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I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time.
Taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Today on Super Soul Conversations, Sheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook, the social media leader with nearly two billion users around the world.
Four years ago, it was Sheryl who coined the phrase, lean in, when she called on working women to step up in their careers and shatter glass ceilings at the workplace.
Now, Sheryl is on a new mission that's landed her on the cover of Time magazine once again.
After suffering the loss of her beloved husband, Dave Goldberg, she's helping others find their way through grief.
Sheryl Sandberg says her husband, Dave Goldberg, was her best friend.
The pair married in 2004 and later had two children.
Two years ago, Dave died, suddenly, while on vacation in Mexico.
In her new book, Option B, co -authored with psychologist Adam Grant, Sheryl shares her moving account of the sudden death of her husband and all the life -affirming lessons she learned on her journey back to gratitude, resilience and joy.
So I won't ask you, how are you doing?
Because from reading Option B, I learned that that's almost, that is an inappropriate question to ask somebody who's gone through a horrendous experience.
So I will ask you, how are you doing today?
Almost. It's now two years since Dave died.
Yeah. I'm different.
You're different. I'm a different person.
I'm sadder. I have this grief and sadness in my life, and it's like right here I can touch it, and it kind of, it comes up on the obvious days, the mother's days, the father's days, our anniversary.
I am also more grateful, more present, more alive.
I mean, I think being here with you would have been a special day at any point in my life.
But even on moments like this, I am more aware of just how precious it all is and how short.
So it woke you up in a way that you hadn't been awakened before.
Absolutely. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's exactly right.
It woke me up. In the beginning of your beautiful book describing what the process of grief is really like, you talk about it sometimes showing up like a wave.
Do the waves still come?
They do. I mean, I had read about grief.
Everyone's read about grief, but experiencing it is a different thing.
It felt like, for me, it was a void.
It was closing in on me so I couldn't breathe.
My brother -in -law talked about it as a boot covering his chest.
My friend Kim, who lost her brother, he died by suicide, thought of it as a fog covering her everywhere she went.
And in those early days and weeks and months, I thought it would never get better.
Ever. It just didn't feel like it would ever get better.
I would ever catch my breath again.
And part of the reason I wrote this book is people told me it would get better, but I did not believe them.
And it has. I sit here today, still with more sadness but with a lot more gratitude and more cognizant of joy.
I am awake and woken up.
And I want people to know that the fog does lift.
It comes back. But like, the early time when it will not lift, even for a second, that changes.
And so often when somebody has gone through a great loss, we just don't know what to say.
And so what happens is you end up saying nothing.
You end up doing nothing because you don't want to remind the person of their grief.
And yet you say something so...it really struck me.
Like, there's nothing anybody can say that's going to cause you to remember that you've lost your loved one.
There's nothing anybody can say.
It's always there. Correct.
And it's always there for other people, too.
You can't remind me I lost Dave.
You also can't remind someone that she has cancer, or that his father just went to jail, or that she lost a job.
It's not possible. Big hardships, these challenges, they're always with us.
But we often don't say anything.
And I understand this because I always did it.
If someone in my life were going through something hard, usually the first time I saw them, I would say I'm so sorry.
Very little. And then I would never bring it up again because I didn't want to remind them.
And you would also say, how are you?
I've done it. How are you?
I mean, how are you, ready?
How are you? Not great.
Not great. No one says that.
Yes. And also, when you say not great, if you say not great, nobody knows what to do with that.
They're like, oh God, I knew I shouldn't have brought it up, you know?
As though me asking the question or asking the question caused you to be not great.
And I think it's about acknowledging pain.
Because when we don't say anything, the person still knows whatever they're going through, but they feel alone.
And that's what happened to me.
You know, before Dave died, I would drop my kids off at school and everyone would say hi, walk into work, Facebook's a friendly place.
Everyone would chitchat.
After Dave died, it was almost like I was a ghost.
People looked so afraid to say the wrong thing.
So they would avoid it.
Yeah. And they would walk into the meeting and sit down and wait for me to start the meeting.
They wouldn't even talk to each other.
Yes. And I found it interesting that you felt, you know, with the big elephant in the room, how odd that people would see you and not even bring it up.
If I would have dinner with a good friend, they would come over two weeks later and be like, how are you?
How was work today?
Like, how was work today?
Well, and so what I've realized, and I saw myself in this, I didn't acknowledge before, is there is something so powerful about technology.
Not everyone wants to talk all the time, but you can always say to someone, I know you're hurting and I am here.
We can talk about it.
We cannot talk about it.
But I know you are in pain.
Yeah. Or I know you've been through that.
I know, even if you don't know what it is, because people feel like they've got to say, oh, I can imagine what it is.
You really can't unless you've been through it.
No, you can't. No. So last year you spoke publicly for the first time since Dave's death during your commencement address at UC Berkeley.
And I think these were the lines that caused that speech to go viral.
You said, Dave's death changed me in very profound ways.
I learned about the depths of sadness and the brutality of loss, which that word struck me, the brutality of loss.
But I also learned that when life sucks you under, you can kick against the bottom, break the surface and breathe again.
So how are you learning to breathe again?
I'm learning to let the grief come when it comes.
It was very good advice.
My rabbi told me to lean into the suck.
Lean into the suck.
Not what I meant when I said lean in.
You miss lean in. Miss lean in for our times.
Lean into the suck.
Which was actually really good advice because I think for me and a lot of people when we get upset, we're kind of upset or upset.
I get sad and then I'm sad.
I'm sad. Yeah, that's called second derivative.
Right. I get angry and then I'm angry.
I'm angry. I get nervous.
Then I'm nervous. I'm nervous.
And so it just piles on.
And when he just told me lean into the suck, this is going to suck.
It really helped me be like settle into the feelings.
And then they kind of they were more gentle or they passed more quickly.
And my friend Davis, who's a filmmaker, told me this, he looked at me and he said, when I do a film, he does documentaries.
Yeah, I don't know where it's going to go.
The story has to unfold.
And he said to me, you cannot put your grief in a little box.
You are trying to tie it up with a bow and understand it and analyze it and structure it.
No, this is your story and you have to let it unfold.
And that means you need to just let it happen.
So learning to lean into the suck was a process for you.
And actually it was your friend Phil Deutsch, who said, tell me about that moment.
Yeah, it was a few weeks after Dave died and there was a father -son activity we had signed my son up for.
And so we needed to do something.
So Phil helped me come up with a few ideas, someone who could cover for Dave.
And it was good. And then I said, but I want Dave.
Dave is supposed to go to this with our son.
This isn't how it's supposed to be.
And he said option A is not available.
So let's just kick this out of option B.
And it was we. We were going to kick this out of option B.
He didn't say you were going to.
His arm was around me and he said we.
And when he was traveling and not with me, he would write me one -line emails, you were not alone.
A childhood friend sent me a card that still hangs above my desk that said one day she woke up and realized we were all in this together.
My friend Elise, this is the acknowledgment.
Rather than not saying anything, could you remind them?
Say something and say we.
We will get through this.
I don't know what's going to happen.
I know you don't know what's going to happen.
Acknowledge. But we, I will be there for you.
And you know, what I've discovered is everybody just wants to know that they matter.
And that acknowledgment lets a person know in the fullest sense of themselves that not only do I matter, but the fact that you see me and you as a part of the we.
And that's an amazing gift to give.
The other thing I learned was the power of just doing something specific.
So before Dave died, if someone was having a hard time, I would say, is there anything I can do?
And I meant that kindly.
But when people ask me that question, they kind of.
Now you gotta figure out what it is they need to do.
Right. And the answers that pop into my mind are not doable.
Well, can you make sure my kids and I are never alone for a holiday?
Can you make Father's Day disappear along with the father -daughter dance so I don't have to live through?
You know, but so many people showed up for you.
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So you called Adam Grant.
I know you and Adam wrote this book together.
You called Adam Grant and said what?
Help me. Yeah he came to the funeral we had been writing together.
We wrote a New York Times series on women in the workplace and you know he was a psychologist.
And I was so terrified that I didn't know how to get my kids through it.
I was worried their childhood happiness would have been eradicating.
Because your biggest fear was?
My kids wouldn't be happy.
I mean it's as a mother you have your own pain but the pain of your children and I also.
You feel like you're supposed to give your kids a safe happy childhood.
Every mother wants that.
Not everyone can because we don't help them enough but every mother wants that.
And I couldn't protect them from this.
And I asked him what do I do?
Tell me what to do.
To get through this and get my kids through it.
And those are the conversations that eventually led to writing this.
Yeah. One of the things that struck me though is when I read option B was the fact that you found Dave you and friends found him on the gym floor and the memory of him being on the floor and where his face was placed and you trying to give him CPR and then someone else trying to give CPR taking over
for you and then the medic's coming in that you're finding him sort of place that trauma in your brain in a way.
That had you not found him or just heard about it and he'd been taken to the hospital wouldn't have.
Yeah I've only had this experience.
I mean it's all horrific no matter what happens but we were at Phil's party and it was time to go to dinner and Dave wasn't around.
And you know I didn't really worry about it.
He's 47 years old but when he didn't show up for dinner he'd be gone a few hours.
All of a sudden I was like oh my God something's wrong and my brother and sister -in -law and I ran to the gym and we found him and yeah I tried to do CPR.
Doctor came and ambulance the whole thing.
And it's just one horrific moment after another.
You know in the whole time through it again it almost feels like a dream or a nightmare and you're praying you're going to wake up.
And you know people have asked me what was the worst moment.
There's just a lot of competition for that slot but probably telling my children.
Yeah. By far. And yet in the telling of your children I want to talk about how do you tell your children you walk into the house that same day.
It was that same day right.
The next morning. Or the next morning.
You walk into the house and your daughter's going up the stairs and she doesn't notice but your son sees you and immediately notices something's wrong.
Yeah well you know she's seven he's 10 so I'm not supposed to be home till the next day and she's like hi mom and goes upstairs but he's 10 he's like why are you home and where's dad?
I had a family friend Carol Geithner who counsels grieving children and someone reminded me to call her before I got home which was great and she really helped prepare me and I mean so I I tried to follow her advice I sat down on the couch with my sister and my mom and dad and my kids.
You know I said I have terrible news which is you know basically the understatement of all time and I just tried to tell them and what Carol said to emphasize over and over was that they weren't going to be alone.
But they were surrounded by love and friends and family.
She also prepared me and thank God she did because I would not have been prepared for this that they would ask right away if I was going to die too.
Which they did it's a very common reaction children have to the death of one parent or someone close in their life and I would have just never known how to handle that.
And yet there was a miracle in that moment which is the reason I'm asking I just find it miraculous that your 10 year old son in that moment of you telling him the most horrible thing he could ever hear in his life.
He says I'm so glad you came home to tell him.
Thank you. Thank you for telling me yourself.
That night that night when I was putting my daughter to bed she said I don't only feel bad for us.
I feel bad for Grandma Paula and uncle Rob to they lost him and so at the worst moments of their lives my kids are able to have gratitude and empathy and yeah I think that gave me hope it really did.
Yeah when I read that I think I thought that speaks to the kind of the kind of children you and Dave had raised I mean to have a child in the worst moment say thank you Mom for coming home and tell me telling me yourself and to say I feel bad but I'm also thinking about my grand and other people who loved
him too. And my kids have well done.
Well it's well done.
It's them I get the credit it you know they have perspective other kids don't have my son's basketball team lost the playoffs and all the other this year and all the other little boys were sad if you were crying and I looked at him I said are you OK and he looks me as Mom.
This is sixth grade basketball.
I'm fine really with a tone of mom they don't know.
They don't know. But he did say to you at another point when you were I don't know what wavering or you were trying to decide what to do and he your son says to you Mom just be yourself.
I had a I had to go to his school musical thing and someone said I asked a woman how she was and she said she wasn't doing well because her husband was out of town and missing the performance.
She didn't mean it but it just flooded me of Dave will never be at another one again and I just went home and I was I was kept together while I was there but as soon as I got to my house I was just crying and once a year I have Facebook's biggest clients over for dinner once a year and they were downstairs
and I just couldn't stop crying.
And my son came up and said Mom everyone's here you have to go downstairs and I couldn't stop crying and I said well I can't stop crying and he just looked at me and said Mom they all know what happened to us.
You should just go downstairs and be yourself and then he said turns around he goes I bet they have things they cry about too.
And I think my kids had to learn and for a 10 year old boy and a 7 year old girl that's not easy that.
Respect our feelings like the feelings were going to come like he had times he couldn't stop crying and we all to you because you write about the.
The the primal whaling that happened when you first told them and also when you all got out of the car to bury their father how they just dropped to the ground and nobody could move and then you dropped to the ground with them and people are piling on top of you cousins my cousins and everybody's hugging
I mean that is. Yeah, it was perfect.
And there is one. But it's also love it's love showing up for you.
Yeah. And then I didn't know what to do.
And I was kind of waiting for us to do the burial and they're screaming and my cousins.
And I started singing which I'm not very good singer but what's interesting is and I thought about this a lot.
It's what you're saying.
Yeah. I started singing a song called say Shalom which is a song for my childhood and I didn't learn until way later that that song comes from the cottage which is the prayer we say when someone dies in June.
Wow. So I knew the cottage and I knew the song but I did not I don't remember ever being told that one was from the other and I don't remember ever singing say Shalom before in my life and I feel I think that in that moment the fact that that song came to me.
Was someone trying to protect us or protect them.
And I looked back on that as another sign of hope along with my son thanking my daughter having empathy there was there was there's hope in even in those horrific moments and that's what I want people to understand with option B.
There's hope there is almost always hope.
I love what you when you wrote on page actually 72 here when I wrote Lean In some people argue that I did not spend enough time writing about the difficulties women face when they don't have a partner.
They were right. They were absolutely right.
I mean Lean In I wrote about different family structures but I also wrote a whole chapter called make your partner a real partner and you know that's like the father daughter dance the label.
If the father daughter dance were called the like daughter friend dance or the daughter pick a person dance and people without fathers could pick daughter relative daughter.
Yeah anything but it's called father door.
So it explains to you that you know the father that chapter said make your partner real partner so it implied everyone had one and I was wrong and I wrote it for Mother's Day last year.
I thought so much about what happens to women who don't have partners or lose partners.
You know 37 percent of single mothers in our country of all backgrounds live in poverty and the poverty line is low.
People have really struggled way above that line.
It's 40 percent of your black or Latina.
So you didn't get it.
You say you didn't get it.
You obviously knew those facts.
You had the stats but I didn't get it but you didn't get it.
You say I didn't get how hard it is to succeed at work when you are overwhelmed at home.
I mean that's a big statement.
Yeah. I didn't know how hard it is to succeed at work when you're overwhelmed at home.
And I think for every woman who you know is being asked to lean in who is a single mom who is overwhelmed they're going to lean into what I'm just trying to survive.
That's right. Yeah.
And we need we need a lot of change.
We need a living wage for people.
Federal minimum wage hasn't been raised in forever.
You know we need child support.
We need affordable child care which we don't have in this country.
We're the only developed country in the world with no paid maternity leave.
One of the only ones with no family and medical.
It's not getting better.
It's getting worse.
Well we have no choice but to make it better because where we are is completely unacceptable.
By the time I finished reading this I thought I don't know Miss Sandberg.
Are there some political leanings.
Do you think. How do you feel now obviously writing this book having the conversations that you've had leading up to this book including here.
You're going to open the door of people being able to speak to one another change the way we look at grieving in this country.
But is there more. I love my job so I'm staying at Facebook but I feel that I have with the opportunities I have in the voice I'm able to have.
I have a responsibility to argue for the public policies we need to set the right example at Facebook.
Argue that other companies and help other companies follow and to kick a lot of very ugly elephants out of a lot of very ugly rooms.
I got an email yesterday from a very senior man running a very male kind of organization and he said there's a woman who works for him who lost her husband suddenly and he is trying to be like Mark Zuckerberg.
And so when this happened before he went to brought it up because he didn't want to upset anyone.
But now he's been talking to her all the way through and he shared with me a letter she so kindly wrote to him saying to him you're my Mark Zuckerberg.
Because Mark Zuckerberg was the Mark Zuckerberg of all time unbelievable yeah unbelievable.
I called him from the hospital and I called him and said I text him really important and he said later I do that all the time or I used to do that all the time.
So we didn't think it was really important but he called me right back and then he was just shocked and yeah he helped play in the funeral he showed up for me and my kids and the most important thing he did is he built myself confidence back up at work.
I have no idea how he knew how to do this.
I didn't know how to do this before at work if someone was going through something hard I would do everything I could to take the pressure off.
Do you need time off.
You don't have to do that project.
Of course you can't focus with all your going through and those are kind and important things to do.
But when the person wants to be at work when you say that what happened to me is when people said that to me I'm like oh my God I can't do my job.
That's why they're telling me not to show up.
Oh my God they don't want me to do the project and my self confidence really crumbled even after lean in.
When Dave died because I couldn't get through a meeting without crying how could I contribute.
And you're sitting and I think is important to note as you say often in the book you're sitting in meetings and you're thinking about that gym floor.
That's right. And I knew I knew where I was.
Yeah. But I would just see him.
Yeah. And then I would cry and I would think about telling my children and think about what was going to happen that night.
But what Mark did is when I said I came to work the first day I was there for four hours as far as I could tell it was total disaster.
I fell asleep in a meeting.
I misidentified basic stuff.
I rambled. It was bad.
And so I called Mark that night I said maybe I tried to come back.
It was 10 days later.
Maybe too soon. Yeah.
The grief experts had told me to try to get my kids back to school and get back to my routines.
I was trying to follow their advice.
I said maybe it's too soon.
I made a total fool of myself.
Mark said lots of people sleep in meetings.
But then he said but I think he made a really important point today and here's what it was.
And then he said come back or don't.
When you're ready but you helped us even today.
It was the nicest thing anyone could have done.
So now when someone's struggling with something personal I always say do you want time off.
We have great policies.
Do you want things taken off you.
But I also will say the next day the next week.
Hey do you want to do this.
Only if you want to.
But you're still the best person for this.
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Terms apply. I thought this was so memorable and struck me when you were saying everybody knows about the golden rule and you had lived by the golden rule for the longest of times but through this process you created the platinum rule which is.
Well the golden rule is do what you think you want done to you and that's what I had done.
Do unto others you have them do unto you.
We all know that. I was wrong about like not bringing it up asking to do anything.
I realize we don't know what people who are really going through something we've never experienced want.
So the platinum rule is do what they want.
So you can ask someone you know look you're my very dear friend.
I know you're going through this real hardship and we work together what's better for you.
Every morning should I say how are you today and acknowledge or would you rather I not say anything while you're at work.
Ask ask them a profound thing ask and then and then and then listen and then really listen.
So with your children I before Dave died there was you had family rules right.
We had a mission. And your mission really a rule.
We had rules but not before Dave died we talked about our you know we had read read Bruce Feiler's book and it had said make a family mission so we had done that with Dave and I treasure that we have that.
Dave signed it as well.
It's up and it was to make you know they were young.
It was to be kind to everyone.
That was our family family mission but next to that after Dave died my kids and I wrote family rules.
We wrote them together.
So the first rule was respect our feelings.
It's okay to be sad.
They're going to need to take cry breaks even from school.
It's okay to be angry.
It's okay to be jealous of other people who still have fathers even of me.
I still have a father.
And it's okay to be happy.
The fact that I can sit here.
I'm right here right now with you.
And I'm okay. I am not picturing Dave.
I am not about to curl up on the floor.
I'm walking without pain.
Not every minute not every day but a lot.
But I appreciate it.
It never occurred to me to be grateful for a day where I didn't cry all day.
Ever. Or even that I'm that I'm old.
Durr. Yeah. On March 27th somewhere around 5 or 6 p .m.
I lived longer than Dave lived.
You know I was cognizant of that.
Of course I wanted him to live but the appreciation for oh my god you know hopefully in August you know I will turn 48.
Dave never turned 48.
Never would have appreciated it before.
No one can make a joke near me again about growing old.
Anyone makes a joke like oh I'm sorry I'm growing old.
I literally look at them I'm like don't say that.
Because we either grow older we don't.
And also what you talk about so beautifully in option B is this getting through all the firsts and you were keeping a journal which I think is really it's so therapeutic I've kept journals since I was 15 but keeping a journal up until that Dave's birthday which I think marked 156 days.
Yeah marked 5 months yeah 5 months.
I had always wanted to journal.
I have boxes of journals starting in first grade where you started and then January 1st I don't think I got to January 10th a year but I started a new one I was hopeful.
But when Dave died I just journaled I sat at my computer for hours and wrote and wrote and wrote and if I didn't write for 2 days I felt like I was going to burst.
So it was your way of letting it out.
Yeah you also came to I will say the hard way the understanding of how gratitude and looking at because I've been doing this since the mid 90s where you go through the day and I choose I have journals filled with just things that brought me joy and pleasure that I'm grateful for.
I have journals filled with it and you make the point that I've tried to make to people for years that when you are looking for 3 things or 5 things in the day that are going to make you joyful.
You go through the world looking for the goodness that's going to show up correct, correct.
So it turned out joy joy is a discipline we have to work at it and I probably didn't work at it hard enough before but now I really took it for granted.
You do what everybody does.
But it's exactly that before this I used to go to bed every night worrying about what I did wrong and what I was going to mess up the next day.
And now I go to bed thinking of the positive but also I noticed them during the day I say that's going to make the journal in that moment and I take and I love that.
Yeah or maybe you do 5 maybe 5 3 moments 5 moments write them down religiously.
Any moment would do it.
I mean just because it is stopping and taking stock of where you are in your life and it's also looking at the good stuff and I will tell you when you look for the good stuff more good stuff shows up.
And we also we're not very good at understanding happiness as human beings.
I think we think of our eye thought of happiness as the big stuff.
It's not the big stuff.
Joy is the small stuff.
So those moments of joy do not need to be some big event and they're usually not.
My coffee tasted great.
This tea is actually delicious.
This tea is delicious.
One of my kids gave me a hug without being asked maybe hinted at but not outright asked right that these tiny little moments are the moments that make our lives and I'm telling you Cheryl when you go back and look at what you've written since 2016.
I mean it will bring you joy just to read the joy journal.
Joy builds on the joy.
Joy builds on the joy.
It's the secondary.
Second derivative. Second derivative.
That's right. You were talking about.
So in all these ways you you're not the same Cheryl that you were before date died.
Yeah. No. I am more present.
I am more cognizant of the joy and I am so much more grateful for life.
And you know there's that moment when I think it was your was it your was it your brother or was it Rob who came in and said to you I think it's time.
No so important. I am I told my kids early on that they should respect their feelings and be happy but I couldn't give that to myself about four months after Dave died I was at a friend's bar mitzvah kid and a high school friend pulled me on to the dance floor me dance.
And then I just kind of collapsed I mean a crying it was embarrassing I had to be kind of take it outside and I didn't know what was wrong and then I realized it wasn't I was sad I was happy and the guilt just flooded into my body.
What am I doing on a dance floor when Dave is gone.
How is this possible.
And Rob my brother -in -law called me right around then and crying on the phone it was most generous thing anyone could have done.
And he said all they ever wanted was for you and your children to be happy don't take that away from him in death.
And what I want option B to do and what Adam and I are hoping is that we will show up for each other kick elephants out of the room get people through the acute grief but also give them permission for joy for laughter.
Yeah and did you feel in the beginning that you couldn't joke about it but oh my gosh you couldn't joke about it I would joke about it and then I would be horrified I mean I said to my sister in law well at least I have to watch Dave's bad TV anymore.
And I laughed for a second and then I just gasps but one of the things I want option B to give people permission to do is make the jokes because the jokes help us I know understand there are a lot of jokes told at funerals.
Yeah. There always have been but I never thought about why because it gives us a moment moment a second to have joy and to feel like it's gonna be okay.
Well I think what is so wonderful I think what what option B does it not only gives you permission to take the joy back it gives you permission to grieve in whatever way is suitable for you and you did that with your kids with a game that you all played.
Yeah taking things back taking yeah.
So what we used to play settlers of Catan it was our family favorite favorite family game and Dave and I were playing on our iPads when he died so at first one of the reasons I wasn't joyful and Adam pointed this out he's like you don't do anything fun anything fun reminds you of Dave so of course you
have no joy. Of course that moment on the dance floor was your first moment of joy four months later you've systematically got for Adam my God.
I know absolutely but you've systematically cut all joy out of your life because it reminds you of Dave and so I decided we were going to take things back so we took back settlers of Catan without making a big deal I said to my kids who wants to play Catan like we do took the set out putting the pieces
out. My daughter reached for gray and my son said Daddy's gray.
Daddy was always gray.
You can't be gray. And I remember putting my hand on them and saying yes she can.
We take it back. If she wants to be great we take it back we take it back and daddy's name and daddy's honor.
And we took things back.
Dave was a Vikings fan we cheer for the Vikings.
It was a Warriors fan we cheer for the Warriors.
I took back scrabble.
I used to play with Dave and Dave used to play with his brother.
And now I play with Rob on my phone a couple times a day again these tiny well.
There are more moments of joy for him because he's always winning.
But it's joy for me too.
His profile picture is him and Dave.
So I have these couple moments a day where I play scrabble like I used to do with Dave with my brother -in -law and I see his face.
You also gave yourself permission to date again.
And I found it so interesting the stats on widow's widow, that word widow.
Women widows versus male widows who date.
Like 54 % of men I read in option B two years later are married.
One year later are dating.
And seven percent of women.
And seven percent of women.
Yeah I mean we... And why is that?
Because... We judge women much more harshly for dating than men and that's why men date sooner and more often.
And I'm really lucky because the people who gave me permission were Dave's mom and brother.
They were the first people to mention dating to me.
And I think it's because they had lost Dave's father so they had that experience.
But we don't want women particularly but people to move on.
And for me the thing is I never wanted to date again.
I knew who I wanted to spend my life with but option A is gone.
And so the permission I got from my closest friends and family even though I did get some public criticism really mattered.
And I want option B to give people that permission.
One way you can help others is you can say to someone it's okay to date if you want to.
I am there to support you.
I know that this isn't the choice you would have wanted to make and I'm not going to judge you.
Let me help you find someone or make a joke.
I'm here to cry with you.
I'm here to show up in the hospital even before being asked.
And I'm here to laugh with you.
I mean one of the most profound lessons of this whole thing is that this is not just a story about grief and loss.
This is a love story.
You love after someone dies.
I love Dave. Every bit as much as I ever did.
And I do. I'm dating someone.
I have joy. I have sorrow.
But death does not end a relationship.
And death does not end love.
What's the hardest choice you've had to make to fulfill your destiny?
I think getting divorced.
I was married once before Dave.
I was young. When he and I decided to not be married, I was 25.
It felt like this huge failure.
But I was too young.
And he was a wonderful guy.
It was a hard decision for both of us to make.
But it opened me up to where I think I needed to go.
What's the lessons taking you the longest to learn?
Gratitude. Dave had to die for me to find the gratitude.
You know I've asked a lot of people who sort of post -traumatic stress.
Everyone says yes. Who's heard of post -traumatic growth?
No one. But more people experience post -traumatic growth and post -traumatic stress.
After trauma, we grow.
We get more joyful.
In some ways, we get more appreciative.
And for me, it was gratitude.
Yeah. If you allow it to, though, don't you think you have to be open to it?
Because there are a lot of people who shut down and they never move forward.
I think you have to be open to it, and you have to know it's possible.
It's why Adam and I wrote the book.
Adam told me post -traumatic growth happens.
You have to believe.
And I think, and Adam thinks, we think pre -traumatic growth happens.
You can grow without the trauma.
That's right. You can find that gratitude without the trauma.
Oh, I know you can, because I listened to so many stories over the years.
And I was like, don't want to go through that.
Let me get that lesson through you.
Don't want to go through that.
Let me get this. Yes.
What's the best piece of advice you ever received and actually followed?
I think writing down three moments of joy.
Best advice. It has changed my life.
What do you think is the biggest obstacle to peace in our world?
Understanding. Seeing ourselves in the other people who are suffering.
Why do we let millions of children die of malaria and unclean water?
Why is one in three children in the San Francisco Bay Area hungry tonight?
Because we don't understand.
We don't see their experience in our own.
We don't see our experience in theirs.
You were able to find your path.
We're just talking about how making the decision to divorce your first husband opened you up to a greater possibility in your life.
How would you advise people who are looking to find the path forward for themselves?
Believe that option B exists.
I mean, no one's life is perfect.
We're all living some form of option B.
But trying to realize that when you have no choice, which we often do, to focus on what we can still be grateful for, realize what you're walking without pain when you are.
So I love this where you write, resilience in love means finding strength from within that you can share with others.
Finding a way to make love last through the highs and the lows.
Finding your own way to love when life does not work out as planned.
Finding the hope to love and laugh again when love is cruelly taken from you.
And finding a way to hang on to love even when the person you love is gone.
I still love Dave. This book is about grief and overcoming loss, but this book is a love story to Dave Goldberg.
And I hope it honors the life he led.
You know, he was amazing.
At his funeral, I've never seen this done at a funeral, our friend Xander in his eulogy asked everyone whose life was changed by Dave Goldberg.
Oh, and everybody raised their hands.
Hands went up. I meet people to this day who say, not I knew Dave because that's not surprising, but Dave changed my life and here's how.
And so if option B helps anyone, anyone hang on to love or recover, it's what Dave Goldberg would have done.
Well, thank you. Thank you.
And thank you, Adam, for writing this book, because I think it gives everyone a new way of expressing what it means when you don't have option A to be able to have an option B.
You've given us permission to kick it out of option B.
Thank you. Thank you.
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