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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Erin, thanks for joining us today.
Kwame, I feel like this is a long time coming.
I'm very excited. We've been talking before we hit record. I feel like the vibes are high.
I feel like I'm gonna giggle.
I also feel like we're gonna learn some things and we're gonna talk through some things.
But you just make me smile, just fake in your presence.
So I'm so thrilled to be here.
Thank you so much, and I appreciate it.
We've been looking forward to this for a while.
So listeners, I was a guest on Aaron's podcast, and so we already knew that we vibed.
So this is great, and we're excited to have you, and tell the listeners about yourself and what you do.
Yes. So I'm Aaron Deal, I'm a Taurus.
No, but I am a Taurus.
but I am the founder and what I call chief edutainment officer of the company I founded improve it we are an improv infused talent development company for the new generation of work and I'm also a podcast host like Kwame and we since you've been on the show I don't even know if you know this we rebranded the name of the show so we're no longer the improve it podcast, which is the name of our company.
It's called Workday Playdate, because we really wanted to emphasize the fun that you could have at work.
It doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't have to be boring.
It can be fun. It can be playful.
So it's Workday Playdate with Improve It.
And I'm also an author, like in a keynote speaker.
We have a lot of things in common. And so I released a book in 2024 called, I See You, A Leader's Guide to Energizing Your team through Radical Empathy.
I've just been keynote -ing it up and facilitating workshops and loving what I get to witness, which is honestly what I call the aha, ha -ha moments in rooms. It's like when the light bulb goes off, but it's because people are laughing and having a good time.
Ooh. There is so much to explore here.
Everybody, you can see, this is going to be a fun episode.
code. What I want to do is set the stage.
Erin, for the person listening, if they are able to take what it is that you share with us today, and put it into action in their life, what changes for them?
Oh my god, everything.
Everything. Clearly this excites me, and I love this question.
If you're going through life and you feel like you're stuck, and you feel like you're pushing, and you're pulling, and life is arduous, and every day feels like an uphill battle.
If you can infuse the tips and tricks that we're going to talk about today into your life, you'll go from push and pull to ease and flow.
Your days will feel like miracles happening one after the after, after the other, because you're infusing joy into your life.
And I always say this, like joy is our birthright, just like abundance.
Joy is our birthright.
And as we go through the world, and I know all of your listeners negotiate in some way, shape, or form, right?
And whether that be negotiating with your family, negotiating at home, negotiating with your community, or an organization, you're leading people.
And sometimes when we lead people and we feel this great responsibility, we automatically we think it has to be serious and we have to put on our brave suit and this suit of armor and show up as this different version of ourselves.
Whereas the tips and tricks I'm going to teach you are already inside of you.
I'm just going to help you pull them out and your life will just feel so much easier and in flow because of it.
Oh yes. This is great.
And actually we should focus in on that aspect of fun and joy and levity and flow because it seems like those concepts are almost antithetical to the concept of negotiation.
And so for the listeners, they know we're trying to rebrand negotiation.
So anytime you're in a conversation and somebody wants something, that's a negotiation.
That does not mean the conversation needs to be negative and hard and tough.
shift, we talk about difficult conversations and I think a lot of times that becomes a self -fulfilling prophecy for people where it's a significant conversation.
And they say, like you said, you have to be serious.
You have to put the armor on and be somebody that you aren't and somebody that you don't truly want to be.
So I want us to have a bit of a paradigm shift, dare I say, this is a term I just made up, Erin, an aha ha ha moment might I add.
Yeah, yeah. That's great.
I love it. I love it.
Yes. So let's do a paradigm shift. How can people just fundamentally change the way that they approach these conversations so they don't feel like they need to be so serious and buttoned up even though it's a conversation of significance?
Oh my gosh. Such a good question.
And let's just say this, I negotiate all day long with my six -year -old.
He's six and when we talk about negotiations, you're talking any conversation where you're trying to get something out of it, right?
And so I don't necessarily come at him with this buttoned up approach, but when I'm in business deals, when I'm having conversations, even with my team, when they're negotiating something that they want, or when we have a client negotiation going in process, I almost feel like this side of my brain turns on, which there's some science behind this, and I love to first and foremost just give it, I'm gonna give a scientific lesson right now on top of also bringing the fun, but truly, our brains are almost like muscles, right?
Like they're not actually a muscle, it's an organ, but the more we use it, the more neuroplasticity it has, and the more that we can train it to work in a way that actually allows conversations like this to be fun, the easier it gets.
And so the first thing, when we go into these conversations, is we have to have the paradigm shift of our thoughts.
And I might've talked to you about this before.
This is a known study, but I'm just gonna share it.
So according to a study from the National Science Foundation, here I am with my science, Bill Nye, call me Bill Nye.
So the average human thinks between 50 ,000 to 80 ,000 thoughts per day.
And of those thoughts, we form what are called thoughtworms or strings of sentences, and we think 6 ,200 thoughtworms per day.
Kwame, of those 6 ,200 thoughtworms, what percentage of them do you think are negative?
Well, out of the 6 ,200, probably 9 ,000 ,006.
Yeah, right? Right?
It's crazy. It's 80 % of our thoughts.
80 % of the thoughts we think are negative.
So like if we're going into these conversations already having a negative train of thought, they're gonna suck.
Like, it's not gonna be fun.
If we're thinking already negatively about ourself or the other human that's on the other side, it's gonna not be what we want it to be.
It's not gonna be productive, number one.
Number two, we're gonna get that sort of buildup in our body where we overanalyze and we have anxiety about it before it even happens.
And if we can change and shift our thoughts, then we can change and shift the words that we speak.
So I have an activity I use, and I can go through this piece and then get into the word segment that helps us change our thoughts in real time.
So would you like to do it?
Let's do it, yes. You wanna do it, okay.
Okay, so it's pulled from the improv stage, but the good news is you don't need a stage or a scene partner to make it work because your single partner is your mind, mind, mind, mind.
And that that was your mind being blown.
OK, so. So anyway, you can do this by yourself or you and I could do it together.
So let's do it together since we're here.
Let's do it. Here's the deal.
So let's say let's pretend who who's somebody in your life that you're negotiating with right now, like who's like a real life scenario.
It could be family.
It could be personal, professional, whatever.
Let's see. You know what, you talked about your six -year -old, I'll talk about my nine -year -old.
Kai. Kai, you said?
Kai, yes. Kai. Oh, I love that name.
Solid name choice. Okay.
When you think about an upcoming conversation that you have with Kai, what thought comes to mind?
If it's negative, that's great.
That's fine. Well, it's not negative.
It seems extreme. It's discipline.
Yeah. Discipline. But what about discipline?
What thought, like what do you think when you think about discipline?
Like I have to discipline him?
Yeah, well, actually not that one.
It's more like I want him to have discipline.
I got you. His life is, I don't think sometimes he doesn't realize that his life is pretty easy.
So I want to make sure that he has the discipline necessary to withstand the bumps and bruises of life.
So hey, not everything is going to be done for you.
So he does the trash every week.
That's nice, but starting to get him to do the dishes and things like that more consistently without the labored sigh that often comes whenever I make requests.
Okay. So, so your thought when you enter that conversation is I want him to have discipline, right?
So in that moment, do you think he wants to have discipline?
You know what's funny about this, Erin?
No. This is bringing up something really interesting to me, because it's almost like there's a script that I have in my mind.
I'm like, okay, I need to give discipline and then he's going to fight back.
Then I give him this sitcom dad speech, and sit him down, son, sometimes in life, you have to blah, blah, blah.
And I realized that a lot of times, the majority of the time, he's just like, yeah, dad, you know what?
I did this and it was wrong because of that reason and I should have done that.
It was a bad strategy.
My mistake. I'll do better.
And he says all the things that I would have said.
And I just sit there like what...
Like I'm almost disappointed that I didn't get to do my speech. Because you're like cue the full house music.
Exactly. You know? Cue the sitcom music.
I want to do this. So okay.
So the first piece is especially like with this activity when we're relating it to somebody else and we have a thought about somebody else it's just in the moment admitting what that thought is and then at that step one is just saying the thought step two is clapping and saying new choice and what you're gonna do with that new choice is you're gonna change it from what you want to what you think the person on the receiving in wants?
What's the choice that you could, what's the new choice you could create so that Kai, when he hears you coming, will be like, ready to give you that speech, but in an authentic way, what could you say to yourself?
Cause this is your thought, nobody else is hearing it.
Right now, this is a hypothetical activity, we are hearing it, but like in your mind, what could you say to yourself when that thought comes up to Kai?
Hmm a simple one is let's make it fun Yes Yes, make it fun and like, you know, you could get out like I don't know what toys He plays with my sons into like transformers You could get out Transformers and like do like a mock fun thing of what you're trying to teach them you could take them to the baseball field and Say like hey, let me give you a sports analogy.
Like you can make it fun.
Right and so Just saying that clap new choice disrupts that pattern.
And your thought wasn't necessarily negative.
It was just focused on what you want, right?
So the new choice is what's the new choice in this that can flip the script and make it a choice that Kai, not necessarily wants, but needs.
Like how can I approach this with a new choice and that lover flip, your reframe was, let's make it fun.
Like when you said that first of all, what I saw was your eyes lit up and you smiled really big and you were excited.
And like what if you approach, so you have scenario A, you went to CHI and were like, I wanna talk to you about your discipline.
And then, well the outcome would probably be like a strong serious conversation.
And scenario B is, let's have some fun.
Hey, I'm gonna take you to the baseball field today And I'm going to give you an analogy about how to hit home runs every day with your health, with your grades, with XYZ.
And you're experiencing it with him in a really fulfilling way and he'll remember that because you've brought fun and energy to it.
It's just a way to flip the script with your own thoughts.
This is brilliant. And let's focus in on that word script too, because it's kind of like we can have the scripts in real life, but like in media.
But we also have the cognitive scripts, the heuristics, the, the playbooks that we follow.
And it's almost like, as social primates, you know, all we do is we just follow these scripts, and we think it's free will a lot of times.
And so we start off an interaction in one way, almost guaranteeing a specific type of result, like, just with the same examples, like, let's have a conversation about discipline, and then he rolls his eyes.
And then I say, well, son, you shouldn't do that, either.
Yeah. No, nobody's having fun.
And then when you said my eyes lit up, because I realized that I'm following these scripts where work doesn't have, work should not be fun almost. And so you and I, we've created companies where work can be fun, but I realized that at home when it comes to chores, I still have this idea that it needs to suck, and so now he has that idea too.
So, so instead I could, in what was so exciting is that it's a paradigm shift for how to orient myself in the conversation and start the conversation in a different direction, but also a life shift for me because I said, why do I make all of my chores boring?
This is mind blowing already.
And you could like, you know how you make your Suno music.
Okay. You could create, and I don't know if y 'all know this when Kwame was on my show, he taught me about Suno, which is this app, it's an AI app that helps you create songs.
And now I was telling him before we hit record, that I am the coolest person at every party because I bust out Suno and create a song for the party with my friends.
And they're like, how are you so cool?
And I'm like, Kwami.
So you could create a Suno song about chores.
Like whatever the chore is, it's like taking out the trash.
You create a song, put it on the speakers in your house and make it fun.
And just even like surprise him while he's doing it, you know?
And I don't know, there's the fun to me.
That shift, that new choice in your thought, in your thinking, is gonna change obviously the words that you say.
So can I get to the words part?
Cause I got another one for you on words.
Okay, so our thoughts affect our words and the words that we say out loud about ourselves and about others, They're, when I say they matter, I mean they matter.
My friend Judy Haller says this, that words are wants.
So whatever we're speaking, we're like taking a magical wand, like a fairy, and basically manifesting into the air.
Because what we say out loud, the universe hears it.
So, and this is, there's some more science.
I got science, okay.
When we say words out loud that have a positive connotation, a positive connotation of love, positive connotation of peace, we activate a very specific part of our brain, which is the frontal lobe.
And I'm like, this frontal lobe is such a cool space because it acts like a traffic control center, it sends signals to all areas of the brain.
And it allows logic, reasoning, clarity, all of that to happen.
And so when we actually say words out loud in these difficult conversations or before we go into these difficult conversations even more, we're activating the frontal lobe.
And if you've ever been in a really good meditation or had like a nice yoga class, and you walked away and you felt a lot of clarity and you felt like you were at peace, that's you activating your frontal lobe.
But on the flip side, if you activate, if you say words out loud that have a connotation of hate or conflict.
I know you know where I'm going.
You activate a different part of your brain, which I think is like the ugliest word ever.
It's called the amygdala.
Like, I feel like it talks like that, on the amygdala.
And it's like this ugly monster at the bottom of your brain.
And it literally is the fear center.
It's where fight, flight, freeze happens.
So when you activate it you also either like want to beat somebody up, run away or you just freeze like a deer in headlights.
And so this part of our brain does not send signals everywhere.
We just are stuck and it also releases a stress hormone which is cortisol.
So I act like I'm a doctor, I'm not a doctor.
Okay this is just research. And so but anyway when you are pissed off and you feel the blood flowing and rising in your body that's your or amygdala releasing this stress hormone.
So anyway, all of that to tell you the words that we say are really activating in our bodies.
And when you're gonna have this difficult conversation with somebody and you're talking about them, like let's, do we still wanna use chi or do we wanna change the example?
Give me another example of a conversation.
Do we wanna use chi?
Should we stay on chi?
Well, let's do a different one.
Let's do one, let's do a business one.
One that comes up a lot is you have to give feedback to somebody on your team.
Yes. Yes. Let's use that example.
Okay. All right. We're going to call the person you're giving feedback to Susan.
Okay. Because I just like...
I had a best friend named Susan growing up and I just like how I say it.
It's just a fun name.
And also two things.
Number one, I'm not talking about a specific Susan.
And if you actually have a Susan on your team, this is not about her.
Do you have a Susan?
Anytime I say this, people are like, my name is Susan.
I'm like, it's not you.
four out of the six people on our team are named Susan, so.
No! Okay, all right.
I'm just kidding, I'm kidding.
Not about you, Susan.
Okay, so, well, let's say that Susan thinks it's all about her, okay?
So you're having to give some feedback to Susan.
She's not being a great team player.
And like, you are now the person on the team having to give Susan this feedback, and Susan's coming into your office in two hours.
And all you've been doing is talking to your other teammates about Susan's poor performance, how she's not showing up, how she's not helpful, and how she's been stressing everybody on the team out because she's not doing her part, right?
So in your mind, the thoughts you're thinking about Susan are not great.
Number one, so you've got a choice it and you've got to reframe how to have that conversation with Susan in a way that she'll understand.
So change your thinking.
And number two, you got to change your words because you are activating the amygdala part of your brain.
So you're just stuck in that fear center.
you have no logic and reasoning because you're angry.
You're like, why do I have to have this conversation with Susan?
She sucks. And, you know, Susan has XYZ.
And so what this game sounds so silly.
But I'm a silly human, and it's called word. And I sometimes I'm like, word. And it is like the easiest thing you can do, but I promise you it works.
basically it goes has a little cheer with it and it goes like this 1 -2 -3 word 1 -2 -3 word 1 -2 -3 word..and on after the three you say word right so what happens you can do this in two ways I'm gonna do it towards Susan first is before Susan comes in your office or you get on zoom whatever you are gonna say instead of saying words, seven positive words about Susan before she comes in.
The magic number somehow is seven.
Before that it doesn't work...
seven or more. So when you start going one two three kind, one two three funny, one two three interesting, one two three silly, one two three trustworthy, one two three compassionate one two three fun and you keep going with those words it starts to activate the frontal lobe part of your brain because you start to think differently you start to gain more more of this sort of signal around your entire hemisphere of your brain saying I'm safe I'm not running I'm not about to beat somebody up, I'm not stuck.
And now, when Susan walks in the door, your mindset, because you've changed your thought, and you now, you know how you're going to approach Susan, what she needs, and you've changed the words that you've been saying out loud about her.
When she walks in, the frontal lobe is what I call loben.
It's all over the place.
It's like, let's go, Susan, I know what you need, and I'm not even gonna get stuck in the fear.
I'm gonna guess go ahead and say what we need to move forward and then she walks away and she's like wow Wami, like really saw me and he knows that I have some stuff going on at home and That's why I haven't been showing up for the team and the way I want to show up because I'm really stressed and you know What he saw that and we talked about it and I'm getting a mental health day tomorrow Because he knows that I need I need a moment and then I'm gonna show up next week as my full self but now he knows.
He took the time to listen to me, versus if you would've never done any of those things and just sort of had her come in your office after talking to the team and been in that amygdala fear center space with just negative words flowing all over the place, the conversation probably would've gone much differently.
Mm, that's good. And you know, the things that are coming to mind, we have of sunshine versus a thunderstorm.
So for me, as you're describing this, a lot of times when we think we're preparing for a conversation, we are just ruminating or brooding, just thinking over and over about why we are so mad about the situation, how scared we are, how annoyed we are with the other side, whatever it happens to be, and we're just rehearsing these negativity.
And really, when you think about it through the lens of neuroplasticity, where we say neurons that fire together, wire together, we're shaping our brain with every thought that we have. And then we are essentially reshaping our brain to be extremely negative and particularly negative towards difficult conversations, but in particular, difficult conversations with Susan.
Right? And so what we're doing is we're reprogramming our brain to a certain extent.
Going into this, we have to actually think and put cognitive effort into this, which activates the frontal lobe, which quiets the amygdala.
And the thing is, again, the person listening might say, well, it sounds silly, it'll look dumb.
I don't think anybody sitting there saying one, two, three and then a positive word, no matter what they think about the exercise, they can't do it while being mad.
It's like, it's not possible.
Yeah. But I want like to put a hip with it, do a little hip motion.
And if I'm on stage showing how to do this, I'm getting the whole audience doing a dip and a hip.
Okay, a dip and a hip because then it's like you're already laughing right that front lobe is lobing, you know Sorry to cut you off, but I had to throw up the hip.
It's so good. It's so good.
Yeah, and It brings a completely different energy into the conversation and to the really when you think about it Forget the outcome of the conversation.
Let's think about just the energy the energy can can dictate the outcome itself And again, people will follow the scripts we said, you know we sit here when we've been you know, just brooding with the thunderstorm over our head.
They turn on zoom, they see it, they feel it as I Well, let me just brace for impact.
Yes. Really tough. Yes.
Okay. I have so many thoughts of what you just said.
Okay, so first and foremost, I know the the activity feels silly.
And I tell people you don't do that.
You don't do the 123 in front of Susan, you're doing this like in a bathroom stall at the office.
You're like underneath your desk going 123 funny, one, two, three, whatever.
You're doing it, you can even do it in your head, but like the thoughts are affecting the outcome that you're outputting, right?
Like, so those thoughts are still changing the words that you say and the words that you say are still changing the way that that interaction goes with Susan.
And I love what you said, like we're forgetting these scripts, right?
And I just want to give us all permission as a lifelong improviser to throw away the scripts because like you and I today, We had no idea what we're gonna talk about coming in here and here.
We are. There's no script we're just ripping from her butts, and you know what it's like it's like That's a sound bite for you We put that on the internet But that's what I'm saying it's like the best thing the truth is in the cut we say comedy isn't like trying to be funny.
It's the truth in the comedy.
And like, that's the deal.
Like life is an improv scene.
We're all just making it up.
And so if you could start with your make -em -ups with better thoughts, like you get to choose, you get to make it up.
I love that point. You get to choose that.
So here, Erin, I'm going to try this today because I'm even thinking about this beyond difficult conversations because I'm definitely going to use it for difficult conversations.
I'm just thinking about anytime I come in with my own pre -prescribed way of thinking about certain things.
For instance, I get up early, go to the gym, take care of the boys alongside with Whitney.
I am not the whole hero in that story.
Whitney and I take care of the boys and then I have the work day, and then about as close to six as possible is when I go pick up Dominic from daycare.
Then as I'm pulling up, my energy is very, very low.
I'm exhausted because I've been up working and working out since like six.
So I say to myself as I'm driving in, I'm like, here comes the real work day.
This is Dominic at age three.
What kind of tantrums are we going to be dealing with?
And I'm just sitting there bracing for impact, ready to be abused by this boy.
Now I'm realizing, yeah, I love Dominic, and there are really good times that we have. And a lot of times he might just be picking up on my negativity, anticipating his negativity.
I have a silent tantrum and it triggers a real one.
So I think what I'm going to start doing is in the parking lot, instead of just sitting there and saying, let me enjoy my last few seconds of peace, I'm going to start doing this exercise and bring in that warm fatherly energy that I have when it's not the end of a work day.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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Let's actually talk about, let's talk about humor too because that's something that humor Humor can be extremely persuasive, but what's really, really interesting when I think about all of the literature on negotiation and difficult conversations, humor doesn't come up at all.
Because again, we're always following this script of, hey, this is how it's done.
But I remember one of the best pieces of feedback I had back when I was a mediator.
One of my colleagues, she was within earshot every time that I mediated, and she said, Kwame, something that's really interesting about your mediations is that I've never, ever heard people laugh as much as they do in your mediations.
You know, people are coming here because they've been litigating for months.
They hate the other side and everything like that.
But in a lot, dare I say the majority of them, at some point I got them to laugh when they are in their darkest days and it helped to close more deals.
And so let's talk about the usage, the strategic and intentional usage of humor.
But I think even deeper than that, giving people permission to be funny in these conversations.
Oh my gosh. Okay, first of all, I don't know if you know this but in my like early level improv days, a lot of people who took the beginner level classes were attorneys, and one of my greatest friends from my beginning level improv days is an attorney, like super high powered attorney, and they all, there was probably four of them in my class and they were using it for this reason because humor builds trust. And if you're thinking about, especially in these high power conversations as a mediator, like, oh my God, your job is so hard. You are literally there to defuse problems. And if you can get
people to smile, if you can get people to laugh, you're hitting that frontal lobe, You're allowing them to think more clearly which is honestly why I use improv as a teaching tool.
It's like the trickiest thing and I tell people I trick them into learning all day long.
Because I'm teaching you something, but you're not gonna remember really what I said.
You're gonna remember how I made you feel.
And there's a cheesy saying whatever.
I've already given like eight cheesy things out but I'm gonna give it out again.
It's like if you can pretend that every person has a sign around their neck that says make me feel important.
When you use humor, okay, yeah, I can say it again.
You pretend that every person has a sign around your neck that says make me feel important.
You allow, when you allow humor into a conversation, and by allow, I mean, you kind of have to be the initiator if you want it to be fun.
Energy is everything.
The way we show up the way we bring appear to people, the way we show up with our body language or tone, like all of that matters.
But if you allow humor into the conversation, what I think you're really saying is, I value this conversation.
I want you to feel important.
I want to laugh together.
It's like my people break bread and eat together, because usually you're sharing some type of laughter.
And so in these high pressure conversations, if you can make people feel something because laughter is like the best medicine.
There's all kinds of studies that show how it actually helps heal people.
I had the founder of Laughter Yoga from India on my show.
Like it's, it is wild what laughter can do for our nervous systems and for our bodies.
And so when you're bringing laughter into the conversation, you're actually allowing that person to take a break.
Like you're allowing that nervous system to calm down and not be so I have to do this.
I have to get to this point.
I have to make this next point in this conversation or nobody's going to get what they want.
Like you let it drop and you see the human being, not just like the human doing and everybody feels that ease, which is like coming full circle to what I said would happen.
Yes. Ooh, that's powerful.
That is powerful. and when you think about it, because we can understand the science of humor and understand the efficacy and we have all laughed and recognized how good it feels.
How can we help people to give themselves permission to be funny?
What is the thing that we can do or say to help the listener just let go?
Okay. I'm going to give it to everyone right now.
Everybody hold out your right hand, okay, and I'm dropping it in, this is your permission slip to be funny.
Nobody's talking to you, you can't.
And like no one except your thoughts.
And literally, like, if you work in a stale environment, listen, I've been this way my whole life and I have, I was a temp for many years in different jobs and I still showed up as myself because guess what it's a lot easier to show up as me than it was to pretend to be somebody I'm not so I'm I'm the class clown I've always been like a goof trope right and I've showed up in every stale breadcrumb office you can imagine in my 20s and people loved it and they begged me to stay and I'm just gonna say that I'm using myself as an example when you choose humor when you choose to find joy in yourself
you're choosing to live the life that you are intended to be whoever you want to call it God's source energy whatever universe puts you on this earth to enjoy it we're not meant to be here to suffer we're meant to be here as as souls on this earth to connect with one another to fulfill our purpose and to enjoy every freaking minute and so I hope that That little permission slip hitting your hand today gives you the ability to know that you already have it in you.
You just have to pull it out.
And a great way to start is like watch something you find humorous for like 10 minutes a day.
I have so many S &L things that I love and it just makes me laugh, right?
So then I'm like, okay, I'll put that.
That activated my frontal lobe.
So now it's like a muscle, like we said, the more I'm activating that muscle, like the more it starts to just be natural.
It's like going to the gym.
That muscle starts to build and eventually you want more.
So maybe the spaces and the places where you showed up where humor wasn't appreciated isn't the space and the place that you're meant to be anymore.
Oh man, that's powerful.
I especially loved the point where you said, nobody's saying that you can't.
When you said that, that just unlocked it.
I was like, yeah, that's true.
We just kind of go into these spaces and go into these conversations, acting like there are some rules on the wall that say, don't be fun.
It needs to be hard. It can't be enjoyable.
You both need to suffer through this interaction and it couldn't be further from the truth.
That's right. Let me say this.
I'm going to tell you a little case study about this.
Long time ago, I've had to improve it for 11 years.
Probably like four years into the business, we got asked by a government entity to come in and do a preview of a workshop.
One of the teammates was like, we're going to show a preview of a workshop to our boss.
These two teammates were so excited.
Like this is what our team needs.
We need some laughter and levity in the day.
We need, we do serious work.
We need some of this play at work.
And we teach real stuff.
We're not just coming into play.
Like we have 12 different workshops that we train on, But we came in and showed them our team building workshop and they brought in their boss.
And the boss, I realized right away what was happening.
The boss was the person who was like, this place is a fun vacuum.
All fun and good, innovative ideas are squashed.
And so he started doing the workshop and there was only like five of us doing the workshop.
We were demoing what it would look like, which we've never done and we'll never do again.
And he stopped it. he was like this isn't working and he like basically escorted me and my colleague out of the building and let me just say this that was years ago had that ever happened to me in this version of me there would have been so many different conversations happening I was a new business owner, to date we've trained over 49 ,000 people on our work and like we have a case study after case that proves it works and works with so many, like Fortune 500, 100 companies.
It's all that to say, that anomaly was so sad to me because I watched that team so desperately want joy.
Their heads were down when they walked us out.
They were so embarrassed, we had to go like a conveyor belt and put our stuff through it.
Like all that kind of stuff to enter and leave the building.
And like, we were just like, this is sad.
Like, this, we are actually super neat in this space, but because one leader doesn't think that fun and play equals productivity, we're not meant to be in this, or we're not allowed, I guess, in this space, and therefore, the team is gonna have to suffer.
I tell you, we can learn the skills, but it's hard sometimes for the skills to outperform the culture.
If you have a culture that is suppressing joy, really, you know, it's, it's hard for Joy to thrive.
Yes. And those, those two people who brought us in were so embarrassed.
They wrote us like a very kind email after, but like when it starts at the top when Joy doesn't come from the top and you have to fight for it.
Like if you're the type of person that, that embodies and, and really loves fun and joy, and you're not finding it where you are, I just want encourage you, again, here's your next permission slip.
You don't have to be in that room.
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's it was so sad to me.
And I like just when I talk to you, you have so much joy in your life.
You radiate joy and sunshine, like you, that is you, Kwami.
So like, I can't imagine you in serious rooms. I can't.
I can't. And for I mean, I've obviously been in them, but I'm always the one trying to lighten it up a little bit because and that's that's also a problem I worked on in therapy, okay, but humor to me is just I want to laugh, I love to laugh and I think when we allow it into spaces and places and conversations what we're really allowing as ourself to fully thrive we're allowing our highest self to shine.
And it's contagious.
Everybody wants to be near sunshine.
I agree. I agree. And now you've given us the skills and also the permission to be that sunshine in these tough conversations that now don't need to be that tough.
That's it. We can flip the script.
And so Erin, for those folks who are saying I need more Erin in my life.
Maybe you could recommend a book, a podcast, or a company that could help them in this journey.
I don't know any of them.
Nope, got nothing. I'm just kidding.
Okay. I think the easiest place to point you is to my website, itserindeal .com.
And you can get the book.
I see you on this website.
It'll take you to our podcast. Workday play date.
You have listen to Kwame's episode because it was so good.
It was in 2024, so just scroll back a little bit, and you can find all the keynote speaking reels, all the things there, but I am so proud of you.
Like, you have grown this show.
You've done so many wonderful things.
You should be proud of yourself for creating a platform and a space for people to bring joy to it and have conversations that are difficult, but with authenticity and love behind them.
Yes. Ooh, I love that.
Thank you, that means a lot.
I really appreciate you returning the favor and coming on my pod.
That means a lot. Yeah, and I loved being here anytime and just everybody listening, give him five stars, rate and subscribe, do all the things.
Thank you. I don't say that enough.
So yes, please leave a review five stars and if it's less than five stars, just send an email.
Don't yell. We don't want to yell.
Yell this time. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, my God. Well, you're the best. Thank you so much for having me.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better.
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