I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present.
Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.
Brian Grazer is the visionary producer behind some of the greatest films and television shows of our time, from Splash to A Beautiful Mind, to Apollo 13, to his latest breakout hit, Empire.
His work has been nominated for 43 Academy Awards and 149 Emmys.
Brian says he was curious from an early age and, as the oldest of three growing up in Sherman Oaks California, he struggled in school but says he was endlessly fascinated by the world around him.
He's written a book, and it's called A Curious Mind, The Secret to a Bigger Life.
Brian says pursuing what he calls curiosity conversations has been key to his happiness and success.
We all know that you're an Academy Award winning producer behind all these phenomenal films that we have come to love.
You've produced television and films, and now you're adding author.
Was that a little scary to add author to your resume?
Well, it was scary.
First, I thought it might be easy.
And then it got to the point where it was really hard.
Turn it into tiny stories that people are going to want to read and that have the message of curiosity.
This is a hard thing to do.
And I have to say that when I first started reading it, I was like, what's this going to be?
It's so esoteric, curiosity.
But I would have to say I had a mind shift.
I had a mind shift, which I'm sure that's what you're after, right?
I had a mind shift while reading it because I was like, how can the claim that you have on the book A Curious Mind, The Secret of a Bigger Life, how can that make me have a bigger life?
And I never thought of myself as a curious person.
Wow.
I think your view is an extremely curious person.
You know why?
Because there's a point in the book where you talk about how curiosity isn't named, what it really is.
And the fact that I sat and talked to people every day.
I just thought I was sitting talking to people every day because I was interested in them.
I didn't think that was particularly a curious thing I was doing, you know?
But I was interested in having a human connection, which is what you say curiosity absolutely brings.
Is a human connection.
Yes.
And you know, I think when we have our very first and best date in life, when that date is great and you have that perfect connection, that's when it's really working.
And I think you've been able to bring that to your everyday life.
And I'm trying to bring that to my everyday life because I do feel like it does expand my life.
Yes, it's so much a part of my everyday life.
I never thought of it as a special thing or curiosity.
And you know, on this show, Super Soul Sunday, we talk about all things spiritual.
Would you say that curiosity is your spiritual practice?
Yes, because when I'm in the zone, it does get me into the place of truth within the person I'm connecting with.
And ultimately, that's the most satisfying feeling is to feel the sense of truth, whatever that is.
Because that's what spirituality really is is looking for the truth and the essence of whatever a thing or a person is.
Yeah, it's not rationalized or prognosticated.
It's a real, but the deepest emotional connection.
Mm-hmm.
Now one of the things that struck me in A Curious Mind.
You say that the secret to life is not in the answers but in the questions.
And when I first read that, I paused a minute because I've spent my whole life asking questions.
And I'm always seeking the answers.
I always think it's about the answer.
Why do you say that the questions are the most important?
I'll tell you why.
No, because...
I don't know before I meet somebody the best question.
Not until I meet them can the better questions get formed.
So I'll start with something that I think is a good question, but it's this sort of biochemical moment that happens, like I was saying on your first date, or even in this moment connecting with you, that my better questions are going to evolve.
And that's why curiosity is really the key to authentic connection, because your interest in the other person.
Because of your interest in the other person.
So this is what I love about your life.
You dedicate the book to Grandma Sonia Schwartz.
Yeah.
Because starting when I was a boy, she treated every question I asked as valuable.
She taught me to think of myself as curious, a gift that has served me every day of my life.
Yeah.
So you weren't a great student.
No.
Didn't even read well.
I mean, back in the day, you would have been called dyslexic, probably.
Yes, definitely, definitely.
And your mother was really upset with you because you were failing the third grade.
Exactly.
Which is reason to be concerned.
Yes, I was totally, totally failing the third grade.
Yes.
Failing the third grade.
But your grandmother wasn't worried.
My grandmother wasn't worried.
She liked all the questions I asked and would always give me an answer.
And she'd always say, Brian, you're going to be special.
You're going to use this curiosity.
You're going to be a special kid.
And I often was looking at my report card while she's saying you're going to be special.
My report card said all F's and D's.
And I'm going, what is she... Does she know...
What's going on here?
I'm getting all F's and she's telling me I'm going to be special.
But she just had this sustained belief in me and validated me for questions and asking questions and curiosity.
Did she use the word curiosity?
Did she say it's your curiosity?
She did.
Mostly it was just you're going to be special because of your questions.
You ask good questions.
Let's start from the beginning.
I love the fact that you're in this little apartment.
In this little apartment, yeah.
The windows open.
Yeah.
And you hear these guys outside.
Yeah.
Talking.
Yeah.
And you literally go over, and you were eavesdropping.
I know, I love the fact you called it curious.
I totally, yeah.
You called it curious, but you really were eavesdropping.
But I was really eavesdropping.
You were really eavesdropping.
And what did you hear?
Okay, so i just graduated college, like within the week, and i thought, just like millions of other kids that are graduating college, i thought what am i gonna do now?
I just graduated?
I'm completely lost.
Oh, i need a job.
What did you major?
In law, i majored no, in psychology.
But i got accepted to law school.
But I was positive I'd never get through law school.
And even more positive, if I got through, I'd never pass the bar.
So I would just, you know, a normal kid kind of terrified and confused, what do I do?
But then I hear these two graduate students of law school talking outside my window and i overheard one of them say i just had the cushiest job of all time.
I thought cushy, that means the easiest job, yeah.
And they said yeah.
At warner brothers legal affairs, a man named peter connect and i i listened to the conversation why it's easy, so great, they gave you a company car.
I immediately call information.
Get a hold of warner brothers legal affairs, get peter connect on the phone.
I got the job that day And all of a sudden I had this job where I was just to deliver papers Warner Brothers papers.
So my first one was basically to warn Beatty, and I was to leave it with a receptionist.
And I said, no, no, I can't leave the papers with anybody.
I have to hand them to Mr. Beatty directly.
You said that instinctively?
Yeah, I said that instinctively.
OK.
Because what?
You wanted to meet Warren Beatty?
I really wanted to meet Warren Beatty.
And I thought, well, he was so accomplished.
And you know, he's an Adonis.
But at the same time, he's gigantically talented.
And I thought, why not?
I'm not hurting anybody.
If he's available to meet me, you know, he's likely to say yes.
And he did say yes.
And that was the beginning.
So you get this job and then you create this rule that you're not going to see, you're not going to drop, just drop off the papers that you say to the assistants I have to meet the person directly.
Yes, I have to hand it to them directly.
And everybody just believed that.
Everyone just believed, accepted it.
This is what I think is amazing.
Somebody really important vacated a a big office, big office, and you said can i just move in there?
Yes, okay.
So what happened is i had this teeny little office that peter connect, my boss, head of the legal department.
Yeah, then his boss, who was head of business affairs, got fired, who had a giant office like the size of a handball, of course, as big as this room.
Yeah, and i said to my boss can i use This other office?
And he said, sure, no problem.
That giant office was right outside the three executives that ran Warner Brothers.
And I literally just sort of hung outside my door and nearby and they'd say why don't you just come in and sit on my couch?
And this is how you're going to learn what show business is about.
Is that when you decided, I like this movie business, and maybe I'll be a...
Maybe I'll be a producer.
Maybe, but... Did you even know what a producer was?
I didn't know what a producer was.
I didn't know what anything was.
But sitting in that office near the three executives, I learned the language.
Yes.
And learning the language, it's like going to another country.
If you learn the language, you can do things and it becomes demystified.
You understand where the leverage lies.
So when I was in that office...
I started this practice of meeting people that were in show business every day, including Lou Wasserman.
The Lou Wasserman.
The Lou Wasserman, who was the patriarch of kind of modern entertainment.
Yeah.
And before Lou Wasserman, I've sort of successfully met different individuals.
But when I met him, as I got off the elevator on the 15th floor, I saw him coming at me.
And he gave me that look like, don't waste my time, kid.
And usually I could get through this, navigate through it, but I could tell he was.
I couldn't with him.
And I started out with my opening sentence, and he just said, look, you don't have much to say.
Wait here a second.
And he... This is Lou Wasserman.
This is Lou Wasserman, who basically created Universal Pictures and MCA.
Yeah.
And he says, wait a second, kid.
He won't even let me go in the office.
He meets me at the lobby as I get off the elevator.
And he goes into his office, gets a big legal tab and a number two pencil.
And he says, hold this.
He says, put the pencil to the paper and it's worth more than it is at separate parts.
And I thought, what's he mean?
And he said, okay, now get out of here.
So... What's he mean?
Yeah, I wasn't sure what he meant because I was also really nervous and... What's he mean by that?
Yeah.
He means your time is limited in this space.
That's what he means.
He means my time is limited in that space for sure and get back on that elevator.
Yeah.
With my number two pencil.
But what he meant was, like, you have to own your own ideas.
You don't have any... Because I had no money.
I really had kind of a fake job, you know, this little law clerk job.
And he said, you don't know anybody.
You're not the nephew or cousin of some movie star.
You're a nice enough kid, but you don't have any connections.
You don't have the money to buy a book to burn into a movie.
So the only thing you've got a chance at is, like, creating out of nothing an idea.
And I thought well wow, that's actually kind of democratized, because anyone can put the pencil on the paper.
And even though I never thought of myself as a writer, I could just dig stuff out of my imagination.
So is that where Splash came from?
So Splash was birthed out of that moment that I had with Lew Wasserman kicking me out of his office.
Wow.
How is it that you've come to understand that curiosity can make us more successful, make us more connected, make us more adventurous, make us all the things that you talk about in A Curious Mind?
Well, good question.
I mean, I guess the best way I would say it is that it's done that for my life and there's evidence that it worked, because I grew up in this tiny little middle-class neighborhood and I didn't leave it.
I went to college.
I was 22 miles away, but literally...
I didn't know very much, but I did use this curiosity to meet new people in subjects that I would have never learned anything about.
And by meeting these new people, It's given life to movies and television shows I've done.
It's helped me in my personal life with my children.
It's been a powerful force in my life.
You say it's a spark for creativity and inspiration, a way of motivating yourself, a tool for independence and self-confidence as the key to storytelling as a form of courage.
Yes, definitely a form of courage.
How?
Well because well, I mean, a lot of my movies deal with characters that are emotionally disabled or handicapped but that have will or drive.
It's just a reflection of me really, that i think i'm insecure and i go to parties and i feel insecure and but i'm able to overcome it often because i feel as though um, i do have confidence because i've learned about some subjects that other people don't know about.
If I'm in a conversation, I can talk about architecture or food or design or fashion, and they might not be able to.
And these, the curiosity conversations that I had as a little boy or out of college, have well-rounded my life.
And nobody judges those conversations.
Well, what's interesting is you say that curiosity can actually make us more powerful.
How is that so?
Curiosity gives you power, you say.
Yes, definitely.
Not the kind of power that comes from yelling and being aggressive.
It's a quiet kind of power. a cumulative power, power for real people.
It's power for people who don't have superpowers.
So why is that so?
Wow.
I think you can come to the table with people that are experts in other things and feel I always felt like I had as much to offer as they did.
Even though I wasn't expert in science, or even though I wasn't a superstar like Russell Crowe or Tom Hanks or Denzel Washington, I felt like I might have the secret to some subject that they don't have.
And I can, you know, kind of stand toe to toe because I met Jonas Salk.
And what was it like to meet him?
And why did I, you know, I came to the table with other things that I just created myself.
We can all meet some person.
They can meet the pharmacist and talk about how that works.
You talk about how we can all create our own curiosity conversations.
Yes.
And I think it's a great way to look at it.
Like everybody that you meet is a possibility for a curiosity conversation.
When you're at your kid's soccer match, you're sitting there with the people instead of just having a.
You know.
A fake conversation.
A fake conversation.
Have a real conversation.
Yeah, you really talk.
When you're at the checkout line at the grocery store, when you're sitting next to somebody on a plane or a train.
Yeah, exactly.
You want to make a difference.
If you feel like you're making a difference, that's adding to your purpose on the planet, or your purpose to your child, or purpose to a friend.
And I get more confidence out of it and I feel more worthwhile out of it.
Brian Grazer and Ron Howard have been friends since 1979 after Brian approached Ron on the Paramount Pictures lot where they both worked.
By then, Brian had already pitched his idea for the movie Splash to several studios and had no love.
Undeterred by all the rejections, Brian eventually convinced Ron to direct the heartwarming love story about a mermaid.
In 1984, Splash would go on to gross nearly $70 million at the box office.
This is what's interesting.
You say over and over in A Curious Mind that Another acronym for Hollywood should be no no no no, no.
Oh, for sure.
Still no, no.
The Hollywood sign should be the no sign because you get told no all the time.
The no, no, no, no, no sign.
That's hilarious.
It should just be that.
So you have to develop a thick skin or be the kind of person who's used to being told no and ready to recharge or revamp a no.
Yes, you have to revamp a no.
Because when you're walking around with a script about a mermaid, at first everybody said are you out of your mind?
Yeah, I think even in the book, nearly a thousand people said no.
It was about a seven-year period of no many times a day.
A mermaid, no.
But it was always like a nasty no.
You know, it wasn't just no without judgment.
It was no like, what a stupid idea.
Yeah.
It was really, and I guess on some levels, if they thought of it only as a mermaid, it might have been.
But then you started to think about it differently.
Yeah.
You write in A Curious Mind that you shifted the way you told the story after you'd been told no so long.
But even Ron Howard said no to you when you wanted to do it.
Even Ron Howard.
Even little Ron Howard said no.
Tell us about the moment you're in your office and you see Ron Howard.
Outside the door.
So basically I had this process where at that time in my life I was trying to meet a new person every day, but not outside the business, but within the business.
And I thought, God, I have to meet a new person today.
I haven't checked someone off the list.
I look out my window, I'm on the Paramount lot, and I see Ron Howard, who's happy days, Richie.
Because this is the time where you talk in the book, I think it's on page...
I think it's on page 58 where you say you turned it into a discipline.
You've now turned curiosity into a discipline and a habit.
So on a regular basis, you have decided I'm going to meet this many people a week.
I'm going to talk to this many people.
That's amazing.
Yes, I turned it into a discipline like it was religion to me.
But it was a discipline.
It was your spiritual practice.
It was my spiritual practice.
It really was.
I didn't feel fulfilled.
I could not feel fulfilled unless I met that new person every day.
Wow.
I just didn't feel like my life's work was done.
So that was your goal to meet a new person?
I wasn't succeeding in show business, but even when I am succeeding in certain show business, if I'm not doing it, I don't feel that I'm...
I've brought meaning to my life.
Unless you're meeting a new person.
Unless I'm meeting a new person that's sharing their perspective on their life and I get to enter the secret of their process in some way.
Amazing.
Now that's curious.
That's instinctively curious.
That's an instinctive.
Yeah, I think everyone's got it.
But I think I worked at it more than others.
But I think everyone can.
But with Ron, I looked out the window.
I said, I'm going to meet Ron Howard.
And then I call him up.
He's really shy.
And then I meet with him.
And he said, I want to be a movie director.
But there was no evidence he could be a real movie director.
Because we knew him as Opie.
Opie Taylor and Richie Cunningham.
Richie Cunningham.
But he had this, honestly, I always tell, he had this aura around him.
When he walked into my office, it was almost like the sun was behind him.
And he had this aura of goodness.
And I really felt like this was something of value and that I needed.
Okay, so he was just another curiosity too, right?
He was just another curiosity person.
You said, come meet with me.
I said come meet with me please.
And he did yeah, he didn't want to, but he did okay.
So he wanted to be a director and you wanted to be a producer exactly, and you all decided to form this company.
Yeah, and we decided there were two basically unemployed guys that wanted to be something that other than we, what we were, and we just sort of joined up because we believed in each other.
We believe we each had something that we couldn't quite state to one another that had value.
Tell me this how your curiosity yeah, informed you creating which is now a phenomenon on television Empire.
Oh, wow.
How did that come to be?
I saw the pilot back in August, and I said to Lee, it's going to be a phenomenon.
I know.
You were a huge early-on supporter.
Yeah, I knew it.
I felt it.
It is a phenomenon.
It's a phenomenon because it addresses an audience that's been very unserviced.
Yes.
But not only addresses the African-American audience, but the thing that is phenomenal about it is that it is expanded to include everybody.
So how does sitting in this newfound empire of success feel to you?
I have to say it's cooler and better than any other success I've had.
Really?
Why?
Well, because it was explosive.
I mean, I'll tell you why.
It was immediate and explosive.
And I think there's like beyond that.
It has this sort of awe factor.
Like every week three crazy things are gonna happen with the characters.
Like what's gonna happen?
It's got that it's.
It's sort of cool and it's got great actors that are kind of oscar-nominated caliber actors.
That feels good.
How has curiosity informed your film work?
Well, curiosity has informed my film work for several reasons.
The most effective films are the ones that ignite emotion in others.
Of course.
And you know that only too well.
So you can have these ideas, and you can have empathy, which is the most important thing.
But if you can't convert that empathy to images that ignite the empathy and emotion, you're not really communicating.
So it's helped me because I meet new people all the time that show me different perspectives on different subjects.
So I... You use that information.
You sort of like curate curiosity, actually.
You curate.
So this is what's so fascinating to me about your... How many... Do you know the number?
I started to add them all up.
The people I met?
Yeah, of the curiosity conversations you've had.
I probably had 800 or 900.
I think I only list like 500, but there's probably 800 or 900.
I got a call from you, like in 2007.
Exactly.
I remember.
And it's like, oh my god, Brian Grazer's calling me.
Brian Grazer's calling me.
And I remember saying, well, I didn't want to inconvenience you.
You were telling me that you were doing these conversations.
Yes.
And I didn't know what you were talking about, but I thought, well, maybe he wants to do a movie.
I don't know.
So I go and have, I think I met you for breakfast.
You did.
You say in the book that, I don't remember, I came to breakfast in my pajamas.
You came in your pajamas.
You had a robe and a pajamas on.
I came to breakfast in my pajamas?
Yeah.
And we had, like, a later breakfast.
What was I thinking?
I think you just, I don't know maybe felt relaxed and you know, and you were probably super busy and you just thought I'm going to do it.
Wow, okay.
But I didn't know that this was a part of a thing that you had been doing for years and years.
Because, as I'm reading the book, I'm thinking.
I remember he called me and Gosh.
I hope I had something good to say.
Great stuff.
Well, thank you.
The most fascinating to me, however, is Chief Darrell Gates.
He was a police chief, one of the more important police chiefs and renowned police chiefs in America, but he was also somewhat polarizing because of his level of power in the city of Los Angeles.
And I thought I'd really like to meet him.
So you had called up the police chief of Los Angeles that you tracked him for, what, a year almost?
For about a year.
Because some of these meetings take a year.
You just call up interesting people.
I call interesting people.
Nobel laureates, police chiefs, CIA directors, Barack Obama, Princess Di.
But this was Daryl Gates of the L.A.
Police Department.
It was pre-Rodney King.
As the chief of the Los Angeles Police Department for 14 years, Daryl Gates was notorious for his hardline law enforcement tactics, such as his pioneering use of SWAT teams.
In 1991, Gates faced strong criticism after Rodney King was beaten by four members of his department.
He resigned in the wake of the LA riots that followed the officer's acquittal.
So what makes you curious about the police chief?
Well, I was curious about power.
How is power integral to his mindset?
And you're doing these interviews, these curiosity conversations, not because you're interested in making a movie or writing a book.
You just are interested.
I'm just interested.
So you start like a year before Rodney King.
Yes.
And your lunch date is set for the day the verdict comes out for the four officers.
Isn't that crazy?
It's crazy.
Crazy.
And he didn't cancel the lunch.
That's what I thought was the craziest.
I know.
That's the craziest, that he didn't cancel the lunch.
I thought this guy's of course going to cancel because there were riots 2000 buildings caught on fire the day before, the night before, and he doesn't cancel the meeting.
I can't believe it.
And you go up and there he is.
Daryl Gates up.
Yeah.
And he's...
Calm as could be.
Like a movie character, just straight ahead.
Straight, not nervous, just calm.
And then he says, ask me a few questions.
I ask him some questions.
Why does he think he's in a conversation with you?
I think he also thought that I might do a movie about him or something.
And during that lunch, didn't somebody walk in during that lunch and say, you're on TV?
Yeah.
You know, a high-ranking lieutenant came in with really you know frightful said.
You know chief, you're on TV right now.
And literally pointed to a monitor where the city council was saying, we're voting him out.
And he folded his arms like this rather arrogantly and said, not a chance.
I'm never leaving this office.
Whoa.
And six weeks later, he was gone.
He was a civilian.
But how did that meeting, that curiosity conversation with Daryl Gates change you or inform you?
I guess I thought it gave me further evidence that power can also anesthetize you.
Because I felt like he was beyond blinded by it.
He was kind of anesthetized.
And I later produced a TV series called 24.
And that's about a wish fulfillment character that kind of breaks through red tape.
Because you use all that information.
Yeah, I used all that information that I got from Daryl Gates to inform my perspective on...
These other, you know, these other movies or television shows.
I love what you said when you left the office.
I was looking for the exact quote.
What Daryl Gates did for me, he completely disrupted my point of view, which is what curiosity does.
It definitely does because you have to enter someone else's world of expertise.
So you have to always live in some, you know have to be in.
You know get outside your comfort zone.
And this is what I love about.
I think this is the essence of The Curious Mind, The Secret to Bigger Life.
I think when you say we are all trapped in our own way of thinking, trapped in our own way of relating to people, we get so used to seeing the world our way that we come to think that the world is the way we see it.
For someone who makes his living finding and telling stories on movie and TV screens, that kind of parochialism can be dangerous.
It's also boring.
But I think it's what also happens to everybody else.
You get so used to seeing the world from your point of view you think that your point of view is it.
You think that your point of view is the definitive point of view.
Is the definitive point of view.
And it's just not.
I mean, not until you meet people that are outside your comfort zone do you realize that.
I love what you write when you say you're born curious and no matter how much battering your curiosity has taken, it's standing by, ready to be awakened.
So how can we leave this Sunday morning with a more awakened curiosity?
You take nothing for granted.
Take nothing?
Nothing for granted.
Don't take your health for granted.
Don't take the people around you for granted.
Yeah.
Why do you think we're all here?
What is the purpose of the human experience, do you think?
Well, ultimately, I think love is a very powerful force.
And so it's enjoining, you know, creating love with family or friends or other human beings.
It's a socialized world.
But I think we're kind of trying to understand the truth of why we're here.
You know, is there a God?
Is there... What happens if we... All those big questions, you know?
Do you have the answer?
I don't have the answer, but I...
I do believe in God.
Do I?
How do you define it, him, her, it?
I don't know what God looks like.
You know whether God is a man or a woman, but I do believe there's God as a governing force that's someplace out there, that in some way, when you're connected to the source, you know when you're really.
Your conscience is connecting to something other than just your self-interest.
Absolutely.
And so I think, you know, I look at it, I created my own little litmus test.
I told my best friend the other day, like I said, you believe in god.
We talked about that and i said i know that if i have a final moment in a plane that's going down, i know what i'm doing.
I'm praying to god.
How do you stay in the light in this polarized world of darkness and light?
God, i didn't anticipate that question.
How do you stay um?
I think probably.
You have to probably just act within, within the sphere of your reach.
If you can treat everybody that you're in contact with as an equal and with love, I guess I believe in that butterfly effect.
It works its way out to other people.
What's the calling you, Brian Grazer, came here to fulfill?
I would like people to sort of embrace the power that they all have within them and become more curious.
It will bring them a bigger life.
I do think that would be a calling.
I like to make movies that have redemption.
Not every.
There's not always the big triumph at the end of the movie, but there's usually a normal person that overcomes a fear that they had, an insecurity they had, an emotional injury they had, and they get through that, to that next step that gives them a sense of a greater sense of purpose and confidence.
Yeah, and so your purpose then is to let people know redemption is possible.
I totally believe that redemption is possible and and strive for.
Whether it's Empire or my next movie, it has to have redemption or I won't try to make it.
Well, thank you for this conversation.
Wow, thank you.
Thank you.
Oh, we did it, I think.
We did.
Okay.
We did.
I hope it was okay.
It was great.
All right, good, good, good.
I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.
Thank you for listening.
