How To Stop Waking Up Feeling Tired: 7 Tips From a Harvard Researcher｜The Mel Robbins Podcast

Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbinspodcast.

It's just an honor to be able to spend some time with you today right now and I want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that could help you create a betterlife.

I just think that's super cool that you're putting yourself first and I have a question foryou.

When was the last time you had a great nightsleep?

You know the kind where you wake up and you jump out of bed and you feel so energized and refreshed andfocused.

Wouldn't it be great if you woke up tomorrow and you'relike,oh, I feel sogreat.

Well, I'm on a mission to help you feel that exact way because a renowned sleep scientist from Harvard is here in our Boston studios to prove to you that sleep is yoursuperpower.

And she has seven simple free and science back tips that will help you and the people that you love get better sleep and wake up feelingrefreshed,energized, focused and incontrol.

Doesn't that soundgreat?

I thoughtso. So let's dothis.

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Hey, it'sMal. Do you want another realreason?

I are always sotired. It's because you're not doing these simple things every single day based onresearch.

These simple things that you're going to learn today will help you get a great night sleep and wake up feeling refreshed energized focused and incontrol.

And that's why I cannot wait for you to meet doctor RebeccaRobbins.

She is going to change your life and the lives of everyone that you share this episodewith.

Because she's here to walk you through seven simple things that you can do every single day that will help you tap into this super power ofsleep.

Dr. Robbins is a world renowned expert and researcher on sleep and circadianrhythm.

She's a professor at Harvard Medical School and a research investigator in the division of sleep and circadian disorders and the departments of medicine and neurology at Brigham and Women's Hospital here inBoston.

And her research has been published in some of the most renowned medicaljournals.

And infact, the list of her research studies is solong.

I could read it toyou, but I don't want to put you tosleep.

That's we're going to do the oppositehere.

Okay. We're going to wake you up and energize you using herscience.

AndDr. Robbins name might sound familiar because a couple monthsago, I shared her research on sunlight in the morning and our wildly popular episode that we did called three small decisions that make you feelincredible.

Do this every morning after waking up and you love that episode so much you shared that episode with so many people in your life that I waslike, Holycow, I called upDr.

Robbins over atHarvard.

I asked her to cross the Charles River and come to our studios in Boston and guess what she ishere.

So let me tell you a little bit abouther.

Dr. Robbins received her PhD from Cornell University and completed postdoctoral training at both NYU and Harvard where she specialized in sleep and circadiandisorders.

She's the author of a book on techniques for how to get good sleep entitled sleep forsuccess.

And she's here today for you to share very simple tips for a better night'ssleep.

And if you do whatDr. Robbins teaches youtoday, you will feel moreenergized,focused, and in control of yourlife.

So please help me welcomeDr.

Rebecca Robbins to the Mel Robbinspodcast.

Thank you for havingme.

Well, I would love to start by having you speak directly to the personlistening.

If they take everything that you're about to share and teach us toheart.

What could you expect to change about your life if you follow the advice you're about to give us about sleeptoday.

We're going to cover some of my favorite tips and strategies that are evidence based and start tonight to get a better night'ssleep.

And if you can make a couple small changes and get a little bit more a little bit better qualitysleep.

I'mbiased. I'm a sleepscientist, but you will be amazed some of the findings include betterproductivity, our relationships improve our mental healthimproves.

And then into the longterm, our research is uncovering that our sleep every night plays an important role in the quality of our life as we age and also our risk for neural cognitivedecline.

So so many things can fall in line when we put sleep really high up on our prioritylist.

Oh, that'sgreat. You're here to tell us that there are small things that you can do to help you be a bettersleeper.

And before we jump in and we just start to unpack all the cool things that we can do that are in ourcontrol.

I wonder if we could just zoom out a little bit because when you're feeling tired and overwhelmed and just kind of beaten down by yourlife.

Can you just explain as a sleep researcher how working on sleep is going to impact every area of yourlife.

You hear a lot now about brainfog, aboutfatigue, about low energy levels and people seeking answersonline.

So it's almost like we're focusing on the symptoms instead of thecause.

And one of the driving forces of some of those symptoms that many people are experiencing is insufficient or poor qualitysleep.

Many of us are struggling two out of three Americans are not getting the sleep that they biologically need in a consistentmanner.

But inaddition, we have a problem of poor quality sleep anywhere between 20 and50% of Americans struggle with one of twodifficulties.

And that's either struggling to fall asleep or maintainsleep.

So waking up attwo, three o'clock in the morning and struggling to fall backasleep.

And so those struggles contribute to poor quality sleep in our research in our lab is shown that fewer than three in 10 Americans report waking up and reporting that their sleep isrestorative.

And that's what it's all about because if we're spending time in bed and it's not restorative sleep that we'regetting, what's thepoint?

But some of the behavioral tips and strategies that we're going to do are really how you unlock that restorative sleep that we're allafter.

Why do so many people wake up feeling sotired?

I think that it kind of comes back toconversations.

I've seen them on its own socialmedia,interpersonally, just it's almost part of the day to day narrative as asociety.

How are youtired? I hope one day we could flipthat.

But unfortunately when we dosay, I'm feelinggreat, I'm feeling wellrested.

That's not often looked as very positively in oursociety.

So I hope that one day thatchanges.

I think we're moving away from the notionof, youknow, I'll sleep when I'mdead.

We'refinally,finally, kind of collectively waking up to the importance of sleep as thepopulation.

We still have so far togo, but there used to be this ideaof, I'll sleep when I'mdead.

I'll rob from I'll take hours from my sleep and magically add it back to myday.

But that comes at a price and we can probably all attest tothis.

But if you wake up and haven't gotten enoughsleep, your body is operating well below itspotential, not only from our physicalhealth, our emotionalhealth, our cognitivehealth, so many documents when we're not getting enoughsleep.

But I think that when we can put sleep at the really high on our prioritylist, maybe even at the core of everything that we do and I'm not talkingabout, youknow, crazy sweeping changes that what's so exciting about sleep is a lot of these are really smallthings.

It's just cutting screens out a little bit earlier in yourevening, maybe having dinner a little bitearlier, doing a couple of the relaxation exercises that we're going to be talking about can offer a number of benefits in terms of our ability to fall asleep and get into the deeper sleep that supports our wakingsuccess.

Wow. That's sointeresting.

Dr.Robbins, why do all of these tips and evidence back interventions matter somuch?

What's so powerful aboutsleep?

It's just this greatequalizer.

But what's also so interesting is we never receive formal training about sleep really not inschool, even medical doctors receive only about20, 25 minutes in the average medical curricula aboutsleep, which is a hugeproblem.

You think about it because so many of us arestruggling.

We talked about some of thenumbers.

And so it creates this cultureof, youknow,well, ifI'm, youknow, my primary care provider doesn't fully understandsleep.

What might happen is a lotof, youknow, from ecological interventions and there is a time and a place forthat.

But what's so interesting about sleep is even in clinical trials that pitmeds, pharmacological intervention againstbehavior, what we find is that the behavioral change when we can successfully influence some of these strategies that we've talked today that actually wins out in terms of insomnia symptoms with people who are reallystruggling.

Then the medications overtime, which is soamazing.

I want to make sure the personal listeners just heardthat.

So in clinicalstudies, when you put medication up against the behavioral changes that we're talking abouttoday, that the behavioral changes overtime, beat insomnia and the insomnia drugs over and over and over again is not sopowerful.

It's really powerful because it tells us that small changes add up over time and thatyes, you are designed to and you can learn to sleep and get the rest that you deserve and wake up energized and it begins with thesesmall, smallchanges.

How to sleep impact the memory and thebrain,Dr.

Robbins. Sleep and the brain are really fascinating areas and it turns out that duringsleep, we not only kind of rinse and repeat and rehearse some of the memories that we took in from theday, but we also start to kind of put them into storage and figure out importantly where they should go in thebrain, which when you think about it is a fascinating exercise and so so important as we learn things were exposed to new things and the world aroundus, our brain does this amazing process at night during sleep of where should I file this away and importantly what memory should I hold on to and which can I let go because we're exposed to so muchinformation.

We learn so much now more than ever with our phones and ourpockets, the information that we're exposed to is enormous and our brains areamazing, but they couldn't it couldn't possibly store all of thatinformation.

And so there's this fascinating process called pruning that takes place during sleep where we try to figure out ourbrain, what memories can it let go of and which should it keep and where should those memories bestored.

And we really are starting to uncover and believe that dreaming is one of the ways that this happens so during during dreaming it's almost like the brain is throwing spaghetti against a wall to see youknow, okay the events from today where do they fit in our existing networks of thebrain.

So when we put sleep at the center so many positive outcomes come in terms of our learning our memory and for students academicexcellence.

So if I can like extract what you just said and try to give it back to you to make sure that I'm tracking I always think of this example of like a giant library so during the day the books are out and they've been given to people to read when you lay down in bed and you fall asleep that's when the books come back to the library and they get put on the proper shelf and that's yourbrain.

Learning how to file memories this pruningprocess.

Yes, I love thatanalogy.

Okay, and maybe figuringout, ooh that book wasn't very well read you know widely read so maybe we'll send it to a sisterlibrary.

Got it got so you also prioritize what's important which is so fascinating and then the other thing that you said that I think isreally, really important to understand oh mygod, I just had literally like a menopause brain fog thing I must not have gotten a great night's sleep last night because I had such a good thing that was where were you just talkingabout.

Learningmemory. See everybody you're not the only one with brain fog we're all here to learn how to sleep better but this is super important that you're basically saying that a critical part of learning and locking in a new skill or a habit happens duringsleep.

And so if you're having trouble making new habits stick or if you're studying for the series seven or you're studying for a standardized test or some exam coming up where you've got a huge presentation that you have coming up for work sleep and putting sleep at the center of how you're taking care of yourself helps you lock in the learning helps you perform better that's what you're saying based on the research exactly but when you walk into any college campus any corporate environment youonly.

And you almost hear the opposite people saying oh I'm going to stay up late to crank through this report I'm going to pull in all night or to study more to give myself more time let me you know take more hours in my day away from my sleep and add it back to my productivity really throws that notion on its head right that because all the research shows that when we prioritize sleep our learning improves our productivity improves the next day you wake up and you're able to accomplish what you would have otherwise done in a fraction of the time terrific that's superclear.

So we are going to jump into these seven strategies that you have that will help you become a better sleeper what is one of your favorite tips in order to get bettersleep.

One of my favorite tips for a great night sleep is this idea that routine is absolutelyqueen.

And we're really not meant to keep different sleep schedules as human beings falling asleep at 2a.m.

1 night 10p.m. the next so understanding the circadian rhythm helps us understand how vitally important consistency is in our sleep routines because then our brain and our body starts to understand when it should be tired and you know prepare for sleep and when it should be awake and then it allows ourselves to better organize ourselves and get a lot out of our sleep episode the best sleep comes when we're getting to keep our sleep times consistent so falling asleep at the same time and waking up as close to the same time aspossible.

So is that take away number one and climbing into bed so you have a consistent time that you're signaling that you're going to start the process of falling asleep and having your alarm ring at roughly the same time is one of the first things we want todo.

Absolutely. And I think we're slaves to our alarmclocks.

Yes, but we don't really talk about the wind downtime.

It's kind of like a fuzzy idea fuzzy gameplan.

It's not a okay 10 30 is when I'm going to start to powerdown.

I'm going to get off myphone.

I'm going to boil a cup of small cup of tea herbal tea and then start my bedtime ritual and wind downroutine, which is an essential part ofsleep.

We alwaysthink, youknow, youknow, now now's time now's that that feels pretty good forsleep, but it really it takestime.

So you are a world renowned sleep researcher andscientist.

What is your wind downroutine?

My wind down routine is one thing that I am very diligent about and it's notcomplex, but I'm very diligent about the time I do mybest.

The best key scenario is it's 830.

My boys are down and then I do acouple.

Maybe I clean up a tiny bit around thehouse.

I start to turn the lights off and then I go upstairs and I turn my phone off and there are days where I need to be working and plug backin, but I wash myface.

I take a shower and then I do one breathingexercise.

I sit across the like it on the ground in mybedroom.

I'm turning lights off as I kind of move into the bedroom and I do one breathingexercise.

I don't sit in thealarm, but I just kind of do it until I feel like I've gotten rid of that busymind, youknow, that has served me so well over the course of theday.

And sometimes that's five times onbusier, more stressfuldays.

Sometimes that's seven rounds ofthis, but it's the military breathingtechnique.

So I breathe in through my nose for a count offour.

I hold forseven. And then Iexhale, I'll purse my lips foreight.

And those times are longer than youthink,right?

The seven and the eight really like you're kind of fighting for the breath at theend.

And that's the benefit of thattechnique.

It restricts and restrains the breath and can help calm the heart rate and calm yourmind.

And now while I'm doingthat, thoughts are flying in because ofcourse, and what I forgot to do or I need todo.

And I come back to this idea ofno, notnow.

Now is mytime. I've done things for mystudents, mypartner, my kids allday.

And now is my time to restore andrelax.

And ifanything, any thoughts are still fighting to thesurface, I write those down at mynightstand.

So I've done thefour, seven eight technique and that I'm osy into my mybad.

I read a couple pages in abook.

I do progressive musclerelaxation, I clench and release every muscle group starting from the toes and I inhale clench and then exhalerelease.

And I really kind of add on to that something like something that I'm letting go heaviness or a thought that's not servingme.

And then I say a prayer and I go tosleep.

And it doesn't happen everynight, but that's my ritual and I use the word ritual purposefully because you want to cultivate a ritual ritual is something you do everytime.

And so it'sthoughtful.

It's, youknow,one,two,three,boom, sleep is next for youlistening.

What are the three things that you can do tonight and tomorrow and really institute as your ritual that you can ideally also take on the road when you travel and bediligent.

Try to do those every single night because then what the brain starts to understand is what comes next tosleep.

Do you find that in your research that the people that are struggling the most with sleep don't have this wind downroutine.

They're not diligent about this ritual and the consistency of it and practicing these steps that help you fall asleep and stayasleep.

So it's a greatquestion.

I think it comes back to this idea that we're so used togetting, youknow, what we wantedquickly, youknow, whether it's our food or a coffeeor, youknow, getting a subway or anUber.

We're used to things happening quickly when we want themto.

And our brain is hardwired to crave consistency tohave, youknow, to be able to expect what's to what's coming next by keeping our schedules consistent by giving our brain that sense ofnormalcy.

And thensleep, youknow, falling asleep faster into deeper sleep is more within ourreach.

What is the average amount of time that it takes to fall asleep and how when should we get out of bed because it's nothappening.

This is a greatquestion.

And I think a big area to promote awareness about because we think that we just should be able to crawl into bed and flip our brains off like a switch wrong sleep is aprocess.

And so falling asleep actually takes time and more than a lot of people realize even a healthy sleeper with no problems should take about 15 or 20 minutes to fallasleep.

And that's counter so many people willsay,oh, youknow, I can fall asleepanywhere.

As soon as I get into the airplane atLogan, I'mout, youknow, I'm snoring beforethat.

And literally we he hits the pillow and he'slike,oh, I'mlike,oh, youknow, I've got tolike, youknow, try to fall asleep while you're alreadysnoring.

And so he just like drops in like it's hisjob.

And I might be a little sleepdeprived.

I'd love to talk to him and make sure he's getting enoughsleep.

But if you're able to fall asleep rightaway, it's generally a sign that you're not getting enoughsleep.

Really? If you're starved for food and you sit down andyou, youknow, have a huge meal and keep eating andeating, it's probably because you're starved for sleep because it'snot, youknow, of course healthy to have enormousmeals.

And so same thing withsleep.

If you're starved forsleep, your brain is goingto, youknow, hopefully you're not in a place like driving a car or anything that would be safetycritical.

But if you're not getting enoughsleep, sleep will come because it's a biologicalnecessity.

And so when we go withoutit, our body works desperately to getit.

So 15 to 20minutes. And that's both for when you climb in at yourbedtime, when thebedtime, wind down routinehappens.

And that's also how long it might take you to drift back to sleep if you do wake up in the middle of thenight.

These are such goodquestions.

We just wrote a paper on how to help researchers kind of conceptualize these different steps because they're there acouple,right?

So the time that you want to be winding down atnight, maybe you're walking around yourhouse, your lights arelow, your lightingcandles,ideally.

Oh,God, that's not going on myhouse.

I'mlike, who didn't turn off thelights?

Where are thedogs? Did you lock thedoor?

It's like shut down ishappening.

I need to like play some music and lights fromcandles.

It islike, get through breadpeople.

I loveit. Imean, you're notalone.

So many ofus,right? Especially with kids and other movingparts.

But youknow, finding ways to draw a little inspiration from thesethings.

Look, I'm not saying let's all spend two hours in a candlelit environment before I think this is really what you're doing is you're taking aspotlight.

And you're highlighting something that is within your reach todo.

And when you understand that it is coming from a world renowned sleep scientist atHarvard.

That thinking about the way you turn yourselfdown.

So I think about I turn down thehouse.

We turn off all thelights.

I love that you lock thedoors.

The dogs run into their crates and get a littletreat.

You say goodnight to thekids.

You make sure the cats outside holdon.

Youknow, it soundswonderful.

Well, I have acandle. Youknow, I'm saying whatI, but there is this signaling thathappens.

Exactly. Andlook, that's actually part of your wind downroutine.

And maybe as you do thosethings, you're consciously looking at it asthat.

You're maybe slowing down yourbreath.

Youknow, when the dogs areout, youknow, you're consciously not on yourphone.

You're starting to switch into a differentmindset.

A one that's all about rest andrecovery.

And it's different than thedaytime,right?

The dayis, youknow, doact,execute, youknow, thinking and maybe at night time you draw inspiration from some of the kind of meditation worldof, youknow, thoughts come into the mind and then come back to thebreath.

Saytomorrow. And if those arefestering, those thoughts are festering a great addition to your bedtime routine is writing down anything that's on yourmind.

So powerful because sometimes it's this stupidest little things that keep usawake.

Oh, the dry cleaning got a calmmom, youknow, take out the take the dogs to thevet.

And there are things that you can only do sometimesduring, youknow, workhours.

And so writing themdown, it canthen, youknow, I suggest a stack of no cards because then that can also be your to do list those things that we're bothering you that you need to do fornow.

And a piece of paper and you can cross those off when you wakeup.

Oh, that'sgreat. So you have a stack of like little five by seven nocards.

And as you've got all those things that you'd normally ruminate about is you're laying in bed and you can't fallasleep.

And then you dump them in their littlehome.

And then you don't have to hold space in yourbrain.

Exactly. Sopowerful. And then you start to condition your brain tothink, notnow, now is my time forsleep.

One of the other levers that you say helps us sleep better is a consistentschedule.

What if you've got young kids or you got puppy that's waking you up or your work isinconsistent.

Like how do you create consistent sleep if something is interrupting your ability to doit.

This is such a greatquestion.

And there are so many of these right youngkids, youknow, dogswork.

I would encourage you to look at your weekly schedule and find the time that you can protect forsleep.

And that's going to be the time that your biological clock gets usedto.

And if you can get a little bit more time in themorning, an extrahour, go to bed a little bitearlier, an extrahour,wonderful.

But if you canprotect, say it's 12 to6.

If you canprotect, youknow, 11 to5, be diligent aboutthat.

And then think about either end of that being kind of things that you couldmove, but have maybe atime, youknow, if you're a young motherlistening, forinstance, and you'relike,look, I'mworking.

I havekids. How do I follow this ninehours?

Here's thething. That is thegoal.

If you can getthere,wonderful.

But if you can't give meseven, take that first time that you have to beup, you hit your target wake up time that should be your your alarm forevery, ideally every day of theweek.

Butagain, lifehappens.

We'll talk about how to catch up in amoment.

But that's your target wake uptime.

And then countback. Maybeagain, if it's only six that you can giveme, count backsix.

And even if you can't get enoughsleep, if you can get consistentsleep, here's the dirtysecret.

You're going to do much better than someone it's getting enoughsleep, but keeping differentschedules.

Wait,what? So hold on asecond.

If I can get lesssleep, butconsistently, so I'm consistently getting five or six hours ofsleep, I am going to do better than somebody who's getting eight or nine hours ofsleep, but an inconsistentschedule.

And we are talking about situations where the person is really fundamentally not able to get enoughsleep.

It's not what Irecommend.

But if you're a shiftworker, if you're a single mom with kids working twojobs, and you can't get eight hours of consistentsleep, if you can get five consistently or sixconsistently, I really want to move you towards six or seven for yourhealth, you're well being your ability to be around for thosekids, youknow, if it's caregiving that that's one of yourchallenges.

And really putting and beingdiligent, youknow, how many hours can I give myself because the closer toseven, the closer toeight, the longer you're going to be around the better the quality of yourheart, yourbrain, yourproductivity, yourrelationships, so many positive things when we can put sleepfirst.

But if you're lookingat, youknow, at aschedule, that istough.

Thenyes, consistency isking.

Why is consistency more important than the amount of time you'resleeping?

It comes back to our circadianrhythm.

Our body and ourbrain, we're not built as humans to keep differentschedules.

It didn't serve us from the standpoint ofevolution.

It served our ancestors from the standpoint of evolution to know when it would bealert.

So then I couldsay,okay, these animals are up at thistime.

And I can hunt for these animals and forge forthese, youknow, berries at thistime.

And then I prepare my meal and the heat of theday.

Youknow,these, it's kindof, youknow, so silly tocompare, youknow, but kind of helps you understand just how important it is and how we're really built and takes a lot of time to change our physiology as aspecies.

And our technology has really outpacedour, youknow, kind of biologicalrhythms, which are all about consistency and keeping our sleep times the same poweringdown.

Youknow, these are things that we don't have the hackfor.

Well, I'm what I love is there things that you cando.

And basically it makes sense because if you are a young mom or a shift worker or something's going on with yourparents.

And so you're in the middle of a period of your life for things are reallyinconsistent.

That creates its own level ofstress.

And so being worried about how much sleep you're going to get or this set and the otherthing, if you can focus on the five or six hours that you can pretty much guarantee that lowers a little bit of stress because now you're focused on what you cancontrol.

So it makes a lotsense. What if your partner has a different schedule or snores like crazy or like is just a human furnace and keeping youawake.

Do you recommend that you sleep in a differentroom?

This is such a goodquestion.

And if you have a partner sleep is a socialbehavior.

It's kind of funny to think of it thatway, but it really is what do you mean bythat?

You co-sleep largely if you're in arelationship.

So it's a social it's a socialphenomenon.

And so if your partnersnores, it's kind of probably interrupt the quality of yoursleep.

And so I would encourage you to thinkabout, youknow,again, kind of putting sleep at the centergranted.

I ambiased. This is what I do for aliving.

But when we can do that and really saycritically, how can we optimize forsleep?

That will improve yourrelationship, improve your productivity atwork, how you care for yourchildren, so many positivethings.

And then you have to askyourself, am I creating lasting memoriesby, youknow, sleeping together with mypartner?

This term isactually, this is term to sleepdivorce.

What about to talk about sleepingseparately?

Sonegative. I couldn't agreemore.

I have some friends who arelike,look, it's a sleepmarriage.

It literally is how I'm able to stay in thismarriage.

And I should be friends with Fred and then a sleep in like we need to makethis.

Decorian era in terms of the name ofit.

That's what people did in the Victorianera,right?

And youknow, even earlier thanthat.

And very wealthyindividuals, because they hadmistresses.

But I thought that's why they were not sleepingtogether.

So you recommendthat. Just ask yourself as acouple.

How can we be the best possible couple that we canbe?

How can we be the bestparents?

Youknow, 16-year careers love eachother.

And you can do that with goodsleep.

And if your sleep is interrupting eachother, maybe onesnoring, maybe one keeps a differentschedule, one's a shiftworker.

If you're able to sleepseparately, whynot?

Andagain, doing away with this term sleepdivorce.

I think we should coin sleep marriageinstead.

Becauseagain, you're just not creating lasting memories when you'resleeping.

And sometimes it's nice tocuddle, but you could do that and then slip into your separate bedroom where you're going to get the sleep that will support your personal wakingsuccess.

Andagain, allow you to thrive in thatrelationship.

Now, there are some people for whom that will bechallenging.

Maybe you don't have a gastroum that youcould, youknow, oust your husband or your partner to goto.

So if that's a situation foryou, think about the ways that you could buffer against that disruption that your partner imposes on yoursleep, like a pillow wall and your blood pillowwall, ear plugs and ear plugs that block against 60 decibels arehigher.

So it's just a specific type of yourplug.

And they have them at thedrugstore, youknow, every everydrugstore.

Whitenoise,there, youknow, widely available look into one ofthese.

It creates kind of a background level of noise that then can dampen the impact of intermittentnoise, which is often the challenge right at someone getting up to an alarm clock or someone'sboring.

I'm not tryingthat. That's a goodone.

Absolutely. You knowwhat, I want to take a quick break because I know you have so much more to teach us to share withus.

And so let's pausehere.

Let's hear a quick word from oursponsors.

They allow me to bring you the extraordinary sleep scientists fromHarvard,Dr.

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Welcomeback. It's your buddy Mel and you and I are here with the extraordinary doctor Rebecca Robbins the renowned sleep scientist and professor at Harvard MedicalSchool.

What is a circadianrhythm,Dr.

Robbins circadian rhythm and refers to systems in the brain and in the body that operate and oscillate and approximate 24 hourcycle.

And that's because we on earth have a pattern of light and darkness that is 24 hours induration.

And so over hundreds of thousands of years we've adapted our internal biological mechanisms to that 24 hour day sleep is one suchrhythm.

So there's times during the day where we're awake and then times where we're asleep now the reason this beneficial is largely evolutionary innature.

So when it's dark out we can rest andrecover.

And when it's light out we can be you know operating at our peak you know working commutingetc.

And so our our physiology is adapted to life on earth and our internal systems are governed by this tiny little region of the brain called the super chiasmatic nucleus we call it the kind of central pacemaker of the circadian rhythm that almost made me want to go super calibrativeright.

So that's the central pacemaker of this this biological clock that we have inside us and what's so interesting is virtually every part of the body operates in a circadian like fashion firing at sometimes and then relaxing and unwinding at othertimes.

Even down to the cellular level believe it or not so this system this internal circuitry is not meant to make quick changes hundreds of years ago we weren't flying on airplanes all around theworld.

So understanding that that internal system really it's like I kind of like to liken it to a big piece of machinery from World War one that just moves like slowly and really when light changes in our environment it's maybe a couple seconds a day not much more but we fly in airplanes you know we hop in airplanes and fly to new time zones and wonder why we just struggle with brain fog with sleep and it's because there's a mismatch between our internal biological rhythms and the new pattern of light and darkness and the social time so the clock on the wall when you land in London is of course going to be different than your internal biological clock so understanding these principles can better set us up for success when it comes to oursleep.

So I have a couple questions this is fascinating first of all so thank you for breaking this down one of the things that you also recommend is getting light in the morning why does this matter when it comes to your circadian rhythm and being a better sleeper so that tiny brain region that we talked about whether circadian rhythm is house is located right behind the eyeball in the brain so the brain takes an information about the presence or absence of light through the eye and then that travels along the optic chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super 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chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chias to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chias to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chias to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chias to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chiasm to the super chias and then you hit your target wake up time for the week again sleeping in an hour absolutely fine but much more than that tried try to avoid but then count back give yourself at full nine hours because our biological need for sleep is individual some people do very well on seven and some people do much better on nine and it's in part genetically kind of hard wired and so if you had two parents that were longer sleepers you're truly sleeping eight or nine hours night you might be a longer sleeper and then if you had two short sleeping parents you might be lucky and really truly only need closer to seven but if you count back nine that could maybe add a little bit of time for your wind down routine okay and so those nine hours countdown and that's your target fall asleep time or I should say get ready for bed time got it I want to make sure that you hear this because this is the kind of advice that as you're listening or watching us somebody's going to be like blah blah blah blah blah okay and I know but this is critical because if you you got to stop and think about what is the wake up time that sets me up to be able to do some of the things thatDr.

Robbins is going to tell us based on the research makes us a better sleeper because we are learning that better sleep begins with what you do once you wake up so she's saying once you know your wake up time and I'm going to do some math here because I think it's really important let's say it's just sixa.m.

That's what you need sixa.m.

She says count back nine hours and so that means where are we ninep.m.

right and that is the time that you now need to start the wind down routine based on research that will help you start to get the sleep that you need so that when you wake up you feel refreshed you aren't so tired you got the benefit of sleep you know I I love what you're teaching us because this is within all of our power if we choose to follow it and we choose to try it and so we've talked about circadian rhythm and consistency was a huge takeaway and we've talked also about how one of the big things that we need to do is get this light first thing in the morning or that blue spectrum light if you need to get it from a different source if you're not getting outside can we talk more about light the rest of theday.

It's a really great question morning light exposure is is helpful and good but actually getting exposure all across the typical day is finally important actually in the afternoon is just as important as the morning so I didn't mean to privilege the morning over the afternoon but instead getting exposure to fresh air and natural light over the course of the day is extremely important to help our body get information okay we're still in the wake phase it's not quite sleep yet and then going into darkness is equally is important as exposure to light during the day because that absence of light does the conversation it allows for the secretion of melatonin for the brain to say we're approaching bedtime let's start to power down and so unfortunately many of us have bright blue light emitting devices all around us not only our light bulbs but also the devices that we carry around with us you know our smartphones our tablets our computer screens now in a perfect world we would be able to unplug even give me 15 minutes for bedtime and it starts mall if you find that you're a little bit addicted to your phone it's hard to put it down start with maybe five minutes if you could swipe swipe to airplane mode amazing I think there's something also powerful about that to say I'm off for the night I might be receiving messages but they can wait until the morning and think about all day long we do things for other people in our careers and our personal lives we care for children we care for older adults we spouses you know we help support people in the workplace and that another mindset is you know this is my time at night for me and really consciously purposefully turning your phone off so if you find yourself a little bit addicted to your phone start small try just five minutes before you want to be falling asleep switch your phone off try to give yourself at least a little bit of a buffer and then maybe work up to 15 maybe work up to 30 minutes now if you're telling me look I'm a student I have work to do I'm a busy professional I have stuff I need to be doing up until the minute I fall asleep I would implore you just to ask yourself is there anything off screens that I can do at night do all your screen work during the day and if it's reading a couple emails even and you can print them out or reading a book or you know any anything that you can shift from your work day into non screen time and do that at night so I think there's even to meet a way to meet you know even the busiest of people where they areDr.

Robbins you're nice I'm not going to be nice like I think that's a bunch of garbage that you have to be on your phone or on your laptop until you collapse into bed as if you're just going to collapse or fall asleep in bed with your laptop open because you don't have time between the night and you're going to sleep complete and utter garbage I really agree with you and you can't the most busy person honestly if you can't put your phone on airplane or stick it in the other room and give yourself five measly minutes then don't be coming here and complaining about how tired you are like that that's the thing that you have to understand is that the research is very clear and it's in it's going to be it's going to be very simple to put into your life but you've got to want to get a good night sleep you've got to want to stop waking up tired and exhausted and so really stop and think if this is you that you're that addicted to work or that addicted to your phone that you cannot carve out five minutes you're never going to change you're going to have a good night sleep and so I also am going to come back to the math because this is why it becomes really important to get very specific with yourself if you're going to wake up at six and you're going to back up the nine hours likeDr.

Robbins is telling you to do and she's also saying you got to have a buffer you got to have a buffer from the last screen time to when you're going to start to sleep then maybe you need to put an alarm in your phone at eight forty five because that's the time you got to stop looking at the darn thing and so anyway you're nice I am not I'm just like you can't complain about something and expect it to change you got to do something totally and it comes back to this idea that could sleep actually does take a little bit of work and it's not going to come easy but we get so frustrated when we're like I'm here I'm trying I'm doing everything really critical I love your points about you know what really be honest with yourself right are you do you really need to be on social media for 20 minutes before you don't you got to and so that like and that's the thing like I know we're all tired and we and there's there's periods of your life where very real things going on that are beating you up and I think for most of us most of us need to have a moment of honesty with ourselves that we are making ourselves exhausted we are giving our attention and our brain power over to the phone and social media and all of these screens and we are not taking the wind down routine seriously and so if you are serious about wanting to feel more energized if you're serious about getting better sleep you got to try what doctor robins is telling you and you're not going to like it because you're used to just kind of going through the thing it's not sexy you know like I'm not here to say tranquil a couple glasses of wine and then you know spend some time on social media but what really works when it comes to sleep is old school stuff it's getting off of our screens it's powering down you know making a cup of tea I love the Swedish tradition of of Hoga this idea of you know warm cozy time before bed the Swedish culture has a word for this and I think as Americans we think you know I'm just going to write reports I'm going to send emails until the moment that I want to be falling asleep and then so many of us wonder why we struggle but even just a couple minutes and then maybe build up to 10 minutes and then maybe 15 and maybe 30 off of your phone or your screens or your laptop before bedtime can do a world of good because that's all those devices are engaging the prefrontal cortex the planning the thinking part of the brain and in many times giving you exposure that mimics the sun right when you want to be falling asleep so it's this cocktail of sleep inhibitors really when you think about it you know doctor Robbins what I love about everything that you're teaching us today is we can do it like every single human being listening can try these proven strategies and in fact as you've been listening you have that friend I know I have that friend who is always complaining that they're tired send them doctor Robbins let her empower your friend or your family member to do these simple things that will help them get a better night sleep because that's going to change your life and that's how you can help them change their life already let's hear a quick word from our amazing sponsors and don't you dare go anywhere because Dr Robbins and I are going to be waiting for you after a short break with even more research about how to get a better night sleep starting tonight stay with us so I got a question for you are you a shoes on or shoes off in the house kind of person let me tell you I'm a shoes off especially once I saw like how much dirt and gross stuff comes into the house because of your shoes on well my husband Chris he knows better but since he got his new sneakers from sockony you would think those puppies were glued to his feet I mean he wears them walk in the dogs he wears them running errands he wears them all day long at his desk in the kitchen even in the bedroom I've never seen this man so obsessed with his sneakers but I don't blame him sockonies 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yourself it doesn't wake you up because some people will maybe fall asleep to that but that maybe they don't have a timer on and then when you know there's a louder part of the show it'll wake them up and then they'll go back to sleep and people say oh no no it's fine it's what I do every night but we really want to work towards is a night of uninterrupted sleep what happens if you get up in the middle of the night like I used to all the time 214 was my number 214 mail robins up got to go the bathroom what happens if you're up in the middle of the night and I know I'm not supposed to look at my phone but I would pick it up and I'd use it as a flashlight and then I'd get to the toilet Dr Robbins and I'd flip that sucker over and next thing you know I'm surfing social media checking out text messages while I'm going the bathroom in the middle of the night what is that blue light exposure do when you look at your phone once you wake up and also kind of the the wrote procedure of waking up whether it's in the middle of the night whether it's in the morning and reaching right for your phone it's kind of like an automatic response right that we've conditioned ourselves to do a couple suggestions for that try and again this kind of comes back to the idea of these old school tricks but a night light in your hallway sensor activated night lights not only for your hallway but maybe also they have them for the rim of your toilet just like a little bit gross but that allows you to if you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night you know get there well does it make it harder to fall asleep if you look at your phone when you wake up in the middle of the night so the reason I bring up lights is that can guide you and and reduce your reliance on your smartphone to get to where you need to go yes when it comes to picking up the phone though maybe not for you know the flashlight function but just to maybe see if you got any messages you're like I'm up I might as well be productive or board or I can't fall asleep so I'm just going to look at my phone done all of these things coming back to that idea of working towards consolidated sleep so when you get up the next time I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I will go to the bathroom and I will go to the bathroom and I will go to the bathroom and I will go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to go to the bathroom and I It's one of the biggest myths people often will tell us on oursurveys.

Oh, youknow, if I can if I stay inbed, I'll get somesleep.

It'sbetter,right? Then if I got out of bed wrong because we start to toss andturn, we start to increase the temperature of our bedroomenvironment, which is notgood.

And then we start to identify our bed is a place where we experienceinsomnia, we wake up at214,right?

And we start to tell ourselves these stories and then they become a reality because now you're trying yourself that this is what I doit.

Exactly. You're classically conditioning yourbody.

You're classically conditioning yourbody.

You're classically conditioning your body and then pulling on some of the levers of change that we're going to talkabout.

Try themall. Let me cut out caffeine and see if thathelps.

Let me cut outalcohol. Let me see if thathelps.

Let me move my dinner three hoursearlier.

Let me add a meditation technique or routine to my power downritual.

But trying all of these kind of the sweet and the constellation of healthy sleepstrategies.

That's the secondstep.

Now if you've done all of that and really doneit.

Because some people arelike,Oh, youknow, I've triedthat.