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I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time.
Taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Rob Bell is many things a bestselling author, a dynamic public speaker, and founder of a Midwestern megachurch. He's been called a central figure for his generation.
Bell stands out as a pastor who embraces the big questions that many people have about faith and religion.
And Bell says he has been aware of his spirituality since he was a child.
At 22, Rob entered seminary in Pasadena.
Six years later founded his first church back home in Michigan.
He called it Mars Hill Bible Church and it was different.
There was no dress code, there was no choir and no pulpit.
The response was overwhelming.
The congregation became one of the fastest growing churches in the country.
In 2005, Rob published his first book called Velvet Elvis, Repainting the Christian Faith, and three more provocatively titled books soon followed, his intention to provide a fresh and personal perspective on God and matters of Christianity.
Then in 2011, Rob released the book that would be the game changer, Love Wins, pondered the questions that are often considered taboo in traditional Christianity.
What if heaven is open to all, rather than a select few?
And what if hell doesn't exist at all?
For hundreds of thousands of readers, Rob's teachings were a revelation.
Now, in his latest book, What We Talk About When We Talk About God, Rob explores our relationship with the higher power through his characteristically untraditional lens.
I was thrilled to finally meet Rob after reading his books.
So as the clouds began to roll down the Maui mountainside, we gathered on my front porch for a super soul chat.
So you say we're in the midst of a massive rethink when it comes to God, with the end of one era and the beginning of another.
Let's talk about that.
What does that mean, Pastor Bell?
I think there are moments when a word has got so much stuff attached to it that you have to just brush all that off and go, what do we really mean?
And for many people, like I talk about in the book, God is against us.
God doesn't want human flourishing.
God is the one waiting to punish or torment or torture or something.
Judgment and wrath, yes.
Because when you say to people, God is love, there's a whole other group of people saying, yeah, he may be love, but God is also judgment and wrath and punishing.
Whatever that discussion is, people immediately take that to mean, whatever struggle I'm going through, whatever life is really like for me, God is against me.
I'm on my own. And maybe I have a couple of friends.
And so, there is this extraordinary thing that you and I and others have tapped into, where you are not alone, and there is help, and there is guidance, and...
I love the way that you speak.
First of all, it speaks just like you're talking right now.
Sounds like I'm reading the book, I'm talking to you.
You say God is kind of like an Oldsmobile.
Was that me? Yeah, yeah.
You know, I grew up in the center of Michigan, and Oldsmobiles were made down the road, And that was the thing.
Like, Thanksgiving after the meal, the uncles and every grandpa's all went in the garage.
My dad had one, 1958.
Green Osmobile. Yeah, see everybody.
A big, a long thing.
And people can do like, was that a Delta 88 or a 98?
Yeah. Yeah. And that was the like the moment, and if you'd made it, or if you'd done something, then you got an Osmobile.
Yes. But they've shut those factories down.
They're not making them anymore.
And my experience is interacting with lots of very educated, intelligent people who have traveled and have a thousand songs in their pocket with their iPhone.
I mean they live in this modern, gleaming, shimmering world and are like, seriously God?
Come on. Really? It's a giant step backwards.
So I was in the book trying to look for, like, what's the image or metaphor that sort of summarizes to me the lots of people I've interacted with when you talk about God?
You know what I mean?
It's like, oh yeah, that was nice.
That worked for my parents.
Or they grow up in a religious home, then they go to university.
And they take a bunch of classes, whether it's biology or comparative religions.
And they're like, the idea of the divine then gets firmly placed.
That was back when I was a kid, that was my adolescence, that was summer camp, that was my parents.
But I've moved past that.
Look at all the things.
But seriously, we need a God now.
Look at us, we're going to start traveling to space here pretty soon.
If Richard Branson or somebody can you know, arrange that in time.
And yet the same people would say to you like seriously, Church. Come on.
We'll also talk about a sunset or a glass of wine and talk about oh it was amazing.
It's like transcendent.
Talk about that though for people who haven't read the book yet.
In the book I try to talk about there's a very popular voice that says this is all there is.
We're simply just a complex arrangement of neurons and synapses and you're the sum of your biology.
And it's very articulate and it can be very funny and very compelling and it can explain why there's been bad wars and the crusades and such. And so people go yeah, yeah, great, that's yeah, I'm with that.
But it still leaves people with this giant.
Then how do I explain when my first kid was born or when my partner embraces me or when I sit with my favorite friends on the deck having a meal and something within me, we use the word like, that meal was transcendent.
What do we mean, we mean it was both here and yet it sort of pointed beyond itself.
It seems to be a reference.
The great German theologian Jürgen Moltmann talks about it, it's like an echo.
This thing here was like an echo of a larger sound.
Well, so many people.
You're talking about science and logic, but so many people have no proof.
And because there's no proof, they say, you know, how could you believe in something that you can't prove because you can't see God, except you can.
Yeah. That's the thing about the modern world is what it did is it took truth from many people, and it put it through this unbelievably narrow filter of rational scientific analysis.
But then explain why do you love that person.
well, I just do. Some of the things that we're most convinced are true, we can't jam through that filter.
But I love that you say that for many people, faith and doubt are opposites, but they really are excellent dance partners.
Even though Rob has always been a man of great faith, after turning 30, he started to question what he'd been taught his whole life, to accept the Bible word for word. He immersed himself in Biblical history, drawing inspiration from Jewish rabbinical scholars whose faith was actually strengthened by questioning, Rob felt empowered to embrace his doubts head -on, and he gained the confidence he needed to make a leap of faith.
Everybody's really leaping.
Everybody's really taking sort of fragments and the shrapnel you have of your experiences.
And you're leaping into this story or this story.
I'm going to make the leap that what I do matters, that I'm not an accident, that there is some call on my life.
That in itself is actually a...it's a leap.
And other people go, mmm, this is all there is.
At some point you're going to die and they're going to bury you and you're going to be eaten by the worms, and everybody ultimately is leaping.
And I think the people in the modern world with the most, sort of, this is the rational, scientific evidence why there is no God, that's just as much a leap.
So that is what you mean by God being a reality known and felt but difficult to analyze?
And there's really a German word for it.
What is that word I couldn't pronounce in the book?
One of the versions is Grenzenbegriff, which I love these...
I just love strange words.
But I love that there's this word of that which is real but beyond analysis.
That which is real.
It's even like a category...
It's that which... I don't know why I love that song.
And I could try to explain to you that album and how it touched me and moved me and how I crank it up in my all alone, and I get all like, eh, what I'm singing.
And it's so real to me what that collection of songs does.
And yet, if I had to put it out on paper, A, B, C, D, I don't know.
And yet, you say there's this lethal division of the science and the sacred.
Yeah. Well, I think it cuts people off from celebrating.
To me, the only kind of faith worth having is faith that can celebrate the good and the true and the beautiful and wherever you find it.
it's a big, buoyant sort of expansive embrace of everywhere you find.
Well, you also, you know, my definition of God is the all.
The all in the all through the all, above the all in the all.
And then you, on page 18, basically say the same thing.
I understand God to be the...
these are your words.
The energy, the glue, the force, the life, the power, the source of all we know to be.
The depth, the fullness, vitality of life from the highest of the highs to the lowest of the lows, and everything in between.
I think that's the all.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah. So let's begin with where you began in the book.
We first need to open.
And, seriously, first and foremost, to all the really smart, studied people who have been to the TED conference and have iPhones, it's not crazy to acknowledge that there's a God.
It may actually be the most rational move, is simply to say, I come to the end of my own logical powers and acknowledge there's too much that's beyond what we can sort through using these little brains that we have. And for 300 years, the water we've been swimming in, that we've been handed by the Enlightenment tradition, which has brought us medicines and hospitals and all sorts of wonderful things, has also brought us, ultimately, if you cannot explain it, I don't know.
And yet we're fascinated as humans, we're wired for the mysterious.
We love it, we're drawn to it, you can't stifle it.
So you're saying, just open to that.
It's OK to be open.
It's OK to be open.
For many people in the modern world, God is somewhere else, generally with a long beard on a cloud.
Right? And he was quite grumpy until Jesus came.
Absolutely. You know, when I was a kid, my version was, he was on a cloud, long beard, white robes, and had a big black book.
And it was like when he opened it, it was like, boom, boom.
pages even have my sort of yeah and so this God is somewhere else and then from time to time like people say everything God showed up yeah so apparently comes here from time to time yeah by the way I don't think God shows up I think we do oh I do too um so this framework then however helpful it may be raises a thousand questions because my friend just died of cancer and what about the Because it would have been really nice to show up then.
So you end up with a God.
What it does it a far more subtle way is that this world can go on just fine.
And that God becomes essentially optional.
We then now have like a - Who drops in every now and then.
Exactly. So then you have pamphlets.
And you have this whole thing called apologetics.
Which is I'm going to prove to you that that God even exists even though life goes on just fine here.
So what's fascinating is the ancient Hebrews had this word rua, which they spoke of the life force that surges through all things.
So it's the word in the very beginning of Genesis 1, like this, the spirit hovering, but for many people in our world, spirit is that which is less real.
You know what I mean?
Oh, it's spiritual, which means there's sort of like jeans and shoes and plastic and porches and then there's this other realm, sort of less real, we even do this up, right?
There's this stuff here.
Yeah, and then there's...
And then there's, ah!
Then the discussion becomes something far more different because we've all experienced that I simply want to give the name God to that so the person who says oh I don't know if I believe in God but do you like you were you there in the hospital when your kid was born?
Well what else was that?
Could the word life be another word for God yeah yeah you could exchange the words?
Yes exactly what I'm trying to do in the book is simply move a person's from somewhere out here optional, to the very thing we're all plugged into...
That we're experiencing the presence of… Every single day...
...all the time, all around us.
Yeah. And so, then as a human, the art of it then is being awake, and open, and aware, and sensitive to this presence right here and now in suffering and joy, in meeting a stranger and however it works.
Okay. So that's what I mean by with.
With us. Yes. us. And now, For Us.
For Us is about human flourishing.
When you hear the word God, do you think God wants us to flourish to get along, for there to be peace on earth, for there to be better art and more great food, and does God want us to take the best possible care of the earth?
I believe at the heart of the Christian story is the God who comes among us, because this God wants us to flourish, wants us to shine.
Jesus even talks about shining like stars in the universe.
My experience has been, as a pastor, lots of people, when they start talking about spiritual things, somewhere in there is the God who is against us.
Who's mad, angry, and I'm trying to recapture—no, for you.
He wants you to thrive, wants you to work through all your stuff, wants you to be healed in the sense of, like, figuring out your past and figuring out your addictions and all the stuff we all sort of stumble through life carrying around.
OPRAH WINFREY So God is for human's flourishing?
JESSE BROWN Yes. Yeah, yeah.
And on earth is where it matters.
On earth, like, when Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray, God, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
So when he's teaching them, he's not saying, okay, here's the deal.
I'm going to tell you what you need to do so you can get out of here someday.
He's telling them what it looks like for this place to be more and more the place God desires it to be.
OPRAH WINFREY Yeah.
The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Here. Right here. Now.
This place. This place.
So this is not an evacuation theology that is about, here's what you do to evacuate.
Get out of here, to get to beamed up.
And I think when it comes to spirituality, this is for many people like the missing piece.
I'm not talking about sort of esoteric ideas about maybe some time when you die you can get the proper sort of Ferrari on gold streets.
Yeah. I'm talking about what happens when you experience right here right now a quality of life that is earth and heaven coming together in this place right here we even talk about heaven on earth we sort of joke about that but that's what he teaches us to do like when you forgive somebody when you are generous when you withhold judgment and you love that's when you stand up for injustice you you are in that moment bringing heaven to earth my My understanding of God is the One Who is way ahead, pulling us all forward to do a better future.
Peace, justice, beauty, love, equality, that God is actually ahead.
And that a promise is essentially a statement about that which is not yet true.
So, my experience has been, for lots of people, this turns the whole discussion around.
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This is when I knew you were a different kind of preacher.
You were passing out Eckhart Tolle books in your church, what, 10 years ago.
So you're a fan of Eckhart Tolle and the power of now.
What do you think is the connection between God and the present moment?
But that's what we have. That's what we have. and that we burn an extraordinary amount of energies on our regrets...
OPRAH WINFREY of...
OPRAH WINFREY Yeah.
...of past or our stresses about where it's going to go.
And what we really have is right now in this moment, that's what we have. OPRAH WINFREY Didn't you have a big, big moment about, a big aha about present -moment living after having a concussion?
Yes. This was the summer of 2000, and I was really into water skiing and specifically trying to do a backflip.
And I had done like 20 in a row, and I landed on my head each time.
And I got in the boat, and I don't remember it from there on, but someone apparently asked me what day it was.
And I was like, I have no idea.
And so I had basically a concussion, like a football player would have. But what it did is, my brain could only do this moment.
I'm talking to Oprah right now, and she's wearing a turquoise shirt.
And I think she's cold from the wind with like a shawl, but other than that.
Yes I would. Can I have a shawl please?
How'd you know? Just a feeling.
But it was weird because the brain is only working that speed.
And like the past and the present.
Thank you, shawl giver.
Man, the choreography was outstanding.
Ask when it is given, let me tell you.
And it's just the color I was looking for, too.
Thank you. But I could like, it sounds like something I talk about, but like my kids would walk in the room and I would like tear up at how beautiful they are.
because I could see.
Because of the concussion?
I could see the brain could only handle exactly what was present.
In the moment? Wow.
The most simple things and the most simple gestures.
And it was literally, like, overwhelmingly beautiful.
Now, isn't that interesting that we have to be, that you had to be, and most of us have to be disrupted and literally hit over the head to get that?
And often, don't you think that's what crises and challenge and difficult?
It's to focus you into the present moment so that you can live more fully with greater intention.
Whenever I meet people who seem to be more wide awake than others, I always ask, when did you suffer?
Just the other day, I was in Denver and met this guy who was like 58, 60, and had this joy.
And I asked one of the people who worked for him, what's his story?
And they're like, oh, in his 30s, he had a total meltdown and lost it all and, you know, ended up, like, by the side of the road.
Like, literally, just I have nothing.
Yeah. He knows how it can all pass in a moment.
Yeah. There's nothing left but joy.
That's how it works.
And you know how to go to that joy place.
And you know how to live more with a greater sense of presence, of mind, and intention when you've been through something.
That's what all that something is to teach you.
There was a line in here.
And I made so many notes in the books that I might as well forgot where my most important notes were.
But it just struck me.
It just struck me when you said, a lot of people always reaching for their spiritual life.
They're always saying, oh, you know, that when I'm working on my spirituality, I'm working on my spiritual life.
And you said it so succinctly, that there is no separation.
You're always. Yeah, everything's spiritual.
Everything is spiritual.
And you're always living your spiritual life.
It's whether you observe it or not.
It's what you were saying earlier about God.
God's always there.
and, you know, God's just waiting for us to wake up and see it.
Hey, I'm here! They'll be like, well, I have my spiritual life, then I have my work and I have my relationships and I have the things I do to sort of rea - wait wait wait wait.
What about that you say we live in a light world where so many things don't matter that it's easy to become numb?
I think that's why so many people feel so disconnected.
You know, I just met a guy who cleans houses for a living, and we're just chatting because we have, like, a mutual friend and I said, wow, so you clean?
Tell me more about that.
and he says, people allow me into their homes to bring order and cleanliness.
And I was like, wow, you take this really seriously.
He's like, oh, the fact that people would allow me into their most intimate spaces so that I could help a family bring order and beauty and cleanliness to their home so that they could have this kind of place to come home to.
This is somebody who's figured it out.
I was like, they must be so lucky to have you cleaning their house.
He's like, I'm the one who's blessed.
Now, see, that's so interesting because I was just saying this to my hairdresser, Andre.
You've seen him come out here many times already.
Yes. Hi, Andre. Hi, Andre.
Andre and I were talking about calling yesterday.
And I said, Andre, Andre, what do you think your true calling is?
And he goes, I don't know.
Something like that.
He didn't know what his true calling is.
I go, of course you know what your true calling is.
And he was saying, well, I don't know, well, can you change callings?
I say, it looks like your hairdresser.
because he's done my hair now for 30 years, 30, 30 years.
And I still have hair.
That's a big compliment.
So I said, no, it's not just doing hair.
You are about the enhancement of beauty.
That's what you do.
You bring an enhancement of beauty.
Which you use the tools of the trade are your blow dryer, and your curlers, and all that stuff.
But so for that guy who cleans people's houses to say that I bring order and beauty and that's exactly right.
Esthetics. That's what people get so messed up with the calling.
They think of calling has to be some big, I am called, Moses in the burning bush, and God is speaking to me, and I must do something with my life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Well said. What's going to be great is people think differently about what the physical job is versus what you really do.
You know, like, for instance, I am on television.
I have a job working on television and have had since I was 19 years old.
But a long time ago, I got that it wasn't just about working on television.
It was about using television to inspire people.
That's what I do. Yeah, there's a moment when they realize, hey, wait, this is TV, but it's more than TV.
This is cleaning houses.
Boy, this is more than cleaning houses.
What we talk about when we talk about God, page 123, You say you can be very religious and invoke the name of God and be able to quote lots of verses and be well -versed in complicated theological systems and yet not be a person who sees.
Yeah, it's one thing to have your head filled with all of the proper whatever thinking, whatever you were told was the right doctrine or whatever you were told was orthodox or whatever you're told that you're in and everybody else is out, whatever that.
but it's another thing to be sitting there with somebody and you're listening to them and you realize this person has more to teach me than every book I've read.
You know what I mean?
Seeing is different, it's a different set of muscles.
It's a, it's too...
I mean this environment here, I mean this is stunning and beautiful and lots of people would go wow, but it's in moments that are darker and in uglier environments to still see that little piece of light, like that's the task.
OPRAH WINFREY Yeah.
This is my favorite actually.
This is really the essence of what the book is talking about.
You say when we talk about God, page 121, we're talking about that sense you have however stifled, faint or repressed it is, that hope is real, that things are headed somewhere and that that somewhere is good.
Yeah. You believe that?
You believe we, as a culture, as a society, as a world, are ultimately headed somewhere that is good?
Okay, I went to the TED conference last year.
Yeah? They had asked like how many people are religious.
And a friend of mine was a guest, was two percent of the people raised their hands.
A couple of days later a guy named Ryan Stevenson talks.
He's this lawyer. He works in the south with young men who have sort of been on the wrong end of the justice system, and he gave this talk about justice.
And at the end, he quoted Martin Luther King, who was quoting someone else.
And he finishes with this, the moral arc of the universe is on, but it bends towards justice.
And they give him a standing ovation.
Yeah. So this is sort of the nexus of technology, and design, and education, and innovation.
This is the crowd. Yes.
And 2 % would say, yeah, I'm religious.
And yet a guy talks about the moral arc of the universe, and they go, yes.
Yes. It's almost like there's an intuitive...
If I give up on the most basic impulse I have that there's some point...
Yes? I kind of... what is left?
So I just find it fascinating that you and I...
Yes, that people just don't call it religion.
Yeah, exactly. You're talking about the moral arc of the universe...
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. ...bending towards justice...
Yeah. ...that is what your spiritual life, your life, is supposed to be about.
It is this sense that, don't tell me the best days.
There is something within me that tells me there's a reason to keep going.
Even if that's all you have, you have something that's, you have something pretty big there.
Yeah. That's overwhelming.
So now, you want to use your ministry, your life, your work, your next chapter to do specifically what?
I want more people to have a sense that they are loved, that the grace of God is real and it's for them, and that when Jesus talked about eternal life, a certain kind of life that you can have in relationship with God now, that people would taste that, and in response to that gift say, Well, what can I do?
And find their calling.
Find the thing that gets them up in the morning.
Find the work, the task, the art that leaves them saying, man, I could do this forever.
That's what I love.
I love to see that moment.
I love to see that moment.
Isn't that our true calling?
Isn't that our true calling, is to find what the purpose is and then be about the work of doing that?
Yeah, yeah. And when you see someone who's had that experience, It's unbelievably inspiring.
We have this, like, crisis of wonder.
We have the modern world, we have everything we ever needed, and yet people are more bored than ever, and sort of pulling back all those layers.
I know, that's why when you said that, when you said that, I just interrupted, I didn't mean to.
But when you said, I'm not worried about success, I'm not as worried about success.
Yeah, I didn't ask for success, I asked for wonder.
Asked for wonder. It just struck me, because wow.
That's the thing, isn't it?
We all want a little bit of that going on.
It's waking up and going, guess what we get to do today?
Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
That's all. I do know what you mean.
I feel good about today.
When you celebrate all that and it was thrilling and it was great and you got to be a part of that and it's overwhelming that your life could be this amazing.
Yeah. But you still have to wake up today and if you don't have a sense of, all right, let's see what this brings.
Yeah. Then what is it?
What are you doing?
What are you doing?
And that's what you want for people.
Yeah. Yeah. What is the soul?
It's the thing that keeps telling you there's more.
There's more. There's more.
This isn't just a meal.
This isn't just a person.
This isn't just an embrace.
This isn't just an interview.
There's more? Yeah, there's more.
Your definition of God?
Like a song, you hear another room and you think, boy that sounds beautiful, but I only can hear a little bit, so you start opening doors and rearranging furniture because you have to get in that room to hear that song.
When you get in, you find the knobs and you turn them all to the right.
cause you're like, I got to hear more of that.
And then you open the windows because you want the people of the next houses to hear it.
What's the difference between religion and spirituality, or is there a difference?
Well, you know, some say that religions, people don't want to go to hell, and spiritualized people who have been to hell, already.
Religion should be the structures, the prayer tables, the things that you do in the course.
It should help you.
It should cultivate.
It should be the practices.
It should be the symbols.
It should be the rituals that cultivate your sense that there's more.
Where does prayer mean to you?
Prayer to me is usually one word, which is yes.
Yes. I'm open. What's next?
That's what it is. What is the lesson it's taken you the longest to learn?
That there's nothing to prove.
Because you're young, and you start out, and you're like, dun, dun.
I can work harder, I can work faster, I'm smarter.
Look at me, respect, everybody understand what I'm...
and then later you realize there's nothing to prove anymore.
All that's left to do is enjoy.
OPRAH WINFREY What do you think happens when we die?
I think there's a ton of...
Because there's all these people that have gone before you.
And some people say, well, then you meet God.
I think, yeah, but I never met my grandpa.
on my dad's side. So actually when I think of like dying I think of I'll get to meet Preston.
That's actually what I think of first. I don't think of sort of gold and a throne and like a helloo ra well done you're strange but I like you anyway.
I don't think of that.
I think of like my grandpa that I never met.
To be honest like heritage and family bloodline.
All of them who came before you?
Yeah, I somehow think of flesh and blood.
I think of, like, people I've heard about.
I do, actually. And will they be in flesh and blood?
Maybe at some point, we're known for our essence and whatever that looks like or feels like.
What do you know for sure?
That you can say yes to this moment and experience a joy that can't be put into words.
That is actually possible.
I know that for sure.
The world needs. Finish that sentence.
The world needs... All of us to wake up.
I believe... That we're going to be fine.
I really do. Heaven is.
Here and now and then and there and at hand and among us and upon us, and available, and real.
God is? Oh, love. Stick to that one.
God is love. Yeah. My favorite thing to do on Sunday morning is?
My 13 -year -old son and I will often go surfing.
And we'll be sitting in the water.
And it's quiet. and sometimes a dolphin will go by in the talk, and it's perfect.
It's perfect, heh heh.
Yeah. Thank you. Oh, so wonderful.
We did it. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
If you haven't yet, go to Apple podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.
Thank you for listening.
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