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I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time.
Taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Janine Roth has been teaching the principles of her groundbreaking bestseller, Women, Food and God for over 30 years.
Janine was one of the first to help us all see beyond the term food addict.
She believes the level of our spiritual well -being can be discovered in how, when and what we eat.
Thank you for joining us for Super Soul.
I'm thrilled. I think you're one of the first people who actually years ago made the connection that our relationship to food is an exact microcosm of our relationship to life itself.
Yeah. That's amazing.
And so that connection has a as profound an impact when you first discovered it as it does today.
Because I think most people can't even understand what that is, women, food and God.
It's also men too because I've shared the book with men.
Yeah. Tell us what you mean.
Yes. Well, what I mean is that if you follow one thing all the way through to the end, you'll find everything.
Yeah. And so the subtitle of Women, Food and God is an unexpected path to almost everything.
So how you eat and what you believe about food, particularly when you're not hungry.
And if you deprive or judge or shame yourself in your relationship with food and ask yourself about it and just track it all the way back, it will lead you to everything.
It will. Yeah. The whole.
Yeah. It will lead you to the whole and to the whole that you're trying to fill to fill yourself up and to the whole that you've been missing and to the whole.
That's right. To the whole, whole, to the whole, whole, to all of it.
Yeah. To all of it.
So in that sense, food is a spiritual issue.
I'm so glad you said that because if you examine your relationship with food and you find what's keeping you from discovering that whole, whole, that actually is the essence of spirituality.
What you find is that your essence, your true nature, what many people call God, but it's right there and food will take you right there.
Yeah. It's all on the plate.
It's all on the plate.
So in Women, Food and God, you write this about the reason why we binge.
You say compulsive eating is an attempt to avoid the absence of love, of comfort, of knowing what to do in the process of resisting this emptiness and the act of turning away from our feelings of trying and trying again to lose the same 20, 50, 80 pounds.
We ignore what could utterly transform us, but when we welcome what we most want to avoid, we evoke that in us that is not a story that is not caught in the past, not some old image of ourselves.
We evoke divinity itself.
That's what you mean when you say God exists on our plates.
Yes. That's exactly what I mean.
I was just going to say, I couldn't have said that better myself, but I didn't say that.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. And how did you come to know this?
You didn't come to know this just because you were sitting around thoughtfully, pensively writing stuff.
You've been on the journey.
No, I came to know it because my own issues with food were so hellish.
I really do feel like I lived in a hell world for many, many years and to the point where I wanted to kill myself, and I was in fact suicidal, I was a couple of days away from killing myself.
Wow. I had gone to a bookstore to discover the best way to do this.
This was back in the late seventies, early eighties, and I discovered a book called Fat is a Feminist Issue by Susie Orbach, and it was the first time, that was the moment where I realized my relationship with food was the way that I was trying to speak to myself.
And I knew that shame and deprivation and guilt and punishment never led anybody to change.
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You recently shared a three -word directive in this article you wrote to stop the feelings of shame after overeating.
What are they? Be unspeakably kind.
Ooh. Be unspeakably kind to yourself.
To yourself and to that which turns to food.
Because my newest understanding is that when people say I, I have a food problem, I don't actually feel like it's the I -I that has a food problem.
It's not who they really know themselves to be.
It's not their truth.
It's not their true nature.
It's some part of themselves, some sort of frozen unnamed and very unwelcome part of themselves go away.
I don't want to hear from you.
And because I call those ghost children.
I was going to say, was that one of the ghost children?
Those are the ghost children because they haunt you.
And what they do because we never listen to them, they turn to food.
Okay. So let's explain what that means.
Yes, very good. So everybody has as a part of their psyche what you call these ghost children.
I do. And they're parts of ourselves that got developed in the first couple of years of our lives.
Yes. Parts of ourselves that got developed but are also, I've heard it described this way, that constant tape that plays over and over in our hands.
That's right. That is the story that we tell ourselves about ourselves.
That's right. Yes. And we each usually have.
That ultimately means I'm not good enough.
That's right. I'm not lovable.
And I'm unworthy. Ultimately.
That's right. Yeah.
I'm unlovable and I'm unworthy.
But we each have sort of different takes on that theme.
It's just thought and belief patterns really based on the stories we tell ourselves.
And so in order to antidote that, it takes naming and welcoming the unloved parts of ourselves.
And that's a hard thing to do.
So that is what we need to begin to do to end this battle, the struggle with food, the misuse of food forever.
In 2008, Justice Jeanine Roth was putting the finishing touches on her seminal work, Women, Food and God.
She was dealt a devastating blow.
Jeanine and her husband Matt were among the thousands of people who invested their life savings with New York financier Bernie Madoff.
After Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in prison for operating a $65 billion Ponzi scheme, considered the largest financial fraud in U .S.
history. Jeanine and Matt lost everything.
How do you, when you've had your life savings and everything that you've planned in your whole life is sort of like wiped from under you.
What prayer do you say, first you cry?
I cried. I had very close friends.
The first one I called said to me, nothing of value has been lost.
And I said to her, this is not the time to be spiritual.
That's good. That's good.
Yes, we're only spiritual when we're happy and things are going well.
We know we have a lot.
This is not the time to be spiritual.
Forget it. But then I realized, but you know what, Oprah?
What? That was one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life.
How so? And you know why?
Because when you, I lost every, we lost everything.
We lost, we lost all of our money with Madoff, all of it.
And 30 years of life savings, gone.
All of it. Got a phone call.
Jeanine, are you sitting down?
I thought my friend was going to tell me she had just had a bad hair day.
And instead she said Madoff is in handcuffs.
And I realized, we've now lost everything.
Had you suspected anything before?
Nothing. Because the friend who got us involved with it had been invested for 30 years.
And they lost everything too.
And he got all of his other friends into it out of the generosity of his heart because he really thought it was it.
Come on, this guy's so great.
But when you lose everything, because I had to focus on what I had, not what I didn't have, because there was no way of getting through the night with that kind of terror of having lost everything.
Talk about shame and blame.
Yes, because you blame yourself for not seeing, for not knowing.
How could anybody not know?
And so and then I realized if I was going to live, if I was going to sleep, if I was going to exist, I had to bring my mind back from the from the terror and start focusing on what was good.
And I had to be fierce about it.
There was no choice about it because otherwise I would careen off into such grief and terror and shame.
And it was not a way to live.
I mean, it took me a couple of days to come to this.
Good friends who basically said to me, focus on what you have enough of, not what you've just lost.
And so I pick up a cup.
I have a cup. I have water.
I have arms. I have legs.
I have breath. I have a husband I love.
I still have a roof over my head.
And and you know what?
The most amazing thing happened within three to four days, maybe a week, I was happier than I had been in years.
When you had lost everything.
Yes, because when you start seeing what you have, not what you don't have, what's good, not what what's wrong.
Okay. But so tell me, what did you still have?
Because it's one thing if you say, I lost everything, but my house was paid for.
And I had. So you know you're going to have your home, right?
I didn't. My house was not paid for.
Okay. I had the house, but which was mortgaged after the hilt.
Plus a home equity line of credit that we owed on big mortgage, car sweaters.
And that was it on the physical level.
So when you get the phone call, do you first think, how are we going to live?
Or you first think we're doomed?
Do you first think, Oh yes, doomed, doomed, completely doomed, doomed, doomed, doomed.
I call my husband who's in Antarctica at the time.
And I said, hi, honey, nobody died, but we did lose all of our money.
We start crying, both of us.
He says, sweetheart, we're going to be okay.
But I had confidence in myself after a week that that my mind could start going to the brink of terror and I could bring it back.
So no matter what horrible thing happened ever for the rest of my life, I saw that if I was conscious about noticing what I did have, not noticing what I didn't have, noticing what was good, that changed my mood every day.
And that's when it really becomes a spiritual principle and practice.
And practice. That's right.
That's the main practice.
When the principle becomes more than a principle, but becomes a practice.
That's right. And it changed me.
It changed me because I got happier and happier.
He couldn't steal really what was important the most and, and you know, exactly what your friend said.
Yes. Nothing of value has been lost.
Yes. That's right. Yeah.
Don't go talking that spirituality stuffed me.
Yes. Yes. So in essence, he couldn't steal, I'll let you finish this.
He couldn't steal what was good.
He couldn't steal, you know, the goodness, the everyday goodness, the sheer magnificence of trees, of earth, of the fact that I still had a body and I still had a partner that I love.
Well, you're one of the blessed ones, because I know a lot of people who went through serious depression over that.
Yes. And why wouldn't you?
Yes. Yeah. But if you don't have a spiritual practice, I was just going to say, you don't have a spiritual practice.
If you don't have a spiritual practice, you're lost.
But I think if you don't have a spiritual practice, you're lost.
You're lost. You're lost.
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So the same spiritual practice that got you through that terrible time is what you also applied to being in your body, having an intention to heal.
That's right. And using that for food.
Yes. Right. Right. Because a lot of it is in women, food, and God.
And so we're talking about different kinds of principles that are also included in that book, but I've just made them more specific.
Okay. So you've come up with some ways now of not just theorizing about what it means to have food be a spiritual relationship.
There are five steps.
One of them is landing in your body.
What does that mean?
Yes. It's coming out of your mind and into your body.
So most of us live in our minds.
Of course. I mean, I love my mind.
It is sharp and smart and sparky and feisty and, I mean, great mind.
And so, I mean, and to come down here, I mean, so uninteresting.
Yeah. And so I think it's important because, number one, when you feed, when you eat, you're feeding this.
You're not feeding this.
I mean, you are, of course, ultimately.
But you're feeding your body.
And I think for a long time, I didn't get that.
That you were feeding your body.
Yeah. I mean, I was eating for comfort because I was sad, because I was lonely, because I was grieving, because I was ashamed, because I felt unloved.
But I didn't quite get that the food going in the mouth was not about loneliness or comfort or sweetness or whatever, or because I felt empty, but that I was feeding this.
So that's one thing.
The other thing is just gratitude for having a body at all.
Just shearled these arms and these legs and this heart and this liver have schlepped me, have taken me from place to place for so many years.
And what have I done to it?
I have basically just said, I'm lonely.
Here, eat this. There was an appreciation.
It wasn't thank you, body.
I think about that a lot, particularly.
I think you think about it, certainly, the more mature you get and thoughtful about yourself and your life.
Like, wow, my heart has been pumping for 62 years.
Wow! I know! And when you go to the doctor and you do, wow, I go, wow, you beautiful heart, you.
Yes! Come on, girl.
Yes, that's pretty amazing.
It is amazing and we don't consider it.
Wherever you are in your life right now, that your heart has been doing that.
Without you asking.
For thousands of times a day without you asking.
And the third reason I'm very into this out of your mind and into your body is that your body is the only place where you can really know presence.
It's what Eckhart calls the power of now.
Yes. Because it's now.
Your breath is only now.
The sensations in your arms, in your legs, they're happening now.
Yeah, I get that. So, they're the gateway to everything we say we want, which is to be in touch with presence itself or essence or true nature.
This body is the gateway to that.
So, you know, you feel, oh, my feet are on the ground and you feel the point of contact your feet are making with the earth.
That's it. And then you feel the earth and it's like, whoa, the earth.
Pretty darn good. Then you feel the point of contact your hands are making with each other or wherever your hands happen to be.
And then where your back is touching.
And so, you just become aware of the presence of your body.
Yeah. Yeah. That's it.
And you are with it.
And then you're with it.
And if you want to.
Okay. So, what's that going to do for me, Janine?
I'm now fully present in my body and now what?
Okay. Well, what it will help you not do is eat when you're not hungry.
Okay. If you're in your body, it's hard to want to put food in there when it doesn't want it.
So, you start a relationship with you and with you, who you take yourself to be, which is sort of the voice and your body.
And you say, am I hungry?
No. Okay. Then what do I want and what does this body want right now?
So, you're asking yourself what your body wants.
To help control the urge to binge and repair the spiritual connection between what you eat and what you believe, Janine Roth suggests these five steps.
First, land in your body.
Second step, name, love, and question what Janine calls your ghost children.
Next, set your intention to heal.
Number four, notice what's good.
And finally, identify foods that work for you.
Okay. Name and love the ghost children.
Name, love, welcome them.
It's like, okay, fine.
I'm run by that part of me that thinks, and this is what we usually call I, this is what I don't want people to do, is call it I.
I have this feeling that I'm unworthy or I'm unlovable or I'm always feeling left out.
First, I ask my students, stop using I when you say I, because it's not you, you, it's left out, Lulu feels left out.
Then you welcome that.
And you say basically to that part, okay, sweetheart.
All right, honey. Here you are.
And once you welcome them and you, they hear from you, they relax.
Okay. So what you're saying is that there are parts of yourself that are unhealed that keep telling yourself the same old nasty story.
Nasty, really nasty story.
Whether it's not getting enough or not being enough, the story is the same.
It comes down to unworthiness.
And it has happened because somewhere in your life, you didn't get what you needed.
That's right. And there were these feelings of unworthiness.
And so you continue to overeat compulsively, emotionally, because of those unmet needs that you are trying to fulfill.
That is what you're saying.
Absolutely. That's exactly what I'm saying.
And no matter what kind of food eating program you go on, you know, I'm counting points now, which allow me accountability.
But I am also still practicing a level of consciousness of, I like this being in your body, for mine is like, what do I really want?
So I will say one of the things that the Weight Watchers program has afforded me, accountability with the points, but I only eat what I want.
Yes, right. And I only eat when I want it.
And I stop when I'm full.
And sometimes I stop short of the points.
And so I like got points to spare.
Because darn it, if I'm not full already.
Right. Yeah. Yes, that's right.
And so that's sort of, you know, my old slash new eating guidelines.
Yes. Those were part of that.
Eat what your body wants, eat when you're hungry.
Stop when you're fat enough, and have fun.
And have fun. And then you have to set your intention to heal, you say.
Yes. And that's where, once you, let's say it's never enough Nelly that we're talking about or I'm unworthy, you know, or whoever feels unworthy.
Well, isn't it the case now?
This is, you know, being accountable to points has really sort of helped me stop and think, what do I really want?
And do I want to choose that over this?
Yes. But I remember many times just going unconscious.
I literally remember standing in the pantry, just, you know, I'm eating almonds because, you know, almonds are supposed to be healthy for you, but not a bucket of them.
So I'm saying, though, a lot of people can't name whatever it is, whatever is the story they're telling themselves, because they're kind of unconsciously doing it.
Yes. But if you ask yourself, so if you're eating unconsciously, chances are there's a ghost child there.
That's what I'm saying.
If it's me that's eating a bucket of almonds, then I can pretty much bet that something got triggered in me that I wasn't aware of when it got triggered.
Yeah. So she or some part of you want something and it might just want a moment to sit down and just find out what got triggered.
What happened there?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
What happened? I've been in that.
Yeah. Okay. So set your intention to heal means knowing that whenever that thing gets triggered, hey, hey, just having an aha, whenever that thing gets triggered, that's really a holy moment for you.
That's right. That's a holy moment that you get to, you get yet another chance.
Yes, exactly. Yes, that is the holy moment.
That's why it's a doorway.
That's why food is the doorway because when you want to eat and you're not hungry, you have the chance yet another chance to say, oh, if my purpose of really when you know what your intention is, which is to show up in this life while you're still here on earth, that's the other thing that's showing
up in the body does landing in your body.
You get to show up on earth while you're still here.
You don't get to miss your life.
Yeah. That's our number one intention.
And if you're eating, my thing is ice cream.
If I'm eating ice cream when I'm not hungry, I'm not doing that.
Okay. That's why it's helpful to remind myself that my intention is to show up completely.
Well, this friend of mine sent me this delicious ice cream.
So I was, I sent him a note to thank him over the holiday saying thank you for saying ice cream.
And he goes, but he goes, I didn't know I could eat the whole carton.
I eat it slowly, intentionally, and deliberately.
And I enjoy every spoonful until I no longer feel that sensation of pleasure.
Yes. Fabulous. Because when you eat compulsively or emotionally, you're missing the taste of food.
Yeah. I would agree with that.
You're doing it to assuage the loneliness or whatever got triggered, but you're doing it for that.
No, you're doing it to fill the hole.
Yes. To fill that hole.
Okay. The next step I love so much.
Yes. Taking the goodness all around.
We miss so much goodness by just walking past it, by not taking time every single day to see the magnificence of what's around us.
Yeah. That's another way of letting yourself have pleasure and deliciousness.
Taking the goodness all around.
Yeah. And do it at least four or five times a day.
And just for maybe 10 seconds, 15 seconds, just like that, notice what's good.
Often we look through loops of lack and or eyes of lack.
Well, this is what that's so when I read this, preparing for you coming on the show.
I thought, wow, that's really good because you know, I'm a big proponent of The Gratitude Journal.
Yes. And I must say I've been gratitude for so long that it's like gratitude, five things every day that I'm thankful for.
Yeah, let me put them on the list.
Right. I said, I'm going to try, I'm going to still do the gratitude thing in the evening as a sort of my spiritual ritual, but I'm going to try at least three times a day just to stop.
And in my own present state, think about what's going right because you say so many people, you're saying people think all the time about what's going wrong.
Let's look at what's not going wrong.
So I rephrased it because I don't want the word wrong in my energetic space.
So I say I'm going to stop at least three times during the day and think about what's going right.
Exponentially, your day gets better.
Yes. It really does.
Without a doubt. It is better than the five count at the end of the day.
I know. Because you're doing it all day long.
That's right. Exactly.
And so it's you're establishing what I call a ground of goodness five times a day.
You just realize there are so many more things going right that are going wrong.
That's right. Because the brain has a chance, which all the neuroscientists tell us that the bad is like Velcro and the good is like Teflon.
And unless you actually focus on the good consistently, intensely, frequently, your brain can't lay down new loops.
But anyway, that's just a fancy way of saying, yes, stop many times a day and look at what's good.
Yes. Yeah. Because people remember losing $50 more than they remember finding.
That's right. Yes. Yes.
You think I lost, I lost, I lost for $50.
Yes. Right. Amazing though.
Yes. Did you find that for yourself that when you stop during the day and think about what's going right?
I find that for myself.
I do that every day.
I do it when I wake up.
I do it three or four times during the day.
Do it before I go to sleep.
And the second I do that, my whole energy shifts.
There's an energy shift.
That's what I do. It gets better because you have now stopped and had your little gratitude moment.
Yes. Right. Right in the middle of a day.
Right. And your heart feels open again.
I mean, I can get very crunched down.
Yeah. And then if I notice what's good, then I feel open again.
And I identify foods that work for you because when you're paying attention, you will certainly...
Now, this is interesting.
I read that you don't believe that we're addicted to sugars or carbs.
I feel like that whole thing with addiction has gotten...
And food has made people feel bad about what they eat, has put moral judgments on what they eat, has made them feel uptight and has led to a lot of unnecessary shame.
You don't feel that if you eat more sugar, I know for sure if I start eating sugar, then that's going to make me want something savory and salty.
And then it sort of triggers a thing physiologically.
So I'm not saying that physiological reactions don't happen.
But what I am saying is that where I feel like that has become the thing of, well, if I only stop eating sugar and if I stop eating this and if I stop doing that, my whole eating problem will clear up.
It does not. Right.
And that's what I'm saying, that what happens is we're addicted to the thought before we turn to food.
You know, those stories you were talking about.
We've had those billions of times and we are addicted to telling those stories like dogs with bones.
I get that. That's what we're addicted to.
We are walking, talking expressions of our deepest convictions.
Everybody gets that, right?
We are walking, talking expressions of our deepest convictions.
Everything we believe about love, about fear, about transformation and God is revealed in how, when, and what we eat.
Yes. So in that moment, what I'm saying is feelings can't be felt.
I'm never going to get to the truth of who I am.
I might as well eat.
This is the best this life has to offer me.
That's what I'm talking about.
I get what you're talking about.
In that moment, all of those beliefs are revealed in me choosing to eat that instead of believing that it's possible to show up.
It's possible to feel the feelings.
They're not going to kill me.
Fear isn't going to kill us.
Grief is not going to kill us.
It might feel like it is at a certain time, but feelings don't destroy us.
Absolutely. Okay. Answer this question.
I feel the presence of God when?
When I'm outside in nature.
I experience love when?
I'm with my husband when I'm being my true self.
I am living my purpose when?
I am speaking the truth when I am being kind.
When I'm showing up completely with all I've got.
I like that one too.
Okay. My life force is most fulfilled when?
When I mean, we are talking like major heavy hitters here.
When I am teaching, when I'm writing, when I am in my heart.
My hope for my legacy is?
That people will take what I've said and what I've written, passed it on to their children, and be unspeakably kind to themselves, to nature.
The most difficult choice I've had to make to fulfill my destiny is?
Not having children.
I decided not to have children because I felt like I couldn't give myself fully to my work and be a really good mother.
Me too. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. One would suffer.
Yes, one would suffer.
Yeah, there are people for whom it doesn't, but I knew for me, one would suffer.
Same with me. I just knew that was going to happen.
I knew that was going to happen.
Okay, here's a good one.
What is the word that best describes who you are and why you are here?
Word or words? You don't have to limit it to one.
Well, I feel like I made some kind of contract before I came to earth.
I don't know if this is true or not, that I was going to go through a lot of stuff that wasn't really easy to go through and be able to transform it or somehow work with it so that I could teach other people, so I could be a spokesperson for change, and I could reach people from personal experience,
so that I could let people know that no matter what they've gone through, including losing all their money, they could come out being magnificent, pretty much.
And I really believe that.
I believe that no matter what, and if you live in food hell, I'll lose all your money.
There's a way of working with it.
No situation is unworkable.
What inspires you? Well, nature always inspires me.
I just keep coming back to nature.
People who tell the truth inspire me.
What is the lesson, Miss Janine, that took you the longest to learn?
I can tell you what is still taking me the longest to learn, which is unconditionally loving myself, cherishing myself, welcoming myself.
I think that's why I'm so good at talking about it, because I've had a pretty intense inner critic, and I've gone through a lot of judgment and shame.
I keep learning this over and over and over again, and so I think I'm still learning it.
What do you think is the clearest, cleanest, most open path to your authentic self?
You mean besides your relationship with food?
Because that's a big path.
It is. I feel like that's a really big path, and I feel like most women don't value that enough.
I just don't feel like most women do.
They think it's just a matter of willpower, and if I can just get it together, then everything's going to be okay.
But it's the path that's right in front of them that is the clearest path.
I mean, that's what I believe, the path that's right in front of you.
That's the path. That's the path.
And so, whatever that is, and for women who are struggling or suffering with their relationship with food, that's the path.
And for me, that was the path.
That's the path to your most authentic self.
That's the path to the whole.
Yeah. That's the path to the whole.
It has been a delight to talk to you and see you again.
So lovely. It's been a joy.
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