Hey TED Talks Daily listeners, I'm Elise Hu.
Today we have an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective handpicked by us for you.
Many think of bullying as something that only happens when they're in school, but that's not always the case.
This week we're taking a look at workplace bullying with an episode of Fixable.
Social psychologist Amy Cutty will explain how to spot workplace bullies and more importantly how and why we should all talk about them.
Whatever you're dealing with at work, a bully, a bad boss, burnout, Fixable is there to help.
And it's back for a new season.
Each week, business leaders Ann Morris and Frances Fry share real fixes to some of the most common workplace problems.
And if you're listening and have your own workplace issue, you can send in your questions by emailing fixable at ted.com.
Find Fixable wherever you get your podcasts and learn more about the TED Audio Collective at audiocollective.ted.com.
Now on to the episode. Frances, today we have the pleasure and privilege of speaking with our friend and colleague Amy Cutty.
Amy is one of these people that she's known around the world and if you ever walk down a street with her, strangers will stop her and tell her the influence she has had on their lives.
It's really quite extraordinary.
Yeah, she has this great rock star force for good energy around her and you really see it in public.
I've witnessed those same interactions.
Well, let's give the audience some context for the few people walking the planet who may not know her.
Amy is a social psychologist and bestselling author whose work often focuses on bringing large, messy challenges back within our own locus of control.
Allowing us to perform better as leaders, as colleagues, even just as humans moving through a complicated world.
Many people will know Amy for her mind, body research on the benefits of power posings.
She gave a TED Talk on this a few years ago.
It's now one of the most viewed TED Talks of all time, 70 million views and counting.
You know, Amy and I worked together at Harvard and so I know firsthand how incredible she is.
Her first book, Presence, it changed my life.
I couldn't be more excited for her next one, which is coming out literally any day now.
It might even be out by the time you're listening to this.
Yes, I'm super excited and this is what we want to talk with her about today.
So the book is called Bullies, Bystanders and Brave Hearts.
It's about workplace bullying, what it looks like, how it progresses, how to intervene.
We had such a great conversation with Amy that we're actually going to make this into a two-part episode.
So this one will be the nitty-gritty of knowing how to spot bullying and next week we're going to get into how to stop it.
It is so important. A master fixer on workplace bullying.
I'm excited to get into it.
I'm Ann Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.
And I'm Frances Fry. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School and I'm Ann's wife.
And this is Fixable from the TED Audio Collective.
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is Fixable, and good solutions are usually just a single, brave conversation away.
Amy, Cuddy, welcome to Fixable.
Thank you. So let's get into it.
Okay. And I want to start with some definitions because I think this is a really critical part of this conversation.
What is workplace bullying?
Well, let me start by saying that the fundamental thing that separates bullying from other negative forms of interpersonal behavior is that bullying requires more than one person.
A lone bully is impotent.
And when you look at other forms of really bad behavior, which I'm not saying are less bad, they can be enacted by a single person.
Bullying requires other people to join and to turn on its target.
So I am actually going to read the definition if that's okay.
You can use it where you want to.
But I do think it's so important to get the definition right.
And for us to have a shared language to talk about this, because I think there's people fear being labeled bullies.
When they're not bullies, they're afraid to say something is bullying because it feels so loaded.
And so we do need to get it right.
So after looking at decades of research on bullying, interviewing hundreds of targets of bullying, having my own personal experience with it, seeing it repeat over and over again, this is the definition that I use.
Bullying is a profound, intentional, targeted, serial, and escalating attack on a person's social and professional integrity and viability that's carried out by multiple people.
Bullying involves a power differential that favors the bully, but that power differential need not be formal or structural and doesn't have to exist when the bullying begins.
Either way, the gap grows over time.
While bullying tends to be instigated by one person, it is not a single assault perpetrated by only one person.
It's an ongoing campaign to shame, humiliate, discredit, demoralize, punish, and socially kill or permanently exclude the target.
Wow. Oh. I'm just letting that land.
I'm letting that land. I know it's a lot.
It's a lot. Every word is heavy.
Yeah. Let me ask you this.
For the more sensitive souls out there like me, how do I know if my skin is too thin or if I'm really in the early stages of a bullying scenario?
Because I feel those words and I can see, oh, in retrospect, this was obviously bullying, but in those early stages of that distinction between criticism and early stage bullying, I can imagine second guessing myself in those moments.
Most everyone who feels that they're being bullied is actually being bullied.
Got it. It is that clear.
It's that different from other bad experiences that they've had.
But I think that one way to check in with yourself and your interpretation of your own experience is to look at some of the organizational or cultural or environmental conditions that lead to bullying.
Are you in an organization where this might be more likely to happen?
And understanding the dynamic with that person that seems to be the primary bully is important.
I mean, primary bullies share a lot of common characteristics.
Bullies tend to be people who never have enough status and become threatened when someone who they saw as lower ranking than them in the relevant hierarchy, suddenly gains more respect.
Status. Status both inside and outside that community with an external audience, for example.
That is what sort of triggers the bully.
That's what we call crossing the line of resentment.
And so a lot of targets, they know it's when I, for example, won that National Award in Architecture, or it's when I had that duty at work rewarded with an employee recognition.
I mean, whatever it is. I won sales leader of the year.
Exactly. It awards recognitions.
Things like that are often what I call the critical incident that sort of sets it off.
And so also know that this is more likely to occur in organizations that are very hierarchical, where scarcity mindset is common.
So where people are kind of encouraged to be competitive in an unhealthy way.
So the more one person gets, the less you get.
That's the mindset as opposed to sort of celebrating each other's victories.
Got it. More likely to occur in places where sort of prestige and status are the main currencies.
Right. So it's very common in law firms, in hospitals, in academia.
And do bullies think they're bullying?
What do they think they're doing in these scenarios?
No, they don't. And they're not losing sleep at night.
They rationalize their behavior.
Either they believe that they've been somehow cheated unfairly out of something they deserved.
So they have lower status than they earned.
Right. They should have gotten more.
Yeah. Or they believe that they're actually like moral crusaders.
And they feel that you are casting aspersions if you call them a bully.
And one of the problems for targets is that they do tend to be seen as do-gooders.
And they don't want to hurt other people.
They don't want to get somebody fired.
And they are reluctant to report what's happening.
And by the time they do, whoever they're reporting to is likely to turn it around and sort of say, maybe you're the problem.
And there's a term for this.
Darvo, D-A-R-V-O, deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender.
So what happens often with HR, because HR isn't really seeing what's happening.
They're not in that department or unit or situation.
They're just getting this sort of sketch six months later is that they believe that it's some kind of personality conflict.
And probably you're the problem.
Because the bullies are more likely, and there's good evidence of that, to have established relationships with HR in advance of these things being reported.
Like protective relationship.
Exactly. You mentioned law firms, hospitals.
Can you give us a sense of what you believe to be the scale of the problem right now?
About half of people will be the target of a bully at some point in their lives.
But I think even maybe more important, almost everyone will witness it.
And witnessing it causes moral injury.
Just to observe it happening unchecked alone causes pain.
And also normalizes it, and we can go on and on from there.
But it's remarkably common.
And yes, it has become more pervasive.
We see entertainers. We see politicians.
We see leaders bullying people very publicly with impunity.
And even somebody was telling me the other day, she said, don't you think even like reality TV does this?
Reality shows are almost all about these ridiculous escalating conflicts over nothing.
We're used to seeing people fight and attack each other as entertainment.
That's what you're waiting for.
And people will post the popcorn eating meme like, I'm here for this.
It's fun to watch someone be destroyed.
So I think it's not just social media.
There's so many ways in which media have worsened the problem.
Right. Right. You have talked about and written about bullying often following a pattern.
So talk to us about the pattern and why it's so stable.
So what I think I found most surprising, upsetting, and also validating as I've been working on this book and interviewing targets is how predictable and stable the anatomy and physics of bullying are across situations.
It doesn't matter if you are working in the dairy aisle at a small grocery store in a small town or if you're a celebrity or if you're a nurse, it works the same way.
So what tends to happen is that as we already discussed, you have a person who has some power and views the world as fundamentally hostile.
That's one of the characteristics that bullies share.
They have a scarcity mindset.
They believe the world is fundamentally hostile.
They tend to be overplaced relative to their actual abilities, not always, but they tend to be and they have this deep, deep hunger for status and recognition.
So what tends to happen is the target has some kind of success or recognition.
People notice the target for doing something well.
That target then gains respect or status not just inside the organization but also with people outside the organization.
So I'm going to use the example of the target who worked in a dairy aisle of a grocery store because this is a real story.
He was beloved not just at the story.
He'd worked there for 30 years but also by people just in the community who came in and they wanted to say hi to him.
When a new manager came into town, she was very threatened by how much people liked him.
And so for her, people coming into the store and saying, hey, can I see, and I'll use the name Michael, can I see Michael?
We just want to say hi to him.
That really bothered her.
He had crossed the line of resentment.
And then she started to, and this is what happens next, to do little tests to figure out if she could get away with bullying him.
And that's what bullies do first.
And often those tests fail and they move on to another target.
And so this is something that I want people to notice.
These are little slights, like little comments in front of other people to humiliate the target.
Those are what I call bully tests.
They fail and people are like, nah, bro, that's not cool.
You can't do that. When that happens, they're like fine.
They stop, they move on to the next person.
And then in Michael's case, what were those tests?
Well, he was very fastidious about his job.
He did his job perfectly.
And he was a rule follower.
And there was a mask mandate by this grocery store chain and he followed it and she did not like that and she saw him as a do-gooder and as a problem for her because he was following rules that she wasn't following.
He was not giving her a hard time about it, but she would start to make fun of him in team meetings.
Got it. And other people just let it go.
It escalated. But those were the early things that happened, which hurt him, but he didn't see what was coming next.
So the bully essentially tests to find out socially if they can get away with it.
And if nobody checks them, then they move on to the next stage.
Yeah. If no one checks them, they move on to the next stage.
If people do check them, they move on to the next target.
Got it. Got it. So they're going to move on in one direction or the other.
Either way. Bullies are going to bully.
Exactly. Okay. Yeah. So that's a bully test.
And I want people to, as they learn about how it unfolds, see all of the opportunities where they might have been able to step in and do something so small to stop it from escalating, to see those bully tests and just say, really, just to say, that's not cool.
That sometimes is enough for somebody who the bully admires to say that is really powerful.
Okay. So I'm a bully. I've tested, you know, whether I can get away with it.
I haven't been checked.
So I'm moving on. What happens next?
Well, the bully uses the fear of a threat to the community in order to rally supporters.
But the threat that they use that they propose is what I call a decoy threat.
It's not a real threat. I mean, we saw this use in, like, a lot of political strategists have used decoy threats in place of what they actually felt threatened by, which was, you know, black people or women, right?
And they reveal what the actual threat was.
And it was the actual threat still wasn't a real threat.
It was their own perception of a threat.
The decoy threat is something that's socially acceptable, right?
So the decoy threat might be, I'm going to switch to another case, a woman who was bullied by a famous tech bully in the kind of Gamergate era, one of the early victims of the misogynistic bullying of women and tech in the early 2000s.
She was beloved. She got computer science classes, but she also had a blog that people loved, and she was just a very warm, friendly person and very smart.
And she did moderate comments on her blog, and she was very open about that.
She's like, this is my home, and I won't allow people to be cruel to each other.
She was gaining so much popularity that this bully who really, who was just very threatened by her, he used that to say that she was a threat to a free and open internet.
And that, at that time, she said, isn't just like kicking a puppy, it's like bagging up all the puppies in the kittens in the world and throwing them into the water and drowning them.
Like it was the worst thing to be a threat to a free and open internet at that time was seen by people in tech as the worst thing you could do.
The truth was that he was deeply misogynistic and very threatened by her popularity and just her good-naturedness.
And so that's the decoy threat.
And so people will fall in line behind that.
And then he'll use examples that support his claim that she's a threat to a free and open internet even though she really isn't.
So he's already distorting the facts.
Does he know he's distorting the facts?
Yes. I believe most do, at least at some level.
I believe some really know what they're doing.
I do believe that he knew he was distorting the facts, but also had convinced himself that it was the right thing to do.
So they aren't fully aware of what they perceive to be the threat to them, which is women in tech.
But they know it enough to know that that threat is not going to allow them to enlist people, that they need something else to get people on board.
So there's the decoy threat stage.
What's the next stage? So after they've done the bully test and they've tested the decoy threat to see if people will get wound up about it, can they virtue signal?
Can they stoke moral outrage?
Yes. Okay. So I move on to what I call spotlighting, stigmatizing, and shaming.
And throughout the book, I try to point out how bullies use a lot of the social psychological principles that can be used for good, for ill.
And so when you look at the research on fundraising, say, we know that people are much more likely to give money when you focus on an individual victim and you spotlight that person, you elicit sympathy for that person.
If you say a million children are sick, that's not as motivating to people as, let me show you this one child who's sick.
That motivates people.
It's the same with bullying.
If a bully says, well, these people are doing something that hurts us and we need to take them down.
That doesn't do much, but if you say that one person, she's the one doing it.
And so that's the spotlighting.
So now you really start to bring more attention to that person, whether it's in real life, in meetings, online, wherever it is, you bring more attention, you could go, you know, I don't mean to be a nag about this, but I have noticed that this person, right?
So you keep bringing attention back to that person.
You then get enough sort of traction where people are going, oh, wow, maybe something is going on there.
Maybe she is wrong. Maybe she is bad.
Maybe she is hurting us that you've then stigmatized that person, right?
So now that person is, you know, not to be associated with, to not be given opportunities.
And you've also shamed them, right?
So now even if they know full well that they haven't done anything wrong, it is impossible to not feel shame in this situation.
It's impossible, especially when the targets are more likely to have friendly universe worldviews, right?
Like to feel that the world is fundamentally friendly.
If this is happening to them, well, they must have done something to deserve, right?
So now they've been, you know, the spotlight's fully on them.
They have been stigmatized and they've been shamed.
So that's the next phase.
And they're experiencing shame, self-doubt, all the things that human beings are going to experience in that situation.
They are being just overtly shamed and they are feeling that shame.
And that makes it hard that that's where you really start to take their voice away.
Because they're less likely to use it now.
Right. I mean, the outcomes of shame are just not good.
Yeah. It's not a good tool, you know, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,
to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,
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to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,
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