I'm Oprah Winfrey.
Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
On Christmas 2011, Madonna Badger lost all three of her children and both her parents in an early morning fire.
Nine-year-old Lily, seven-year-old twins, Sarah and Grace, and her parents, Pauline and Lomer, all perished.
The hours before the fire were a picture-perfect Christmas Eve scene.
The girls decorated the house, Madonna's mom baked apple pie while her dad returned from his dream job playing Santa Claus at a New York department store.
I've thought about Madonna a lot since that fire.
I've held her in my prayers and wished her strength and love.
Supersoulers.
What Madonna has done in the face of unimaginable grief and pain will elevate our souls today.
As I sit down with her the day before her 50th birthday, I meet a true spiritual teacher who has discovered that opening herself up to love is the path that brings her closest to her three girls and her parents.
Madonna also shares her belief that death was not the end of their relationship, but a new beginning.
I have thought about you so many times over the past couple of years.
I think about you and I think about your family and I think about how you're doing, how you managed to get out of bed.
And then you did the TED Talk and answered all of those questions.
So really, it's a privilege to have you here, because I see you as a true spiritual teacher who had to, in the midst of the greatest storm of life, when everything has fallen apart, learn how to walk the walk.
Would you say you're still learning?
Yes, definitely.
I'm definitely still learning.
What made you want to tell your story, particularly the TED talk?
What made you want to do it?
Where you came to a point where you were finally ready to tell it?
My friend is a teacher at that school.
It's the Nightingale School in New York City.
And it was to 100 high school girls.
And the topic was resilience.
And she thought that my story would really resonate with these young girls.
And I got so many beautiful notes from them.
And one girl in particular wrote to me that she had um been having trouble getting out of bed and that her parents had sent her to all kinds of therapists and psychiatrists and given her all sorts of medicine and that after you know, she heard my ted talk.
She was in the audience.
She said that that was the best advice she'd ever gotten was that you can't think your way out of bed.
You have to actually physically get out of bed.
There were days where you really couldn't get out of bed.
Absolutely.
I mean in the beginning especially, you know the even.
You know, just getting up and going to the kitchen and getting a cup of coffee was a huge victory.
Or having a shower, or making a phone call, or seeing a friend or you know, those things were such huge victories and in the beginning um, you know, my skin was literally gray and my hair was falling out in chunks.
I mean it was, it was really, really bad and um, you know, Putting together those little victories made me know that I could do the next one.
I could do the next one, that I would get up and I could get up.
And they're all little steps along the way, and you just sort of put those together.
And that's all that I really could do.
In the beginning, though, did you just want to die?
Yes.
And did you ask yourself many times, why didn't you also die?
Yes.
I still have those feelings.
I still, this last Christmas, I had those feelings of I just want to die and certainly the feeling of why didn't I die, you know?
And I wanted.
I wanted to die so many times you know just to even just to be with them.
You know the doctors.
They would come in and I would tell them the story and they would start to cry.
You know, nurses would come in and hear me wailing in the night and read me poems and they would start to cry.
And it got to the point where I was on the floor to the doctor and I was just I literally got on my hands and knees and held him by the ankles and begged him to let me out.
And he wouldn't.
They wouldn't.
And... Because they were afraid that you would kill yourself.
Yes.
But I think that we don't get to choose when we die.
You know, I don't fully understand what happens when we go to the other side.
So I don't have that knowledge.
And so I don't want to do anything to mess that up, you know, quite frankly.
So...
I know it's painful, but can you take us back to that morning when you awaken and you smell the smoke?
I think of the image of you of looking and seeing your neighbors see you.
Yes.
Your neighbors are watching you in this terrifying moment on the scaffolding, trying to get through the smoke and the flames.
Yeah. saying my children are in there, my children are in there.
Yeah, you've got to come and help me.
And then, you know, finally the fire department was coming, and so I climbed back down and then I was trying to get into the second floor window, which is where my bedroom was, and then they just basically took me off the roof with the ladders and I just kept thinking they were going to come walking out, you know.
I just kept thinking... Or thinking they were in the backyard...
Yeah, that my mom and dad had saved them.
I mean, my dad was the director of safety and security for Brown Foreman Distillers, which means basically the head of Jack Daniels and Old Forester and all of these gigantic distilleries all through the world.
You know, and his job, part of his job was actually training firefighters, you know?
And so, I mean, if anybody knew what to do in a fire, it was my dad.
So, back to putting yourself back together.
I'm sure that for a long time, and maybe even still now, nobody knew what to say.
Nobody knew... Yeah.
What can you say?
Right, right.
So then you went to stay with your friend Kate.
Tell me how you got to your friend Kate.
Well, I went from the acute care unit, and they sent me to, like, a rehab facility in Tennessee.
I mean, nobody knew what to do, you know?
And this was a rehab.
I mean, this was, you know.
There's no rehab for grief.
Yeah, there's no rehab for grief.
There really isn't.
There's no rehab for grief.
And then I called Kate and I said, you have got to come get me.
You've got to come get me.
And she did.
When she moved to Arkansas to stay with her friend Kate, Madonna went to the University of Arkansas Psychiatric Research Institute.
She says it was there where doctors finally explained her grief in a way that made sense.
On Super Bowl Sunday, Dr Smith came in from Arkansas and he was the head of the Psychiatric Research Institute.
And he basically said, OK, she's not crazy.
Everyone's treating her like she's been struck mentally ill.
Because you keep going from one mental institution to the next.
Yeah.
She's not crazy.
Right.
So he said, yeah, no, she's not crazy.
She's sad.
She's really sad.
And he explained what had happened to me in a way that no one else could or had.
And that basically the that mother child bond, you know, is so huge.
And it's like having you know.
Nerves sort of that are, I guess, called Vega nerves, but they're emotional.
Yeah.
There is a vibrational connection.
Exactly.
And that is real.
Yes.
That there's an energetic, magnetic, vibrational connection.
And that mine got cut.
Yeah.
And it got cut in three places.
And then it got cut between me and my mom and me and my dad.
Yeah.
Which is different.
Which is a different thing, of course.
But that, you know, just that I was just basically a great big raw nerve.
And, you know, and that they could help me, you know, and they did.
And that in time, that raw nerve would get skin.
Get a little layer of skin.
Little layer of skin.
And another layer.
And another layer.
Yes.
And I could live.
I could live in the world.
Yeah.
That's right.
But, boy, that is such a profound description.
I'm sure that helped you a lot.
It completely changed everything.
Yeah.
It changed everything.
It gave me hope. and where I had none.
I mean, I just thought like, okay, this is it.
You know, like, I mean, talk about wanting to die.
I think that's so good for everyone else too, because that's what it feels like when you've been.
It feels like you've been severed and you have this enormous loss that you can't even explain to yourself.
And you're so, the fact that you are raw and in time, you'll get a little bit of skin and a little bit of skin.
I just think that's a beautiful analogy.
Yeah, that you have now lived and proven to be true for yourself.
Yes, and I do have skin.
I have some skin, and a lot more than I thought I would have.
And does the development of the skin come from time or being surrounded by people who show you love in ways that they can?
I think it definitely comes with both of those two things.
I think it comes with definitely the love.
You know, letting other people love me has been a huge part of this journey for me.
And letting other people take care of me has been a big part.
And certainly time.
Time doesn't heal anything, I don't think.
I think you just sort of learn how to live with it a little bit better.
And then I don't numb myself.
So that was the big thing that dr smith told me was that if i don't start acting out like shooting heroin, okay.
Or if i don't start, you know, drinking around the clock or like those are the kind of things that don't help at all and those are the kind of things that don't allow for that skin to heal, like you have to actually feel the feelings okay, Which is the most painful.
Yes.
But it's so much more in my experience.
It's so much more painful to try and stay outside of that pain.
Yeah.
And the latest thing for me has been about sort of figuring out that I can't outrun my pain.
And you know, like just going as fast as I can or doing as much as I can, like that almost like in a manic way.
You know I can't do that.
It doesn't, it doesn't work.
Were you religious before?
Not really.
I wouldn't say I'm terribly religious now.
I mean, I have a deep spiritual life that's important to me.
And I certainly believe that there is a great big power out there bigger than me, you know in every possible way.
Did you say, God, why did you do this to me?
Oh, yeah, a lot, a lot.
And the minister who did the funeral was really helpful in that.
And he said, you know, that God is not a puppeteer.
And God cried first.
And God cried first, yeah, exactly.
And that really helped me so much.
I mean.
The God I believe in is not a punishing God, you know, and would never, ever hurt children or do anything in any way to make people miserable, make people sick, give war.
I mean, that's not my God.
My God is full of love, period.
And being a loving, caring, amazing God in my life that leads me and teaches me and carries me.
Yeah.
And so you get out of bed by taking the action to move yourself out of bed.
It's not something you can think your way through.
That's what you say in the TED talk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, we can't think ourselves into right action, right?
We have to do right action.
We have to try.
So was it a decision before?
I'm going to get out of bed.
I think I just did.
I mean, I think I don't remember, you know, I don't remember making the decision.
Do you think one day I'm going to have to get out of bed?
One day I'm going to have to get out of bed?
I think I was, you know, in my case, I want to say that I was too afraid to lay in bed.
You know, that's part of it.
Because of where my brain goes.
Yeah.
You know, even now sometimes, you know, I can lay in bed and I can wake up in the morning and be in the fire.
You know, that happens a lot.
Really still?
Oh, yeah.
And, you know, why didn't I do this?
And why didn't I go there?
And, you know, why did that happen?
Why didn't I save them?
That's part of the journey.
Absolutely.
I mean, that's part of the grieving process.
It's part of the whole thing is knowing that, you know... i'm just trying to do the best i can and and you know live my life the best i can for my girls and my mom and dad and for them to be proud of me have you felt this i i feel this with maya angelou going and uh i actually felt it when my dog sophie died and you know i i really it's hard to explain but Obviously, I miss the physicality of Maya, but I can feel the spirit of her, and I can sometimes speak and hear her voice in me.
I can...
I mean, I know that that is real.
That is real.
And I know you've had a similar experience with your daughters.
Yours was really profound.
Yes.
I mean, for the longest time, I thought I was nuts.
You know, I really thought I was bonkers.
And that, I mean, I didn't really care very much.
But I thought they were, you know, talking to me.
There was one experience in particular where I was cleaning the bathroom and I started crying.
And I started crying in a way that was so intense.
It was what I call a level 10 cry.
It literally feels like blood is coming from my eyes.
It feels so intense.
I don't know, so much pain.
And so I looked in the mirror and I saw myself crying like this.
And I'd never really seen myself crying like this, you know?
And the pain was so severe.
And I remember thinking, wow, that woman is in a lot of pain.
Like it was almost like I was stepped out.
Wow.
And then Sarah came to me, and Lily and Grace and everybody was there.
And Sarah talked to me and she told me not to be afraid, that there was nothing to be afraid of and that love was the most important thing in the world and that dreams are, you know, more real than this life.
And...
And I... Came to you in that you, like, physically saw them?
We were talking.
We were talking to each other, yeah, in the mirror.
And I called Kate and I screamed, this is real.
It is real.
It is real.
You know, I'm not making this up.
They're really talking to me, you know?
And it was so mind-blowing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so ever since then, I believe it, you know.
Can you feel them?
Oh, yeah.
As soon as I sat down, my chest felt really full.
And I don't feel, you know, there's, I just, I don't, I feel super present and in my body.
And that's a big thing.
And that's a big part of not being bitter, you know, is that that's the only way I've found is, you know, by not by being fully present, and in my body, that's when I feel them the most.
Really?
And I don't know why.
You know, I don't know why but boy, when I feel bitter or I get really angry, then I can't feel my children, you know.
So in telling your story now, In telling your story, what do you hope to offer those of us who can hear know?
Honestly, I don't really know why I'm supposed to tell my story.
You know I've gotten phone calls out of the blue from people struggling with the death of a brother or mother.
You know children and you know, and I talked to them and tell them it's going to be okay, you're going to be all right.
I talked to somebody right after the fire who had been introduced to me through a friend and he had lost his parents and his sister in a horrible plane crash and had watched them die.
And he said, just hold on.
You're going to be all right.
Just hold on.
And it's terrible.
I called Wyatt Webb, who you know and I love, and I've been to him, see him so many times.
And I said, Wyatt, what do I do?
Tell me what to do.
And he said, just find someone to love you.
Just find people to love you.
That's all you can do.
And so if this helps other people, then that makes me feel like I've done something.
Are you surprised at all the ways love shows up?
It's pretty remarkable.
It's pretty remarkable.
Love shows up in so many ways.
I think you know the other part.
For me that's so important is I wish I knew now what I wish I knew then what I know now.
Like?
Like when I was so worried about, you know, having them eat organic food all the time.
Or when I was so worried about them getting into the right school.
Or when I thought that that deadline was so important at work and I stayed and worked late.
Or, you know, the time I missed a recital that Grace did, you know, because I was traveling.
I wish I knew, like, how important all the... The real, being present.
Yes, being present.
And just, and then all that stuff, organic food doesn't matter.
I mean, it really doesn't.
Like the fact that they can eat food is good enough, you know?
I mean yes, of course all those things are good, but I'm just saying that I wished you know, I had known that like we could have moved to Arkansas and gotten a little house and been just, I just didn't know.
After a six-month investigation, a Connecticut state's attorney determined the fire that killed Madonna Badger's family was quote most likely caused by a bag of fireplace ashes that were left in the mudroom.
Madonna disagrees with that conclusion.
She says those ashes were cool and carefully swept from the fireplace.
Madonna is now determined to continue the investigation, saying there is dignity and honor in knowing the truth.
First of all, do you believe that it started because of the ashes?
No, it didn't.
The fire absolutely did not start because of the ashes.
You do not believe that?
I know it didn't.
You know it didn't.
I was the one that said it was the ashes.
It was the ashes because I was afraid, you know, because I blamed myself.
Because I was hysterical on the roof, you know, trying to get the firemen to get into my house as quickly as they could.
Because you had climbed up on the scaffolding.
On the third floor.
On the third floor.
Where was your bedroom?
On the second floor?
Yes.
Yeah.
So when you look at the front of the house, my bedroom was basically the front of the house on the left-hand side.
Photo left.
And then you see the turret.
And in the one turret at the top is where Gracie's room was.
And then you would go through there into the other two rooms.
And so I went up.
I came out and went directly up and tried to put my head in.
And I couldn't get my head into the window.
I couldn't physically because of the fire was so hot and the smoke was so black.
And so I kept trying to get into the window, trying to get into the window, but I couldn't.
And I was screaming, you know, bloody murder.
And then the firemen came.
On December 26th, one day after the fire city officials ordered that the charred remains of Madonna's home be demolished.
According to a police report, the decision was made after a Stanford housing official found it to be quote in imminent danger of collapse unquote.
In January 2013, Madonna filed a lawsuit against the city of Stanford and two of its officials, claiming their actions were unlawful and destroyed any possibility of a thorough investigation.
So tell me, what do you think happened?
You obviously have your beliefs about what happened and the reason why that house was taken down in 24 hours.
I think when I came out of my window it went pop pop, pop and there were these giant electrical pops that went on on the main power lines bright, white.
I saw sparks coming out where my meter is, at the back of my house, okay?
So something really major happened, major electrical, okay, happened.
And I don't know why, I don't know what happened, but I think someone does.
I think there's got to be someone out there that knows what happened, that saw what had happened.
And my prayer is that they're going to come forth and tell the truth.
I mean, three people, three children, five people died.
And they took the house and they threw it away.
And they tried to blame me.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And of course you know, I've heard you say and also write, you know that even if someone comes forward, it will never bring your family back.
Of course.
Of course that.
But what will it do?
It'll stop other people from getting hurt.
Whatever has happened, it could happen to someone else because it happened to me.
And I want to make sure it never happens to anybody else.
So just seeking the information.
Exactly.
Just seeking, in earnest, seeking the information.
What is the truth?
What is the truth?
What is the truth?
Because there's peace in the truth.
Yeah.
That's where the peace is, I think.
And you know I mean I heard somebody say the other day you know I don't have to like what I have to accept.
I just have to accept it.
And I love that, you know, and that for me is the truth.
I don't like what's happened to me at all.
Of course I don't.
I mean, but living in acceptance to the best of my ability does make me feel a lot better.
About a year after the fire, Madonna began dating real estate broker Bill Duke.
A longtime friend, Bill was one of the first people by her hospital bed that Christmas morning.
Madonna and Bill got married this past summer in a small ceremony in Brooklyn.
May I just say what a gift you are to the world, because you've shown us what it means to stay open, because all the ways you could have shut down, you could have become bitter, you could have become enraged and, you know, angry at the world and turned that on yourself and turned it on other people, but instead you stayed open.
The fact that you were able to love again is what is so amazing.
Would you have imagined that you could have even been here?
And I ask the question not just to be a voyeur, but for everybody who's in some place of despair, who's watching us and hearing us, to know that you know, a couple of years later, several years later, that your heart can go on and on.
Yeah.
No, I think, I mean, I've known Bill since I was 19.
So I've known him for I'm going to be 50 tomorrow, as you know, and um, and so that's a long time to know someone off and on, you know, not close and bill is a very spiritual man and a very kind man, very loving man, and he's a yoga teacher and a hospice worker and i mean he, he walks the walk and he's a you know he, he's my rock.
I'm so blessed.
Yeah, How did you know you were ready to say yes.
I didn't know.
I just figured I could have called it off if I had to.
Bill, you heard that, right?
You didn't know.
Were you scared?
Were you scared to love again?
Because one of the things I found over the years and I talked to people on the Oprah show who were grieving And I remember Phil said this people feel they have to grieve for the amount of time that they actually loved, that they don't allow themselves permission to go forward and to do exactly what you're trying to do and that is to love again.
Yeah, no, I never, I mean, I don't, I never stopped loving.
I mean, the love I have for my girls and for my parents is so strong.
That love has kept me alive.
And the love that I've gotten from Kate and from Jess and all these amazing people in my life, then my heart never closed down.
So I don't understand... that idea.
I don't understand the idea of shutting down the love, because then I would be too scared that I couldn't feel my kids.
Were you afraid to allow yourself to feel any sense of happiness or joy again?
Yes.
Were you?
Yes.
And I ask that question because when I read the description of what was happening that night in your home, Your mom had made apple pies.
Not just pies.
Your mom had made her famous apple pies.
Her famous apple pies and her sugar cookies.
And your father had just come back from Saks Fifth Avenue where he was Santa Claus.
Where he was Santa.
Your three girls are getting their iPhones under the tree.
It's 3.30 in the morning when you're done wrapping all the packages under the tree.
I mean, that is the picture that we all want.
A picture of joy and happiness that we all want and in an instant that is gone.
Yes.
So, would that make you afraid to feel that again?
Well, I can tell you I don't celebrate Christmas like that anymore.
I mean, you know I went to Thailand and um, you know you find another way bill, and i did yeah, some volunteering work and um, you know, there are times that i'm i get behind the school bus and i see little girls in the window, and there are times, you know, i go to the park or a restaurant or i hear some little girl call mommy and uh, You know, yeah.
That makes me want to shut down.
It makes me want to stay inside my house, you know.
And I just try to twist it around, you know, and see Lily there or see Sarah and Grace there.
See love there, you know.
That's all I can really do.
Put one foot in front of the other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Take the action.
Breathe.
Breathe.
Take the action.
Move on through.
Call a friend, you know.
Do all those things.
Madonna's had a very successful career in advertising, running her own agency called Badger & Winters.
In 2013, Madonna returned to work.
She says it helps give her life purpose.
Does it feel good to be working?
Does work help?
It does help.
It does help a lot.
And, you know, I think my parents were both really hard workers, really, really hardworking people.
And I do love working hard, and I love what I do.
And...
You know, our biggest client right now is Avon, you know?
Yes.
Which has over six million representatives around the world.
Six million women.
Women, I was going to say, not just...
Women reps.
Yes.
So for me, it gives me purpose.
And it makes me feel good about what I'm doing.
One of the things that I loved in your Vogue article, you wrote that you go wherever the light is.
So I'm wondering, where is the light for you today?
What gives you hope?
I mean, you know, certainly, you know, I don't know.
I don't know that I'm going to see my children, that I'm going to be with them again and that we're going to be together.
And I'm going to do everything I can to make them proud of me while I'm here.
You ended the TED Talk with some wisdom from your friend Kate.
She gave you about the outpouring of love and support, where she'd said something about all of the people who were offering you pieces of themselves, that it felt like pieces of God, and asked the question of you do you think we're all pieces of god, do you?
Yes, i do.
Oh, i definitely do.
You know the um, even in the craziest rehab places that they sent me, i would get a little piece of wisdom.
You know, somebody would give me something, somebody would share with me something.
You know um, this girl came up to me and read me something from the bible that said we all suffer.
And some of us suffer worse than others, just so that that person can tell us what to do.
You know when that person suffers.
And so yeah, I think that the the pieces of that, we're all these connected beings.
You know that we are all connected, we all come from the same source, you know.
So we all have the same energy inside of us.
We are all spiritual beings.
And i really having a human experience yes, having a human experience, and i really believe that I don't understand yet why we have to have a physical experience.
No one's really quite been able to answer that one for me, but I know that we're spiritual beings having a physical experience.
I know I'm a spiritual being.
I know we all are.
And because of that, for me, we're all connected.
We're all just pieces of this beautiful universe together.
It's an amazing experience. revelation for me personally that my children have really taught me.
Loving them was when they were born, and knowing them, you know, made me want to be the very best person I could be, the most spiritual being I could be.
What is the best way, you think, for you and those watching, to honor Lily and Grace and Sarah and your parents, Pauline and Lomer?
I think you know living a life of love.
You know, knowing that love is the most powerful, incredible force in the entire universe.
And that there's so much we can do when we take care of each other and are patient toward one another and love each other.
And that love is forever.
And, you know, hate is...
Hate doesn't take you to all of the beautiful places that love does.
It's a power unlike any other.
And it doesn't die.
It doesn't go anywhere.
I mean, the love that I had for my children and they have for me, it's still right here right now.
And that's super powerful.
And now as you get ready to turn 50, I hope you find real happiness.
Thank you.
Again.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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