There are some stories out there that we hear that reminds us how much a person can change when they make the decision to change.
My guest today is Doug Bopst, a former felon turned award-winning author, speaker and transformation coach.
He's also the host of the Adversity Advantage podcast, where he's interviewed some of the world's top thinkers and leaders.
Doug's story didn't start from success.
It started in a place where most people wouldn't even come back from.
And that moment became the start of a completely different story.
In this conversation, we talk about taking ownership, rebuilding confidence and what it really takes to create lasting transformation.
The kind that starts within and changes everything around you.
Let's jump in.
Your whole brand, the book, the podcast and potentially the book is going to be titled Adversity Advantage.
So tell us what that means to you.
You know, growing up.
I used adversity to my complete disadvantage.
And as a result of that, I wound up incarcerated on felony drug charges.
I became a drug addict.
I had 21 jobs at the time I was 21, broken relationships, like the whole nine yards.
And so the adversity advantage the brand has become almost a playbook of what not to do.
And from the show, from interviewing people on not only how people have turned hard times into good times, but also bringing on experts like yourself to talk about some of these hard themes relationships communication, wellness and that types of things to be able to like, help them navigate like those, without messing their life up more.
Because I did that as a kid.
I messed my life up with drugs, selling drugs.
And these, those bad habits compounded which eventually led to me being incarcerated which, oddly enough, is where I finally figured out how to use my adversity to my advantage.
Hmm.
Your story, Doug, is so powerful.
And we've been friends for a few months now.
And sometimes I know this version of you.
And it's hard for me to imagine the other version of you.
But you're the same person, but profoundly different.
How would you describe that shift?
I mean, when I was younger, I was unconfident.
I had no goals.
I had no real moral compass.
I was scared.
I was frightened all the time.
I was manipulative.
And I was really broken, man.
I had no self-esteem.
I thought something was wrong with me.
And you talk about tough conversations.
When I was in jail, there was a conversation that completely shifted my life and my persona.
And it was from my cellmate.
My cellmate in jail was this guy who looked like a more jacked version of Brad Pitt from the movie Fight Club.
And he saw me and just he saw that I was like completely unconfident, shoulders rounded forward.
At the time I was 21 years old.
I'd just been sentenced on felony drug charges.
I was in jail for a few months and I was also an opiate addict.
So the first thing I had to do was detox cold turkey of Oxycontin.
And he's like, when you get through that, you're going to work out with me.
I remember sitting there, man.
I was like, man, there's no way I'm going to work out with this dude.
This guy is really intimidating.
He's jacked.
I'm like a model for Pillsbury.
Just 40% body fat, no muscle, no strength, no confidence.
Shortly after that, we had a conversation in the cell where that again shifted my life.
And it was like, it went like this and I'll, I'll give like the PG version of it.
But you know he, like any good coach who was asking me potential coach, I should say at this time he was asking me like questions.
You know he's like Hey, why are you in jail?
What happened?
And I'm blaming people for my problems.
He's like, why, Or did you get addicted to drugs?
Ask me all these questions, and I'm blaming everybody but myself.
He looked at me, and what I wanted to hear was him to be like, it's okay, Dougie.
The world's against you.
You had a pretty bad upbringing.
Because that story that I had was sellable to a lot of people.
I was bullied in school.
I, my parents were divorced at a time where a lot of parents weren't splitting up around me.
I was cut from all the teams.
I was made fun of a lot.
So the story was there that I had a quote unquote rough upbringing.
However, he didn't want to hear that.
He said, stop being a victim.
He said, You're blaming everybody for your problems but yourself.
He said, you chose to get here.
He said, there's plenty of people that grew up just like you that aren't in jail.
Right, Doug?
And I'm like, yep.
He said, you have two choices.
Be a man.
Fix yourself.
Look yourself in the mirror and say it's up to you.
Or be a victim.
You'll cry in the corner and say, well, it was me.
And that shift was what I needed, because it was at a time when the drugs had mostly at least, started to come out of my system.
And I was just ready to like hear that advice and that that right then and there I decided to give exercise a try and got down um, to do a pushup.
Couldn't do a pushup even for my knees could barely walk over down the steps there because of my just lack of conditioning, if you will.
And with his, my cellmates, help and motivation, training me in there every single day.
I was able to run a mile and do a set of 10 real pushups by the time my 90-day sentence was over.
And as somebody who's now been a fitness professional for 15 years or so, it's embarrassing to admit where I was kind of where I started.
And it's also...
I have a unique perspective because I've dealt with so many people and their goals and I've had my own fitness goals over the years that accomplishing that, what has fundamentally been like the number one thing, that is, it is built the most self-confidence in myself like that small transformation.
Cause it felt like.
It felt like I just climbed Mount Everest at that time because of where I was in my life.
And I think that people mistake you know confidence in that they have to get to like where you or I are now in order to like feel confident, right.
Where you you see some of the accolades and you see the platform and but really I believe like most of the self-confidence comes from, like the hard times you accomplished and persevering when it didn't make sense.
And it's like those stacking those small wins early on.
Cause that's what like builds confidence up.
You know like it's like, it's like compound investing right.
They say like if you start investing money in your twenties, you know you will.
We will make way more money, like with investing less, than if somebody who starts at 40 and investing in an invest like way more per month or whatever.
Right.
Same kind of thing with self-confidence.
So, um, That conversation literally changed my life.
Yes.
And again, it shows the power of these conversations.
The best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.
And that was a hard one because it confronted you with the reality that you had choice.
And I'm wondering if you could put yourself back into that moment.
Before this conversation, did you feel like you had choices?
Not really.
I think like I had realized that my life was going to end up the way it was going.
And so I feel like my choices were already made up for me.
Meaning, you know, I felt the world was against me.
I had buried several of my friends, funerals for addiction related issues, substance related issues.
I had. blown every opportunity that came my way.
I'd made all these mistakes.
So I mean, I knew that, like I knew I had some control, but I also had this idea that I was going to be a failure.
And most of my life was already made up for me anyway, because of the way it was going.
So I didn't think that I could make different decisions.
And it wasn't until like, I started doing those pushups in jail and I felt like my mind shift a little bit and I started to achieve certain things that I was like man, like I can choose differently.
I don't have to like use substances to numb the pain anymore.
I don't have to run away from my problems.
I can actually be somebody.
And you know, i think most of my success and my confidence came from again like those early days of digging myself out of that mud so I could get some sense of an equilibrium.
You know what I mean?
To where it was like even, and then I could make a decision from there.
But back then, I mean, I knew, obviously I knew what I was doing.
I wasn't like blacked out all the time.
However, I also was in this massive victim mindset where I had assumed that the world was against me and, no matter what, that's the way that things were going to play out.
Yeah.
So so it's almost like you knew that choices were available, but you didn't have confidence in your ability to make those choices and then make life better.
Yeah.
And it's like the old thing.
It's like.
People, you hear people all the time say, well, what's the point?
It's not even going to work out.
It won't, I won't be able to do it.
So what's the point of trying?
I mean, that's how I felt was I'm not going to put the drugs away.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
It's more like just objectively looking at it.
What I've learned about the mind and stuff is that, you know, as a as a guy growing up, it was like I felt that my my worth was built on my athletic ability, which I sucked at sports.
So there was nothing there.
My looks were, And I had a significant amount of body fat, so there was nothing there.
My success, I wasn't successful.
And so that compounding with everything else reiterated in my mind that I was a loser.
And so I developed that perception that carried on with me for a good amount of time.
Um, which then impacted every other decision I made in my life.
And it wasn't until like, I had that again that shift when I was in jail that I realized that things didn't have to be that way.
And you know I had to, I had to.
I've had to learn a lot of, like you know, lessons you know since then but um, I didn't have the confidence to make those choices.
And my identity and who I saw myself as a person just automatically made decisions for me.
Mm-hmm.
It's so fascinating, Doug, to see this because –
Again, I know this version of you.
And so you are a person who's very confident and who gets things done.
So determined.
But everything is done with intentionality.
But what's interesting, though, is that it was learned.
You had to intentionally push yourself to change, and it seems like a big part of this was getting to a point where you could actually see evidence and prove to yourself that you could do the things that you previously were telling yourself that you couldn't do.
Yeah, and then, and affirmations I know, I mean they're kind of controversial, I guess these days in a way.
And I say that because because I think that they are important.
You have to change the way you talk to yourself and the way you speak in order to achieve things.
However, you can't just speak your way into confidence.
I don't think you have to get things done.
I think confidence is built.
Again, by getting through the hard times and by compounding small wins.
And if you're not compounding small wins and you're just saying you're going to be great, there's going to be a level of cognitive dissonance that exists.
So you know, making those decisions and starting to accomplish things was what improved my self-worth.
What gave me a nice buffer was telling myself that I was no longer a loser.
Like that helps.
Right.
But that what actually reiterated things and what I kind of built the formula was the pushups and achieving things and doing things I didn't think I could do.
Like that was what put the smile on my face, because I I still vividly remember, like telling myself you know good things.
And on the, the, My environment didn't support what I was saying.
It's like if you're broke and you have $50 million of debt.
I'm just using this as a very extreme example to hit home the point.
And you're like, oh, I'm going to generate wealth.
I'm going to be wealthy.
And it's going to be like, what?
No, you're $50 million in debt.
How are you going to believe that?
And so it's just about being realistic and using positive mindset and affirmations, and whatever flavor of that stuff you want to call it, to keep yourself grounded enough to make those decisions.
Does that make sense?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And yeah, the thing is, there is so much conflicting data on affirmations.
But the main thing is, understanding who you are.
At the end of the day, we can read whatever studies we want, but it's our responsibility to conduct our own studies on ourselves to see what works for us.
Because, you know, you're right.
The affirmation alone isn't going to get it done.
You have to then take action like the affirmation should lead to some behavior change.
And then the behavior change will lead to the change that you want to see in the world.
It has to be both, you know, and with one thing that's interesting was because people were calling you a loser before that, and then you believed it, and then you got to a point where you're saying I'm not a loser.
Did you start to...
Did you start to consider think of yourself as something else in particular, or did you?
Was it just like?
Was it enough to say I'm not this?
I think once my decisions started to change.
And I started to have some self-confidence.
I had realized that I was lying to myself because I was starting to achieve things like surviving jail.
I mean, obviously, jail changes anyone, but it really changed me in a very positive way.
And I know the system gets a bad rap, and I definitely think we need some reform there.
However, I know for me, it really helped me.
And I also got lucky that I had this guy, my cellmate, who invested in me and helped me through that time.
But when I got out...
I just remember I had spent enough time behind bars and clean that I was more level-headed.
I firmly believe a part of me literally died when I was in jail and that I was somehow reborn.
I'm not trying to speak like I have some sort of God complex.
It's more like I don't know how else to describe it, Kwame.
I don't.
That part of me.
When I got out of jail, I would look at pictures of that guy and I didn't recognize him at all.
I was like, who is this person?
And I fought, man, tooth and nail when I was in jail for myself.
And I still get emotional thinking because I remember like I was the guy that just would never stand up for myself.
I would never put my foot down when something was wrong.
And behind bars, I finally did that and made that move for myself.
And when I did that, I kind of was like, man, I never want to be that guy again before.
And so I rode that euphoric wave and reinvested that energy into more fitness stuff, into more goal setting stuff.
And I just rode this momentum for a period of time that got me pretty far out of the mud.
I ended up changing my friends.
It became this thing where I was around my friends I was hanging out with.
And again, these aren't bad people.
And they just were people that I couldn't physically spend time with anymore if I wanted to get my life together.
And it was like being on an awkward first date or an awkward business meeting where it's very still.
You feel disconnected.
It was at that time, I was like, man, this is it.
I'm more focused on how I'm going to beat my next chicken breast and get some push-ups in.
These guys are more focused on other things.
I made a decision to Pretty much cold turkey, cut my friends out, which was really hard at the time because I had spent so much time with them.
And you run the risk of people saying stuff about you or accusing you of being too good for them and all the things that normally can happen.
But I needed to do that.
I needed to escape the rat race and not put myself at risk of going back to jail.
And I'm really thankful that I did that because, you know, here's the thing.
I got really lucky when I went to, when I went to court when I was I was 20 of September of of Oh eight the judge gave me a nice break which I didn't really understand the value of until later on in life.
But, you know, he sentenced me to fight.
He convicted me of the felony with possession with intent to sell marijuana.
And, um, sentenced me to five years in jail, but suspended everything but 90 days.
Give me five years probation, bunch of community service.
And he said, Doug, like you're young, you're 20.
This felony conviction is going to haunt you for the rest of your life.
He said If you do everything I ask you to do, you don't miss probation, you don't fail drug tests, you do all this stuff.
I'll take the conviction off your record at the end of the five years and give you probation before judgment.
So.
Again, but back then, I didn't think I was going to make it that far.
I was like, huh, it's 2008.
Isn't the world supposed to end in 2012?
I haven't been able to stay away from drugs this long.
All that stuff's going through my head, right?
But you know, I was able to do it with the help of my cellmate.
And obviously if I hadn't run into him in jail, I probably would be dead right now.
That being said, I also had to make a lot of hard decisions on my own that I could have easily not made.
You know, getting rid of my friends pursuing fitness more um, Just changing the way I saw the world, forgiving people working on myself.
All these things were incredibly challenging to do, especially when you're in your early 20s and you're at the peak of your party career.
And you can still get a free pass for figuring your life out.
I made a hard decision. to like completely shift got into personal development, super young.
I was always like one of the youngest people that the youngest like in these networking groups and at these events.
And I, I wish it became a sponge for information, a sponge.
But it came from getting the self-confidence from those early wins that compounded.
Yes.
And it goes back to that, the compounding effect of taking action that leads to confidence.
It's that positive cycle of confidence action.
You see the result.
You feel good about that.
That makes you more likely for you to take action.
And then those small wins turn into bigger wins.
And it shows that inside of all of us, we have this capacity.
We just need to discover it.
We need to find our own personal pathway to getting there.
And something that you talked about that I think is so important is the importance of environment.
And your example is extreme, obviously.
Because you were incarcerated.
So that forced you to get away from those bad influences.
But then that allowed you to discover that you could make better choices.
But then when you had the opportunity to get back, get out, you probably saw those same friends.
Now it's your responsibility to set those boundaries.
And you see so many people who can get back on track for a little bit.
Maybe they go to another – maybe they go to school in a different state.
Maybe they move or something like that.
Or like you, they go to they they're incarcerated.
But then when they get out, they go back to the same friend group.
They go back to making those same choices and then they end up back in the same problem.
So can you talk more about how important environments and relationships are as you are going on this journey?
Yeah.
And real quick, I want to kind of reinforce this point about confidence.
I just thought of a really good example.
It's like, you know, I know you're a big workout guy, too.
Do you feel more confident when you tell yourself you're super strong, or do you feel more confident after you get back from the gym?
Oh, well, I feel more I feel more accomplished when I get back to the gym.
Just saying I'm strong.
I know I need to prove that I'm strong.
Right.
And that's the that was my point was like you, by doing the thing, you feel more accomplished than by just saying the thing yeah um, so when it comes to environment, like your question was like how i the importance of environment, how that's impacted my success and stuff yeah, and so environment's a big thing, because growing up when i was doing and selling drugs, Everyone around me was doing and selling drugs.
So I thought that that was normal.
I thought it was normal behavior to put copious amounts of substances up my nose and sell drugs, because that's what everyone else was doing.
And so whenever somebody would come at me and hold me accountable, I was always deflecting what everyone else is doing.
And that was true.
However, it kept me in this environment, this bubble, if you will, where I was not holding myself accountable.
And then, when I shifted out of my old friends like I talked about before, I developed this mindset I guess by accident that I wanted to spend time with people that had common futures and not common paths.
I wanted to align myself with people that were going in the same direction that I was going.
And I developed this thing because I struggle just like everyone else with like all these people.
I have a common past with them.
I partied with them.
I hung out with them like they have to be my friends forever.
And it's like no, I want to make this shift to say I want to be, have people that are around me, that have things in common with where I'm going.
And I kind of adopted that and then thought about like, where is it that I want to go?
Well, depending on the time of my life, like you know, it was like I either wanted to be a become a better trainer.
I wanted to be healthier.
I wanted to be a better podcast.
I was like, whatever it was.
And I was like, where do I find those people that I can be a sponge to?
I'm a learner, man.
I'm not afraid to ask for help.
I'm not afraid to say, hey, I don't know what I'm doing here.
Can you please help me?
And I think people respected that.
And I've had a lot of help from people that were kind of more successful than me in whatever you know profession I've been in.
And I think it's because I just kind of went there and just said, hey, like, I need some help.
Like, not like, can you do this for me?
But can you please, like, give me some advice.
And then I, when they give me advice, I do it.
And they're like, Oh, like this guy actually was serious.
He wasn't just like, you know, going to waste my time.
And, and I think people really admired that.
And then as you know, outside of that, There's a couple themes of the people that I spend time with.
We don't have to agree on everything necessarily politically or have the same type of workout program.
But there's things that there's common denominators.
I love hanging out with people that are open-minded, that can have like great conversations and, you know, can think for themselves.
I like spending time with people that are health oriented and personal development focused, and people that you know are focused on what they're doing to to make the world a better place, that are kind of like there's.
There's themes of people that I like to spend time with.
There's certain like things that I don't do.
Like if somebody I know is somebody who's doing a lot of drugs, like I'm not going to spend time with them.
Like there's certain things that I'm if they're um, you know, a charlatan or somebody that I know is um, doesn't have integrity.
I guess the fastest way to get out of my life is I value integrity a lot.
And um, like I just you know, it's like I hear, like whenever I hear someone like cheating on their spouse, like I immediately immediately, lose respect for that person.
And Um, and it just goes back to an integrity thing.
Again, I think that's like a a good example.
With that that I will.
Like, what are you going to do to me?
You know what I mean?
Right.
So and there's just other things that I've implemented too, where you know, I also like to give back and try to help people that are less fortunate than me in ways that I can.
And I think being of service is a tremendous asset and it can help get you through hard times.
And it can also like not let you forget where you came from.
Like I have my workout plan.
You might be able to see it on the third shelf down frame, next to a pile of the stack of books beneath.
That's the workout plan.
My cellmate gave me when I left jail and I keep it there because I never want to forget where I came from ever.
Like I never want to forget what I was thinking.
I never want to forget where I was before I came, became this person.
Not to stay in the past, but to always remember to be of service and to help people and to do things for the right reasons.
Yeah.
This is so powerful.
And Doug, let me tell you something that is a bit frustrating to me.
I'm trying as a podcast host to be more present and not take as many notes.
I'm a prolific note taker and you keep on dropping these gems that are forcing me to write things down.
It's so powerful.
There's so much to explore here.
The thing that I really loved the most was you're focusing on connecting with people who have common futures, not common pasts.
That's so powerful.
And I think a lot of times it's people carry a bit of a sense of obligation.
There's a But to to fraternize with people who have similar pasts, but they don't Take the time to think about the fact that sometimes those people are still stuck in that past.
And you've been able to focus on connecting and collaborating with people who are going toward that common future, while at the same time not forgetting your past.
You know, I think that's an important distinction.
You know, and it seems like the clearer you've become on your goals and your values, the easier it has become for you to set boundaries, the same boundaries that you found difficult to set before you had confidence and before you started going on this journey.
I want to make a point.
I don't not associate with people that are not necessarily going the same direction as me totally.
It's more like the people that I choose to spend time with.
It's like they're growth-oriented, etc.
But they're still a part of my, you know, emotional energy that that saves for this being safe, for being of service.
And, you know, it's helping people.
It's giving some insight.
It's um sharing wisdom, but I'm not like gonna just hang out with somebody who's going to do drugs in front of me just for the sake of being a nice person.
Right.
Like that's a boundary.
It's a hard boundary.
I will not do.
But if somebody who I know reaches out and was like, Hey man, I'm struggling.
I will talk to them obviously.
And if they want to meet for coffee and there's not going to be any like shady activity going on, then of course.
But the thing that I think is the biggest trap for people with that is that they're afraid to leave these packs of people and outgrow a group of friends.
That's what's the most common.
You know.
Maybe you partied with people in high school and college and now you're like 37 still partying with the same people.
But yet you still have this.
You're being pulled into personal development or being like hey, maybe I should stop like getting blacked out, drunk like five or six nights a week and, you know, snorting coke in the bathrooms when i'm out, when i'm 37 right, but but how do you?
But then they're, they're afraid of like letting go of this group of friends because they're like oh, what are they going to say about me?
Are they going to say that i'm too good for them, like all these you know, negative or limiting beliefs that can come And that just prevents people from making a change?
But I do think that you have to identify where are you going in life and can you implement strategies to change, to find ways to hang out with people that you have things in common with?
One of the easiest things you can do is this identify like who you are as a person, like your goals, your values, your morals.
Identify where you want to go in your life.
And then where do you find those people?
So I'll use the The fitness example is it always goes back to fitness for me.
If I'm somebody that wants to get healthier and wants to get better at fitness and be more goal oriented, be around more positive people.
And that's a value for me.
Where do I find those people?
The gym.
Networking events, fitness classes, yoga studio, and then you just go show up, be consistent, and then organically, you start to talk to people.
Right.
And that's kind of how these things happen.
And I say exercise classes are a good start, especially if you're trying to make new friends.
Because, like I mean, sometimes people just aren't aware of gym etiquette.
When you're like walking in the gym and you're like somebody's benching and you walk up like hey, like how you doing.
You know, like.
Yeah, you can turn that bench into a guillotine really quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah, guillotine then making a bunch of enemies at the gym.
Yeah, man, it's so true.
Denzel Washington would always say if you hang around the barbershop enough, you're going to get a haircut.
You know, and it's true.
And the thing is, you start to your new normal will shift.
So in the past, your new normal for you was you were around guys who were doing drugs all the time.
So that was normal.
And now your new normal is like podcasters and authors and people who consume a lot of professional development.
And it's so interesting just how impacted we are as humans based on the people that we surround ourselves with.
And now that you've made this shift, let's talk about that future, because you're doing some incredible things.
I want to give you some space to puff out your chest a little bit and name drop some, Because you've had some of the most incredible guests on your show.
You're making a massive difference.
So tell the listeners about what you're doing now.
What does your life look like today?
It's vastly different.
I've gone from somebody who is broken in every way to, I think, living a life full of meaning and purpose and helping a lot of people through my show, through my content, through my coaching.
One of the goals of the show was the adversity advantages of the podcast is to obviously help people, like I said at the beginning, but also to be able to like have conversations with people that have inspired me on my journey.
So, and just people that I respected and admired.
So it's just been cool that you know I've had conversations with people like Tom Bilyeu, who I watched inside quest and impact theory.
Like when I was working on changing my life and I actually was fortunate enough to be on his show.
And then he came on my show and it was a really cool thing.
Same thing with Guys like Rich Roll, Mark Manson, who wrote the Subtle Art book and a big fan of his, Danica Patrick Mr Wonderful, who big fan of Shark Tank and watched that a lot with my grandparents when I was getting out of jail.
It's just been cool to talk to people that I've admired from afar, that have influenced me and impacted me in a way.
I am super humble and grateful.
I never thought I'd be in this position that I'm in now and just working on some amazing things professionally.
But I also still remain not just humble.
Like I said, I still do my best to help people.
But accepting of the fact that life is still going to be difficult at times.
Just because I have success on paper or on the internet, I guess it is now.
Doesn't mean that um doesn't mean that I don't like get stressed out or I don't you know struggle with.
Am I doing enough?
I mean, all those things still happen.
The difference is my ability to course correct is much quicker.
I can snap out of a bad, bad day and minutes, sometimes, you know, and, and before I couldn't before, like when I was younger, I would sulk in it.
I would numb myself, but now it's like, okay, like, um, money's down financially this month.
Okay.
Like you're stressed.
Like if you weren't stressing out, like you're, there'd be something wrong with your physiology.
It's okay.
Like keep going, bro.
And it's just stuff like that that helps me, but also having people in my corner that I can call, that I can talk to.
It's having the gym doing these things that become positive outlets for me, and also just acceptance of these waves that come with Being in the profession that you and I are both in, where sometimes the algorithm determines your paycheck from time to time.
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing.
Some of the things that I've been able to accomplish, I'm super blessed to talk to people like you.
I mean, thank you so much again for featuring me in Forbes.
Like that was a dream come true.
And that article was so well done.
I mean, the amount of feedback and I saw it looked like it did pretty well.
Like as far as like the reach.
Yeah, I mean, I think that might be the most popular article I've ever written.
So thank you.
You got it, man.
I mean, that was a huge.
I mean, that was that was an amazing piece.
And and it but again, I think like the take home message with that.
And I think this is a real life example of you and I connected on a podcast.
I did my research to make sure we had a great conversation.
We connected afterwards.
And it was basically like we were just looking to help each other.
You know what I mean?
It's like, hey, what do you need help with?
What do I need help with?
And then it's like that relationship thing.
Evolves from there.
You know and I think that's where people make mistakes is they're very transactional in relationships where you know I connected with you, because I genuinely know that my audience loves hearing conversations about negotiation communication, stuff like that.
I had no intention of like being like, Hey, will you write an article about me in Forbes?
You know what I mean?
It was like, but we had such a great conversation.
You're like, Hey, have you been featured in Forbes?
Like I would, I love your story.
Like, and I was blown away.
It was totally unexpected.
And I think that's where people have to focus on is how can you go into a relationship in a way where there's no expectations, where you are showing up in the best way possible?
You're showing, um, people, um, That you genuinely care about them.
And then from there, just seeing where things go organically.
I gave this example before, but we were out at lunch or dinner.
We were out to eat.
And we heard this it was a couple and I think they were on a first date.
But this guy, he talked about himself for like 45 minutes straight.
Right.
And we were like, kind of like making bets, like, oh my gosh, I wonder if they're going to meet up.
Probably not.
And then I think that was like, that was like a real life example of like what not to do.
Like when you're in a conversation with someone, it's like, you know, you should be engaged.
You should be asking questions.
You should be be expressing interest in what they're doing, so that they can, in turn, be interested in you.
Right.
And that was I mean that's been like.
The way that I've been able to like network and and meet people is I've always remained interested and I like helping people.
Like I'm not, I don't want to, I'm not a social climber.
I'm not like, Oh, can I like help you so you can help me?
It's more like I just genuinely want to help people because it's just out of the goodness of my heart.
That's it, man.
And I think we we can overthink what it takes to be to live the life of our dreams.
You know, you can especially when you think about it in terms of networking.
It's all it's it sounds so clinical.
Do you want to be networked?
Like that doesn't sound great.
You know, do you want to make friends?
Yeah, I want to make I want to have friends.
That's it.
So somebody from the outside looking in might say, oh, look at Kwame and Doug networking.
They did a good job of networking.
No, we connected and we're friends now and friends help friends.
That's it.
And when you just put down those guards and you just open yourself up to connection and you're not completely selfish, you're just trying to genuinely help each other, then it's the true win-win that is behind all great relationships.
And the thing is too the quality of our life, to a large extent, is going to be contingent upon the quality of our relationships.
And so if you can improve and maintain and strengthen relationships, the relationships you care about, your life will get so much better.
And if you're intentional about making sure that the relationships that you have are high quality, then your life is going to get better.
And to absolutely comedically undermine the fact that we said it's not transactional.
I like to think of my relationships like a portfolio, because I'm like okay, if I have a portfolio, kind of like stocks, every relationship has value.
And there's going to be some relationships that just take you all the way down.
It's like the whole portfolio goes down because one relationship is dragging you to the pits of hell.
And you have to be mindful about what you need to do in that situation.
Can you help the person?
Can you bring them back?
Can you help to get them back on track?
But at some point you might have to recognize that this person or this relationship or these friendships are taking me in the wrong direction and I need to make an adjustment.
And it's a hard decision to make.
And the thing is, You're going to have to make this decision for different reasons, throughout the entirety of your life.
So I think about the times when for me, I still like these people are still my friends.
They're still my friends, but I'm not able to hang out with a lot of my friends as much as I used to because I have a wife and kids.
You know, it's not like something bad happened in order for me to be a good husband and to be a good father.
That takes time.
It takes presence.
And so the time that I would have been spending like playing basketball or tennis with my friends, watching sports and all that stuff.
I had to remove a lot of that or minimize a lot of that in order to make room for other things.
And so it's a delicate balance and it's never going to feel perfect.
But I think it's just recognizing like, hey, these are decisions that you need to make.
Just knowing that and doing the very best you can with balancing it.
I think that puts you in a really, really strong position, even if it's not going to be perfect.
Right.
Yeah.
And I love that portfolio analogy because there's some like stocks, right?
Where you just hold onto it for a while and you're like oh, I want this to get better, even though I know it won't.
Like, what do I do?
And then like your ego is like, I'm not selling because I've invested so much.
And then that just brings you down even more.
True man?
It is true dude, and I loved what you said about the stress too, because I think I know that I had this perception.
Everybody is, the grass is always greener.
We look at somebody at a different level doing other things and we say to ourselves oh, I want to get to that point, I hope I get to that point, and When I do get to that point, then I'll feel perfect all the time.
And then when you don't feel perfect, you're like, is something wrong with me?
Am I doing something wrong?
No, just happens to be the fact that you're still a human.
And I love the way that you said this, because you still feel stressed even though you're at this very high level.
And you said, if you don't feel stressed, it's probably something wrong with your physiology.
That's such a great way to look at it.
Because a lot of times, the things that concern us the most about the way that we feel are simply just pieces of evidence of our humanity.
Right.
Yeah.
And that was something that I struggled with for a long time too was even when I started to see, you know, some success.
I was still stressed all the time.
And then I remember going to therapy and this was also a big turning point was my therapist at the time was like well, what happened to you as a kid?
And I was like, oh.
I've talked about the divorce and all this stuff enough.
She's like, no, what was your environment like?
And I was like, well, I was pretty stressed just about things in life.
And she's like, well, that's your normal.
You go back to stress.
You force yourself to be stressed in life because that's how your brain is wired.
And once I understood that, I was like, oh, this makes sense.
Like, accept that it's normal and figure out ways to reduce it.
And that was a big turning point for me was, you know, I think people can spend too much time, you know, focusing on what happened in their childhood, for sure.
Yep.
However, for me, what helped me was understanding the chaotic nature of it and how that led to me accepting that as normal and then my brain adapting to that.
That changed the way I was able to then pivot from there.
But Yeah, I mean, like I think that people Stress gets a bad rap and I think it's because chronic stress is really bad for you.
But your body has a nervous system for a reason, right?
And it's there to, like, alarm you of a threat.
And if, like, you lose your job, that's a threat.
You know, if somebody rejects you in a way in an email and you get stressed like that's a form of a threat in a way and you have to, like you know, kind of parse through and figure out like what's we're focusing on and what's not, and then just practice like practice like stress reduction stuff, practice like choosing a better solution to things.
And over time it just becomes like a muscle.
Like I have a pretty strong adversity muscle because I've gone through a lot of adversity and I've also gone through a lot of adversity and, you know, not made things worse.
You know, like I did for years previously and um, i think that's been a game changer for me is like subconsciously and just automatically now my body, my brain, just recognizes like oh, like this month's not good for you, or this day, or whatever you'll be okay because you've gotten through things before Yeah.
That is powerful.
And Hey, let's get, let's bring in Simone too.
Cause I want to make sure.
Yeah.
Let's see.
I want to make sure he gets a moment so we can land the plane, and less i know.
I know what's going to happen.
We're just going to keep on vibing and then it's good.
My alarm is going to go off and i'm going to be like, oh shit, i gotta go.
So simone, it's all you.
Okay, my question is about an immigrant's perspective.
So when you want to get into a circle that you're not part of, maybe that people will see you as hey, this is not part of my tribe.
So maybe there's a wall that you need to find a way out. how to go through that wall.
And if you want to have dinner with him, you have to wait until March, maybe.
So it is very difficult to get to successful people, and especially if you're not successful yet.
Because they have their dream team of friends and it's very difficult to have access to them.
Because you can go to a gym or any place that they are, but maybe they wouldn't want to talk to you.
So how can you open that circle and make them see you as part of their tribe?
I think you bring up a really interesting point.
There's a couple ways I could go with this.
I think the first thing is be realistic.
I know I can't message certain people and expect to get them on the podcast.
I know I can't.
I've wanted Jordan Peterson on the podcast for a long time, Joe Rogan.
I know that I've accepted that it's not going to be as simple as sending them a direct message and they're going to come on the podcast right away.
However, it's about how can you be realistic with who you want to connect with And build momentum from there?
So maybe it's not like finding the most successful person you want to connect with or somebody that might be, as quote unquote you know, busy as Kwame.
It's like maybe somebody who is kind of just above where you're at in life that you admire.
That you can develop a friendship with, and then that person helps elevate you a little bit, and then you can kind of work your way up.
I mean not in a in a manipulative way, but I think that's kind of.
What I've learned is the way that it kind of works is you have to kind of network and meet with people that are kind of just above where you're at, build great relationships with them.
And again, not in a transactional way, because if, if people like sniff that you're kind of done um, but in a way that's like organic.
And then as you spend more time with that those people, then they're going to naturally want to introduce you to other people.
And then you, you play the long game and try to work your way up there.
I think that I've, I have had to learn that too with having realistic expectations.
Um, Or find like a unique selling point.
My unique selling point for getting big guests on the show has been my story.
I think that because of my story, I've been able to land people that maybe wouldn't have come on the show because they respected me, what I achieved, and they're like wow, like this guy may not be worth 10 million, but this guy went through a 10 million dollar journey or whatever right like.
So there's just different ways to like find your unique way, if possible, with whatever your angle or story is, and then kind of just learn to play within your realistic field, if you will.
You know, like I, there's certain people, like I said, I can't just message and expect them to come on the show and if I only reached out for them then, by the way, like I wouldn't have any guests on the show.
Here's the other thing too.
I learned this just from my cellmate.
Some of the biggest heroes in your life carry no title.
Some of the biggest heroes in your life are the unexpected.
My cellmate was a convicted felon, like in prison for years.
And he by far has had the most impact in me on me and he's passed away.
Right.
And so that guy wasn't a super successful uh, influential person, necessarily.
He was in prison with me, he was in jail, but yet he had the biggest impact on my life.
So it's like don't forget that you never know, like who's gonna have the biggest impact on you, and i think that point actually is probably the most important thing, and it just came to me as i was like thinking about like people who have impacted me and being like man, like Just sometimes, like the most unexpected people will come into your life and have the greatest blessing.
Wow.
Wow.
Well, first of all, I think we found our hook.
Simone, they found our hook.
My God, that's incredible.
And then the other thing too is.
For me, if I put on my negotiation nerd glasses for a moment, this sounds like the difference between power and leverage.
Because you might be talking to people who have power, right?
That's their source of influence.
But leverage is another source of influence and it comes from strategic advantage.
And so, Doug, your story is your leverage.
So, like you said, you might not be worth 10 million, but you have a story that has that level of value where they would say to themselves, who else could I talk to?
Who has this?
Who else could I?
They have access to a whole lot of high level people that don't have access to somebody with your story.
And I think some people really downplay the incredible nature of their story.
And they can almost put some of these things to the side and not even talk about or verbalize anything.
100%.
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
Whew, man, this is good.
This is great.
Oh, my God.
So, yeah, let's do this.
Let's land the plane now because I know I got to run, like, right at the top of the hour.
Um, but geez, Louise, this is, let's, let's think about the call out.
Cause I know your book is, is, it's not going to come out for a minute.
What's the biggest uh, I want to think about the biggest ROI for you, so we can have a a like a really good close that drives people to, to something that that's beneficial to you.
Cause we have the podcast.
What would, what would that be for you?
You think?
I mean, I think the biggest things I'm trying to promote right now obviously the podcast I'm always going to be promoting, but also like coaching.
Like I, I love coaching people and helping people.
And there's a link in my bio on Instagram.
If you want to Be coached by me, if you want to fill out the form and see if you're the right fit for each other.
But really what I've done and what I'm doing is taking all the lessons and tools that I've learned along my journey and I'm helping other people implement those into theirs to be able to transform their life.
And it's something that I really enjoy doing.
I think people relate a lot to what I have to share and offer.
And I'm just on this mission to help people transform their lives.
