This is our glass of This American Life.
Each week on our show, we choose a theme, tell different stories on that theme.
All right, I'm just gonna stop right there.
You listening to an NPR podcast, chances are you know our show.
So, instead, I'm gonna tell you, we've just been on a run of really good shows lately.
Some big epic emotional stories, and some weird funny stuff too.
Download us, This American Life.
You're listening to Life Kit, from NPR.
Hey everybody, it's Marielle.
All right, question.
Just between you and me.
You got a paper pile?
Yeah, we've all got a paper pile, a stack of mail, and bills, and forms you've been meaning to fill out, and old to -do lists, and discarded Post -its.
I've got three of these piles right now, actually.
Someone please send help.
I am Kasey Padey, and I have been a professional organizer since 2001.
I started right out of college.
My true love is helping people declutter their paper, and make sense of it.
Oh, thank god. Kasey says a lot of people end up with piles like this.
And in many cases, her clients get stuck, right?
They don't even start trying to get the piles under control, because they feel like the goal is a perfectly beautiful space.
An untouched space, you know?
An immaculately organized desktop, not a paper in sight.
The goal is that if somebody comes into my house, it should look like nobody even lives here.
But I feel like what people want more than space is a sense of control and mastery over their domain.
People really want to be able to find what they need when they need it.
So I always tell my clients, we're not striving to be photographed for the cover of a magazine.
We're striving to give you systems that last.
Things that you can rely on on your busiest, most hectic days.
On this episode of LifeKit, reporter Andy Tegel talks with Kasey Patey about the art of decluttering your paper and how to get your most important documents organized.
We'll go over where to start, how to sort, what to toss and when to toss it, and how to keep future paper monsters at bay once you've slayed them.
If you're a regular listener of the LifeKit podcast, you probably listen to some other NPR podcasts too.
With NPR Plus, you'll get perks like sponsor -free listening, bonus episodes, early access, shop discounts, and more for more than 20 different NPR podcasts.
So start supporting what you love and stop hearing promos like this one at plus dot NPR dot org.
The Code Switch team spent election day talking to folks about how the outcome might impact them.
It's a time capsule of people's hopes and fears before they knew the results.
One way or another, there's a change coming.
I wanted to vote for Trump, but I voted for her.
Gays for Trump. I cried this morning.
I've been crying on and off.
I'm terrified. Listen to Code Switch, the podcast about race and identity from NPR.
Hey, it's Peter Sagel, the host of Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.
Now, if you like Wait, Wait, and you're looking for another podcast where the hosts take self -deprecating jabs at themselves and invite important guests on who have no business being there, then you should check out NPR's How to Do Everything.
It's hosted by two of the minds behind Wait, Wait, who literally sometimes put words in my mouth.
Find the How to Do Everything podcast wherever you are currently listening to me go on about it.
On NPR's Wild Card podcast, comedian Seth Meyers talks frankly about his early career.
I was a far more temperamental when I was younger, and things ran very hot at S &L.
And there were definitely times where my instincts were to say something that would have been relationship ending to people.
I'm Rachel Martin. Seth Meyers is on Wild Card.
The show where cards control the conversation.
Casey, there are so, so, so, so, so many categories of documents that require saving.
So many different levels of importance with all these categories.
Birth certificates and passports on one level, tax information and medical records maybe on another, then there's some car stuff and home stuff, smaller stuff, which maybe aren't as vital, but still necessary to have around, like the oven manual, the receipt for the dry cleaner.
I'm overwhelmed just trying to break it all down in one sentence for you.
So where do we start?
Where do we, what's step one here?
I like to start with what is within a certain small radius of your computer or your laptop.
Because what piles up within arm's reach of where you sit when you're at your computer is very different than the paper that's 10, 20 years old on your, you know, in a box in your office closet or even in an old filing cabinet.
So we usually have just kind of like the day to day, you know, the piddly stuff, the admin stuff, the documents and action items that are on fire tend to be closest to us.
If it's up to me, I feel like I can deliver somebody the most immediate relief if we pay attention to what has come in most recently.
Usually there are little fires to be put out, like little, little land mines.
People have the best of intentions to clear that up every day or every evening.
But if you have a hundred pieces of paper out, you have a hundred reasons why that wasn't able to happen.
Great. All right. So we have our hundred little land mines.
We're going to start with what's nearest to us.
Where do I go? So from there, if we're just doing a big crude sort, I would want to look at that particular population of paper and divide it into things that need action and things that simply don't.
Things that need action could be, oh, I'm going on a trip in a few weeks and I don't have a passport, like super, super urgent.
And things that need action could be, oh, I need to, you know, see if I can still deposit this check that I think went void 90 days ago.
So in this early phase, I'm not asking people to really parse out the fine details of types of action.
Just what do you need to act on versus everything else?
Because what you need to act on are usually things that you can't put away and people, you know, are always striving to put everything away and hide everything and clear their desk.
But a lot of what weighs people down visually and what weighs people down emotionally are the things that are screaming at them.
You can't just file them because then you forget you have them.
So if we can segregate your paper in such a way that you are only looking at what needs action in one snapshot, then we can really start to see your patterns.
And then we can start to catch those things and those categories as they come in.
And then we can start to see from those categories, how much of it really needs to be out in the open?
What needs to be on the desktop?
What needs to be within arm's reach?
What needs to be in a file drawer that's close to you versus across the room?
Takeaway one. If you don't know where to start, just reach for the pile nearest your workspace.
That's likely where the most recent and most pressing stuff will be.
This technique also applies for your digital paperwork, by the way.
Casey says most people will have a mix of both digital and paper clutter.
So if you're working on a computer or phone, just work with the most recent stuff in your inbox or camera roll.
Separate all those documents into two piles, active and inactive.
Active requires follow -up.
The phone call, paying a bill, inactive does not.
Receipts, certificates, sentimental stuff.
Once you've weeded out all the inactive paper, you can turn your attention back to the more pressing paperwork.
So now that we're just looking at our action items, now we want to start prioritizing.
I don't ever like to call action folders anything like urgent.
Because then it's like urgent one, urgent two, urgent three.
Oh, I see it all the time.
Sometimes I find urgent exclamation point files and we open it.
And I'm like, why is everything dated 2008?
This is where I think organizing gets really fun because you have to get creative with labeling.
So instead of urgent or do now, I would want to ask my client, when does this have to get done?
And they would say, this needs to get done when you leave.
Then I'm going to paperclip things with a big post -it and say, due Thursday night.
Or if they say, you know what, this needs to get done by the 15th of next month, then we're going to put that date on there.
Or I need to do this Monday morning.
We're going to put it in a folder, put a label on it that says due Monday morning.
So we want to be really specific because urgent means urgent now.
But when you find it under your desk six months from now, what does urgent mean?
And then you start trusting that word.
So it's becoming useful.
I like that. Okay, what about tips for inactive paperwork?
We have our inactive pile.
I assume we just don't want to let it sit there and collect dust.
Tips for how we start to parse all of that out.
Sure. So now we're talking about filing systems.
What I end up doing with a lot of clients is we do file boxes on shelves.
And those can be shelves in a closet.
They can be open shelves on a bookcase.
File cabinets can be really ugly and corporate and cheap.
They can be beautiful and look appropriate with the finest of furniture.
So something I love to do is see what kind of shelving somebody has.
So let's say we're in a home office.
I might realize, you know, you have a bookcase.
How do you feel about taking three of these shelves and putting beautiful file boxes on those?
And then you have this visual filing system that's also beautiful and approachable.
Take away two. Create a filing system that works for your space and is as basic or as intricate as you need it to be to actually find the things you need when you need them.
That could be super simple.
Like having a couple of files on your computer or the cloud, each labeled for the big categories like work, medical, home, auto, that you can refer to as needed.
There are plenty of note taking or planner apps out there that can help with this.
Or as meticulous as having a different filing cabinet for each member of the family separated by year, color coded, alphabetized and categorized.
How many folders is too many folders?
If it starts to feel like you have too many, but you know you need that much paper, that's when we can start getting creative with where things are.
We can get creative with color coding.
All of the personal papers, for example, might be a fun color.
Maybe we make those a bright turquoise.
And then all of their business folders are like a boring manila.
So if you feel like you're straddling that line or far past that line of too many file folders, you can start breaking them up in such a way that visually it still feels calm and manageable.
When every file folder looks exactly the same and is the same color and you have a thousand of them, you're going to get lost.
You're not going to be able to retrieve what you've got.
That leads me to another question, which is, does getting organized always require a ton of investment?
Does everyone need a fancy label maker and a high end scanner and a fireproof safe and a giant file cabinet?
Not at all. I've been doing this for about 23 years.
I only bought my first label maker about four years ago.
Wow, that's really impressive.
Takeaway three. You don't need any fancy materials to get organized.
So no budget for that beautiful five tier desk organizer with a matching stapler and three hole punch.
Don't worry, you can still get started.
So I keep a certain number of basic supplies in my trunk and I've turned to them time and time again.
And just to give you an example, I use extra sticky white post -it notes, just your classic square post -it note as a file label.
They're stickier than your basic post -it so they won't fall off and they're not so sticky that they're permanent.
And I just use my own bold all caps handwriting with a fine Sharpie.
And there are just probably millions of file folders across town with my handwriting on those on white post -its.
And that's all you need to get started.
Naturally, you might need some file folders.
But going back to the handwriting on a post -it note, the beauty in that is that you're not carving anything in stone.
So a lot of times people's hesitation to start making file folders and labels of any sort is that they're going to change their mind.
And sometimes we change our mind about what we call a label, what we call a file folder.
Five minutes later, sometimes we change our mind a year later.
And people really don't like, you know, being messy and scratching things out and having tape residue.
So it's very freeing to do a little bit more of a cheap and temporary label.
All right. What about our most important files?
I'm thinking about, you know, passports, licenses, birth certificates, things that we don't need often, but that we still need time to time.
Do you treat those any differently?
Do those go in those same file cabinets?
Is there an extra super special place that you recommend those going?
Sure. So with what I call very important documents, you want those to stand out and look different.
So let's say you're a manila file folder kind of person and you're comfortable still having your certificates, your passports, your marriage certificates in a file folder.
I would prefer it to be a colored folder.
I would prefer it to be, you know, a bright red or a bright green, and I would prefer it to be kind of a bookend to your filing system.
So I would want that folder or folders of very important documents to either be in the very, very back of a file drawer or file box, or at the very, very front.
There are a number of people, understandably, who prefer to have their very important documents in something like a safe or a fireproof safe.
And I've certainly done that before too.
Again, you just want to make sure that those safes are accessible.
Super helpful. For me at least, paper organization is a big project, but it's not something I'm going to be able to do all in one sitting, although it would probably benefit me to do it all in one sitting.
So how can people best set themselves up for success if they're doing this piecemeal?
Sure. So I think it's great to see projects within your project.
You may have a project and you are honest with yourself and you know that this could be a 50 hour project or this is a winter project.
So how do you feel some sense of relief and completion long before it's finished, long before you can see a light at the end of a tunnel?
And I was just coaching somebody earlier today with the same question.
She had a project with a deadline of about a month and a week out.
And I helped her break it down in about 10 minutes into eight smaller projects.
And I wasn't telling her she had to go in a perfect order.
I wasn't telling her she had to finish one before she started the next.
But you want to see micro projects and make micro progress and acknowledge that progress so you can see you're actually moving in the right direction before you're finished.
Yeah, small wins. Love that.
I love using timers, too.
I personally use a timer and I set that for 25 minutes when I am doing anything I don't want to do or anything that takes a lot of focus.
So I have worked with so many clients who have moved mountains 25 minutes at a time.
Takeaway four. Any progress is good progress.
You don't have to get all your paper decluttering done at once.
Start small. Keep at it.
And remember, organization is an ongoing process.
Casey, another big question I have for you.
When is it okay to trash once important documents?
Do you have a rule of thumb?
I ran out of my Gmail storage recently and so I had to go back through and find big files to delete.
And I realized in my G Drive, I was hanging on to lease agreements from a decade ago, sometimes more.
What's your rule? You know, I'm not an attorney.
I'm not an accountant.
So I don't have the hard and fast legal answers to this.
But something that helps a lot of people, and this can be with paper or little black dresses, anything really.
Ask yourself under what circumstances will I use this or wear this or refer to this?
So, you know, at least from college, just ask yourself under what circumstances would I ever have to produce this document?
And if you can't think of a single good answer, then in most cases, it can go.
I love that. What needs shredding versus throwing away?
So I work with a lot of people who I think shred way too much.
There's certain part of the population that feels like they have to shred everything with their name and address on it in order to sleep well at night.
Personally, what I shred is anything with my social security number, anything with an open bank account number or a credit card number.
I'm not shredding insurance.
I'm not shredding my name.
I'm not shredding my address.
For what it's worth, consumer protection authorities like the Federal Trade Commission and state attorneys general suggest destroying anything containing sensitive information to protect yourself from identity theft.
That includes things like account numbers, birth dates, passwords, and pins, signatures, or social security numbers.
But of course, shred to your comfort.
And finally, take away five.
Discern when it's time to let your documents go.
If you're feeling unsure about something, ask yourself under what circumstances will I need this?
Of course, this question won't exactly apply for sentimental paperwork.
So, you know, there's a fine line between keeping memories and living in the past.
Especially with sentimental paper, I feel like it helps to have an organizing buddy.
Sometimes it's a family member, sometimes it's a friend.
But especially with the tough paper, it can be sentimental or not.
You really need to get your thoughts around that paper out of your head.
You need to voice it.
Once you start talking about the tough paper, you come to your own conclusions shockingly fast.
I bear witness to people making their own right decisions a lot more than I feel like I even give my own advice.
I have a client I've known for a long time.
And before I met her, she went through a really painful divorce.
And she was hanging on to, it's hard to quantify, let's say 10 bins of divorce -related documents, give or take.
And some of it, for lack of a better word, was sentimental because it was such a cornerstone of her adult life, for better or worse.
And some of it was, what if I ever need to prove something?
What if this can result in money one day or a lawsuit?
But through our conversations together, she realized a lot of it was just keeping, I don't know if this was her or another client who called it records of pain.
When does the day come for me to decide it's time to be free and to throw it away?
And last week, I worked with one of these beloved clients, and she threw it all away.
She was ready. She had a job interview the next day.
And she was like, Casey, let's do it.
And it was just a beautiful thing to witness and be a part of.
You're always in control of your space, you're in control of your paper.
And it's up to you how fast you want to get through it.
Of course, there are exceptions.
Of course, there are roadblocks and speed bumps.
But ultimately, you're the one who decides what to keep and for how long.
That's wonderful. Casey Patey, thank you so much for joining us today.
We really appreciate it.
Looking forward to getting more organized.
Thank you. It was my pleasure.
Okay, let's recap. Takeaway one, grab the paper nearest your desk or workstation and sort your documents into active and inactive paperwork.
Active paper requires action.
Inactive paper does not.
Then act accordingly.
Takeaway two, create a filing system that makes sense for you.
That means it can be a complex or simple as you want it to be.
You just have to be able to find what you need.
Alphabetize, color code, label make, or don't.
The best file system is the one you'll actually use.
Takeaway three, getting your paperwork organized does not require any big investment.
So don't let your lack of aesthetically pleasing file boxes be the reason you're not getting your documents in order.
Takeaway four, decluttering your paper doesn't have to happen all at once.
Start small if you have to, like 25 minutes at a time.
And remember, organizing is an ongoing process that will require maintenance and change.
Takeaway five, learn to let go.
Not all paperwork needs space in your desk drawers.
If you're not sure whether or not to hold on to something, ask yourself under what circumstances would I need to produce this document?
If you can't think of a single reason for yourself, friend.
That paper pile isn't the boss of you.
Oh, and finally, a shout out to listener Ellie Arnold who wrote into us asking for advice on this topic.
Hope this helps. That was reporter Andy Tagle and professional organizer Casey Pady.
For more Life Kit, check out our other episodes.
We have another one on how to declutter your home in general and another on hydration.
You can find those at npr .org slash Life Kit.
And if you love Life Kit and want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr .org slash Life Kit newsletter.
Also, we love hearing from you.
So if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, email us please at lifekit at npr .org.
This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider.
Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Garib.
Meghan Kane is our supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer.
Our production team also includes Margaret Serino and Sylvie Douglas.
Engineering support comes from David Greenberg and Quacy Lee.
I'm Mary Alsighera.
Thanks for listening.
I'm Rachel Martin, host of NPR's Wild Card podcast.
I'm the kind of person who wants to skip the small talk and get right to the things that matter.
That's why I invite famous guests like Ted Danson, Jeff Goldblum and Issa Rae to skip the surface stuff.
We talk about what gives their lives meaning, the beliefs that shape their world view, the moments of joy that keep them going.
Follow Wild Card wherever you get your podcasts only from NPR.
On the Ted Radio Hour, clinical psychologists John and Julie Gottman are marriage experts.
And after studying thousands of couples, they have found couples who were successful had a really different way of talking to one another when there was a disagreement or a conflict.
How to be brave in our relationships.
That's on the Ted Radio Hour podcast from NPR.
Joe Biden's on his way out and Donald Trump's on his way back.
Want to know what's happening as the presidential transition is underway?
The NPR Politics Podcast has you covered with the latest news and analysis.
Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast.
