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business leaders and Morris and Francis Fry share real fixes to some of the most common workplace problems And if you're listening and have your own workplace issue, you can send in your questions by emailing fixable at Ted calm Find fixable wherever you get your podcasts and learn more about the Ted
audio collective at audio collective Ted calm now on to the episode Oh Francis how are you?
Oh, I'm doing well today, baby on a scale of one to ten What is the level of friction you're experiencing in your life today?
Well, may I be annoying?
Always you don't need my consent if you say on a scale of zero to ten.
I know which one is higher this is This is my least favorite form of Friction the zero to ten scale friction.
Why don't you explain what you mean, honey for all our eager listeners out there?
so loads of customer research was done and they would always give a scale of one to ten for how satisfied you were and What they found out is that some people interpreted ten at the top of the scale and some people interpreted one at the top of The scale and it's not self -evident And then there was the genius
observation if we give a scale of zero to ten We know which is the best and which is the worst.
Do we really want the people who are confused in the data set?
It seems obvious that ten is best Except for at the Harvard Business School.
We give grades of a one two and three, which is best No, you're Unpersuaded I didn't hear the answer We never have to have this conversation Thank you.
So why don't we call this getting on the same page friction?
I love it. Maybe speaking the same language friction or maybe letting your wife win this one Oh, you know what that would have been a good note to have gotten earlier on You know, it's Despite my resistance It's actually a good example of what we're talking about when we talk about friction, which is things
getting in the way of progress And I don't think it's an overstatement to say that this is one of The great sources of frustration in your life in particular That is an absolutely true statement and just the smallest amount of friction can just veer me off course for days for days So you and I obsessed
with this question of how to set people up for success and I love Identifying friction as this very material variable in our ability to do what we came to do at work Yeah, I often refer to pebbles and boulders and the way that it I often encounter it is that people feel like they have a Big problem
in their way Boulder and what I try to do is with the right frame and the right insight is right size that down to a pebble and then Help equip them to sweep it away Well sweeping things away is our topic for today We are having another master -fixer on the show actually two of them Bob Sutton and huggy
Rao Both are fantastic Stanford professors and they are co -authors of a new book called The Friction Project I love that our listeners are going to get to meet Bob and huggy a beautiful beautiful collaborative Partnership they're brilliant individually and together they have so much insight They take
their topic seriously, but they don't take themselves seriously and they spark joy Yeah, I'm really excited to dig in here.
I think this topic is Under -examined as an important issue in the workplace.
I'm so excited. Let's dive in I'm Anne Morris.
I'm a company builder and leadership coach and I'm Francis Fry I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School and I'm Anne's wife and This is fixable from the TED audio collective on this show.
We believe that meaningful change happens fast Anything is fixable and good solutions are often just a single brave conversation away You Ryan Reynolds here for mint mobile You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is Actually getting a direct line to the big man up north
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and it's great to see you in Francis.
I'm so excited It's a delight to be here to this afternoon you both have been helping organizations become better More effective and more humane places for decades And so it really is our privilege to host you we are particularly excited about your new book, which is the friction project Which we both
loved loved Truly fantastic and really one of the pleasures of the past year has been getting to know your work better.
So Thank you for that gift as well.
I love getting to know your work better and the two of you just crack me up That is really the bar that we're shooting for and the metric we care most about so That's a great start for us We want to start with the problem you're focused on now, which is we understand it in its simplest form is to reduce
bad friction in organizations and Increase good friction.
That's a wonderful summary.
I think that's a classic really difficult challenge that every leader struggles with every day Yeah, well, that's why we're excited for this conversation.
So in your work, how do you define friction?
What is it? When I think of friction I think of when an employee or a team is trying to do something and it's hard and it feels harder than they want That I guess that's where I would start So I don't know whether a physicist would agree with that But that's the kind of thing that got me going.
Okay, what would you add or are you with?
The only small modification I'd make Bob is that for me friction consists of obstacles And the real question is do obstacles Infuriate or do obstacles help educate decision makers?
Look at you That's lovely.
Well, let's go to some examples.
So where am I most likely to see it in the workplace?
so after Bob and I wrote this lovely book called scaling up excellence what people would kind of respond with was Feelings of How hard it was to get anything done?
I remember asking one person and an executive program Hey, where do you work?
And the guy looks at me and says I work in a frustration factory Myself and saying oh my god, how can you even summon the will to go there every day?
Another person spoke with an extraordinarily moving quiver to her voice And I said how would you describe what you do?
And she looked at me and said I pour myself into work.
That's largely inconsequential But then she said when I go home I just have scraps of myself for my family and That kind of hit me in the gut, you know, and to us They actually kind of evoked the world of bad friction if you will obstacles that Anger infuriate and fundamentally Exhaust people if you
will you just give up.
Yeah So Bob, what's the most damaging type of?
Friction, the most damaging kindness is the kind that kills people's will the woman who comes home and with scraps of herself That huggy was describing another great line from from another executive we talked to was I feel like I'm swimming in a sea of shit and Why did they expect me to show any initiative?
So that's Bad friction and you know if you sort of go down the standard list its emails It's meetings its routines and procedures that make things difficult So do you have a way of framing this challenge or?
Describing it in a way that really allows people to put this at the front one is that for people in leadership?
positions in fact almost anyone your job is to be a trustee of others time and then stealing a line from an HBS grad Name Michael Dearing now venture capitalists.
He had this argument that the best leaders see themselves as editors -in -chief I love that metaphor.
The only minor thing I'd like to add is What leaders need to do is they really need to understand how valuable the time of their employees is So you don't want to piss it away and how many leaders do that effortlessly?
So I really like where huggy is going with this because when it when it's dysfunctional Everybody points their fingers to everybody else and says it's everybody else's fault and I'll give you a little example This was just about two months ago.
I've got four hundred executives.
They're all vice presidents This is like some kind of huge company and they're all complaining There's too many slack messages on too many trivial things too often a universal complaint that we hear Yeah, and then I say to them you are the 400 vice presidents in this huge companies Why don't you look
in the mirror and look at the slack messages you sent this morning and start working on it?
I love that and it's a great example of this subtraction mindset you advocate for in the book basically instead of adding Complexity or nuance or maybe in this case a slack bot to solve a problem just subtract send fewer slack messages One minor thing even though Bob and I use the term Subtraction as
shorthand most people think subtraction is about the elimination of activities or elimination of tasks Of course, that's important but for us What's the most important thing to subtract are the negative feelings that are associated with being overwhelmed at work?
So for Bob and I the outcome of Subtraction may certainly be a more efficient organization But what's most important is that we give employees the gift of time They're starved for time.
Hmm And we have a case study that both of us wrote together about AstraZeneca Where a team of people they actually launched a social movement of sorts if you will To save 2 million hours So you could sell 4 million more customers run 400 early -phase trials and so on So I think it's kind of very important
to connect From our point of view subtraction to the idea of giving employees the gift of time I I love that you you tell a story in the book that that has really stuck with me About an executive name Scott So Scott is working 16 hours a day seven days a week when we encounter him.
He embraces This subtraction idea the performance of his team improves.
He works fewer hours His health gets better and he saves his troubled marriage So are these the kind of results you're willing to commit to for our listeners?
Well, so you got to be careful with people like us who do management cases as we tend to make excessive claims But the principle that we talk about suppose we applied the rule of halves So Bob, so for the non academics Among us out here.
So the rule of halves is you're just you're cutting a work burden by 50 % So the number of standing meetings the number the length of your emails.
Is that the idea? That's it.
Oh, but but but to be more realistic There's a woman named Rebecca Heinz So we worked with Rebecca on this thing called a meeting reset with 60 Asana employees Rebecca did most of the work to be clear and and what she had 60 employees do is go through it rate every standing meeting on their calendar
in terms of how important it was and how much work it was and They found that a whole bunch of the meetings Were valueless and in fact one thing 30 of them removed all standing meetings from their calendar for 48 hours and put them back in and on average the average person saved about four hours a month
by Eliminating meetings by making them shorter less often smaller things like that and that to us That's an example, you know, it's not 50 % but it's four hours a month with which ain't nothing.
Mmm So how many executives think of how do I go about designing a good job?
Mmm a good job that fosters initiative that actually Fosters generosity because in the end that's really the purpose of job design, isn't it?
The way I like to think of it is The real purpose of job design is not to get people to do a series of tasks only You want to help them recruit a more curious and generous version of themselves?
We have many versions of ourselves What's the point of designing a job that's going to recruit an exhausted version of myself?
And that's kind of the problem.
We feel in organizations That leaders kind of have the ask muscle.
I want you to do more Using one rhetorical slogan or the other but what about the help muscle trying to create jobs?
So that people don't have scraps of themselves to go back home I love Focusing on the metric of how employees feel Not only when they're working but but at the end of the day, so say i'm listening and you have my attention Where do I even begin?
Uh to solve this problem.
Where's the starting place for people who are convinced the simplest place is To get people to think of how do we get rid of stupid stuff?
There's a lot of stuff that everybody thinks is stupid How do we do that there bob and I have tried this in class and when I ask executives, hey Imagine you're going back to work You have an initiative called get rid of stupid stuff.
I'm going to impose two constraints on you first Whatever initiative you want to come up with A 10 year old should be able to understand immediately Otherwise it's never going to scale.
The second thing is You're only allowed one rule as a result and the rules shouldn't contain more than four words And when you put that constraint on people I you know both bob and I have seen it's just not a failure of implementation It's also a failure of imagination.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
I love elevating that question to a mission critical question And not just a backroom whisper Conversation which is where it often happens bob.
What would you add?
Where would you where would you advise people to start?
well, first of all And and we heard this, you know, because we teach executives and they're pretty smart usually I remember this woman saying That that my job is part therapy and part organizational design organizational design is extremely important but part of your job as a leader is is to be aware that there
are going to be systems and situations That can't be fixed at least for now and your job is to keep people Sort of moving forward in the mess and in some ways, you know to be more A little bit more precise there's a woman.
Her name is clara shy So she's now ceo of ai at sales force and she talked about when uh, when she launches a big initiative What she does is she tells people it's going to be messy.
You're going to be upset.
We're not going to be able to fix things She has two teams and she caused this separation of concerns one team is basically To do all the stuff that was is going as it was supposed to go and the other team are the people who deal with the mess the unexpected stuff is good and I I thought that was A
pretty complete view of how you as a leader move people through friction and and that's why she's a ceo and i'm not She's really good I am Marveling at at this delightful conversation and huggy.
I love the The way that you bring the heart and the head together with the language.
It's just really beautiful the The recruit a more curious and generous version of ourselves I I think a lot and we think a lot about creating the conditions to thrive But you've added a just a poetic nuance to that and a higher mission to it So the first thing is well, it's a real like you're talking
about friction, which seems like an operational morsel You're actually talking about moral So you've gone from morsels to morals in a really beautiful way beautifully put yeah You know maybe this is the perfect stage given what francis just said to talk about our discovery of how in this whole friction project
Love has to meet logistics.
Oh, so let's talk about love So the way this started so we get introduced to a guy who's gonna be a guest in huggy's class in a few weeks His his name is todd park.
He was the cto in the obama administration He actually led the effort to fix the obama care website and he's built a software company.
He said he's a fixer okay, so he and his brother ed started a company called devoted health which what they do is they They make health care more accessible and clearer for people over 65 and we all know how hard it is to navigate the healthcare system It's like it's unbelievable So we're interviewing
him and he starts talking about love like huh?
You're like a and he said so yes He said if you start with the notion that the person we're helping is like your mother or your father and you love them And you want to have an experience that feels great for them And then you design the interaction you design the software around them to support them
if you start with love Things were better from both an efficiency and mental health standpoint We've used that word in our work and we use it to define Setting high standards and revealing deep devotion simultaneously.
So that this is called devoted health Is amazing to us because our our definition of love is the simultaneity of high standards and deep devotion It's super provocative to use the word love in corporate settings and We've really enjoyed playing with that tension because it really brings the conversation to
A different place. Yes.
Are there other subtraction tools?
Give us one more thing to walk away from this conversation monoxide somewhere Talk about jargon monoxide because that's just fun.
Yeah, so essentially it's language that uh, that that that bores confuses and overwhelms people This is this is when some a word which used to mean something Means so many things to so many people that it qualifies for Daniel Kahneman's definition of noise Which is a random scatter of ideas my favorite
example which is in the book is uh, there was a agile consultant in australia who can describe 40 different kinds of agile in 40 minutes If something means 40 different things to 40 different people it means nothing.
So that would be an example of uh, friction inducing jargon monoxide And super actionable to just let's let's say what we mean in a way that we can hear it Yeah, and maybe this is a bridge to our conversation on good friction You know a new case is underway about a company called Mind 24 seven they
are transforming I would say mental health care You know started by stanford alum Amazing guy I sort of asked him I said, okay Tell me what is it you're doing?
In mental health and he looks at me they're building physical structures that are open 24 7.
Yeah mental health.
You can't really schedule Yeah and It's really interesting he gets paid by the local county Because he's taking friction out for the er rooms of local hospitals.
Otherwise, they're going to be crowded with Mental health patients.
They don't know quite what to do with and I said who refers the patients to you and he said, you know The best referral sources are cops.
I said cops. Yeah, what do you do for them?
He said the average cop in tucson spends Roughly one day a week driving around trying to find out.
Hey francis. Will you take my patient?
No, hey, and will you take my you know, and so we just compress all of that And to give you a sense of love meeting logistics In their mental health clinics, you can actually get to see him a psychiatrist in 22 minutes Oh my gosh Wow 22 minutes and the way he described it from an operations point of view was He
said the real challenge in mental health is he said The logistical model he said is that of a car wash?
You know you you got like bronze and silver and platinum and like whatever But you got to have the front end and the experience suffused with love Uh, that's such that's so powerful.
I love it. I love it.
Well, bob tell us about good friction Tell us why we want it and what it is.
We're pretty obsessed with with good friction In fact, our argument is that many things in life Should be slow because they're hard And there's no other way to do it, right?
And so there's this really cool study which came out actually after a book that compares problem solving in increasingly difficult tasks Among people who have higher and lower iq's and then they do these brain scans fmri's and everything and what they found is that Is that higher iq people?
Uh solve easy problems faster More difficult problems slower, but better And to me that's a reasonable metaphor and then and then I think we should talk about creativity So your colleague terese moblai spent her whole life Studying creativity since she was a stanford phd student and now she's emeritus
And uh, one of the big lessons is when you try to hurry creativity too much You screw it up.
You cheat you wear people out and and then I can tell you a tale of two stanford Uh startups one that uh, probably you've all heard of farinose elizabeth ohms is she in jail yet?
I'm, not sure but she cheated and lied because she had a hurry too much.
Yeah, she was in a hurry I would compare her to greta mire and amanda calabrese.
They started a company called sequel The reinventing the modern tampon.
They just got fda approval They've got five million dollars in venture capital They took every hard startup class at stanford.
They did everything the tough way They formed a relationship through hell and they both finished their degrees.
They didn't drop out You could argue that fda approver itself is a is an example of good friction.
Yes Yeah, and the obstacle can can take various forms Our wonderful colleague jennifer eberhardt Now she worked with the oakland police department and I believe I think it was 2018 They had like 31 000 plus traffic stops and tragically more african -americans and latinos were being stopped And the operative
question is how do you reduce needless traffic stops?
And she came up with a pretty simple idea which was when you stop a vehicle, there's like a Three question.
Yes, no checklist. They added one more question And that question was do you have prior intelligence connecting this vehicle to a prior crime?
Yes, no And if it's yes, stop the vehicle.
Otherwise, let it go Just adding that question lowered the number of stops by 31 percent and presumably crime did not increase That's right.
And ironically, even though there were fewer traffic stops people felt safer.
Yeah Yeah, i'm sure it reminds me of the research around dating apps where if you make making it easy to So easy to swipe left or right actually leads to worse outcomes in terms of people building relationships Yeah But then creating these high higher friction even if they're more awkward moments where strangers
come together Actually created a context where people made stronger connections one of the most important Lines in our book which is from the supreme's which is you can't hurry.
Love. Yes Well now we have the data So yeah, this dating study is a fascinating study This is not a published paper.
It's still in process But you know Our graduate student we said hey, why don't you use large language models?
Take a look at all the various startups and look at the mission vision statements and whatever public documents And tell us what's the linguistic emphasis on speed?
And so they came up with a number so she said what do I do with this number and we said well You know show us the relationship between the linguistic emphasis on speed and the time taken to become a unicorn and receive that one billion dollar valuation Predictably the more you emphasize speed the faster
you become a unicorn So the graduates wouldn't have this is really cool.
We said wait a minute do another study Show us what's the relationship between the time taken to get to unicorn status?
And the probability of lawsuits two years down the line So the faster you became a unicorn the more likely you were to be slapped with lawsuit Well friends I'm wondering where your head went but I also Want to make the link between this conversation and a book we published titled move Going exactly
where i'm going. So listen Your book came out after ours, but should we just tear it up?
Because that's the question because here so I I want to just put it out here You can move fast and break things all four of us are in agreement that that's bad, right?
But there are two anecdotes to this you can either slow down which is what you're arguing for Or you can put in some good friction.
Yeah, but I just I want to make sure Um is our book obsolete I I don't think that we we disagree Um a good analogy is uh who wins the most?
races in like formula one or nascar So people don't know when to hit the gas and no one hit the brakes and their overall speed is highest But if you don't hit the brakes when you go into the corner Or when you're about ready to smash into the car next to you It's all over and and so to me that is sort
of The the analogy that that I like to use is it's the gas and the brakes So so it's your overall speed is what matters, right?
Yeah, no, I love that I was gearing up and putting on the gloves and getting ready for the the showdown in this conversation But then as I I went deeper into the book I realized that one way to think about what the the theory we just launched into the world is that Monday through thursday is about creating
good friction and then on friday you earn the right to eliminate all the bad friction We're just saying sequence it.
Yeah, you know, it's it's as I was reading your book, which I enjoyed The phrase that rang through my mind was a phrase that apparently Augustus caesar used to use when he sent his generals to battle And he would always tell them apparently make haste slowly And I sort of see that is like the connection.
Yes, that's it huggy We're one of the two women obsessed with ancient rome in addition with all the men So I want to add one more thing There's a really cool academic literature on savoring.
So you're talking about coping.
It's like bad stuff Got to cope with it.
I'm in a hurry. I you know, I got it up but savoring is When good things happen when you're having a lovely meal, you're having a lovely conversation Literature shows that that it's good for your mental health to slow down in and enjoy things and so the example that we use in the book the largest supermarket
chain in the netherlands is called jumbo and they Experiment with the slow lane and this is where for people to slow down and have a chitchat with the the clerk And they've scaled it out to 125 different grocery stores in pollen.
It warms my heart Yeah, this is for the elderly customers.
So so that's savoring some things, you know, they ought to be slower So what's the biggest thing that you hope listeners take away from this conversation?
How do you why don't we start with you?
I've come to slowly realize that the people with the most power in any organization Are people who can waste your time and you can't do a darn thing about it That's what real power is the modern definition of power Yeah, you have no recourse whatsoever but the other thing that I walk away with is it's
really kind of Made me realize How to put good friction in my life and how to take bad friction out of my life so I ask myself.
Do I really need to be in this meeting?
That's going to take like one and a half hours and not result in anything.
No, thanks. I don't need to beat it So i'm going to be there wherever I feel the test for me is my curiosity and generosity Are recruited and so I think injecting curiosity and generosity into daily life as important as Doing it at work Um bob what about you?
What do you want people to take away from my mind's a little bit more?
I guess narrow but this general notion which all of us know Life would be better for all of us if if we did what we could From where we are.
My favorite example in the book is one of the best experiences I had was going to the department of motor vehicles in california There was 60 people in line in front of me It was 7 30 in the morning and I and my mother had passed away and I had to like do this title stuff And I figured I was going to
be there all day in this wonderful dmv employee It's like 7 40 starts walking down the line And asking each person while they were there.
He did triage and Uh, he gave me my form to fill out and I thought I was going to be there all morning I was out by 8 15 And they opened today and and we had a zoom with the the senior executives who run the california dmv And they are doing all the stuff with technology with culture with old -fashioned
process sort of design uh to improve the quality and and and In one transaction which is called getting real id They've cut it from an average of 28 minutes to 8 minutes for people who visit the dmv and And so so so to me is if this guy at the department of motor vehicles can be a trustee of other people's
time Then almost anybody else can wow.
What a powerful example All right.
Well, you you both are extraordinary and we're so grateful that you joined us for this conversation You made it so much easier for us.
Thank you both. Thank you Hey, i'm ryan reynolds recently I asked mint mobiles legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation They said yes, and then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous to your contracts What the are you talking about you
insane hollywood So to recap we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from 30 a month to just 15 a month Give it a try at mint mobile .com slash switch $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month new customers on first three month plan only taxes and fees extra speed slower above 40 gigabytes details
thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home out indecision overthinking second guessing every choice you make In plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done Out beige on beige on beige in knowing what to do When to do it and who to hire start caring for your home with confidence
download thumbtack today Francis what did you learn from bob and huggy?
Ah so much so much about bad friction and good friction, you know, i'm predisposed to get rid of the bad to savor the good, um that that is new and I Find that each of us can be the person in the dmv Right like like do what we can from our position as bob said I love the dmv example because that's not a person who has,
you know, extraordinary power in this system But had a huge impact on the experience the people in that line.
I also really loved this idea of designing jobs That solve for curiosity and generosity And right now in many organizations we're doing the opposite, you know We're creating jobs where I can't show up generously And I can't show up with curiosity because there's all of these other You know miserable
tasks that I have conditions that I have to do And what if we took real responsibility for that?
as leaders and as organizations I'm so inspired the other thing I loved is picturing huggy Deciding whether or not to attend a meeting I mean we do live at the tyranny of other people's relationship with our time At kind of a high level, but at a micro level We probably can make some more decisions
about whether this meeting is worth my time.
This phone call is worth my time and it's sobering for me because I Don't always solve for my own generosity and curiosity, you know, you're very dutiful Yeah, you know, I I will do things out of obligation or or feeling a sense of responsibility For people but I don't do the full calculus.
What am I giving up?
when I Have that kind of a relationship with my time the idea that I have some more control over this than i'm asserting Is exciting.
It's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting our challenge to listeners is to take that rule of halves Into your lives and see if there's a a work burden that you can reduce by 50 Number of meetings how long the email is you and I will join in the challenge What can we reduce by 50 %?
I I love it and I can't wait to re -listen to this I think I will listen to it again and again and learn more and more and I and I hope everyone that's listening Gets that as well Fortunately with the technology of podcasting we can savor it we can savor it Thanks for listening everyone We want to hear
from you if you want to figure out a workplace problem together Send us a message at fixable at ted .com or call us at two three four fixable.
That's two three four three four nine two two five three hhhhh Fixable is brought to you by the ted audio collective.
It's hosted by me and morris and me frances fry Our team includes isabelle carter constanza giardo lydia jean cott grace rubenstein Sarah nyx michelle quint cori hagem ala hondras alazar Ban ban chang and roxanne high lash this episode was mixed by luhi at story yard If you're enjoying the show make
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At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost.
Their designer quality frames start at $95, including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant, and anti -reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life.
To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses, or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker .com.
That's warbyparker .com.
