You're listening to How to Be a Better Human.
I am your host, Chris Duffy.
This is an episode of our podcast that has had a direct and immediate impact on my life.
My family and I just moved and I was totally overwhelmed by the boxes and the unpacking and all of the logistics.
But because of today's guest, Casley Killam, I sent out an email to a bunch of friends and I asked for help.
I was, frankly, very nervous about sending this email.
I was worried what people would think.
Was I being annoying?
Was it rude to ask for help?
Were people going to stop liking me?
But instead, people were so kind and responded and helped us out.
And what's more, we had fun.
I mean, it was still overwhelming and I still think moving is extremely unpleasant.
It's not like that part changed, but it was a lot less unpleasant than it could have been.
And that's because I got so much social support.
Today's guest, Kasley Killam, has been studying the importance of social support and connection for years.
And, as you'll hear in this episode, she directly challenged me to do more to ask other people for help.
To believe that, asking for help can in fact help strengthen friendships.
But Kasley has also been looking at how dire the current state of social connection is.
And she believes that we really need to view this as a crisis.
Here's a clip from Kasley's TED Talk.
Hundreds of millions of people around the world go weeks at a time without talking to a single friend or family member.
Globally, one in four people feel lonely.
And 20 percent of adults worldwide don't feel like they have anyone they can reach out to for support.
Think about that.
One in five people you encounter may feel like they have no one.
This is more than heartbreaking, it's also a public health crisis.
Disconnection triggers stress in the body.
It weakens people's immune systems.
It puts them at a greater risk of stroke, heart disease diabetes dementia, depression and early death.
Social health is essential for longevity.
So you might be wondering, what does it look like to be socially healthy?
What does that even mean?
Well, it's about developing close relationships with your family, your friends, your partner, yourself.
It's about having regular interaction with your coworkers, your neighbors.
It's about feeling like you belong to a community.
Being socially healthy is about having the right quantity and quality of connection for you.
We're going to be back in just a moment with a lot more on the science of social health and connection, including practical steps that you can take to improve your own social health and to make your life better, easier and more fun.
So stay tuned.
You don't want to miss this.
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We're talking about social health and connection today with Kazli Killam.
Hello, my name is Kazli Killam, and I'm the author of The Art and Science of Connection.
For people who haven't already read your book, let's talk about what social health is.
Let's just define the terms.
Sure.
So, if you think about physical health as being about your body and mental health as about your mind, social health is about your relationships.
So I think it's really important to actually distinguish this as a separate pillar, because decades of research at this point have shown that human connection is so much more important than we realize.
It's not just something that makes you feel happy when you spend time with your friends and family.
It's not just about mitigating depression or things like that.
It literally reduces your risk of things like heart disease and stroke and diabetes and dementia and premature mortality at the very extreme end.
So in other words, our relationships are actually determining how long we live.
And so social health is about recognizing that and really elevating the fact that this dimension of our well-being that comes from connection and community is vital.
It's essential.
Now just to kind of put that in like a scale, I've heard some researchers who study connection and friendship say that if you had a really healthy level of connection and social life and close community in your life, that that is more important for your health than anything short of smoking cigarettes.
Yeah, like if you don't smoke cigarettes, the second most important thing you could do to make yourself healthier is to have a connected social life.
That's right yeah, or some studies even show it's the most important thing, wow.
So I think what that highlights is that we need to elevate connection.
Like when we typically talk about what it means to be healthy or what you need to do to be healthy, we think of like get a good night's sleep, eat healthy foods, exercise often, don't smoke things like that.
And maintaining meaningful relationships needs to be part of that equation.
And we actually need to think about that as vital for our health.
And you have the 5-3-1 rule as a way of doing that.
Yes, yes.
So this is the 5-3-1 guideline, or you can think of it as like a challenge, right?
And so the idea is to aim to connect with five different people each week, to cultivate at least three close relationships and to spend one hour a day total connecting.
So that's like a benchmark if you're not sure where to start.
It's really important to recognize that relationships With connection, quality is more important than quantity, especially for introverts, of which I am.
So aiming for that more.
But if you want some sort of number or some sort of like starting place to help guide your actions, then that can be a helpful starting place.
So five different people each week, three close relationships, one hour a day connecting.
I'm actually kind of interested that quality is more important than quantity.
Yeah.
That doesn't seem totally intuitive to me.
Really?
If social life is so important, maybe I should meet 20 people in a week and that would be my wow.
I really put myself out there week.
Yeah.
Versus like having one conversation for two hours with my brother.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not immediately obvious to me that the second is better than the first.
Yeah.
Oh, good.
This is fun.
So I think what's important here is it depends on your personality, right?
So if you're someone who's really extroverted— and you thrive on socializing with people all the time and meeting new people and it's very energizing for you to be around people all the time then that might actually be true for you, right.
And 5, 3, 1, those numbers might seem really low for you.
But it's also true that socializing more is not necessarily better.
So I'm an introvert, which might be surprising because I talk all about connection.
But what that just means, it doesn't mean that I don't need connection less than an extrovert.
It just means that the amount of interaction that's fulfilling and energizing to me and the ways that I enjoy connecting might be different.
And so this is where kind of individual differences and preferences really come into play.
I am very far on the extrovert side, but my wife is very much an introvert.
And I feel like one of the ways that it often plays out is not that we like –
Not that she doesn't need interaction with friends and to meet new people, but that afterwards she needs time alone.
Yes.
Like that was a whole new idea to me that someone could be like now I need to go in a room alone for a while.
Not because I'm upset.
Yeah.
No.
I love that.
I love that you called that out.
And it's interesting how many times I meet people who are an extrovert, introvert couple.
Uh-huh.
But yeah, that's exactly it.
We introverts love connecting with other people, especially on a deeper level, but we need to balance that with solitude.
And that kind of alone time to recharge our batteries is super important.
And so that's why we can think about being socially healthy as partly connecting with others.
It's also connecting with yourself and making sure that that's part of your overall kind of social life.
Do you think that there is like –
I don't know if it would be evolutionary, but is there some reason, tied to the health benefits that you've been talking about with social health, for why introverts and extroverts might end up together?
Like you kind of intuitively know that for your long-term health you need someone who's going to push you a little bit.
And you also know, if you're me, that you need someone who's going to be like, let's take a little time alone too.
I wonder if there's some reason for that.
I wonder if there is too.
I mean, not that I've come across in the research, but it makes sense.
I think there's also this idea of there's value to both.
So, for example, there are studies showing that even introverts end up feeling happier when they socialize a bit more than they think they would enjoy.
And extroverts enjoy going deeper into conversation than they might kind of do on a normal basis.
And so I think there's something to this idea of like stretching our social muscles and going a bit outside of our comfort zones in either direction, where having a partner who kind of pulls you toward that middle and challenges you a bit is probably a good thing.
How would someone actually do this?
Like how do you have – five connections in a week.
Yeah.
You already do for sure.
Oh, well I do because it's like professionally I have to.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, but actually does that count if I'm doing it for work?
Does it count?
It can definitely count.
Can I count this as one of my five?
Yeah, you can count this.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, we're connecting.
This is fun.
I feel that.
I'm glad to know it's reciprocal.
Absolutely.
But like that would count even if it's like a work setting.
Yeah.
So the way I would think about it is um, It's about having diverse social interactions.
The number five and the five through one right.
So the research shows that you don't want to just put all your eggs in one basket or all your interactions with one person, right?
So if you only were socializing with your wife and just neglected your other connections, that would be problematic.
It's actually – uniquely beneficial to engage with a variety of people friends coworkers neighbors, right.
All different kinds of people and people who aren't like you too.
There's really interesting data showing that when you engage with people who come from a different background, have different beliefs, are of different ages, and so on, that's actually uniquely beneficial.
And so, yeah, I would say it could be engaging with your close loved ones.
It could be engaging with colleagues.
It could be chatting with the barista or the bus driver or things like that, or having a friendly interaction with your neighbor, right?
It's just about having diverse interaction so that your social life feels a little bit more vibrant and so that you're bringing out different parts of your personality with different people.
Yeah. especially since you're an introvert, people must ask you this because it's hard for them too.
What do you find are some of the biggest bang for your buck social interactions?
I'll just give you what I assume is an example, which is I have a.
I've had for years a weekly breakfast scheduled with one of my closest friends.
So every Tuesday morning, we have breakfast.
It's on the calendar.
When we're traveling, we do it on the phone.
But for me, the reason that's such like a big bang for my buck is it requires no scheduling.
It actually requires work to cancel it.
And so, you know, it's just on my calendar.
It's on his calendar.
We do it.
Yep.
I love it.
That's one of the tips in my book.
Oh, yeah.
I know.
That's why I brought it up.
But so for me that one like I put that into place in my own life and I really see the benefits of it.
What about – what are some other ones that are uniquely you get a lot more out than you put in?
Yeah.
Well, I think what's interesting here is –
There are quite a few studies showing that really simple forms of connection on an ongoing basis can be really rewarding.
So, for example, there was one study that looked at 10-minute phone calls multiple times a week.
And people who engaged in those phone calls just 10 minutes actually felt less lonely, like measurably less lonely after.
I think it was about a month or maybe two-month period, right.
Yeah.
Even a 10-minute phone call with someone you love, an old friend, a family member, a few times a week.
Or things as simple as texting a friend and saying, I'm thinking about you.
I think there are really easy ways that we can kind of weave this in.
As soon as someone you know comes into your head, you randomly think of a colleague, or you hear a song on the radio and it reminds you of a friend.
Text that person, or email that person right away and just say hey, this made me think of you.
Little touch points like that can be really meaningful.
Now, of course, we need deeper connection too.
And so when you talk about like bang for your buck, it's important that we're making sure we prioritize deeper quality time too.
But I think it's easy to – like something I hear all the time is that I'm just busy.
Like I don't have time to spend two hours a week having breakfast with my friend or whatever, when in fact we can weave it in in smaller ways that are still impactful.
Yeah, something that you talked about in the book and in your talk that I think really resonates with me is that's not like the language that people use when they think about their physical health.
Right.
Like people get that – of course it takes time to go to the gym.
It takes time to go for a run.
It takes time to find – time to buy the salad ingredients instead of eating in a fast food chain.
But people kind of understand that that time pays off in all these other ways and it's important.
Yeah.
And I think there is this – idea that, because often taking care of your social health feels good, like it's often fun, people are like well, that's like a bonus.
That's icing on the cake.
Yes, exactly.
So can you talk about how to combat that?
Yeah, I think that's what I'm really trying to fight.
Is this idea that we think our relationships, Or we easily let our relationships, come last, right?
Like it's the last priority.
It's kind of like our jobs come first.
You know, we're so busy working all the time.
And oh, if I get around to it, I'll hang out with my friends.
And I'm so guilty of this.
Let me be very clear.
I'm guilty of this too.
So this is as much a reminder for myself as well.
When actually what we need to really integrate into our understanding as individuals and as a society is that connection is essential.
It's actually determining how long we live, in addition to the quality of our living when we're alive.
But also coming back to your point about how we think about exercise, for example.
So we walked here together and we took the escalator.
We should have taken the stairs, right?
And that's an example of a simple change that you can make that yeah, it's not spending an hour at the gym, but walking up the stairs is better for you than taking the escalator.
So think about that with connection as well.
How are there small opportunities in your every day to weave connection in, even if you don't have time for a long hangout with someone?
Well, we are going to be hanging out more with Kazli in just a moment.
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And we are back with Kazli Killam.
This is me getting a little bit up on a philosophical soapbox here.
But, you know, we're here at the TED conference in Vancouver.
That's where we're recording this.
There are so many people here who are very, very deep in the technology world.
Yeah.
And one of the big things that is getting talked about right now is all these potentials and possibilities for AI and artificial intelligence.
And something that I'm always really struck by with that is that it's like there really feels like this philosophical goal of making things as easy and efficient and smooth as possible.
Yeah.
And to me that philosophical goal of like how can I get from A to B as quickly as possible, it kind of seems really at odds with connection and with having human experiences and creating memories with people, right?
Like it's so rare that –
A great memory with a friend is like and we were traveling and boy did that flight take off on time.
You know, like that's like never a good story.
Like you want the circuitous route.
That's where you build relationships and connection.
And I feel like so much of technology is trying to get us from A to B faster, when maybe that we haven't thought about what we do when we get to B.
Absolutely, yeah.
Or think about ordering your groceries instead of going to the grocery store, where you would otherwise have to talk with the cashier.
Or maybe ask a question of where to find something right.
You're so right that I think, by designing everything to be as easy as possible and as frictionless as possible, we're removing the magic of spontaneous connection, which can happen in everyday life.
And I think that's a problem.
I also think another example of this is not wanting to burden other people.
Now there's this kind of idea of oh, I can just call an Uber or a taxi to go to the airport, so I shouldn't burden my friend or my family member to drive me.
Or other examples where it's like there's this reluctance to I'm going away for a week.
Can you babysit my pet?
Things like that, we're just fearful or we feel like a burden if we're asking for help.
But that's actually robbing people of the chance to help us.
And the research also shows that we feel more connected and we deepen our connections when we help other people.
And so I actually would invite us all, including myself, to think about asking for help or being a burden, or creating friction as a way to give others an opportunity to feel like they matter to you.
This is one that I struggle with personally a lot.
Me too.
Me too.
I love when people ask me to help them with something.
I feel so needed and it feels so fun and connected.
And then when the flip side, I get so in my head of like, oh my gosh, it's going to put too much pressure on them.
They're going to feel like they have to say yes.
They're actually going to secretly hate me because I did this.
And so I don't do it.
And I think that it's a real loss for me.
I really do.
But I struggle with it a lot.
Yeah.
Or I think another example of this is going to a different city and wanting to stay with a friend versus staying in a hotel or an Airbnb, for example.
Like, that can feel like a burden nowadays.
Where have we gotten in our lives and our society where we feel like we're burdening other people when we want to spend time with them and be together?
Like.
This is a fundamental shift that needs to happen, where we need to go back toward recognizing that it's a gift to be able to spend time together and to take care of someone else.
I think also at least in my experience it feels like when we're younger the societal expectations are a lot looser around that.
Like, of course, you don't have any money.
You're just starting out.
If you come to Boston, you're going to sleep on my couch.
So true.
And then as we get a little older I mean partly it's like sleeping on a couch is going to destroy my back for a week in a way that it wouldn't when I was 19.
But I also think there's just kind of this like at a time when we need the connection more.
Yeah. we feel more awkward about asking for it.
And I'm using the royal we here because I'm definitely talking about myself, but I think it applies to other people too.
I totally struggle with this as well.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
And all the trends and the data are showing we're spending more time alone.
We have fewer close friends.
We belong to fewer community groups.
That's a problem.
That's affecting our social health.
That's affecting our mental health.
That's affecting our physical health.
And circling back, you brought up before kind of AI which, like you said, is the talk of TED this week.
And there's a huge trend of designing AI and using AI as a replacement for companionship and for connection.
And there are a lot of tools where people are using AI chatbots as friends, as romantic partners, not necessarily as a supplement to human connection, but as a substitute to human connection.
And one of the things I explored in my book was kind of getting to know some of these people who are using this.
And I tried it out myself as well.
And really thinking about this question of does it matter if the connection that you feel is coming from code rather than cells, and from AI rather than IQ or EQ, and from data networks rather than neural networks?
Like, does that matter?
And there was actually just a study that came out a couple weeks ago from researchers at the MIT Media Lab and OpenAI showing that higher daily use of these chatbots was associated with more loneliness, more emotional dependence and less socialization with other real humans.
So what the data is starting to show is AI chatbots for companionship are not making us less lonely, they're making us more lonely.
And so I think, as we continue down this path of shaping what the future of AI and technology is gonna be, this is something we need to pay a lot of attention to and be really intentional about.
Because I think technology, as we've seen with social media, can help deepen your relationships or it can really destroy them.
What are three things that people can do to make more of these connections, to build a little bit more of this friction and dependency into their lives, right?
I mean, obviously one is you can, if you need a ride to the airport, you can ask someone.
They can always say no.
But what are some, what are three ways that you would suggest people who are watching or listening try.
To create friction or to just connect in general?
I was actually thinking of them interchangeably.
So if they're different, well, let's start with how do you see them as different?
And then you can give us the three.
Well, I think there are a lot of ways to connect meaningfully that aren't necessarily creating friction, like giving someone a compliment or showing genuine curiosity and wanting to get to know someone more and asking questions more than you talk yourself or, you know, volunteering right.
Like finding opportunities to help other people.
Those are ways that we can feel more connected to the community that we live in, that we can feel like we belong and like it matters that we're alive.
And those aren't necessarily creating friction between humans.
They're just kind of giving and adding into our culture.
Yeah, I think those are three great ways.
And I can immediately think about in my own life how dramatically they pay off when I do any of those three things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So then I see now how the friction doesn't have to be necessary.
But let's talk about the friction one because at least for me selfishly.
Yeah.
I'm pretty good at doing those other ones.
Yeah.
I'm pretty good at about like saying giving someone a compliment.
Yeah.
I genuinely am very curious.
Some would say too curious.
And like.
For me, volunteering is the only way that I can combat my pervasive feeling that the world is collapsing around me.
But then when I go to the food pantry where I go every week, I feel like, oh, well, I
Actually, here's a bunch of people who are just doing something good for other people.
And I always leave there not feeling panicked about the future of the world.
And it's not like the news changed while I was in there.
So those are ones that I really recommend to people, but I also feel like I'm kind of good at on my own.
And I don't feel like I'm good at the friction ones.
So what's an example of where you feel friction coming up?
I would never ask someone to drive me to the airport.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a tricky one because driving to the airport, I mean, I live in L.A.
It's like a three-hour round trip extravaganza.
I think because we both live in L.A., that's part of it.
But even taking it away from the horrors, the unique horrors of the Los Angeles International Airport.
I have a young kid.
Yeah.
And –
I know that a lot of my friends like spending time with kids in general.
That, like the idea of saying like hey, you want to come over and like hang out with me and play with the baby, isn't a real burden.
But it feels to me like it's harder to ask for something that is helpful.
Like just to give an exact – a real example in my life.
Yeah.
It feels so much easier to me to say to a friend will you come over and I will bake croissants, something that takes a lot of work for me.
I'm your friend.
Wow, that's awesome.
This is how I get people over.
But, like, that I'm like, great.
I did that.
And it's so much harder to say.
Will you come over and play with our son for an hour so that I can record something I need to record?
Yeah.
Like I'm so much more inclined to pay someone to do that.
So I think I end up doing these ones that are really hard.
And as a result, I don't see people as much as I would see them.
Yes.
Because it's not like every day I can bake croissants.
Yeah.
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Okay, I think we should do a challenge.
I think you should do one a week where you ask someone to help you with something that makes you feel a little uncomfortable and think of it as an experiment.
I have a whole chapter in my book on experimenting and thinking like a scientist about our social health.
So I would do it as an experiment, like for one month Every week, try one thing where you are asking someone in your life to help you, or something that feels like there's friction and a little bit of burden, and then see how it goes and monitor.
How do you feel afterward?
How did they feel?
Do you, are you more connected?
You can even ask them, does this feel like a burden?
Like just get really transparent about it and curious.
And I bet that at the end of the month of trying four different things, you're going to realize all your friends loved it and were so happy to have the opportunity to love on you and support you in that way and also to spend more time together.
So that's the hypothesis and I want to see you test it.
I want to do this.
You're terrified?
No, I'm just genuinely, my honest, genuine reaction to that is that feels scary.
Yeah.
It does not feel like an easy challenge.
Sometimes on this show, people are like, here's a challenge.
What if you scrolled through your phone and texted someone different every day?
And I'm like, I can text someone.
That's fine.
But this one, I'm like.
You're terrified.
Oh, good.
I like that.
Let's lean into that.
Which probably means that it's more important to do.
Or even start with one.
Try it once.
Literally try it once and then see what happens.
It is such an interesting thing because, you know, often in therapy the question is like, how would you feel if this was someone else?
Right.
How would you feel if your friend asked you that?
I love being asked that.
Yeah.
Always.
My friend Olivia had this idea for a party that she calls the big to-do.
And it's you bring over your to-do list and you all do stuff together.
You all help each other get your to-do list done.
And I was like, that is the most fun idea for a party.
But then it was like, would I host a big to-do at my house for my to-do list?
No, I don't want to share my to-do list.
But I would love to be invited to a to-do list.
And it's not even about the privacy of my to-do list.
It's just like, but I could never ask you to help with mine, but I would love to help with yours.
That's so interesting.
I think what this highlights to me is something that came up to me when I was researching for the book, which is this idea that our own limiting beliefs are often get in the way of us being socially healthy.
So a lot of times when people feel lonely, a lot of the time some of the drivers of that are self-limiting beliefs, like feeling really socially anxious, assuming that other people don't like you in social interactions, assuming that it's going to go badly, or thinking that you might be a burden right.
Like these are examples of ways that we can kind of get in our own heads And then either not even go into the interaction at all, or when you go and are with someone, you have these thoughts in your head and they're actually preventing you from just relaxing and being who you are and engaging in a natural way.
And so one of the kind of most common ways in the research of addressing loneliness is therapy to address those limiting beliefs.
But I think all of us can kind of take heart in the fact that there are also studies showing people like us more than we think.
People appreciate hearing from us more than we think.
Most of the time, people want connection.
And it feels so good when someone is like, hey, I miss you.
I want to hang out with you.
It feels good to be wanted and loved.
And so maybe keeping that in the back of our minds and realizing, you know what?
Chances are people are going to be receptive to this and giving it a go.
Two things that I want to touch on I'm just going to say these so I remember them and put the pin in them is one is like kind of the ways in which different identities struggle with this.
And then another is some of the science around young people and technology.
There's often kind of like a moral panic around young people and smartphones and screens.
But I've seen some recent research that shows that actually young kids who don't have smartphones often suffer from a lack of connection to their peers.
So I'm certainly not arguing for everyone to have a smartphone or for the power of social media.
But I do think that often these things are more complicated.
It's not like if we just got rid of all smartphones, then kids would be instantly more connected.
And I wonder, as someone who's looked a lot into this, where that messiness of like the line between connection and disconnection is, because these technologies can do both.
Yeah, for sure.
It is messy.
And so much of it depends on how we're using these tools.
I think in that example that you shared, the bigger problem is that those kids are in the minority.
Most other kids are on smartphones.
And so if you're not, you're left out.
If all your friends are on TikTok and Snapchat and you're not allowed to be on that device, that's a problem.
And that's where I love John Haidt's recommendation of we all need to create a new kind of social norm around this.
And if everyone's kids are not allowed to go on social media until a certain age, then that kind of eliminates that problem.
I suspect that that's what's going on in that example.
But I do think that certain groups it affects differently.
Yeah.
So an example I'll give is as a heterosexual married man.
I definitely notice that many heterosexual married men have – very low levels of social connection.
That there's a lot of people who it is all through their wife and that even their social connections are kind of like scheduled, like play dates by their wife in some way.
So what advice would you have for people who are watching or listening where they are in a relationship and their partner has very low social health and they're worried about their partner?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Well, first of all, I want to double click on that idea, which is there's a lot of data suggesting that there's a men friendship kind of recession.
Some people are calling it.
Like there's a true problem for men in forming friendships and maintaining friendships.
And so that's something that I think a lot of people feel, where You know, where men are relying on their wives in a lot of cases to be that source of social connection.
I think one of the solutions for this can be men joining other community groups.
It's so important for us all to be part of groups that make us feel like we belong in a different context, even if it isn't like a one-on-one friendship.
So whether that's joining a sports team or taking an improv class or joining a book club or whatever that might be, that's of interest.
Doing something where you can come together with other men and do a shared activity, I think is one way that we need to kind of change the norms around this.
Because that takes the pressure off of like you need to develop this new deep friendship.
You know, like no, just go hang out with a group who you can see on a regular basis, where you have something in common.
Yeah.
I think that also is a low stakes way of really making it happen.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then what about if you are a group where there's some stigma and there's some prejudice and you may not have many other individuals around who identify the way you do around you?
So I'm thinking like if you're a trans person, or if you live in a rural area and you are, But also even if you were like I'm a dancer and there's no dance studio around me.
Yeah, totally.
It doesn't have to be these higher stakes social identifiers.
But I think often, like the queer community and the trans community, are extremely good at building community.
But what about for people who... are having trouble finding those people around them.
Well, this is where I think a good use case of technology comes up.
And I think this is one of the best examples of where we can find community and connection digitally.
And another example I would give for that is people with a rare disease, where maybe there's no one in their town who shares that disease, but they can connect with them online and find communities where they can share information and support each other on their health journeys.
And so that's, I think, kind of the best case scenario of us using technology to find support that we wouldn't be able to get in person otherwise.
Well, Kasley, thank you so much for being here.
It was really a pleasure talking to you.
Thank you.
This was so fun.
That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human.
Thank you so much to today's guest, Kazli Killam.
Her book is called The Art and Science of Connection.
I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book Humor Me about how to laugh more every day is available for pre-order now.
You can find info about my book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com.
How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are deeply connected to this audio.
On the TED side, we've got social savants Daniela Balarezo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohannini, Lainey Lott, Tansaka Sungmanivong, Antonia Lay and Joseph DeBrine.
This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who bond over reputable data sources.
On the PRX side.
We've got the audio friends you want in your corner Morgan Flannery, Nor Gil, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez.
Thanks again to you for listening.
Thanks for being a part of our social network here.
Please share this episode with a person who you are glad to be connected to.
We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human.
Until then, take care.
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