what an aha moment is.
is the remembering of what you already knew, yeah.
Yeah. So we have to remind them who they really are.
And they are God having a human, spiritual experience on this planet, being human.
And even having said that, you realize too that even the horrible things, the unspeakable things are a part of it, if you take out judgment.
Even the horrible things are a part of it.
I don't want to be a part of those things.
I want to be on the side of the lightness.
But you know what I'm saying by that.
So we have to show them.
We have to remind them.
What is the advice you give to, I know you're such a big mentor for LGBTQ kids.
So what is the advice you find yourself giving to them the most often?
Know thyself. Know thyself.
Okay. Yeah. Well, that's for everybody.
Yes, for everybody.
It's not rocket science, Oprah.
You know? it's so simple it's so simple the fundamental rules of life the life lessons that will help you navigate are very simple we learn them in kindergarten be nice to other people be nice to yourself know thyself even that me understanding about my addiction to being late like Jessica Fletcher on Murder's Road deducing okay what are the elements here you know cuz they don't want to be late there it is it's right there take that out everything's changed yeah I did this with the friend once I said you're addicted to chaos you you you you you you love it and you love drawing other people into
it and I don't know and once you figure that out you can begin to move forward oh yeah yeah I'm addicted did you change yeah it actually did when it took a while but yeah because for a a lot of people, they're not like you, like instant, oh, that's what it is.
I'm addicted to being late.
And you can change that.
It takes a long time for the realization.
I want to know, what's the lesson that took you the longest to learn?
That's a good question.
You know, I grew up with my father, who a psychic once told me that he and I had shared past lives together.
And that when I appeared in this life, I was like, hey, buddy, we're here, here we are again.
Yeah. We're going to rule the school.
And he could not see me.
He was shut down, shut down, and I said, oh, okay, well, you want joy, I can give you some joy.
Oh, you want to laugh?
I got it. You want to dance?
Yeah. You know, this whole thing.
And I, for years, was attracted to people who were shut down like that, and I felt my job was to, okay, what do you need?
I got it for you, I got it.
Let me remind you who you are.
The hardest lesson for me to learn in this life has been to let them be there, my father he couldn't he couldn't have seen me because it would have forced him if he saw me would have forced him to get in touch with his feelings which were really heavy and really painful and I understand that now back then it really hurt hurt my heart but that was the hardest lesson I've learned is that let those people who are shut down let them be you know like you'd go to a puppy that's come from an abusive place and you go to pet it and it goes hmm hmm and you go what can I do well you can pray that's about it
that's about it you know then let him go and figure it out it sounds harsh what has been the most difficult choice you had to make to fulfill your destiny?
Well my destiny, I don't think my destiny's really happened yet, but the choice...
It's in process. It's in process.
The most difficult choice I have to make is every day, which is choosing to be engaged, choosing to not succumb to the darkness, because I have it there it's always there in my peripheral vision and choosing to stay in kindness and in love that's the biggest uh decision i have to make every day you know but you asked me what have i had to what sacrifice i had to make to get where i am today um yeah what's been the most difficult choice you had to make to fulfill where you are today?
I think it has to do with spending so much time alone you know I am married and my husband has a huge it's a 60 ,000 acre ranch so and he and I do very well on our own you know he spends a lot but I'm seeing I'll see him later today but But we spend a lot of time alone.
And I think to do this work, to do something really amazing, you have to spend a lot of time alone.
I think that's the biggest sacrifice.
I don't know how much of a sacrifice it is because I really don't like being around a lot of people.
You know, they get me nervous.
I can fake it for a good long time of, hi, how you doing?
Great. Heard any good jokes lately?
you know but I'm really I'm really introvert masquerading as an extrovert that is a big surprise mmm really though to a lot of people but not to me yeah cuz so am I cuz oh am i I mean I have I think there's a name for it I mean I'm an introvert with extrovert qualities you know where I can be on but I am really most content happiest most at myself alone or in front of it large audience yeah the binger of people though it does wear my battery down I can do it I could do it for a good long time what do you think your true purpose on earth is I think it's first starts with me for me to experience
this life and to enjoy it and I think if I enjoy it and I could possibly share with other other people how to do it how to have fun that's one of the best answers I've heard you know because so many people think and I've done so many you know conversations seminars were of your like what's my purpose what my purpose your purpose is is to be and to experience life just as you're saying and then if out of that experience you choose to do something else that's also okay but but you're here on this planet because you're supposed to experience this planet in its fullness.
Agree? And that the truest expression of yourself is what we're all actually seeking.
Absolutely. Yeah. Because, again, there's only one of us here.
Only one of us here.
When you look in the mirror, what do you see?
Freckles. You know, it's interesting.
I've spent so much time putting on makeup and using my body to for a living and so you know initially I look at it as part of my work but then when I look at the mirror with my heart I still see that little boy who loved to dance you know that there's that song that Stevie Wonder from hotter than July I think it's called Like I Do or something where it it talks about a little baby brother used to dance and it ends with him breaking a lamp.
He says, oh, you know, broke Mama's lamp.
You know that song?
Yes, yes, yes. I'm that kid, I love to dance, I love to laugh.
Those are my two favorite things to do on this planet.
I laugh a lot, don't get to dance as much as I want to.
And when you look in that mirror, you see a person who fills that, fill in the blank.
I see a person who is a seeker.
I see a person who is looking for some joy, some laughs.
I like the lighter things of life.
I like the music and the colors and the smells.
I like love. I like those things.
And I like to stay away from the dark stuff.
It's there, but I tend to go to the light side.
Would you say you were at one of the best places for yourself?
Have you reached the best place for yourself?
I think so right now.
Right now? It's a really good time.
It's the best of times, it's the worst of times.
Yeah. It's a good place.
It's a good place. And again, I'm paying attention to everything, but I am focusing on the joy.
Thank you. Thank you.
I loved it. Good. Thank you.
Thank you. That was perfect.
Good, good. Perfect.
I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.
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