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Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of negotiate anything, with over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds.
We've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
Unresolved conflict, or our inability to resolve conflict, is the greatest existential threat to humanity.
We are more likely to tear ourselves apart from the inside than any foreign invader that we might face.
Right.
And it's we are our own greatest adversary, but also our own greatest advocate.
And if we can collectively, as a society, get better at having these difficult conversations, get better at collaboratively problem solving and not seeing each other as enemies but seeing each other as friends two imperfect people just sharing our versions of the truth, trying our best to make it through the day, I think we can make the world a better place.
All right everybody, welcome to a solo episode.
It has been a long time since I've done a solo episode, maybe years, potentially years, since I've done a solo episode.
So it's good to be back, and I think this is a good time to come back for one of these rare solo episodes because, for those of you who don't know, it is election season in the United States of America and I think in the.
As the CEO of the American Negotiation Institute, I feel obligated to produce something for such a time as this.
But from the global perspective, this year is breaking records in terms of elections.
Go democracy, I suppose.
But this year, over 50% of the countries in the world... are going through an election of some sort.
So this is massive.
So it's not just an American thing.
We're seeing this all over the world.
And so, with this episode, I just want to offer you some tips, some encouragement and some guidance as it comes to these difficult conversations that often come up in politics.
And the reason I wanted to do this this year is because this year, more so than any other year, we're having a lot of clients.
Some of our biggest clients come to us not for negotiation trainings or sales trainings in this moment, but they're saying hey Kwame, can you and your team come in and put on some programming as it relates to the conversations about politics and these types of issues that are coming up in the workplace.
Because when you think about not just in terms of domestic politics, but geopolitics as well, there's a lot happening in the US, in the Middle East, in Europe with Russia and Ukraine.
And so there are a lot of heated conversations that are happening in the workplace.
So they wanted to bring us in to help with those.
But I think it's really important to recognize that, with the work that we do at the American Negotiation Institute and our stance as it relates to talking about politics at work, we think it can be very divisive and it is very risky.
So I want to make sure that we give a disclaimer here that this episode is not meant to encourage necessarily people to talk about political issues at work, but it's more to recognize that, regardless of whether or not you want to talk about politics at work, it is likely that you might find yourself at some point in one of these conversations about politics at work and it presents challenges.
From the leadership perspective, the leaders in companies are concerned about these types of conversations because they can be divisive and they can damage team morale and team cohesion, which makes it more difficult for people to collaborate with one another and that makes the whole team less productive and less effective.
And so that was the driver behind a number of our clients bringing us in.
And so I really want to hammer home, yes, we are not encouraging people to have this conversation.
We're not saying that the workplace is the place for these conversations.
But if you find yourself in one of these conversations, or you find yourself so compelled to have these conversations, we should do it the right way.
So I like to think about the skill set utilized in these conversations as a conversational seatbelt.
We don't wear seat belts because we are hoping to get in car accidents.
We wear seat belts because it is possible that we could get in car accidents and we want to make sure that we are safe if that occurs.
Similarly, with these skills.
You might not want to find yourself in one of these conversations, but it is good to have the skills to navigate these conversations.
And, I also think, just simplifying this process.
It's important to think about this and other difficult conversations in one of two ways.
We need to have an engagement strategy, but we also have to have a disengagement strategy.
Because if you're going to wholeheartedly engage in the conversation, there's a way to do that.
If you want to disengage from the conversation, there is a way to do that.
And both of those situations.
Both of those considerations are equally as valid, depending on the circumstances.
So I want to jump into this episode at a unique place.
Not you talking directly to another person about politics, but I want to speak directly to leaders to start this off, when you, as a leader, find yourself in the middle of a political conversation, because this is a very, very challenging situation.
So let's say you have person a and person b and they do not agree with each other politically and they keep on going head to head in political arguments and it's causing problems in the team, it's causing problems between them, and then somebody comes to you and says hey, leader.
Can you handle this?
Person A and person B aren't getting along.
You need to figure this out.
So now you found yourself thrust into the midst of a difficult conversation that you were not prepared for.
So what do we need to do?
First of all, we need to take the time to prepare.
We often think that preparation needs to be this big, long, deep, robust thing.
And it's great if it is.
But sometimes what happens is, when we have very, very high standards for preparation, we almost run into this situation where we say well, if I can't prepare to that level, then what is the point of even preparing?
If you just take 60 seconds, just one minute, to just take a deep breath, Think through what your goals are and how you're going to approach the conversation.
That is better than nothing.
So first of all, just take whatever time you have to prepare.
Prepare strategically in terms of thinking about what it is that you actually want to say and how you will say it in the conversation, but also take the time to prepare emotionally.
How are you going to avoid triggers in this conversation?
How do you make sure that you maintain your emotional stability during this conversation?
So you need to understand what your triggers are and then create strategies to deal with those in the moment.
And actually with our clients.
In addition to the workshops and trainings that we gave them, we also made them a customized preparation guide.
So leaders and people who find themselves in these conversations could address those situations in a way that is a little bit more structured and they can feel more prepared.
And it was done in alignment with the company values.
It was really powerful.
But you don't need to have a professionally built negotiation preparation guide to do that.
You can do this on your own by just taking a moment and being intentional about the way that you interact.
And as a leader finding yourself in these conversations, I want you to think of yourself as a mediator.
You are a neutral party in this conversation.
I am not on the side of person A, I am not on the side of person B And, especially as it relates to conversations that are political, I am putting aside my personal political beliefs.
And the only thing I'm advocating for is the company.
The only thing I'm advocating for is the organization.
I'm advocating for team cohesion and functionality.
That's what I'm advocating for.
That's whose side I'm on.
And so that way you can very consistently say, listen, I'm not on your side or your side.
I'm on the team's side.
And my goal is to make sure that you two can get to a point where your relationship is good enough for us to stay functional.
I need to understand what the problem is so I can give you a solution.
And I like for leaders to say that explicitly and keep it almost as a mantra, not only for themselves but for other people, because naturally, during these conversations, the different people are going to be trying to pull you to one side versus the other.
But you need to make clear that when you're making decisions and when you're talking, you're advocating for the organization, you're not siding with anybody, because the consequences of seeming to be biased in one way or the other are not just limited to this single conversation and this single interaction.
The ripple effects of that will reverberate throughout the entire team.
Oh yeah, I went to this leader and then they sided with the person whose political ideology aligned with their own.
You lose credibility and it is going to be exceptionally difficult to get it back if that happens.
So these conversations are difficult yes, but I would say they're even more difficult for leaders, and more complicated, more complex.
So leaders, especially if you find yourself in this situation, just recognize you need to slow it down because the consequences of failure could be pretty significant.
Now let's go back to general tips on how to have these conversations.
Because one thing that often happens with these conversations is they start to spiral out of control.
When it comes to topics like politics, there's no real way to simplify that without almost disrespecting the topic.
Think about how complex these challenges are.
We're talking about foreign policy.
We're talking about immigration.
We're talking about health care and all of these really tough issues.
There's science behind it.
There's policy behind it.
There's so many different groups that are being impacted.
And there is a lot of emotionality that permeates the entirety of the conversation.
And because of that it is very easy for these conversations to become disorganized and spiral out of control, where you end up with two or more people emoting in front of each other and not really conversing.
So before we start these conversations, we need to get organized.
So we need to say, all right, what is your goal?
What is my goal?
And then what are the ground rules for this conversation?
Like, what does respect look like between us?
We want to establish these ground rules because then, once you agree on those ground rules, then once you have the conversation and somebody steps out of line, you don't just chastise them from your perspective and say hey, this is how it made me feel.
You say listen, at the beginning of the conversation, we agreed to a certain set of ground rules and what you just did was this, and that made me feel this right.
So, I would appreciate it if we go forward that we follow those rules.
And then, with that level of clarity, if somebody is consistently breaking those rules, or what some might call a perpetual line stepper,
If they are a perpetual line stepper, then you might recognize that this is not the time or the person to have this conversation with.
So then it gives you a clear cue to make your exit.
And we'll talk about how to make your exit later on.
But first just recognize that taking the time to align on a set of ground rules is really important.
And the other thing too.
I think it's beneficial in these conversations to make an explicit goal mutual understanding.
So, of course, these conversations often turn into a statement of identity and a statement of feeling, and almost turning into a combative altercation of intellectual superiority where it's like.
This is how I feel, this is what I think, and this is why you are wrong and why you should think like me.
And then the other person is thinking the exact same thing.
It makes it really tough, really tough to move forward.
But if you can instead frame this in terms of mutual understanding, then this conversation could be mutually beneficial, even though we don't end up agreeing with each other.
Because at the end of the conversation, my goal is to understand your perspective better.
And if you can get the other person to agree yes, their goal for themselves is also to understand you better.
And it's just an exchange of information.
I think that can make the conversation move a little bit more smoothly.
So it's not seeing the person as a threat but seeing this conversation as an opportunity to learn.
In my second book, which was How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, which is a negotiation book that I wanted to write in 2020.
That was tackling the most difficult conversation at the time.
But the way that I wrote that book is that it would be it could live forever as a tool for how to have difficult conversations about insert sensitive topic here.
Whatever the sensitive topic is, whatever it is that's making people more emotional than a standard conversation would be.
You can use this book as a tool.
We just focused it on race because that was the hardest conversation at the time.
And so in that book I introduced a topic, a framework for conversations called Level 1 and Level 2 Communication.
And you can see I'm very inventive with the names that I choose.
So let's start off with level one communication.
So the goal of level one communication is to understand and maintain or strengthen relationships focusing on the connection between you and the other person and mutual respect.
So you want to listen actively, ask questions and aim to understand rather than persuade.
So the goals are to learn, not teach, share, not preach and respect despite the differences.
So the goal is openness.
It minimizes defensiveness and builds trust.
And that's what makes it so good for sensitive topics like this.
But it requires a lot of discipline from both parties.
And then we can if you choose to.
I don't think the workplace is the place for this, but it does happen.
It's at that point, after you feel like you have a mutual understanding, then you can graduate to level two communication.
And with level two communication, the goal is to persuade or change behaviors, attitudes or belief.
So that's where you introduce evidence logic, targeted questions to make a persuasive case.
So at that point that's when you're trying to change minds.
But again, i just, i want to keep on hammering this home.
Um, i don't think this, i don't think the workplace is the best place for this.
But i'm saying, if you want to engage in such a conversation where you do get to persuasion, just recognize that there is a pathway to persuasion and it does not start with persuasion, which sounds really interesting, right?
It starts with mutual understanding, because think about times where somebody has told you you are wrong early in a conversation, before you had an opportunity to articulate your position.
And in your mind you're saying how in the world can you say I'm wrong when you don't even know what I think and how I feel and what I believe on this topic?
You have not earned the right to persuade me.
And so if you want to persuade somebody on a very sensitive topic like politics, you have to do it the right way.
And you have to do it by taking the time to understand the other person thoroughly, so then you can persuade with precision.
This is one of the biggest mistakes that people make.
Another thing, too, is that.
These conversations just go way too long.
At the end of the day, most likely, we just have two people who fundamentally disagree.
They have different values.
They have different worldviews.
And there is nobody in the world who, in this moment, within the timeframe allotted, could get either side to change their perspective.
This is me talking as a negotiation expert.
If you put somebody who is really locked in politically in their perspective in front of me and give me 10 minutes to persuade them, I couldn't do that.
Nobody who's ever been a guest on the podcast could, because some of these beliefs are so rooted and so tied to not just what they happen to be thinking at the moment, but they're whole identity.
It's not just something that they think, it is who they are.
And it is very difficult to change who somebody is in 10 or 20 minutes, right?
So if you really want to change somebody's mind, then pack a lunch and a dinner and get ready for a long conversation that probably has multiple iterations.
It'll probably take multiple interactions to persuade this person.
So if you really want to do it, do it the right way.
But most likely, you got work to do and you don't have time for this.
So I think there should be some kind of shot clock on these conversations.
You know, if we're talking about something like this five or 10 minutes I think that's a pretty healthy range.
But the longer these conversations go between people who have vastly different perspectives on a sensitive topic, that is not germane to the work that's being done in the organization.
I think the longer it goes, the more likely it is to break down, the more likely it is for us to say something that triggers the other side and then the conversation breaks down.
Sometimes conversations fail because they have gone on for too long.
And when you're in a conversation where neither side is giving an inch, neither side is adjusting and it's not a true negotiation in terms of we are driving toward a specific outcome, a joint conclusion, then these conversations can go on in perpetuity.
And it is up to you and your discretion and discipline to bring this to a close at the right time, right.
And I think a couple of signs could be utilized to demonstrate when a conversation has run its course.
So, first of all, if you're not feeling safe in this conversation and it's not germane to the work that you're doing, then at that point You have every right to leave.
You can just simply say, hey, listen, it sounds like this is something that you care about.
And I definitely respect that.
And also, I just want to be vulnerable with you in the moment.
I really don't feel comfortable talking about this at work.
So if there's anything you want me to know, I'll listen for a minute or two.
But there's nothing that I feel comfortable adding to this conversation.
So the strategy there is to validate the fact that it's important to them while also setting a clear boundary, saying even though it's important to you, i don't feel comfortable engaging.
If you have a message to send before we wrap this up, send that message, but i'm not adding anything else to the conversation.
Very simple validate and then give them one last opportunity to speak and then leave, and it's the exact same framework that you can use when you're exiting at a different time.
So once you start to recognize that they might be getting more triggered and more emotional, or you might recognize that you're getting more triggered or emotional, or you're recognizing that you keep on circling back to the same points over and over again, like I've exhausted everything that I want to say, but I have not exhausted my emotionality.
So I don't know what to say next.
That's new.
So I'm just going to circle back to the beginning and say that again.
Because maybe if I say it this time with a little bit more attitude, it'll break through, right?
Once you start to see that cycling, once you start to see people getting more emotional, maybe you start to see some attacks or you're lacking in psychological safety.
That's when you give yourself permission to leave.
OK, and it's just a validation and then give them one more opportunity and peace out.
Hey, listen, I really appreciate this conversation.
I you did a great job of articulating your perspective and I feel like I understand you better.
It seems like we're kind of going in circles, so I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.
If there's anything else you want to say before we wrap this up, let me know.
But I feel like we've reached our conclusion at this point. and then leave.
And I think a lot of times we overthink what it is that we need to do or say in order to exit a conversation safely.
It is really not that hard. validation, state your boundary, and then leave.
And so just before I go, I want to say again, this is a tough time for everybody.
There's a lot of confusion.
There are a lot of emotions.
There's a lot of fear.
But I think when you can really simplify the process of the conversations surrounding this complicated topic, it can give you a little bit more peace.
So when the world seems chaotic and scary, your conversation conversations don't need to be, because you have the skills and then you have the mindset, and then you also have the organization that you can utilize in these conversations to make it a little bit more palatable.
Again, like I always say, with all of these difficult conversations we can't make them easy, but with the right skill set and mindset we can make them just a little bit easier.
So let me know what you think.
And if you like this, please leave a five-star review.
I really appreciate that.
That means a lot to us.
This is something that we really care about.
And especially when it comes to topics like this.
My perspective is that unresolved conflict, or our inability to resolve conflict, is the greatest existential threat to humanity.
We are more likely to tear ourselves apart from the inside than any foreign invader that we might face.
Right.
And it's we are our own greatest adversary, but also our own greatest advocate.
And if we can collectively, as a society, get better at having these difficult conversations, get better at collaboratively problem solving and not seeing each other as enemies but seeing each other as friends two imperfect people just sharing our versions of the truth, trying our best to make it through the day, I think we can make the world a better place.
That's what I believe.
And that's what drives everything that we do.
That's why we have the podcast seven days a week.
We want to make sure that we are flooding the internet with as much free high-level negotiation and conflict resolution material as possible.
Because again, we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.
And our goal is to make the world a better place, one difficult conversation at a time.
Thank you all for listening.
I appreciate you as a listener.
And I hope you have a good one.
I'll catch you later.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
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All right, everybody, welcome to a special episode of the Negotiate Anything podcast.
This is kind of a behind the scenes episode, because I've been doing these training sessions with one of my mentees who is now actually on the team at the American Negotiation Institute, Minson Voe.
And now what we've decided to do is record these sessions and share them with the world, because we're talking about a lot of fun stuff.
And if we can help other people with it, might as well do that.
So I think a great way to start would be just giving you the stage for a bit Minson, and give you an opportunity to introduce yourself.
So Minson, thanks for joining us and tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Yeah, great.
So I'm Minson.
I'm a third year undergraduate university student.
And I just for some reason have this passion for negotiation communication, all things, human interaction.
It started in high school when I picked up my first negotiation book.
And ever since then it was just a domino effect that just went from this one to this one, to this one.
Started watching a lot of negotiation content keynotes, listening to a lot of podcasts and also talking to a lot of negotiators to get their insights on things.
And right now, I think I'm approaching my fourth year on this journey.
And I know I'm progressing, because I feel like I know nothing about negotiation, despite having four years.
The concept, it can be so simple, but so complex at the same time.
And that's what makes it so fun to me, because there's always more to explore, even though there's It's the same old principles in every single situation.
It's different.
You're a different person every day.
You're never going to face the same situation twice.
It's just this big game of life that I'm seeing in front of me.
So that's what makes me so interested in it.
But yeah, other than that, I'm really grateful to have these coaching sessions with Kwame.
Let's talk about our topic today, which is setting boundaries, learning how to say no, which is an essential part of any negotiation and essential part of life too.
Because anytime you say yes to something, you have to protect that yes with hundreds of no's in order to actually follow through with our commitments and live the life that we want to live.
And so what we're going to do audience is we're just going to have an open conversation about the challenges of setting these boundaries when this comes up.
And then we're going to actually do some role plays at the end too, so you can get a flavor of what this could look like.
So Minson, I know you've been doing a ton of research for AI and with your company as well, when it comes to negotiation and whatnot.
When it comes to setting boundaries, saying no.
What have you found as some of the most challenging aspects of that?
Oh, great.
So one thing is really communicating authenticity, maintaining credibility when you're saying it.
When I'm talking about that, I mean, say no in a way that makes the no seem real.
Now, I think that personally, you should never say it when it's not real.
You shouldn't just say no for the sake of saying no for no reason.
But if you have a genuine reason why you think you should say no, then you got to make sure the other person can feel it in the conversation.
So for me, the main challenge when I started negotiating was I kept thinking of saying no as a tactic.
Instead of, like that, I actually want to say no because I can't actually accept what they're giving.
So when another person would ask me to do something and I know I can't do it, but I'm thinking of no as like okay, how am I going to tactically execute this?
No, I literally would be sitting there just thinking for 15 seconds.
I'll be like, yeah, no.
They just saw me consider if the answer was possible or not, rather than just saying oh yeah yeah, I'm sorry, I just can't do that.
So I think for me, it's maintaining that authenticity while I'm doing it to make it real.
Yeah.
And I think this goes down to one of the most important tenets of our approach to negotiation here.
It's the authenticity, keeping it real, being genuine, because if you're kind of playing games, then it's easy for people to see that you're playing games or they might misread it and consider it hesitation.
If the answer is no, and it's a true no, then it's easier for it to be believable, simply because it is true.
And going back to that point that you made about considering the no one of the things we have to do in our preparation is understand very clearly not just what we want but also what we don't want.
So we can have that clarity in the middle of a conversation to say yeah, we're running up to a boundary.
So I can really clearly articulate that no.
A lot of times what ends up happening is we haven't thought through our boundaries.
And so somebody asks a question that we haven't really considered.
And then we think about it and then we give a tepid or hesitant no.
And a good negotiator kind of be like a shark.
They smell the blood in the water.
Hmm, that no didn't seem very strong.
So I'm going to turn that into a yes, because they're probably playing the game.
So that preparation and authenticity and being clear with that communication is going to be critical.
Oh, yeah.
When you mentioned like knowing it when you go into conversation is a big thing to having it in a place in your mind where it's not going to get lost while you're in the depths of the negotiation.
I think that's really important.
When I was doing simulations, it was harder to say no because it's a simulation, so it's not real.
And when it's not like real, real, it's not at the top of my mind what my boundaries are.
I'm like crap, I forgot the facts.
But in real life i'm like okay yeah, i definitely can't do that, i definitely can't do this.
So 100 yeah.
And i think we have to recognize too that this ability to say no, it will apply in every aspect of our life.
So it's going to be on our personal life, our business life.
It might be a transactional negotiation, or it might be us as people working on a team, leading a team, those type of things.
We have to understand what those barriers are and for me, i think Approaching this with a little bit of simplicity helps to make it a lot easier.
So having a framework that we can put in place when it comes to no, how to actually say no.
A book reference for you and for the audience, The Power of a Positive No by William Ury.
He was the co-author of Getting to Yes.
I talk about this in my own books, but the inspiration for my model comes from that book.
So I call it the no sandwich technique where you have a no that is sandwiched between two yeses.
So first is a yes to what it is that you're already committed to.
And then there's going to be a brief and succinct no.
And then there's going to be a yes to the continuation of the relationship or the continuation of the negotiation.
So for a very simple example.
So Minson, let's say we're chatting or you're asking hey Kwame, can you hang out Friday morning at nine o'clock or Saturday morning at nine o'clock?
And I say yes to my original commitment.
Right.
So on Saturday morning, I actually am going to be watching my son play soccer.
That's the yes.
That's my commitment.
And then I will say, so unfortunately, I can't hang out on Saturday morning.
So that's the quick no.
And then the yes is to our relationship, or the continued negotiation where I'd say but I'd still love to hang out.
So let's talk through some other times where we could get together.
So it is a really simple framework for how to say no.
That actually could strengthen the relationship too.
Wow.
I've heard it done before, but I never really thought of it in that type of framework.
Yeah, it makes it so simple.
I think it's super helpful.
And the thing is, sometimes people, when I'm doing trainings and whatnot, they'll say okay well, what if I say that and it doesn't work.
What if they keep on pushing?
I say, well, in that case, clearly the person's hungry because you feed them another no sandwich.
And this is, I think, another nuance of how to set boundaries that people often miss.
They feel like they need to diversify their response.
So I said no one time, maybe they didn't get it.
So let me say no in a different way.
Let me come up with a different reason.
You only need one reason to say no, and that's it.
You don't need better reasons to say no.
So you just reiterate it.
So you just say, hey, like I said before, I've got this soccer game on Saturday, so I can't do it.
But if you want to figure out a way for us to try to make this work, let's keep on chatting.
And you just keep on cycling through the exact same framework with the exact same points.
You don't need to diversify the reasons for setting the boundary.
Right.
And it seems like creating focus, your mindset, is also really, really important in these types of situation, especially what you focus on.
Because if you're in a situation where the other side let's say you're a small startup and bigger company wants to acquire you and they have all the leverage
That's kind of a very big situation compared to what we talked about.
But in those situations, it's really hard to say no when you know you have no leverage.
And it seems like it would be better to focus on creating value or collaboration in those scenarios rather than oh crap, how do I do this?
How do I tread carefully on this without ruining this deal?
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about leverage, because I think leverage is a really important factor of analysis here too, because there's never a situation where you have no leverage.
We have limited leverage for sure.
We have to be creative about it.
So we have to understand the distinction between power and leverage.
So power is something that is kind of embedded.
There's an authority, like a rank that's in place.
So within a company, you might have somebody who outranks you.
They have more objective power.
In that example that you gave, it might be a large company trying to acquire a small company.
They have more name recognition.
They have more money.
That could be a source of power.
But leverage, on the other hand, is situational and strategic advantage.
So you might not have power, but you can, with creativity, find some source of leverage too.
So, going to that example of the small business, maybe their source of leverage is they have a patent, so that's something that could protect them.
Or maybe the source of leverage is they have unique industry knowledge that could be beneficial, or some customer relationships, those type of things.
So if you are really clear on your unique source of leverage, you can come to the negotiation table feeling a little bit more empowered, even if you don't have a traditional source of power.
And when it comes to setting boundaries and negotiating, especially if there's a power dynamic that's not in your favor, We have to think about the situational circumstances that are at play.
That creates that dynamic.
But then we also have to think about the psychological impact, because it's not just that you don't have power.
It's that you also feel powerless at the negotiation table which has a psychological impact, which changes the decision-making approach that you have.
And so if you can... a little bit more empowered, then you come to the table negotiating differently.
And you're not going to be as willing to let people infringe upon your boundaries.
You're focused on your own source of power as well.
Oh, that's helpful.
Yeah.
The difference between power and leverage.
So you say the power is positional, your status, I'm assuming your ability to influence, because that's also leverage.
But I'm just going to say, like you're positional, it's positional, but leverage is more specific, situational.
Exactly.
And I remember...
Yesterday, I was reading something.
So one thing you can do to empower yourself and now I know how to apply this ask yourself, before a conversation or negotiation, just the question of what are my strengths coming into this conversation?
Just go over all of that in your head, and that will change your focus on it.
Let's use us as an example, right?
Because I'm the CEO of AI and then you're helping us with research and all these different projects.
So I have more power over you within the company.
But then when it comes to let's talk about that super top secret artificial intelligence project we're working on, right.
You've done more research on it than I do.
You've actually interacted with the product a lot more than I do.
So I have more rank within the company, but you have more strategic expertise advantage in this interaction because you actually have information and I need that information from you.
When it comes to leverage, a big part of analyzing leverage is a needs-based analysis.
Who needs the deal more?
Has more relative need?
So yeah, you could say, yeah, Kwame is the CEO.
He has all the power and leverage.
But you have something I need, which is information that came from the work that you put in.
Yeah, 100%.
That's something.
And From my experience going among these different negotiation methodologies just out of curiosity, is that a lot of modern methodologies don't put enough emphasis on it.
And it's like okay yeah, you shouldn't go in the situation with the mindset of destroying the other side or threatening the other side.
Though leverage should always be in the back of your head, or even sometimes in the front of your head, because it's always important.
It's a force that's always there.
And you recommended me a book a while back The Bargaining Advantage, believe that's the name by Richard Schell.
And there it explains it like very, very well.
I forgot if it was him, because I did hear this from other sources.
Well, but leverage can be divided into three types positive negative, normative.
And sometimes you may not have one, but you may have the other.
Yeah, 100%.
And yes, that was the book.
And I think, in terms of analyzing power versus leverage and going down into it, that's the best book on the market.
Bargaining for Advantage on it.
I think other people who addressed it pretty well Stuart Diamond and Jim Camp did well in their books.
But yeah, and I would even push that analysis too, when it comes to the leverage.
Because when you have positive normative and negative with positive power, we're talking about what are things I can add to your life to make your life better.
Negative, this is more on the coercive side.
What are things that I can do to make your life worse?
And then normative, this is like the societal advantage.
How does society look upon me and this deal and this situation?
I would even go a little bit further.
You have psychological power.
Psychological power can come from confidence.
It can come from intimidation, whether or not you feel intimidated.
So somebody could feel intimidated, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the person is trying with intentionality to be intimidating, right so that psychological leverage is going to be part of it, leverage from information like that's the example you would have over me when it comes to the ai project.
You've just done more research, and when you start to think about the different layers of leverage and power and where it could come from now, negotiation becomes a lot more fun, because you can always be an empowered negotiator even if you don't have a classical source of power.
Why don't?
Yeah man, it's cool.
Let's run through the exercise.
Let's keep it super real because let's just say I'm a hard charging CEO running a little consulting firm trying his best to change the world.
And I'm pushing my employee, which is you in this situation, a very realistic scenario.
Yeah.
As to do more work, you have things to do.
You're still in school.
You're in this amazing new program and everything like that.
So you have to let me know, hey, man, I can't do all this stuff.
So based on what we've talked about today in this little session, I want you to set boundaries here.
I'll give you some feedback and then we'll flip.
You'll be me.
I'll be you.
I'll try my best and see what I can do too.
Okay, great.
Great, great, great, great.
All right, cool.
Hey, Minson, thanks for taking this meeting.
So really exciting stuff.
I know you've been working on this AI project, which is great.
It's going really well.
There are a couple of things that I'd like to discuss with you.
First, I want to make a course to go along with the AI project, teaching people how to use the tool effectively.
I think that could give us a strategic advantage in the marketplace.
And then we have this Audible course that's coming out in January that you helped us with on how to listen effectively.
I think we would be really missing out on an opportunity to turn some of the material from that course into a book as well.
So at the end of Q1, my goal would be to have you kind of take the lead on creating this course for the AI project and doing additional research for the book on how to listen effectively as a negotiator.
I wanted to touch base with you to see how you're feeling about taking on a little bit more work.
Awesome.
Kwame, I'm just curious, because I know Q1 plays into a big, larger picture.
So what's the end vision for all of this?
Let's talk about it from a more principled perspective because again, with our goal, we want to help as many people as possible with this content.
And so my goal would be to try to increase our digital footprint.
I think a lot of people could benefit from using the AI project.
I'm taking advantage of that tool once it's done.
And then also, I think a lot of people would benefit from reading a book on how to listen effectively.
But from a negotiator's perspective, I think if we were to create those two things, get those things out, we'd be able to reach more people and but also teach people effectively, while at the same time which is the second point create more engagement, scalable products as well.
Because right now I'm doing a lot of travel.
I want to focus a bit more on the media side of the company, which is the podcast and YouTube and things like that.
So we can create more money that doesn't actively require me to get on a plane, do a training and then things like that.
So, holding on to that last point, you want things that would use your time in the most efficient manner to get the most output for the company.
Yep.
That's right.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Yes.
Hmm, what do you say that?
Because I'm going to sound like an employee that's trying to avoid responsibility.
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I mean, I guess that depends on how you frame this.
Right now.
You already assigned me to like working on the actual development of our ai, and that's taken up half of the hours i'm assigned every single week, and also i'm tackling responsibilities from our chief operating officer in the sales process, which is taking up the other half of the hours.
So it's going to be really, really hard for me to fit this in right now.
So if we can find a way for me to balance everything and to accomplish our end vision, as you mentioned earlier, then I'd be happy to discuss that.
Oh, pause for a second.
Man, this is great.
That was really, really good.
So I was taking some notes.
So this is what I saw.
So first, you started off before responding, you clarified using the empathy loop.
So it's a three step listening process.
First you heard what I said, then you paused and you said all right, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like this is what it is that you're working on.
So you gave a good summary.
You did not advance until I said, yeah, you got that right.
So that was a really great way to empathize, to start things off, to make sure that we're clarified.
It also serves as a bit of a timeout, because I hit you with something.
Gives you some time to think through it and prepare.
So you slow down the conversation in that way, which was great.
Then you got curious, which I thought was fantastic, obviously.
But I like the fact that you actually said, hey, I want to get curious.
That has a kind of a magical softening effect too.
It's not just going into like straight asking a question, almost like a cross-examination.
You eased into it nicely with that preamble saying I want to get curious for a second and ask some questions.
So you turned it into a traditional negotiation, by gathering information to figuring out what my interests were and then honing in on the interest of The fact that I want to digitize products to make a little bit more of an efficient use of time.
I saw the classic Chris Voss.
I forget the term he uses for it, but you're not going to want to hear this.
I think that worked well in this context, because it did make me lean in and say hey, what do you mean?
It's almost like rushing to your defense.
Like, oh, Vincent, why?
Don't worry, it's okay.
I thought that was great.
And then the way that you used the positive no framework from Yuri that you just learned was super smooth.
Like I didn't even realize that it was the framework until it got all the way through, because you said well, right now, 50 of my time is already doing the AI project.
50 of my time is with Steph doing sales and ops which, by the way, I did not know, which is actually really good context for me.
So you never want to assume that the other person knows what it is that you're working on.
I'm the CEO and I still don't know everything that everybody's working on, right?
So that was great.
Yeah, no, I didn't make that up.
I really didn't know.
Oh, you did make that up.
Yeah, I know.
I made that up.
It was so good because I know Steph's working on that.
So really good job.
Really good job with the acting.
But just in general is a good way because you showed your commitment.
Hey, I'm already doing this and it's already taking up all my time.
So I can't add something to the plate.
But let's keep on talking to see how else I could support, because I didn't feel like you were rejecting me.
I felt like you were saying no to what I was suggesting.
And, at the same time, recognizing that I had a legitimate need and offering to be a support in other ways, continuing the relationship and the negotiation.
So, man, you crushed that.
Oh, thank you.
I have some reflecting thoughts for myself as well.
Yes, please share.
Yeah, one thing that I realized toward the end that I'm like, oh, I should have mentioned this.
I didn't, was that how important the project is to me as well.
Like that's really really important to me as well, and that's just i know.
It's just like a common ground thing.
It's not applicable in every situation, but the fact that we're in the same company and that's like my role is to support the company, what you mentioned is 100 important to me.
Like i want to get this done so, instead of saying let's discuss something else, it would be like so how else can we approach this?
Yeah,
Oh, I think that would have been a good addition.
And so two points on that.
First, even though you didn't say that and it would have made the simulation better, you didn't need to perform perfectly to get an acceptable outcome.
And I think a lot of times.
This is one of the reasons I like to do these sparring sessions without any prep, because after we debrief, we can show people you don't need to perform perfectly to get the outcome that you want.
You're never going to say exactly what you wanted to.
And you're always going to have those what I call shower comebacks where, after the conversation's done, you're in the shower.
You're like man.
I should have said that thing.
I still have that too.
But as long as you follow the principles and you stick to it, even if you don't perform perfectly or articulate it perfectly, it's still going to work.
The reason I like that as an approach too, is because this is one of the fundamental tendons of trust building too.
We're on the same team working toward the same goal.
And whenever you have the opportunity to articulate that, I suggest that you do, even when you think that it's obvious.
Because when people get really emotional, sometimes it turns into this us versus them mentality.
And that tribal mentality makes it harder for people to empathize connect listen, understand or even work through things in a collaborative way.
So you always want to make sure that you're hitting that narrative, just letting people know hey listen, I'm on your team.
I understand you want X Y Z and I also want X Y Z.
Let's figure out how we can work together to accomplish that in a way that doesn't cause any other unintended consequences.
Right.
We're not doing a fake simulation right now.
And it's something that's actually somewhat applicable, although you're really good at giving out tasks.
So I never had to reject any responsibilities, but.
It's like that authenticity is projecting through as well.
Or at least I try to be as authentic as possible in that simulation.
It didn't feel like I was saying, I can't do this because of blah, blah, some reason I made up.
I was thinking about it.
I was like, okay, in this situation, like, who am I?
What am I doing?
I'm like, no, I'm dedicated to this.
And then, like I'm trying to not even make you feel, I'm just trying to let you see my situation as it is.
It's like I literally cannot move.
I'm stuck here and it's not emotions or an ulterior motive.
It's being closed in two walls that are physically there.
Exactly.
No, i think that again speaks to that power of authenticity, because i think a lot of times people struggle because they're trying to find some really cool way to say something they don't really truly believe.
So it becomes much harder to access those things because it's contrived, it's what you truly believe and it's actually the scenario.
You don't need to try to think about that fabrication that you came up with five minutes ago.
It comes up organically because it is what it is and i think in this scenario yeah, we have situation where it's bandwidth hard stop, can't do more.
And I think a lot of times people might feel hesitant to use a technique like this when there isn't a clear, hard boundary, where it's mainly an issue of preference.
And if it's an issue of preference, you might not have enough power to establish your preference.
So i think, when it comes to preference, sometimes somebody just might have more power within an organization to say okay, i understand you don't want to do this, but sometimes, as part of a team, you have to do this.
I'll reference an episode where dave stahowiak, the host of the coaching for leaders podcast, came on and he said yeah, at some point you get to a point within a relationship or a power dynamic where you don't have any more influence or authority and you've done your best, trying to influence without authority.
But Sometimes, even though you try your best, you still might end up having to do something that you don't want to do.
But I think, when it comes to setting these boundaries, I would encourage people to still lean into the authentic realization that sometimes not feeling comfortable doing something or not wanting something to be done a certain way, or personal preference is a good enough reason to set a boundary.
And I'll be honest with those people on those types. things.
So sometimes somebody might want me to do an element of a project that I don't really want to do or feel comfortable doing.
I'll just say hey listen, as far as the way that I prefer to spend my time, I like to do these things.
And what you suggested, I recognize how it would really be helpful for you.
And I want to be completely transparent with you.
That's just not something that I feel comfortable doing or I enjoy doing.
So if that's something that you need, I respect that.
And I can put you in contact with another person who can do that for you.
But if you're willing to be a little bit more flexible, we can do those things.
And I think, again, just being honest with that is better than the alternative.
Awesome.
I'm excited to see you negotiate this, Kwame.
But before we do, speaking of the power of authenticity and somewhat related to vulnerability as well, Miss Brene Brown, we would love you on the Negotiate Anything podcast, if you're listening.
Okay.
That would be a lot of fun because I think, especially in difficult conversations, people don't fully understand what vulnerability means.
Like it can be really scary if done the wrong way.
So there's a lot to explore there.
But yeah, man, let's run through the simulation.
You can be me.
I can be you.
I think you did a really good job already.
We'll add a couple more wrinkles and then we'll wrap up because I know Steph wants to chat.
All right.
So Kwame, how have you been?
I've been good.
I've been good.
I got into this entrepreneurial program here at my university.
So thank you for that letter of recommendation.
Things have been good.
I'm happy to give you the recommendation.
I mean, I was on vacation, but it was you.
So I had to go in and type that.
I really, really enjoyed it.
I'm glad you got in the program.
Thank you.
So, yeah.
What do you want to talk about, boss?
So I know you're working on the AI right now.
And actually, I know you have school for a few more semesters until you're out.
What I like to do is I like to give you the option.
This is a big, big commitment or investment for AI.
If you would want to do this is right now.
We are trying to expand our AI to different countries.
Instead of making it the American Negotiation Institute, we want to make it the Global Negotiation Institute.
And the only way we can do that is if we partner with certain firms that steph has filtered out, that are different countries around the world north america, europe and asia.
The thing is, these firms, because of the differences, because of their preferences, we just can't do zoom.
So what i like to do is i'd like to propose you a project that will transition to your full-time position as well, or actually be the start of your full-time position, that will pull you out of school right now and We'll fund your trip to different countries in Europe and Asia.
It'll be a few months long, and then you'll take a break, and then it'll be another few months long and then you'll take a break to negotiate deals.
And we'll send some more people on the team, including the COO.
I'll go to some of them.
And yeah.
So what do you think wow?
Well, first of all, i think that sounds really exciting.
It sounds like it's a really cool expansion of ani and i like the global contact.
But before i respond, i just want to make sure i have everything right.
So it sounds like the idea is to move the regional branding focus to something that's more international, because we do have large international following.
So starting different or collaborating with different institutes in different parts of the world in order to create partnerships that will allow us to get a footprint established in these different locations.
Is that a fair synopsis?
Yeah, yeah.
100%.
100%.
Yeah.
Well, again, it sounds really exciting.
And I can tell that you definitely put a lot of thought into it.
I know how you're always trying to think strategically about the advancements.
My concern right now is about bandwidth.
And so, before I respond, I want to get a little bit more clarity on what your vision is for me within this expansion.
So yeah, I mean, you are the person that has done the most research on AI and we want AI to be the forefront of our new negotiation approach.
So having you at the negotiation table and these different places with these different companies really be of help, even if you're not the main one negotiating.
And if the negotiators need, if the other side needs any type of information or our side needs any type of clarification, you would be the person.
Okay.
That sounds great.
And okay.
Now, as far as time commitment.
It sounds like you're expecting me to physically leave this location and actually go there.
And about how long do you think this would take?
So three months for the first dozen of deals, then probably a month break and then three more months for another dozen deals.
We don't know for sure, though, again, this will be probably the start of your full-time position.
So it would be time consuming.
I can't even avoid that.
It's going to be time consuming, though it's also going to be fun.
And we're going to pay for your plane tickets and everything.
That sounds great.
I love traveling.
And now here's the thing, Minson, and I want to be completely transparent with you here.
Right now, I'm in my third year.
I'm in this entrepreneurial program, made a commitment to my family that I was going to see this through.
Get done and get done on schedule.
So unfortunately, right now, based on the way that you described it, that's a commitment that I can't make because it would interfere with my studies and push me too far back.
But I will say though, I want to find some way to be involved in this, even though I am in school, in a way that allows me to still continue with my studies and support.
Considering that, what changes do you think we could make to this opportunity that could allow us to accomplish both?
I thought about this for a long time.
It's just why can't you leave?
Yeah, I mean, this isn't the point of the program to help you have a successful job, a successful career.
If you start off your career traveling the world and negotiating deals, there's no better alternative that a school or university can give you.
I think that's a really good point.
And before I answer the question Vincent, I can tell you tell me if I'm off on this I can tell that my response is a little bit disappointing and probably a little bit surprising too.
Am I close on that?
Yes.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And again, I apologize because I don't want to disappoint you in this way.
The problem is I also don't want to disappoint my parents who I made that commitment to as well.
So I want to be clear.
I'm very grateful for this opportunity.
I definitely see that this would be beneficial to my career.
It would really be a strong start.
The problem is that, as it is currently configured, it would require me to leave school, which would push me back.
If there's a way for us to kind of get around that, I think we might be able to work something out.
But I can't make a decision that would push me back beyond schedule for my university studies.
Okay.
I guess I have to find some way that changes on my part.
I don't know right now.
I can't really force you to do this or anything.
I'll update you how it goes.
Perfect.
All right.
And let's pause.
Okay.
Even though it was similar, it was very different.
Let me let you have the first shot at the debrief and then I'll debrief.
And then let me get back to Steph because I know I'm late for meeting with her too.
Yeah, I know.
First of all, I'm glad I didn't take your name because I would have made you a terrible negotiator.
That's true.
I was going to try to play the role of somebody who gave something really big that was like in their head.
They're like, there's no way he would reject this.
The things I observed is that at the beginning, what I noticed was from the start, I think it was body language or something like you gave off.
I don't know if this was a purpose or not.
You gave off the vibe that you were leaning toward no.
So it was like a cone or something.
So, you know, like how when people talk, you're listening to them talk.
You're like, oh, they're going to say but in like two seconds.
Yeah, that's amazing.
But you didn't say but.
Not even vocabulary, but you said that.
And then you gave the little no thing.
And I was just like, really, really shocked.
And afterward, I was like, what would a typical boss do in this situation?
I'm like, but this situation is, I'm giving you so much.
Like the university can't give you this.
And then you mentioned your family, your commitments.
And inside at the moment, like throughout the entire thing, for the moment you said no, I did feel like really, really discomfort.
And at the end I still felt that like rejection is painful, but I didn't feel I could blame it on you.
It's like if somebody misses a really important meeting and then text that they have COVID, you want to be mad at them but you can't because you know it's out of their control.
Definitely that type of feeling.
And, if anything, I think that one thing that could have made me feel even better at the end it's maybe just personal experience, though for me especially, the cultural difference coming from an asian, semi-traditional asian household family is the most important thing.
There's politics, everything work, everything is secondary to family.
So if you mentioned something about your mother or your father explain or like describe more about what you committed to them, i think i would have felt not only that you couldn't do it, but i would have felt moved as well.
I would have felt like really, really encouraged to do something else for you.
Yeah, Kwame.
I love that.
Let's start off with that last point too, because essentially I mean let's go back to Aristotle and the persuasive triad, like ancient Greek style.
We have logos, ethos, pathos, too.
You're talking about the passion, the pathos side of it too, because I had the logos, the logic, the ethos, like the credibility that doesn't really apply apply in this situation, but I went really hard on the logic.
I really could have gone a lot harder on the passion too, to just say hey listen, I don't want to disappoint my parents.
They worked hard to get me here.
They kind of paint that clearer picture.
I think that would have been strong.
That's a good call out too.
I noticed one of the things was There was a lot of silence on your end, thinking through it.
And I want to be clear for everybody who's listening to, I still have that desire to jump in.
Silence isn't really comfortable.
You can become more comfortable in silence, but it's hard to get to that point of perfect level of comfort.
So I still wanted to jump in, but I recognize no restraint, discipline, let him process.
He's processing right now.
So I'm not going to jump in, even though there's an awkward silence.
I'm going to let that marinate for a little bit.
Another thing you said that i thought was a great analysis here you felt discomfort knowing that the no was coming.
You felt discomfort when you received the no, but then, with the way that i approached it, you said you still felt discomfort, but you didn't blame me for it.
Yeah, i thought that was really well articulated and that's the thing.
A lot of times people allow the emotions or the fear of the emotional response of somebody else have a negative impact on them, but you're not responsible for their emotional response.
You're responsible for approaching this conversation in the most respectable way possible to minimize the likelihood of a negative emotional response, while accepting that you cannot control their emotional response.
So I could see that discomfort and I knew I did the best that I could to try to minimize that.
And even though I recognize that discomfort, I didn't let that emotional or psychological pull.
Let me jump in and try to alleviate your discomfort by giving in to what it is that you wanted.
Just a simple negotiation rule.
We do not trade emotion for substance.
So I'm not going to make a concession because you feel bad.
That's not a good move, right?
So you can see that there was one point where I used mirroring, saying what you said, repeating what you said, but with an upward intonation to get you to explain more.
After I dropped the framework of the no sandwich yes no, yes.
Then it was more, just flowing back with compassionate curiosity.
So, if you're new to the program, Compassionate Curiosity Framework, that's our approach to dealing with difficult conversations.
Step one, acknowledge and validate emotions.
Step two, get curious with compassion.
Step three, joint problem solving.
And when somebody responds to me with emotion, even though they might respond with substance, I ignore the substance and address the emotion alone.
So when you came back in me saying, well, I don't understand why you would say no to this.
It's such a great opportunity.
What holding you back?
Why would you do this?
I sensed emotion there.
I ignored the question.
And I just addressed the emotion.
So I acknowledged and validated the emotion.
And I said hey Minson, before I respond directly to you.
It sounds like you're a little bit disappointed with my response.
Is that a... Am I close on that?
And then you explained yeah, I'm disappointed, gave you that opportunity to vent.
And then gave you that emotional payment saying because you're like this is such a great opportunity.
I wanted to say...
Yeah, this is a great opportunity.
And I do appreciate this because you're right.
This would put me in a good position.
So I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying.
And I also made a commitment and I need to stand firm to that commitment.
So I want to be part of this, but I can't break that commitment.
So you can see how you sequence that.
You address that emotion part first before being kind of drawn into an emotional back and forth.
Why wouldn't you do this?
I'm saying no, because I need to do this, but why blah, blah, blah.
And then it turns into a like an emotional back and forth, where you are asking a question driven by emotion.
And I am responding driven by substance and logic.
And those two things just aren't meeting.
So I'm going to meet you at the emotional part, lower that before I move on to substance again.
This is awesome.
This is great.
Cool, cool, cool.
So when Steph is like, why didn't you join the call?
I can tell you're upset.
I'll have to hit her with some compassionate curiosity too.
But cool, man.
I think this was a strong first start to our published coaching sessions.
For those who are listening, we'd love to get your feedback.
Let us know what you think.
If you liked it and you haven't left a review yet, leave us with a five-star review.
We really appreciate that.
Minson, any parting words before we wrap?
There is one thing is that even if you do master the ability to say no, say yes sometimes as well yeah absolutely absolutely listeners make sure to give minson a follow we'll tag his uh socials in the description and with that we'll catch you in the next episode have a good one see y'all you've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge so you can keep expanding your skills let's dive in Eliana, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
Yeah, we are excited to have you.
So happy to get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Sure.
So my name is Eliana.
I am a career coach and I primarily work with the millennial Gen Z generation, those who are predominantly in the workforce right now.
And my goal is really helping people get to the next level in their careers through learning the strategy, setting the goals, developing the mindsets to be able to do that.
And a lot of my focus is really in career pivots and transitions.
It's those who have been working mid-career.
They're getting to that breaking point.
They're realizing they're not on the right path anymore and they're wanting to make a change, but not really quite sure what that change should be.
And grappling with a lot of the questions of if I make this change, am I going to have to start all over?
Am I going to have to take a major pay cut?
Do I have to go back to school?
And really figuring all of that out.
And my goal is to help them realize that, no, you don't need to start from scratch.
You don't need to take that major pay cut.
You can leverage the skills you have to find the right career and build one that you feel aligned with and that you feel excited about.
So that's really my goal as a coach and what I look to help people achieve.
I love it.
And also my humble friend, make sure you shout out your course as well.
Yes.
So, going along with that, I have a course called The Career Upgrade, which is all about upgrading your career and really teaching you the four-step process that I teach my clients to be able to make that change, find that new career and then also execute on it.
What steps you need to actually take to successfully make it happen.
Get that offer up and land where you want to be.
Love it.
And everybody.
We are going to have links to all of these goodies in the description of this episode.
So make sure you check that out.
And, as you know, when we have our guests on, they do a lot of preparation beforehand and I always try to mix it up when they get on the call.
So Eliana, see you with option B.
And so Eliana, the whole conversation that we had before the interview started.
When it comes to human interaction and negotiation in general, what is giving you the most energy right now?
So I was sharing before we started recording that.
Ironically, I am now getting energy because I was having a very big lack of energy.
And that was because I noticed and I just talked about this on Instagram stories this morning, so this could not be more authentic that I had told myself going into the summer you know, I was going to set clear boundaries for myself.
I was going to start saying no.
I was going to really give myself time and energy to recoup after what has been a really busy beginning of the year.
And I noticed that I was not doing that.
And I was saying, yes, like friend calling me, hey, can you talk about this?
Can you talk about that?
And I feel like whenever you're in a service industry, people are always kind of hitting you up for things.
And I've just been saying yes, because that's my nature.
I set a very clear intention this morning that I'm going to be firm with my boundaries that I had said I was going to hold.
Have hard conversations, which is what I know this podcast is all about, which means saying no sometimes.
And really sticking to what I had set out for myself and show up less on social media, say no, spend time with my family and really enjoy my summer.
So that is what is giving me energy now, now that I've kind of stated that for myself.
Yeah.
I love it.
And the reason I wanted to do this selfishly is because I'm going through the same thing, Eliana.
I think a lot of us are.
So we could have a two second podcast and say, all right, great.
So say no more often and set those boundaries.
Peace out.
But as we all know, it's easier said than done.
And when I think about what you said in the introduction.
You said you want to help people build a career that they're excited about.
And you described you're building your own career with your own company.
And yet you were still running into this problem of boundary setting.
So it shows us that it's not just simply saying, oh, my job is encroaching on my lifestyle.
So I need to push back on the job because of your situation, you would be pushing back on yourself.
And I think a lot of us, we don't recognize that internal battle.
So let's talk about the challenge.
What makes it so hard to set these boundaries?
For me and I know a lot of people can resonate with it it's the fear of letting other people down, especially when you're in a service-based business.
But I'm sure, even when you're working for a big company, you have your managers, you have your coworkers, and it's the fear that I'm going to say no and someone's going to be disappointed in me and I'm not going to do as well as I could or I'm not going to hit that goal or complete that task.
And there's a lot of almost people pleasing that I think is caught up in all of it.
And that's always been something that I've struggled with.
If I can help somebody, then I want to.
So how do I protect myself while also feeling like I'm giving the help that people need?
And I think that's where the challenge is.
It's kind of like those two things coming up against one another.
That's a big struggle.
Absolutely.
And that's the thing.
We feel that tension, but a lot of times we don't actually explicitly articulate that tension because we have this internal battle.
I know what's best for me.
I know what I want to do and what I should do.
But then I also feel this tension from other people where I'm saying okay, but I don't want to disappoint them.
I care about the relationship and it feels like it's a binary choice, me or them.
And we often end up choosing them.
And what's interesting too, Eliana.
I'm not sure if you can relate to this one but, But sometimes we choose them and we make what are sacrifices for ourselves.
But the other people, they don't even realize that they're sacrifices.
And so they don't even recognize the impact this decision is having on us.
And it can almost feel unappreciated because they don't acknowledge the sacrifice.
One hundred percent.
Yeah, I think that.
And then you kind of get resentful towards them, even though you're the person who said yes.
And you're going.
They don't realize what I'm doing for them and I'm going out of my way and my schedule is so busy.
They have no idea.
You're the one who said yes.
They just think that, oh, I asked her a favor.
I asked him a favor and they said yes.
Why is that my responsibility?
Right.
So it's that internal dialogue gets created and we create things that they don't even know are there.
So 100 percent.
Yeah.
Yes.
OK, good, good, good.
I'm glad I'm not the only person.
Definitely not.
You and everyone.
Great.
Well yeah, let's get deeper into this, because right now you this morning, perfectly serendipitously made this public commitment.
So in your mind, what challenges did you have to overcome to get to this point where you were willing to make this change?
Well, I was starting to feel burnt out.
And like we're in July, I think a lot of people feel this way going into the summer where you think you wanna take some time and relax and recuperate.
And, like I said, I had a really busy beginning of the year and I had set this intention and I wasn't following through.
And I was starting to just, feelings inside of me.
I was feeling burnt out and I was starting to feel anxious.
And I was almost feeling like, also for my clients that I work with, that I wasn't showing up as in as present of a way as I could, as powerfully as I could, because I was feeling so drained.
So it's like sometimes you got to cut certain connections or set those boundaries to show up more powerfully for those other people in your life.
I like to share on Instagram stories because I feel like that's accountability.
I'm like, if I'm going to put it out there to all those people, I really got to stay true to it.
So that was, I did it this morning.
And, like you said, very serendipitous that now we're talking about this and that you asked me that question at the very beginning.
Absolutely.
This is great.
It's really helpful because essentially what you've done is you've validated your own emotion.
And a lot of times as busy professionals, we spend a lot of times invalidating our emotions.
I feel busy.
That's a good thing.
That's how I should be feeling.
Oh, I have a family.
I'm a mother.
I'm a father.
I'm working in this company, whatever it is.
This is how it's supposed to feel.
So you follow that feeling and you recognize, hey, I have an option here.
I have a choice.
And what you recognize is it's not the choice that we thought it was, where it's like me versus them.
It can be a both, and we could be a bit more flexible.
But we change in life when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.
And we have to honor that in ourselves.
Yeah.
And I love that you said that too, because that sentence just resonates so deeply with my coaching practice and this notion that we're taught things right.
The notion I talk about Sunday scaries all the time.
We're always taught Oh, it's your job.
You're not really supposed to like it.
You go there for the paycheck and we're fed these beliefs and we hold onto these beliefs, which is why such a high percentage of the workforce is miserable right now because we believe it's normal to not like your job.
And it's normal to feel really anxious going into the week.
But sometimes doing that like you, exactly like you said, when you say the pain of staying is outweighing or the pain of labor, maybe it's the opposite.
No, it's cool.
Yeah, we can clean it up to the pain of staying the same is greater.
That I wrote it down to because I'm like well, you always mess this up.
So the pain of staying the same is worse than the pain of changing.
Right.
I hope I got it there.
And that's really what it's about.
You know, like you reach a point in your career where you realize, like, I can't.
I cannot do this to myself anymore.
I can't imagine another six months of this, let alone another five, 10 years.
And when you feel that inside yourself, when you feel that internal battle, that is a clear sign.
It is time to look for something new and that it's not normal to allow yourself to keep saying that way and to keep feeling that way.
So I'm so glad that you said that.
Absolutely.
This is great.
So now the listeners can understand all right.
When I'm feeling like this, I don't just need to sit there and take it.
I can make the change and I can do something about it.
I can advocate for myself and set those boundaries.
And now let's put your coaching hat on Eliana.
So let's say somebody is coming to you and they're saying, I'm struggling with setting boundaries.
How do I set effective boundaries?
Well, I think it first comes down to awareness, right?
I think a lot of the times the problem is that people say I want to set boundaries, but they don't know what those boundaries should be.
Because it's a buzzword, right?
Boundaries.
And sometimes even when I say it, I feel very cliche.
But you have to get clear on what are your non-negotiables.
Like what is okay for you?
What is not okay for you?
Understand what those boundaries are.
And then understand I'm a very much a See what you can do, how you can fix it on your own, what the solution is, and then bring those solutions to your manager, to your coworker, to your partner, whatever it is right.
Come up with an idea of this is what I want my boundaries to be.
How do I think these boundaries could be addressed?
Now I'm being proactive.
I'm problem solving.
And now, when I come and present this situation to whomever it may be, I'm not simply just venting and saying oh, I'm having an issue.
This is the boundary I need for myself.
I'm so stressed.
I'm coming from that problem solving perspective.
This is what I'm struggling with.
This is really the boundary that I would like to set for myself.
And here's how I propose that we can really input and create this boundary here.
And you're coming together to really like that conflict resolution together and being able to work on it.
So that's really the first key.
Yeah.
This is critical because starting with the awareness is really important, because a lot of times we might feel the feeling and we recognize something needs to change.
And then we go into these conversations and we're completely disorganized and we're just emoting in front of the other person and they don't even know what to do.
And so, starting with that awareness not just of the fact that something's off, but more specifically what we need to do to get back on track,
Yeah.
Again, like I said, this is something that I'm working on with myself because I run the American Negotiation Institute.
We have a growing team and we're trying to do new things all the time, but I still have a family and I want to be present with them.
So I had to be really clear and say, all right, this is how much time.
I want to spend with my family before work and after work and what I want the weekends to look like.
I need to communicate that with my team so they know where they can and cannot go.
And so now I can say with myself Kwame, you can be as ambitious as you want within these time parameters.
And then I can communicate that clearly to the other side.
And so this just goes into the art of preparation before all of these difficult conversations.
It's that internal work first, figuring out, all right, something's off.
What do I need?
And with specificity, and then you can come to the conversation with clear solutions on what you need and why you need it.
Exactly, exactly.
And I love that too, because it's also, that's such effective leadership right there too.
And you're setting that example for your team and saying, hey-
I'm setting these boundaries for myself.
And that also gives your team permission to set boundaries as well.
Like now you're a ship all moving together.
So I love when people who are the boss, who are in that leadership position, can really exemplify those things for others.
So that's wonderful.
Definitely.
I think that's really important to pay attention to as well, because we are leaders in different ways, because people might be leaders because they are at the top of the company.
They might also be leaders because other humans see you doing things.
And I think it's so important for us, just even as parents as well, to show our kids that it's OK to set boundaries, so they don't just see us working ourselves half to death over the course of our careers.
But then also people on our teams.
They're going to be watching and they're going to say hey, Eliana just set that boundary.
And now she is much happier and her work product hasn't diminished and our relationship hasn't gone off the rails.
OK, maybe I can do the same thing, too.
Yeah.
Lead by example.
I love it.
Yes.
OK.
Now, something that people often say is I'm afraid of setting boundaries because I don't want to hurt people's feelings.
And so how do we help people overcome that element?
I think that's the hardest part.
And that's the part that to this day, I still struggle with.
And we were touching on this a little bit before.
But I think what often happens is that we burn ourselves out and then we're not doing ourselves any favors, but we're also not doing others favors.
And I think that if we can share that in a respectful way, it can be really helpful.
And we say, if a friend approaches us or a coworker approaches whoever it is and asks us for their health or something, whatever the situation is being able to share like hey, I'm so glad you came to me for this.
And you know, I care about you and I want to be there for you.
I'm at a point right now where I'm feeling stretched very thin.
And I feel like if I say yes, I can't give you the best version of myself.
Right.
So let's take a few days, or let's revisit this in a few weeks, where I know I can give you my full attention and really help you work through this issue or give you the support that you need.
So you're letting them know you care about them.
And this isn't like a no.
Right.
If someone comes to you and asks for help and you want to set a boundary, you don't go.
No no, I'm overwhelmed.
I can't do this right now.
Like you're bothering me, which I think sometimes people do to a degree.
So it's letting them know where you're at.
And also letting them know that at the same time, like we can revisit this.
I'm not just ignoring you.
I'm not recognizing that you have a need that needs to be met or you have something that you need help with.
Like I see that.
I see you.
I hear you.
I just can't do it right now because of X Y Z, But check back with me in a few weeks and we'll recircle on this.
And I think that can make you feel better while also not hurting their feelings at the same time.
This is brilliant.
And I love the fact that you gave the example of just essentially no go away.
And I think a lot of times people can get to that point after they've spent an extended period of time people pleasing silently suffering, and then they just blow up.
So a lot of times nice people can seem so mean from time to time because they fall victim to the people pleasing pressure.
I'm going to give in, give in, give in.
And then one day you're like, Like I'm not taking this anymore.
And the whole world looks at you like, what have you been taking?
I was completely unaware.
So that's really important.
Like what's going on?
Wow.
Yeah.
And so that's important to keep in mind too.
And then you're saying really is.
You're starting off the conversation by reaffirming the relationship.
Hey, I care about you and I recognize that you have this need and you're asking for this from me for X Y, Z reason.
I understand that.
And so my goal to you is to always be a good friend, a good family member, a good colleague, a good leader.
And I recognize I can't be that for you because right now I'm not in a good place.
And people would really respect that, because what ends up happening is that a lot of times, we say hey, I want to keep on saying yes to these things because I don't want to let people down and I want to be a high performer.
But then what ends up happening is we take on so many things that we end up being letting people down and being a low performer.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Counterintuitive.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And so setting that boundary can actually improve relationships, improve performance and productivity.
So if we just take the time and share that with the other person to let them know that we care and we're rejecting their request, but not rejecting them as a person, then we could actually advance the relationship while setting boundaries effective.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I love the way you said that.
Yeah.
Rejecting the request, but not rejecting them as a person.
That is very key.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is good.
Let's wrap up with some big mistakes that people often make in these situations.
So people are bought in.
Okay, great.
I'm going to reaffirm the relationship.
I'm going to set these boundaries as they're starting to go on this journey of assertiveness and self-advocacy.
What are some mistakes that you've seen people make?
I think what happens is this is with every negotiation conversation.
I see my clients do this all the time.
You share what it is that you need or you ask for what it is that you need.
And then immediately, maybe there's a moment of silence or they don't immediately respond in the way that you were hoping they would.
And then you just retract on everything.
Well, no, no, no, it's fine.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Like, well, we can do this, right?
It's like in the negotiation conversations.
How many times my clients have said to me well, they didn't respond right away.
So I told them I just accept the offer as is.
And I'm like, no, no, no.
Silence is golden.
Sit in the silence, sit in the discomfort and lean into it, right?
Don't immediately retract because you thought that they were going to say no or they were thinking something terrible about you.
So it's like, Sticking true to your boundaries, even in like the boundary conversation to a degree.
And when you share it with them, regardless of how they respond, whether they're understanding or they're not understanding stay true to what it is that you want and know that there's still going to be resolution on the other side.
I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that people make.
And kind of same idea when there's maybe objections.
So, rather than silence, or they don't respond right away, but when there's a direct objection to what it is that you have to say, then again going back to oh well no, it's fine.
Yeah, I guess I can squeeze this in.
If they're going to object well, you can object back in a respectful way and share.
Look, I hear you and I understand why you're saying this to me, but I really have to stay true to this because and you know, confirm and say again what it is that you had been saying previously.
Like you have to stay to your original intentions.
And I think that makes all the difference often.
I love all of this.
It's so important because a lot of times we give up so soon.
And the problem is not that the negotiation strategies and tactics and principles don't work.
It's that we don't hold true to it long enough.
So, for example, somebody might do the right thing.
They'll say, Eliana, got it.
All right.
So I'm going to advocate for myself.
I'm going to do this research and do a little bit of introspection.
I'm going to be ready.
I want to know exactly what I'm going to ask for and why.
And then we go into the conversation and we're saying, hey, this is what I'm looking for.
And the person sits back and thinks for seven seconds.
You're like, I give up.
So you were able to maintain form for 13 seconds of the conversation.
That's not good enough.
So a lot of times it's not a question of whether or not the tactics or strategies or your approach to conversations is effective.
It's about whether or not you have the discipline, strength and confidence to utilize it long enough for it to work.
And when we feel that silence, then we give up and we fill in the gap with information.
They might have just been thinking to themselves, oh, you know what?
That's a good point you brought up.
Let me figure out how I could make that work.
And then you just jump in and let them off the hook.
And then with the other side too, when we're thinking about, as the conversation progresses, how they're going to be objections.
They're going to be people who are resisting a little bit, or they just have some questions.
Again, a lot of times people say the negotiation doesn't begin until somebody says no.
Very true.
And so we retreat too soon.
Concession and adjustment, those are things that are necessary.
But if you have a shallow bag of tools and tactics to resort to or you don't have much confidence, then you're going to resort to concession much too quickly.
Exactly, exactly.
And that's why you have to do the preparation beforehand, for whether it's like a big job offer negotiation or whether it's just a conversation again with your partner.
I mean, I'm not saying you have to be doing all this research before you go to talk to your partner, but conversations you have to be conscientious.
You have to be strategic and thoughtful about them.
So it always requires a little bit of prep work ahead of time and anticipating what might happen so that you can be ready and in a position to be able to handle that situation, whatever it might be.
Yeah.
Love it.
Oh, this is so good.
So good.
And so now I think listeners who are saying to themselves you know what?
I have a career transition coming up.
I might want to hire a coach and they're looking for a coach.
Eliana, could you give them some suggestions as who they should reach out to?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, obviously I'm here for you, and there's a lot of other amazing career coaches out there as well.
And what I would say too, just to anybody thinking about a transition.
There's so many myths and beliefs that I hear all the time.
Really one of the big ones being this notion of a pay cut.
I can't tell you how many people i have spoken to who say well, i really want to make this change and i know i could do it, but i'm gonna have to, i'm gonna have to start over, i'm gonna have to take a massive pay cut.
I can't afford that for my family, i can't afford that for my life, and obviously i get that fear.
But it couldn't be further from the truth, and i have helped people shift from.
I had a client that worked as a manager of an ice cream store.
That's now a digital marketing manager, right.
So like that wasn't a pay cut at all, that was a huge increase.
So, point being that there's so many skills and transferable qualities and skills that you have that you can leverage.
And I always tell my clients, it's not the most qualified person who gets the job offer.
It is the best job seeker, the person who is clear on their value, on their abilities, and knows how to translate that effectively and knows how to tell engaging stories to showcase that.
And anyone can learn to do that, right?
Anybody can learn to be a better job seeker.
So Stop worrying so much about your qualifications and think more about how you're presenting yourself.
Do you have the awareness around your skills and your values and your abilities?
And then are you able to communicate that effectively in those type conversations?
I love it.
Eliana, this was a masterclass in assertiveness and boundary setting.
I really appreciate it.
And, before you go, just let the listeners know about where they can get in touch and learn more about what you do.
Yeah, absolutely.
So even though I said I was social media hiatus, you can still connect with me over there.
I will still be posting content.
I can never fully give it up.
And it's just my name, Eliana underscore Goldstein.
That's on both LinkedIn and Instagram, as well as Reels.
I just join threads.
I'm everywhere these days.
So trying to be present in all places while still watching out for those boundaries.
So please connect with me there.
Shoot me a DM.
I always like to chat with people.
Love it.
Eliana, thanks so much.
Really appreciate it.
Of course.
Thank you again for having me.
