This episode is brought to you by Granola Brevo Shopify, Blinkist Strawberryme and Fabric by Gerber Life.
If you're in back-to-back meetings and want to stay focused while still getting clear notes, try Granola totally free for three months at granolaaicom.
To level up your marketing head to brevocom, slash anything and use the code anything50 to save 50 off your first three months.
Ready to launch your business?
Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash kwami.
If you want to stay sharp and get the core insights from thousands of nonfiction books in just 15 minutes, start your free trial at blinkistcom.
Slash kwami.
To take control of your career trajectory.
Go to strawberryme slash kwami for 50 off.
It's like therapy for your career.
Welcome to this masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1700 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated a couple of powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you'll see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
What if you could transform your work experience without changing your job?
You know the feeling.
You're capable, hardworking and committed, but there's something missing.
Maybe it's a micromanaging boss the endless meetings or watching your colleagues coast by while you carry the load.
You need the job, but you want more fulfillment, growth and control over your daily experience.
Meet Elizabeth Letardo.
She's the best selling author of Leading Yourself and one of the world's leading experts in workplace empowerment from within.
She's an executive consultant who works with senior leaders at companies like Salesforce DraftKings, Hilton and numerous Berkshire Hathaway organizations, helping them to create purpose driven work experiences.
Elizabeth writes for Harvard Business Review, and her work has been featured in the Wall Street Journal and on NPR, and her LinkedIn learning course has reached over 1 million learners who have discovered that self-leadership is the key to professional development.
In this episode, you'll discover how to manage difficult conversations without compromising your reputation.
The mindset shifts that turn mundane tasks into meaningful opportunities and specific strategies to build influence and growth in your current role.
Whether you're feeling stuck in your position, dealing with challenging leadership, or simply want to create more joy and purpose in your work.
This conversation gives you actionable tools to take control of your experience starting today.
If you're ready to stop waiting for the perfect job and start creating fulfillment in the one that you have, you're in for a treat.
Let's jump into the interview.
Let's start it off this way, framing it for the person who's listening.
So if they listen to this episode and they take the wisdom that you're going to distill for us and put it into action in their life, what changes for them?
What I hope for each listener is that after this episode, you have some practical strategies to make your job better.
You feel more empowered in the seat you're in, even if that is the role of individual contributor, and you feel more optimistic about what lies ahead of you.
It's tall order, but we can do it.
Yes, it is doable.
And I'm familiar with your work, so I know we can do it.
And I love the fact that we have a practical and an emotional component, because sometimes people can understand what they want emotionally but they don't understand how to practically drive toward it.
Sometimes they have the practical drive, but then they don't have the clarity of purpose.
And so then they never get that emotional satisfaction.
And I love the fact that we're going to be able to marry both of them after this interview too.
Well said, much has been talked about with like oh, our hard skills most important, our people skills most important, and the reality is they are both important.
You need to have the emotional intelligence and the self-awareness piece, and you also need to know how to execute.
Yeah absolutely, and and of course, i want to make sure that the the person listening knows we.
You have a book that just came out, leading yourself, and that's going to be the the foil for this conversation.
So um, When we think about how self-leadership applies to driving practically toward these emotional goals in a practical, tangible way, can you kind of encapsulate what you personally mean when you're talking about leading yourself?
What I mean when I talk about leading yourself is taking full ownership of your work experience.
You are the common denominator in every job you are ever going to have.
Yes, you may have bosses.
Some of them will be good.
Some of them won't be.
Yes, you may work for companies with opportunities.
You will also work for some who don't have any.
But your ability to set direction, to manage your energy, to be resilient.
That is what determines your outcome.
Yes.
And let's talk about this concept of ownership because listeners, we were vibing before this conversation started.
And I said wait, we have to save some of this energy for the actual podcast, because I really love your approach to ownership and accountability.
So let's break down what you mean when you're discussing those terms, and then we'll talk about how it applies, not just here in the workplace, but just to everybody in their everyday life.
So to let listeners in on behind the scenes, what happened before record was pressed.
I was saying that last week someone told me that I was like the extreme ownership guy, but nice.
I bring the same message of personal responsibility, but with more optimism and less yelling.
And it is my view that personal responsibility is not a harsh thing.
It is freeing.
It is putting yourself proactively in the driver's seat and believing that you have the capabilities and the skills to make change.
And from that vantage point it becomes less about yelling to do pushups and making your bed and more about looking inward and being inspired about where you can go.
I love this.
And it's so important for us to hammer this home because it's something that's very simple in articulation but difficult to put into practice.
And I think today we are.
We're in a time where there are a lot of societal forces pushing us to think the opposite, helping forcing us to think like victims, or we don't have the agency to take control over our certain elements of our lives.
And this is not to say that there aren't some like structures, forces and other things and real difficult circumstances.
We're not minimizing that.
But what we want to do is focus on the things that are within our control.
So then we could actually drive toward freedom on our own terms, because otherwise then, whether or not we are happy or sad, successful or not, as successful as we want to be, is completely outside of our own hands.
And that is ultimately very disempowering and unhopeful.
Well, your sentiment, the data backs this up.
And I'll talk about what drove me to write Leading Yourself now.
In 2017, I made a LinkedIn learning course.
I'm an instructor just like you called Leading Yourself.
And it was very early days LinkedIn learning.
It was back in like lynda.com days.
And what I wanted to do with that course was offer something in the leadership library for people who didn't have direct reports, who were only in charge of themselves.
And what I saw during the pandemic in 2020 was that course exploded.
And I think the reason for that is in 2020 it became really obvious that we couldn't count on the certainty we once thought was there.
Our manager was not going to be next to us holding our hand for all of these things.
And we were in charge of what was going to happen to us.
And I tracked the data behind that course against public events and the discord socially around who's in charge of who.
And it's such an interesting story that was followed by the great resignation and now even more employment uncertainty, and this platform of it's on you has been steadily building since 2020.
And I think that context is an important piece, because now there's no shortage of people who will offer to lead you right.
Your boss, some LinkedIn guru, the two of us on a podcast.
There's no certainty for what lies ahead and, From an organizational perspective, organizations are getting wider.
Your manager is overwhelmed.
They don't have the bandwidth to support you in the way that they probably want to.
So all of those arrows point to it's on you to lead yourself.
So essentially, whether or not you want to lead yourself, you need to.
You already are.
The question is, are you doing a good job?
That hits hard.
That hits hard.
And Now, you've worked with brands across the spectrum, all sorts of different industries.
And when you think about the mindset that's required in order to put this into action, what deep down inside of people is the biggest inhibitor to shifting toward this type of mindset?
That's a good question.
The biggest inhibitor that I've seen and that has certainly played out for me is Is the risk of saying OK, if this is my responsibility and I'm in charge of it and it doesn't go well, then that means it's my fault.
And that can be scary.
It can be terrifying.
Wow, that's deep.
I remember when I was studying for the bar exam as a lawyer, I was really intrigued to hear that from one of my professors one of the reasons why people fail.
And she said that a lot of times people don't do the work that they know they need to do because they want an excuse at the end of the day.
So if they don't fail, they can say, I, there was this thing in front of me.
I didn't put forth my efforts.
So I truly didn't fail.
The circumstances kind of failed me.
And it seems like there's a similar mentality that's happening here too.
Because if I accept full ownership and accountability for my behavior, my mentality, the actions that I take and the strategies that I use, then that means I have to take full ownership and accountability of the outcome of, And then I can't hide.
I can't escape, whether I succeed or more.
A little bit scarier is if I fail, then I am a failure, and I don't want to risk that.
That is a great example.
And I would say more likely if you fail the bar exam.
I've seen those stats.
But what you've hit on is a really important undertone of the self-leadership conversation, which is if I am willing to step in and take full responsibility for my work experience.
That doesn't mean there aren't things outside of my control, doesn't mean everything is going to go perfect.
I own my seat.
Then if my seat's not working out, whose fault is that?
And that can be an uncomfortable truth to sit with, but I would argue that the long-term outcome of feeling like a victim of your circumstances is is a lot more uncomfortable.
Oh, that's powerful.
So from the outside looking in, somebody could read the book and try to just skim it, right?
And say, okay, well, Elizabeth's probably going to tell me to use this strategy.
And then they might be surprised that it's not so much about the strategy as it is the mindset.
And then they might be even more surprised that there is something that gets in the way of utilizing the mindset, which is my fear.
And I think a lot of times we end up trying to solve for the wrong problem.
So we don't like where we are in our career.
So our solution is to blame somebody else.
Okay, no, that didn't work.
Well, then I'm going to use a different strategy.
Okay, well, that didn't work.
It's mindset, but then we reverse engineer it even further and we recognize it's fear.
So I think for a lot of people listening, They might struggle, or they might have struggled, to solve these career challenges if they did not realize that the roots of those challenges come from fear.
I think there's a lot of truth in that.
And there's that old saying, I think it's even a book title, everywhere you go, there you are.
And we saw an interesting proof point in this in The Great Resignation.
And from like an organizational psychologist perspective, I was amazed grit to my seat during the Great Resignation because it was the ultimate proof point of what drives talent, retention and engagement, and do circumstances really change that which was the crux of my research?
Do circumstances truly change employee engagement?
Spoiler, the answer is no.
But what we saw in the Great Resignation was a huge percentage of people, unlike any time in modern history, left their jobs in search of meaning and purpose and more emotional fulfillment, and they didn't find it.
Two years later, there was a big study that spanned over 350 organizations serving people who had quit their job during the Great Resignation, and almost two-thirds of them said they regretted it.
Over 50% said they tried to get their old job back, and engagement in that time fell.
It did not improve, despite everyone seeking more emotional fulfillment at work.
So this was, on a global scale, the exact proof I needed to confirm that circumstances don't determine engagement nearly as much as our own mindset and self-leadership skills.
And of course, there are nuances in there.
Toxic leaders, of course, they derail engagement.
But, generally speaking, we are the biggest predictor of whether work feels meaningful, joyful and full of opportunities or it doesn't.
This is really fascinating because let's dig into this.
It's a perfect time to.
What are the things that we need to do, or don't understand currently, that hold us back from feeling as engaged as we want to feel at work?
So I'll share with you the subtitles of my book.
And there are two.
It's Leading Yourself.
Find more meaning, joy and opportunities in the job you already have.
And then, below that, it says despite imperfect bosses, weird economies, lethargic coworkers, annoying systems and too many deliverables.
And what I found in the research and what many of us have lived experience to back this up, myself included, is that those annoying undertone categories we often make the mistake of believing that fixing those will give us the thing at the top.
Fixing those will give us meaning, joy, and opportunities.
If only those things got out of the way.
But what the research tells us is that's not true.
Those things are present in almost every single organization, even these best place to work.
And the people who engage in spite of those do so almost everywhere they go.
So it is not the natural human tendency to remove that annoyance, It is the ability to upskill yourself enough to operate in the face of it, because we know they're not going away.
They permeate every single organization to some degree.
So when you look at your own ability to confront an imperfect boss and I know you talked to my friend Melody Wilding about this that is a more realistic picture than having a perfect boss.
When you look at your ability to operate in the face of annoying systems and to find opportunities to reset your brain, that is more likely than not facing annoying systems.
So what I did in my book was I broke down these things that supposedly we feel get in the way of our ability to engage and offer some mental models, some brain hacks, some talk tracks, to get out in front of those and put yourself in the power position.
Let's talk about them, because now we can make this real and tangible.
When you think about the work that you've done and what you've provided in this incredible book as well, what would you say is the single most powerful thing tool, mental model that somebody could use or adopt that would help them get the biggest return on investment when it comes to living the life that they want to live and having the work opportunities and the work life that they want to have.
I'll tell you the one that made the biggest difference for me.
And it's four words.
This is my chance.
And this is a brain hack.
I first learned in a parenthood webinar on dealing with unexpected toddler circumstances, but it applies and works so well.
So let me walk you through a couple of examples.
We talk a lot on this show about the importance of learning and staying sharp.
But let's be honest between work and life.
Who actually has time to read every single book that can help you to get ahead?
And that is exactly why I use Blinkist.
It's an app that takes the world's best nonfiction books and breaks them down into 15-minute summaries that you can read or listen to.
They have over 9000 titles, so whether you're into leadership, psychology or negotiation, they've got you covered.
Personally, I love to learn about a wide variety of topics, not just negotiation, but psychology, history and communication.
All of that knowledge works together to help me to be the negotiator that I am today.
This is the tool for you.
Go to Blinkist.com slash Kwame to start your free trial.
That's Blinkist.com slash Kwame.
If you're leading a lot of meetings or if you're in meetings back to back all day, you know how mentally demanding that can be.
You're trying to stay present.
You're contributing.
You're thinking strategically.
But part of your brain is also tracking action items, decisions and follow ups.
That's why our team uses Granola.
Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet.
Here's how it works.
You take rough notes like you normally would, and in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting, and when it ends, it turns everything into clean, structured notes that are actually useful.
And what I appreciate the most is that it works through your device's audio.
It integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools that you already use and there's no complicated setup.
It just fits into your workflow.
Granola doesn't replace you in the meeting.
It augments you.
It lets you lean in focus and listen deeply, while still walking away knowing exactly what was deciding who owns what and what comes next.
Before Granola, our team would spend extra time cleaning up notes and double-checking details.
Now we leave meetings aligned and clear.
It saved us time and helps us to operate at a much higher level.
If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer.
You can actually try it completely free for three months.
Just head to granola.ai.com.
That's granola.ai.com to get your time back.
Get three months free at granola.ai.com.
If I am met with an email first thing Monday morning from my boss and the basic sentiment of all the work I did last week is now useless because they saw a TikTok that said we should do something else.
Yeah.
It's easy to feel like a victim in that moment and to attribute a lot of ill will to the person who sent me that email.
But what's important to recognize is I'm the one that pays the price for that emotionally, not them.
But let's use this this phraseology of this is my chance in that moment.
This is my chance to respectfully push back.
This is my chance to learn something new.
This is my chance. to pivot.
This is my chance to dig beneath the surface and understand why my leader is not confident in the direction we're going.
And suddenly this thing that happened to me, this annoying email, has become an opportunity for me to show up in the way I want and to make progress that aligns with the vision that I have.
And that forced brain hack of where is the opportunity in this for me is so emblematic, simple and profound, of self-leadership and how it changes the way you feel at work.
And we know that when you change the way you feel, you change what you do and you change the results you drive.
Absolutely.
And Elizabeth, this is great for self-leadership at work, but this is great for life in general.
Like I said, I learned it in a parenthood webinar from someone named Tessa Romero.
And what I found myself experiencing in parenthood when I applied this, was a level of empowerment which is crazy to say.
And you and I yapped a little bit before the podcast about how toddlers make grown adults feel so powerless.
Um, but I felt so empowered.
I felt better to better able to meet changing circumstances.
I felt more authentic in my responses.
I was showing up in a way I wanted to, in a way that wasn't reactive.
I was like, man, like I could use some of this at work.
Um.
And then, when I started applying that same principle of okay rough email from a client, this is my chance to what
I got to find it in here.
My mental frame completely changed.
This is great.
And for me, in my first book, I talk about opportunity-based thinking.
This is so much better because it's a pure lead in, right?
And it's utilizing language that most people would use, right?
This is my chance, right?
This is great.
And for any of us who grew up in you know, the 90s and early 1000s, it's almost reminiscent of Eminem's song you know you've got one shot.
Mom's spaghetti, like it is so good.
But you feel hype after that song and you feel the same after forcing your brain to find the opportunity.
Yes.
And then for me, it's life's kind of become a game.
Right.
Where it's like, OK, cool.
I recognize that difficulty is happening and I also recognize there's always an opportunity.
So where is the opportunity?
This is my chance to what?
And so you be you now put yourself in a in a non narcissistic, non narcissistic way.
Make yourself the main character of your story where you are presented with a challenge.
And now you can say, OK, now this is the chance to overcome an obstacle.
Right.
Or solve a problem.
Set a boundary.
Right.
This is so empowering.
And again, it goes back to what we said at the beginning.
It's ownership.
Life isn't happening to you as much as you are happening to life now with this new mentality.
Absolutely.
And I'll be first to admit some of my this is my chances are an eye roll.
Like I'm sarcastic to myself.
I got to force myself to do this thing because I, so naturally as every human does, fall into victimhood.
But it still works even if you're rolling your eyes through it.
Yes.
Yes.
I think, but Elizabeth, I think that's important.
I think that's important because sometimes people can look at folks like us, hear us on the podcast, check out your LinkedIn learning course or read the book and say I could never be like Elizabeth.
I think it's important for us to sprinkle in a little bit of our own humanity and recognize that it's tough for us too.
So we're not telling you to do something that just comes easily for us.
It takes a lot of work.
But the more you start to do it, the more it becomes a mental habit.
And then we understand, through the psychology and science of neuroplasticity, we are shaping the brain every time we try to adopt new forms of thinking and new behaviors.
So it does slowly become easier, relatively speaking, but it's still very difficult to do.
But you need to start building that mental habit.
So there's a saying in publishing that I think will resonate with you, based on how you opened your book, with your own struggles.
I did the same, which is, if you want to know what an author struggles with, look at the title of their book, because that is what they had to learn and break down and what didn't come naturally.
And I opened my book with the story of hating one of my early jobs in advertising and And thinking that was everybody else's fault but mine.
Wow.
That's incredible.
That is incredible.
And now let's actually tell this story now to the listeners.
Yeah.
So tell us about that.
Sure.
So I graduated college.
I went to BU for my undergrad.
I got what I thought was my dream job as an account manager at an ad agency and And within six months or so, I was really burned out and upset because I was selling Google AdWords at the time, which is really transactional.
And I found myself in so many conversations arguing about a fraction of a cent on keywords for car dealerships.
And I was like, I was supposed to have this like really cool creative job and this sucks.
And I thought that was because I picked the wrong job.
I thought it was because my boss at the time was great, but wasn't inspiring enough.
I thought it was because the place I worked with was too small.
Our customers were really transactional.
I found every single avenue to blame for why my experience sucked.
And never did I look at my part in it.
Until later in my life when I realized, oh, actually, a lot of that was my fault.
But what I found through career pivots and growth and going back to school and studying industrial and organizational psychology, is that the mindsets that sit beneath all of these circumstances are so much more powerful than the circumstances themselves.
And in hindsight I see so many like poor 22-year-old Elizabeth like, bless her heart, She was so earnest and so aspirational and felt so powerless.
And what I wish I could tell her is you have so much more power than you think, even though this job isn't perfect.
And even though some things are kind of annoying, like there are so many levels at your or levers at your control,
And it's easy to see in hindsight.
And I think all of us have had those experiences.
One hundred percent.
And I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that too, because I can even think about some of my early times.
But again, I was putting a lot of blame on the circumstances and not taking ownership.
And I think, as we pivot a little bit, I think there are a lot of leaders and managers listening to this episode.
Terrified.
Like well, what do I do if it's, if it's all within the power of the other person, then do I what?
What now is my role?
And so as as we kind of shift the focus to the folks who are leading in these organizations, this message that you're bringing, what does this mean to them?
I'm so glad you asked that question, because when I first launched this book I did not get that message right.
And I did not answer that question.
And this was perceived as quite threatening to middle management.
Like self-leadership is a replacement to middle management.
But what I found as I dove into conversations and started implementing training on this and consulting on it was that the ability for someone to self-lead is freeing to their manager because it cuts out so much of the managerial BS and enables the manager to step into a role that is more powerful, not less.
Instead of calling through all the potential growth opportunities for this person, they're coming to you and you get to open the door for that growth opportunity.
Instead of putting out All of these micro fires that they don't feel empowered to solve themselves.
You get to use your time to talk about their career, to talk about strategic ways they could contribute to the organization.
So someone's ability to self-lead should not in any way erode their relationship with their manager.
If anything, it should improve it and both parties should get more value from it.
Incredible.
That's very empowering.
And so the managers need to buy this book for their teams.
You know, maybe I should have picked a different title, because so many managers are like wow, I want to buy this for my team, but I don't want it to feel insulting.
Like the undertone of it is leave me alone.
And that's not the case at all.
To give someone this book is to say, I believe in you.
You have it within you to drive your career.
And I'm here to cheer you on.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
And now let's stay on managers for a little bit, too.
Because when you are working with people, it's one of the things that people don't fully understand understand a lot of times when they're looking up at their own leadership is how difficult leadership is and how infrequently they might be thinking about you in particular.
Not in a like I don't care type of way, but in an.
I as a human being have a limited cognitive capacity and I've got so much of my own stuff to deal with.
I cannot focus on you as much as you think I am or possibly should be.
And it can be really difficult when you look at somebody on your team.
You might see them performing well, but they still might be disengaged, which comes with other problems.
So how can you tell the difference between somebody who is quietly disengaged and masking it with confidence and competence, versus somebody who is actually fully engaged and wholeheartedly enjoying the work that they do?
Ooh, deep question.
And I think there's a couple of assumptions that sit beneath that that get us in trouble.
Number one.
Satisfaction and engagement are often lumped together in this workplace culture narrative.
And those are two really different things.
Satisfaction is passive.
It's I like my job over here.
I'm judging it.
It's okay.
Yeah, sure.
I'll stay. engagement is active.
I am in my job.
I am putting forth discretionary effort.
I am innovating.
And instead of the bar being I like my job, the bars, I will give more to it.
And oftentimes, passive satisfaction is perceived from a managerial level as active engagement.
And we assume that, because someone isn't stomping their feet around and threatening to leave and they're hitting their milestones, that surely they're engaged right.
And the Gallup survey, which I will spare you my rant on, perpetuates this.
So, as a manager, how do you tell the difference between someone who is satisfied and someone who is engaged?
Satisfaction is a feeling.
To me, engagement is a behavior.
So looking beneath how you think they feel about this job to what are they doing?
Are they coming up with new ideas?
Are they fighting uphill for things that they believe in?
Are they putting forth that discretionary effort?
Are they excited about potential opportunities for them?
Are they looking beyond their role?
Those behaviors are a better indicator than hey, do you like this job?
That's so good.
This is one of those situations Elizabeth, where I have to remember hey Kwame, you're here as a podcast host, not a client getting coaching.
I have to remind myself the same.
I had so many questions for you after reading your book.
But it's tricky.
And the other flip side of it is And I think this is related to the question of how you tell the difference whether someone is actively engaged versus just like passively satisfied is.
As people, we have never expected more of our leader than we do right now.
LinkedIn is filled with all the ways that your leader should be a servant driven leader to you.
They should be inspiring.
They should be resilient.
They should be excellent at decision making.
Right.
These are people right with their own bosses to please and their own imperfect childhoods that inform all of their stuff today.
And the challenge we get into is the manager feels like they're letting everybody down and the employee feels like they're being let down when realistically, the expectations were just so insane to begin with.
No one should feel that way.
So back to the manager conversation of like how do I tell if someone is actively engaged versus passively satisfied?
Do employees feel empowered enough to be their own source of inspiration, to not rely on you 100 of the time to make decisions in your absence?
I think that can be a powerful indicator versus everything on the shoulder of the frontline manager.
Yes, I love this.
This is, first of all, I love it because I'm biased as a leader.
That sounds great.
And second of all, I love it because it's realistic.
Now we actually can identify what it is that we need to look for and then how we need to solve for it.
Now, another thing that comes up a lot is effective boundary setting.
And we go back to this is my chance.
This could be your chance to effectively set a boundary and start to reset a relationship that might have been going in the wrong direction.
Now how do we do that effectively at work, especially if we are now just coming into the realization that it is okay and appropriate to set boundaries?
So I think what gets in the way of Effectively setting boundaries and not attributing a moral failing to people who bump up against them, even though we failed to set them for a decade plus, is assuming that if I had this realization right that I need to set boundaries,
Maybe it was a health crisis that made me reevaluate my relationship with work.
Maybe it was a conversation with a mentor that said you're going to get burnt out if you don't do this.
I've had some experience, right, that has prompted me to take a different set of actions.
The rest of the world did not have that experience.
And they're going to treat you the same way they did yesterday.
So the boundary setting conversation is more effective when you honor the fact that you hadn't before.
Instead of making a change and expecting everyone to notice and follow suit.
So if your manager calls you at 9 pm right, and you take that call every week for three years and then suddenly you don't.
And they think, why is this person not taking my call?
They've always taken my call.
And you think, how dare they bump up against this boundary that I have only recently set?
How dare they not recognize that?
Both sides of that are going to walk away really frustrated.
So to be upfront about the boundary setting and the fact that you're doing it instead of just quietly setting it and hoping people notice, can make a big difference in whether it's respected and how people feel about it.
Are you ready to take your business's marketing to the next level?
Meet Brevo, the all-in-one marketing and CRM platform built to help you connect with customers, boost engagement and grow your business smarter.
With Brevo, you can manage all of your customer interactions in one place, nurture leads with their built-in CRM and reach your audience through email and SMS, and keep them coming back with powerful automations.
But here's where it gets really exciting.
Meet Aura, Brevo's AI assistant.
Aura helps you craft smarter campaigns by suggesting personalized content, optimizing send times and even analyzing performance data to help you improve your strategy in real time.
It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24-7.
And, of course, Breville offers advanced analytics, seamless integrations and AI-driven personalization.
Everything you need to craft multi-channel campaigns that hit the mark every single time.
Get started for free today, or use code anything50 to save 50 on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription.
So just head to www.brevo.com slash anything and take your marketing further with Brevo and Aura.
When I started this podcast and built the American Negotiation Institute, I quickly realized something.
No one hands you a manual.
You're the strategist, the marketer, the operations team and the tech department all at the same time.
Every day, there's a new decision, a new problem and a new hat to wear.
Starting something of your own can feel exciting and lonely.
And looking back, having the right tools makes all the difference.
For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify.
Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses all around the world and 10 of e-commerce in the United States.
From brands just getting started to major household names.
With hundreds of ready-to-use templates, Shopify helps you to build a beautiful online store that matches your brand.
It's packed with AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography, helping you to move faster and more efficiently.
You can create email and social media campaigns to reach customers wherever they're scrolling, and you can manage everything in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics, without juggling multiple platforms.
Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing.
Sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash Kwame.
Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame.
That is Shopify.com slash Kwame.
This is the kind of perspective shift that I think a lot of people need to hear, because a lot of times, when we are in these conversations, where we're advocating for ourselves, setting boundaries, whatever it happens to be, we fault the other side for having a very, very human response.
And so if you have inappropriately set expectations that are not in your favor and you've been acting in accordance with those expectations for years, and then you change the game in their mind, something is off with you because of the discrepancy between expectations and reality, and the shifting expectations as well.
And so by recognizing that and owning that kind of pulling this through line as we go through the conversation, We can say OK now, this kind of changes the way that I navigate the conversation, because I do believe having that humble disclaimer at the beginning of the conversation does wonders.
And it kind of serves as a preemptive strike to a very predictable response from the other side too.
And so I think taking ownership for not sending the boundary in the past and then explaining why you're setting it now, that is incredibly powerful as you start to reset these relationships.
What I found is when I can proactively say it was on me for taking all those phone calls and I didn't realize the price I was paying for that until now, and I'm changing my behavior.
The other person goes through the train of thought that you did in a sped up way and they can more accurately meet you where you are.
What happens when you don't do it is you don't set the boundary.
You don't set the boundary, you become annoyed and then you become resentful, and then you set it in rage and And the person pushes against it the way they have just a little bit for the last three years.
And it explodes out of you that they don't respect your boundary, that they want you to feel taken advantage of, that they expect a certain way.
Of course, they expect a certain way.
That's how you've been acting.
So just getting out in front of it saves both sides so much heartache.
And back to self-leadership, it is on you.
You can do that with your boss. even though you're not in charge.
Yes.
Oh, this is great.
Okay.
I think this is a good opportunity for our listener dilemma.
Hi, Elizabeth.
I'm in my early thirties and have been in the same role for a few years now.
I used to love it, but lately I've been feeling stuck.
Like I'm just going through the motions.
I don't think I'm ready to leave the company, but I also don't know how to find that spark again.
I'm not even sure what I'm aiming for anymore.
How do I rediscover a sense of purpose without blowing everything up?
Thanks, Jess.
Ooh, I love that question.
And that is the crux of finding meaning, joy, and opportunities in the job you already have.
So let's go through those three categories, meaning joy and opportunities, because we know the sum of that, or the absence of all of those, is what makes someone feel stuck, even though they don't hate it.
They're just kind of it.
We'll start with meaning.
If you've been in the role for a long time, the meaning has probably escaped you, just because of how frequently it happens.
And what I mean by that is if you, let's say you're in accounting, right?
You solve people's accounting woes every day.
For you.
Normal day in the office, I solve someone's accounting problem and we lose sight of, and that enabled this person to sleep at night and that enabled this business to make a more strategic investment.
And that kept this person out of jail.
The ripple effect escapes our inbox.
And for a normal day, it means nothing.
When for our customers, our colleagues, the communities we serve, it means everything.
So tapping back into that ripple effect tracing your emails and the impact that they have, Letting others tell you, reading customer testimonials, that can fuel back up your sense of meaning for something that has become transactional over time.
Joy is in short supply these days, first of all.
But your ability to find it inside of your work experience is predictive of your energy levels.
So paying attention to where you are feeling, that ping of engagement, if it's not frequent, can give you a clue into what you need more of.
Is it more customer conversations?
Is it more time for deep work?
Is it more mentoring and networking and that human side of work that fills your cup?
Paying special attention to your energy levels and then optimizing for that.
And then lastly, opportunities.
If you've been in your role for a long time and you feel stuck Identifying what a growth opportunity would be for you and spelling that out and asking for it from your manager not necessarily changing jobs.
But hey, I'd like to work on the stretch project because I want to up my skills in this area.
Or I'd like to lead this initiative because I'm trying to be more visible in our organization.
Putting your hat in the ring for things without quitting your job. is empowering.
And very rarely do those opportunities come to you.
You usually have to raise your hand and seek them out and make them.
I think for me, what's so powerful about this response is that you've taken some terms meaning joy.
I think opportunities have been more concrete but meaning and joy and turn them into something tangible and actionable.
We can understand where the meaning comes from.
And I feel like that's an exercise we should all go through on a weekly or monthly basis to make sure we're not losing sight of it.
I think it's very easy to lose sight of the impact downstream of our actions positively.
And that's what gives us meaning.
And then again with joy.
This is helpful for me again in real life as well, because our energy and following that energy and paying attention to our energy levels, a lot of times we can acknowledge it, we understand it, but we don't create that intentional, explicit connection to joy.
And I love how clear this is, because now somebody can actually go through this process and put this into action in a way that makes a real difference.
The ripple effect to me is the most powerful version of self-leadership.
And I start the book with these mindsets around purpose and acting in the face of fear and things that we know we need to do, but the how is kind of muddy.
Tried to make that more tangible.
And the ripple effect exercise is built on something that I've been doing for a long time with consulting and training clients, which is something called an impact map, where you take your role at the center of this piece of paper and And you're going to list out all the normal activities day in the office stuff you do.
And then you're going to trace it as far as you can to see where that lands.
And the ability to contextualize all the things you do and see their meaning fuels you in a way.
Caffeine or even adrenaline cannot sustain.
This is amazing.
I know you know this, but this is great.
This is really, really good.
I appreciate it.
Well, back at you, friend.
I've learned so much from your podcast and your book as someone who is chronically avoidant of difficult conversations.
Ironically,
Well, thank you.
Well, you see, by the title, I was...
Yeah, that publishing expression landed with you.
You learned to find confidence in conflict and I learned to lead myself.
Amazing.
And now we're helping other people do the same.
That's wild.
That is so cool.
Well, Elizabeth, I really appreciate this.
And I know we obviously have the book, but I want to give you an opportunity to again, before you go, just let the listeners know about you, the work that you do and how they can connect.
So my book is everywhere books are, ebook, hardcover, audible, wherever you consume.
I also, like you, have a lot of LinkedIn learning courses, one of which is on self-leadership, but I also cover leading without formal authority, finding your purpose at work and igniting emotional engagement in your team.
So that's a great resource if you're not into books.
And I post all kinds of clicky content on LinkedIn most days.
Amazing.
Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Oh, great.
And before we stop the recording, Simone always comes in and he has an extra question that he asks.
They're always holding my game, Elizabeth.
Good on you for filling them.
Yes.
I've been working with Kwame for maybe five years now.
And he has always given me the opportunity to lead myself.
Always.
I just know the goals I have to accomplish.
So Kwame, maybe four or five years ago, he told me, OK, you know where we want to go, right?
You know what I want to be?
Yes.
OK, help me, please.
Let's go.
So as long as we have the same purpose, I think it's the necessary thing that we need.
So I don't know if you're in the future are planning on creating a version of this book for managers because it is exactly what managers need.
Don't you think?
Yes, I do think.
And I would say that if most bosses operated the way Kwame did, I wouldn't have a job.
So you are lucky in that sense.
But there's a lot of truth in your question.
What I found through implementing leading yourself training is there has to be a managerial piece to it.
Because if the manager isn't ready, if they don't have the trust in the individual, the confidence they hired right, the failure tolerance, to know there's going to be some missteps, then it's not going to work.
So the root of your question of This is kind of for managers.
Yes, it is.
And so often managers say that they want their team to feel empowered.
They don't want to be looped into every single decision.
And then they demonstrate behaviors that do the opposite of that.
So there's certainly a complementary yin yang to a self-leading individual contributor and a boss who empowers that.
So there's a little bit of especially from the leader's perspective as well.
There's a lot that goes into this.
We talk about the ownership portion and everything, but it also talks about making sure that you have the right people on the team too, who have the capacity for leading themselves.
I feel like so much of a leader's inability to embrace self-leadership comes to a previous experience where they were really let down by their team's either inability to step into their role.
They were surprised by something gnarly and that leaks out as micromanagement and disempowerment in ways that hurt everybody's feelings, including the person doing it.
Yes, nobody wants to micromanage.
Nobody wants to be micromanaged.
Nobody wants to micromanage.
It's a trauma response.
You can ask Melody about that next time you talk to her.
Exactly.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
Nancy, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks for having me, Kwame.
I love talking to you.
Love it.
Yes.
Likewise.
This is, what, number three or four?
You're a fan favorite.
Three.
Third time's a charm.
Yes.
Well, you're a fan favorite.
I love, love, love listening.
I love watching.
Love your YouTube.
Love your YouTube.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Well listen, how about we start off by telling the listeners about yourself and what you do, and then we will flow into this new chapter in the life of Nancy Medoff.
Yes, thank you.
Well, I am a public speaker.
I am a coach.
I'm an author.
I'm a podcaster.
Basically, I work with women and I train them how to advocate for themselves at work.
So it could be the job.
It could be the promotion.
It could be speaking up in meetings, whatever the case may be.
I teach women how to advocate and step into their strengths so that they can thrive at work.
Amazing.
And speaking about thriving, I think you have some news to share from earlier this year.
Yes, I do.
I don't know what I was thinking.
I ran for public office in my small town.
So I live in a very small town on Cape Cod and it's about 2000 year round residence.
And I ran for public office, which the position is select board.
So instead of a mayor we have five people and they are the board that sets the policy and really kind of manages the policies for the town.
So I ran back in January and the election was in May.
And I am pleased to report kind of that I did get elected.
And it was quite an experience.
It was definitely a life changing experience in many, many, many ways.
So I'm excited to talk to you a little bit about it.
Absolutely.
And this is great because don't worry, listeners, we're not talking national politics.
I know you're tired of that.
We are too.
Okay.
We are just fortunate right now to have somebody who is a top level communication expert, who also ran for office successfully.
And so what I want to do in this episode is talk about how your view and approach and strategies around communications have changed or evolved because experience.
So how about you set the stage, tell us the story about the election, because I know it got a little bit.
It got a little bit harrowing at times.
Let's start off with the story and then we'll go into the learnings.
Right.
I love it.
So as I mentioned, I live in a small town on Cape Cod and I moved here right before the pandemic.
And I joined a few town boards and committees because I wanted to get involved and help lead the town forward.
I was thinking about running a few years ago.
I chose not to at the time because my business was really taking off and I didn't feel that I could allocate the time needed.
Fast forward a few years.
My business is in a great spot in terms of running itself and the systems and the support.
I had a talk with my husband and said, hey, I'm thinking about doing this.
What do you think?
And we decided if you're going to do it, now's the time to do it.
So I ran for office.
I had no idea how much effort, time, energy, headspace, everything that it would take.
And it's interesting because we're a town of 2000.
And I figured one of my colleagues who's on the board, this is a great example.
She had one lawn sign made, one.
And it said, I'm so-and-so, first select board.
And she was elected.
She was elected twice, one sign.
It's a small, small town.
Everybody kind of knows each other.
In this race, there were two spots open and four people running.
So there was all kinds of competition, if you will, who's taking a position on what.
I ordered about 25 lawn signs and I said oh, you know what, whatever's left over, I'll just keep them.
It's fine.
And I ran out and I
This is how much people were paying attention to this election, which was really interesting and somewhat of a parallel to what's happening or what happened in America recently.
They were paying attention.
They asked really good questions.
A lot of people really wanted to meet one-on-one.
I mean I went door to door and met with many people that I never would have met with or never would have met in my ordinary course of being.
And it was fantastic.
And it was exhausting.
And it was a game changer in terms of... It was probably the hardest thing I've ever done.
I would say it was the hardest thing I've ever done.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah.
What elements... were the hardest.
Right.
So it was so long ago that I forgot.
Well, one of the things that was hardest was when some people that were running decided to be really catty.
And it's like there was memes about me floating around on social media.
And I just I kind of laughed.
I was like, wow, like somebody's making a meme about me.
Well, first of all, that's ridiculous.
Second of all, it's distracting.
Third of all, it wasn't true what was being said.
And there was nothing I could do about it.
So I ran because I felt I could make a difference.
I have no hidden agenda.
People still don't believe me.
I have no agenda other than I would like to move the town forward.
It does not benefit me at all other than moving the town forward.
So the memes and the people assuming that they knew who I was or what I stood for without ever having a conversation with me, that was really interesting.
And really just the sheer magnitude of... Here's how I would describe it.
Think about Interviewing for a job.
You're interviewing for a job and everybody in the company gets to decide if you get that job.
That is what running for public office is.
You are running for a job and the people get to vote you in.
So think that through.
So you have executives at the company that understand what you're trying to do, maybe on the same page, maybe not.
You have middle manager people at the company who care about something very different than what the executives care about.
And then you have people just starting with the company, who really don't have a, don't really know necessarily if you'll be good for the company, and they get a vote.
So all these people get a vote and your job is to persuade them to vote for you.
It's fascinating.
Tough.
It sounds nerve wracking.
And I want to start in an interesting spot because we will get to the conversational strategies.
If you've listened to Nancy's other episodes, it's very strategy heavy.
So you always know what to do.
And then also just a little shout out.
We did have a that role play where what was my name?
Steve the steamroller.
Steve the steamroller.
It's one of my favorites.
Yes.
So if you want to see Nancy and I go toe to toe in a sparring session, we should probably link to that episode here too.
But I want to talk about mindset here, because one of the first things that you said when we were just chit chatting beforehand is that now you've gotten to a place where you don't care about what people think about you.
And I think especially for people who are leaders.
It's not just about making sure that you're making the right, best decision you possibly can for the company or organization.
It's also recognizing that there will be a lot of forces working against you, working to distract you.
And some of those forces come in the form of the opinions of other people.
Whether well-founded or well-researched or well-informed, we can let the opinions of others sway us negatively.
But now you have evolved, Nancy, to this point where you're unfazed by this.
So can you tell us about this evolution and how you think about communication as a result?
After versus before?
Yes.
Great questions.
So I think it sounds a little harsh to say, I truly don't care what people think of me.
We all want people to like us.
And that's just inherent.
That's who we are as human beings.
Once you realize that it doesn't matter what you do or what you say, Not everyone is going to like you and not everyone is going to support you, even if you think they should, for good reasons.
Once you realize that you can start acting in true integrity, true authenticity.
Here is who I am.
Of course, I'm going to listen to your opinion and here's mine.
And if that's going to lose me a vote, I'm OK with that.
So.
That has been really a game changer.
And it's interesting because even after getting elected, even now, I have conversations with people and I have to preface it by saying I want you to know, I heard you.
I don't agree with you.
That doesn't mean that I didn't hear you.
I heard you.
Here's my viewpoint.
You're probably not going to like it.
I say that probably five times a week.
And it's Rather than beat my head up against the wall, trying to get these people to understand the people that I'm differing views of, trying to get them to understand and agree with me, it is easier for me to say I'm going to try to state my opinion, I'm going to state it and I'm going to articulate it, hopefully persuasively.
If they do not see that point and they decide not to support me for whatever reason, I'm okay with that.
I wrote down.
A couple days ago I went on a vacation to clear my mind and I said I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to make a difference.
That thought popped into my head.
And again, it sounds like, wow, isn't she doesn't she think she's all that in a bag of chips?
And I don't.
I'm not here to make friends.
I'm here to make a difference.
And that's going to alienate some people, or that's some people are going to be upset with my policies.
And that's OK.
That just is.
So I don't lose sleep over that anymore, whereas I did.
I did six months ago and I don't anymore.
And it's incredibly liberating.
And it's liberating as a leader, too.
Yes.
And I want to go into that feeling of liberation too, because a lot of us can be imprisoned within a trap of other people's opinions and emotions.
And we don't even recognize how it's limiting us and holding us back from doing what we want to do and saying what we want to say.
And there is a fear that holds us back.
We can see a cage of uncertainty. others' creation that can hold us back.
And we're saying, I don't even want to touch it.
I don't even.
Yeah, hypothetically it would be cool if I was free from this cage, but I'm not even going to try to break free because it will hurt.
And what you're saying is that I've been on the other side.
I'm at this point where there's so many arrows that have been slung in my direction that I realized that this is the price of progress.
So if I'm going to try to do big things and I'm trying to make a difference in my own way, this is one of the consequences of that.
And now I'm free.
And so can you just speak to just how that feels, now that you're not allowing other people's opinions to hold you back inappropriately.
It has brought me much needed more peace than before.
It has taken kind of the shackles off in that before.
I might have said well, before I opine on this, I got to think about what these people are going to say, and what are these people going to say?
And I don't want to upset these people, not not for votes, but because I care about them.
You know, they're they're people that that are in my community.
I care.
And.
I'm never going to make everybody happy.
And I will run myself into the ground.
And so will you as a leader.
You will run yourself into the ground if you try to make everybody happy because you can't.
You can't.
And that doesn't mean that you're authoritarian.
It doesn't mean you're a dictator.
It means that if you can get it right 80% of the time, that is all you can ask of yourself.
And once I realized that the stress kind of dissipated and I was able to actually enjoy what I was doing.
Hello, my friends.
Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations?
At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills.
Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered.
Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute.
Click the link in the description to find out more.
Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.
It is powerful.
And I'll tell you, for me, that's something that I've been working on for my whole life.
And I just recognize that you get to different levels and then you have to relearn that in different ways with different people under different circumstances.
And I think a lot of people who are listening can identify with being a people pleaser or needing to overcome that.
And then you've had to deal with the fear of most people pleasers.
Like people don't like me.
They don't agree with me.
I'm not getting that approval or validation.
And a lot of times that stems from the fear of abandonment and a bit of a scarcity mentality where we say that this person, this relationship, this is what I need.
I cannot survive without this.
And so it's really encouraging.
Not only, first of all, to recognize that we can overcome this, but also recognizing that you, as a communication expert, you're relearning this and putting it into practice.
And as a result, you feel more free and more effective.
I learned that I'm a closet people pleaser.
I never in a million years thought I was ever.
You know, I grew up the youngest of four.
I grew up pretty scrappy.
I'm not afraid to advocate for myself.
And I learned that I am a closet people pleaser.
So when I can recognize that And just kind of check myself and say OK, why are you acting in this way?
This could be in, you know, when I'm speaking, when I'm coaching, when I'm, you know, in the government job.
You know you're not going to keep.
Everybody's not going to be happy.
So what is the best decision to make at the time?
And just follow my instincts and just own it and step into it.
It's all we can do.
It's all we can do.
Agreed.
Agreed.
And I think this is so powerful too, because there's no real step by step process that you can take in order to do that
It's kind of like jumping into a cold pool.
You don't do that incrementally.
You just kind of have to deal with it, jump in, and your body will acclimate.
You have to trust in your own resilience and know that you will acclimate.
And for you now transitioning into the communication aspect of it, the strategic communication, communication and what has shifted because again, i just i always want to hammer this home you are still a communication expert before this right, and now your approach has shifted because of this experience.
So what are some of the biggest learnings?
Okay, that people want you to take a stand, And I remember the first we didn't really have any debates.
We had a panel where we were asked questions and I had my talking points.
I had my rule of three, you know, remember things in threes.
And what are your main points that you want to continue to get across?
And I had that whole I had a whole strategy and I was able to stick to it.
You know, one of the things that I teach is if there's three things, that let's say it's a job interview.
If there's three things, you want the interviewer to remember, what are those three things?
And you weave them throughout your entire discussion.
You know same thing with a client presentation.
It's what are your three things?
So I had all of those and I was able to do that.
At the same time, people will call you out if you do not answer their question.
And I tried to do what we saw in some of the debates, right?
You don't ask the question that you don't answer the question you're asked.
They answer the question that they want to answer.
And I tried that and it didn't work.
So it just didn't work, because Then you have.
So, let's say, somebody asked me you know, what do you think about?
Should we have milk chocolate or dark chocolate in the town?
Right.
And I say, well, you know, I think all chocolate is good.
And in my experience, I've had milk chocolate and dark chocolate and there's benefits to both.
And you know, rather than talk about the chocolate, really what we should be talking about is X Y Z, whatever that is does not work.
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
A, you'll lose votes and B, people will say, well, you didn't, you didn't answer my question.
So.
I'm going to ask it again.
Or, you know, you didn't answer my question.
I'm going to pull you aside.
Or you know the newspaper will say you know she talked a good game, but she never answered the question.
So it's a spotlight.
I mean there's the spotlight of leadership which many of us who are in leadership have experienced.
The spotlight in public office is 10 times as bright, a million times as bright.
It's everything you say is recorded, and everything you say can and might be used against you in the future.
It's Wild.
Wild.
You know what's funny?
And tell me what you think about this.
I think let's use comic books as an example.
In comic books growing up for decades, for years, we always have a hero and we have a villain.
And now we have the era of the anti-hero, right?
Like Deadpool.
He's not a traditional hero, but we still love him because of all his flaws and everything.
And I feel like we're in an age of politics where we have the politician and the anti-politician, where the rules of politics that used to exist no longer exist anymore.
And we're looking for people who are bold, who will say things.
Even if we disagree, we will say, at least I know where they stand.
At least I'm clear.
I know who they are.
I might not like who they are, but at least know who they are.
And so tell me what you think about that perspective, as it relates to the way that you answer questions.
I think I agree with you 100 percent.
The challenge with that and one of the first things that I have said and will continue to say, one of the things I said when I was running I can't say it anymore is I'm not a politician.
I have no interest in politics.
I didn't and I don't.
I was running because I think I can help move the town forward.
It is that simple.
I don't, you know.
People ask me oh, are you going to run for a Senate next, or what about?
You know?
Blah blah, blah.
No, I'm not.
I don't.
I'm going to do this job and then I'm going to go back to my life.
And no, I'm not interested in politics.
As much as I say that you can't be in a government role and not succumb to some politics, you will not be effective, or some political positioning, or capital, or however you want to phrase it.
So the long answer is I am the anti-politician.
And at the same time, if I want to be able to do what I want to do, I have to play the game.
I have to.
I won't be able to get it done.
And it's the same thing in business.
You can be true to who you are.
You can be authentic.
You can stand in your integrity.
But, or at some point You're going to have to play the game to some extent, or you're going to have to acquiesce or compromise, or however you want to phrase it.
Or you won't you won't achieve what you want to achieve.
So it's a little bit of a cognitive dissonance, I think, actually.
Yeah.
And I think I feel like a lot of times when we say, when we think about what a politician is, there is a
We might not know specifically what that entails, but we all know exactly what it means, right?
It's never a compliment.
And so nobody wants to be seen as a politician.
But then we have to recognize that in everything that we do of substance there will be a political element of it.
There are political elements within our family units that we need to pay attention with current family and extended family.
There are going to be political types of vibes within our organizations, the nonprofits, the churches, everything that we are involved will have political nature to it right.
So there's a difference between somebody who is a politician and somebody who accepts that politics are part of what is required to exist at a high level within any type of group of humans.
And so I want us to paint a Clear a picture too, because when you say I'm not a politician, that speaks more to your integrity and clarity of communication.
You're not pulling the wool over the eyes of the voters.
You're like, here I am.
But then, when you're playing the game of politics, we recognize that in order to get things done, you have to make some deals.
They won't always feel good, but that's how you make things happen.
Right.
That's it.
To a T, And I want to go back to one thing, because this was the perfect opportunity to talk about it.
What I learned is, for some people, the reason why I didn't want to answer a specific question one specific question was because I knew that that half the room wasn't going to like my answer.
And I believe that we are more than that one answer.
So this is, this goes to one issue voters and I experienced it before the U S election.
So, you know, you could agree with me on 95% of the things going on in our town.
And this one issue that's important to you.
If you don't agree with me, so you're going to go with someone else, because 5 of the time I didn't agree with you.
It, to me, it's, It's dangerous and it's polarizing and it's very short sighted.
And that's why I hesitated to answer the questions, not because I wanted to be sneaky or slippery, but because I knew, the minute I answered that question, that person was going to tune out, turn off and vote for someone who was less qualified, maybe or maybe not a good candidate.
So I didn't want to see them make that mistake.
And it wasn't about ego.
It was about.
I can disagree with you on this one issue and we can still have a very positive collaborative, forward-moving relationship.
I have the emotional maturity to be able to do that.
I can disagree with you on this one thing.
We can move together.
We can still move forward together.
A lot of people feel so strongly about that one issue.
They can't.
So it was kind of in my head I was trying to save, save the conversation, like move it away from this one thing, because it's about so much more than this one thing.
And at the same time, for some people, it's not.
And that was a big learning for me.
That one thing is everything.
It's tough.
And it's especially tough because it feels a little bit helpless, because you're saying I want to be authentic, but I recognize that in my authenticity I might lose people.
And that's a tough situation.
And it's the reality for so many people who are operating at a high level.
We are constantly bombarded with that.
And that can create a lot of noise in our heads as it relates to making good decisions and taking actions and being authentic.
And I think for the folks who are listening, who are in leadership positions, they're going to run into similar situations where they're trying to make a call.
They're trying to get everybody rowing in the same direction when it comes to a strategic approach that we're going to use.
So, as leaders, as we're communicating this vision to people who are on our team and we recognize that, similar to politics, there are going to be some people who agree.
There are going to be some people who disagree.
How can you still be that bold, visionary leader?
And communicate authentically, while making sure that we can at least get people on board enough to row in the same direction.
It's by having the conversations.
You know, I just had a conversation with someone yesterday and he is very, very strong willed and very strident in his beliefs.
And at the end of the conversation, he's... And we don't agree on something.
And at the end of the conversation he said well, you know, I can always count on you to give it to me straight.
I can always count on you to have a productive conversation.
And even though we don't agree, I learn something every time I talk to you.
And that's all like... That's enough for me.
That for me is enough.
We're not going to agree on this.
Could you consider this point of view?
Consider this.
I'm not trying to shove it down your throat.
I'm saying consider it.
And...
I know you're probably still going to have your same viewpoint on this.
I'm going to have mine.
I'm asking you to consider this alternate view.
And if I can do that with as many people as possible, that to me, that's success.
It's not necessarily winning my point.
It's getting people to understand that the other perspective, which is all about persuasion, which is, that's it.
Yes, I agree.
And sometimes the most persuasive thing you can do is validate and respect the other person's perspective and say we don't see eye to eye on this and that's okay.
I want to learn from you, and here's some information that can help you to see where I'm coming from too.
And if we leave this conversation, understanding each other a little bit deeper, then that is still a mutual win.
And if you can have that straight talk at the beginning and set that expectation, then it makes things a lot smoother because now we're not going into this conversation with the hidden agenda of me trying to convince you, you trying to convince me.
Neither of us achieve our goals so we both feel bad unnecessarily after the conversation.
And when we think about persuasion, it doesn't mean that we convince them to agree with us holistically on every single thing that we are saying.
And I think what is surprising to a lot of people is that sometimes the best persuaders are people who can get somebody on board with an agenda or a strategy, even though they don't fully agree, but they trust the process enough to move forward.
And I think having a more realistic perspective on what is achievable in these conversations would make these conversations much more palatable and likely to succeed for everybody involved.
I agree.
I agree.
You should run for office, by the way, because that would be very...
You should.
I might actually use that tonight.
I have a meeting tonight.
I might replay this and say exactly what you just said.
Not going to try to change your mind.
You're not going to try to change mine.
Let's have a conversation about the different viewpoints.
That's all.
That's all.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, listen, Nancy, you have my vote.
We're not in the same jurisdiction.
You have my vote of confidence from a distance.
But again, before you go, I want to make sure that you get an opportunity to shout out and remind people about the core business that you have and how they can get in touch and how they can work with you.
Thank you.
First of all, if you are listening and you have not watched Kwame's breakdown of the first presidential debate, the one you did from the hotel room on YouTube, that was epic.
So that's the first thing.
Thank you.
I loved it.
I didn't get a chance to say that.
So I'm a speaker and a coach and you can find me at nancymadoff.com.
I also have a podcast.
I have a bestselling book called Unmute Yourself and Speak Up to Stand Out.
And I do one-on-one coaching and public speaking.
So you can find me basically just about anywhere.
And I just I want to help women especially, but anyone really thrive in their life and step into who they know they can be.
And that's what I'm here to do.
Amazing.
Nancy, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you, Kwame.
That's the power of a masterclass.
One topic, multiple lenses and real world application.
Negotiation isn't theory.
It's practice.
It's self-awareness.
It's choosing courage over comfort.
So pick one insight today and apply it in your next conversation.
Because skill doesn't come from listening.
It comes from doing.
I'll catch you in the next one.
Hey, if you're still here, that means you really liked this episode.
So why don't you leave us a review?
Five stars, please.
That really means the world to us and it helps other people find the show.
And now, I will catch you later.
