You're listening to TED Talks Daily where we bring you new ideas and conversations to spark your curiosity every day.
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TED Intersections is back for a second season.
This original series features unscripted conversations between TED speakers taking on subjects at the intersection of their expertise.
In this conversation, internet filmmaker Baron Ryan sits down with marriage and family therapist, Stephanie R.
Yates -Angebwile to answer the question, how do you learn to love yourself?
They dig into the struggles of people pleasing, why we care so much about what people think of us and how we can resist that sneaky urge to compare ourselves to others.
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I respect my dad's opinion a lot and then so oftentimes I won't call him for advice because I'm scared.
That I'm wrong. That I'm wrong and because I respect it so much that I know there's something inside that says he is right no matter what.
Yeah. But I think the one of the wisest things we can do is not listen to our elders too closely.
There's a great value in discovery in doing the wrong thing and learning for yourself as opposed to learning what the wrong thing is and never trying the wrong thing.
So, the first question I have is, how do you see people -pleasing manifest in your relationship with yourself and others?
I think you could probably answer this question better than I could.
But I think for me, realizing that I have people -pleasing tendencies was a slow evolution, a slow revelation, I realized that I was comparing myself to people that I thought were obvious people pleasers, like my clients even, you know?
But I started realizing that when certain people would ask me for things, even if it was something I was dreading, for weeks beforehand, I wouldn't say no just because I think I was afraid that if a specific person saw me as difficult, then that's true.
So, I think for me, it was very much based on my level of respect or desire for a person to love or appreciate me.
And if they, a person, didn't fall into those categories, I could say no. But if they did, then I had a really hard time with just even saying, this is going to be a challenge for me, but sure I'll do it for you.
And I would almost act as though I was excited about it.
So People Pleasing has shown up for me in multiple ways.
And I think in the last two or three years, it's been a lot more obvious for me.
and something I've been working on a little bit more intentionally addressing.
How about for you? You said people pleasing, you never had it, it's for other people problem.
I am the other people.
Yeah, no, I think I still am a people pleaser and it's very funny that I can admit that because my talk is about people pleasing, but I think you'll see it, there's no solutions.
I think I just see the solution.
I see the light and I don't know how to get to it.
Um, I think we, I especially have this tendency where, once I'm aware of what I'm doing, I think that's it.
Mhm. Oh problem solved, I'm done and that's not it.
Yeah. Um, I see it happening pretty much at like, just everywhere.
Um, I don't know. Just walking, just like the Uber here, the air conditioning was just way too hard. Mhm.
And I just didn't say anything.
Yeah. and he asked, like, is it too cold?
And I said, no. It was too cold.
And I just, I recognized it and I didn't do anything about it.
Yeah, and see, I'm the type of person who, that kind of situation, I would absolutely say something.
Even when we were just sitting in a talk, I saw the lady next to me pull out mints.
I'm like, ooh, can I have some of your mint?
I don't know her, but I didn't have any issue asking for that.
But I have some family members that I'm very close to that kind of thing, they would never do, they would never ask because they're just that cognizant of being an inconvenience or feeling like a burden on someone.
I think, I do believe that there are things that can be done about people pleasing.
I don't think that it's something that is solution -less.
I think the first thing is admitting to ourselves that something is bothering us or could bother us and feeling comfortable to even just communicate that possibility to ourselves.
And as we get more comfortable with admitting, cause sometimes it's like after the fact, you realize like, damn, I was, Can I kiss?
Sure. Okay. It's kind of like, man, I was cold.
And so maybe in a situation with a stranger, no, but maybe you start with your close friends, just saying, I'm dreading this, but I'm willing to do it for you or family.
I mean, there's I guess, the big problem was you never quite feel safe opening up.
Yeah. Because every time you see that's another problem of mine I say you instead of I.
That's okay I get it.
And it's really good for storytelling because people relate and say you and if I said I no one would care.
But I never felt safe expressing and getting out there because I always thought if I do that, bad things will happen because bad things almost always do happen.
But in reality I just didn't know how to stand up for myself when I did open up.
So I was having this discussion with a friend.
And he has people -policing tendencies, I have people -policing tendencies.
And we were saying I think the solution is it's about resilience as opposed to shelling up and never opening up.
It's about opening And if you get hurt, you get back up instead of just never trying or never coming out of your shell.
And I don't know if that's true or not.
I'm workshopping that tactic right now.
But that as far as I can tell, that seems to me to be a bit of a better solution than never opening up.
Definitely, I agree.
I think and it's hard for me to engage in like more surface level conversations because as a therapist I go right to it.
but I do think it's interesting how you said that bad things almost always do happen.
That's an interesting understanding of the world and life.
I think that, to me that means that your people -pleasing is probably a result of some sort of trauma experience.
If bad things always happen, what does that mean?
I could never pinpoint certain moments, but I think I was the youngest child.
And so as the youngest, you're almost always giving in.
And I think you're just trained.
I am just trained to do that, and that training serves you well in adulthood but in very bad ways.
What I hear you say is that basically you people please to avoid the humiliation of hearing no, or asking for what you need.
And a person basically telling you you're not important enough for that accommodation.
Like when we go back to the example of being in Uber if you tell that Uber driver that you're cold and goes oh well I'm hot and keeps it on now it's like I put myself out there I admitted I was cold and he didn't care he didn't make the accommodation um so maybe it's easier to not experience that rejection than it is to take the chance of getting what you want.
Sure. Yeah. It could also be that uh I need to be more anxious as opposed to more depressed.
Oh okay interesting perspective.
Okay because like, I'm always thinking in hindsight, you know, you have an interaction with someone, you're like, oh did I come off it's too strong?
Did I, I could, why didn't I just tell the Uber driver turn the air conditioning off?
But if I was anxious I would look forward and be like, oh I'm gonna be cold, I'm gonna regret this, if I don't turn off the AC I'm like, I got a cold or something.
And so out of anxiety I'll say, hey can you, and so I'll try and beat the disaster.
instead of let the disaster happen and then just look back in depression.
I could see that look.
And I think anxiety works both ways because alternatively you could be thinking, if I tell him about the fact that I'm cold, then this will happen, this will happen.
Anxiety is just looking at every worst case scenario, almost, you know.
So I think even if you were super anxious, it could be the same situation.
So how did the opinions of others impact your relationship with yourself?
The opinions of others can really impact me especially if I care about those people.
And what I've learned is that in order for the criticism and for the negative opinion to not affect me, I have to also forget about the positive opinions and the complementary opinions.
And so I always saw opinions, comments, likes, anything on social media even.
As sugar. You know we know not to take too much sugar.
So I know in my mind not to take too much compliments.
Not to take too much praise.
It's not good for you.
A little bit is fine.
A little bit of sugar is fine.
Don't take too much though because then you'll feel sick the next morning.
You'll get withdrawals, when it doesn't come.
Right? So I guess right back at you.
How does the opinion of others affect, you know, your relationship with yourself?
Yeah. I've always cared way too much what people think.
I actually remember I was writing with my grandma back in 2019 and she always struck me as someone who just, she was a founder of a church, you know, a small church, lots of opinions.
Especially once my grandfather passed away and she was like the head of the And so I was like, grandma, how do you deal with the opinions of so many people?
And she was like, Stephanie, they're just people.
That made no sense to me.
That still makes no sense to me because I was just like, I guess in a way, we kind of put people on this pedestal, which is so interesting because as a human being myself, my opinions are so flawed and they change, but I look at other people's views or opinions of me and give them so much weight and look at them as though they can't change or that they're correct.
And so sometimes I just reflect on that conversation to remind myself like these are just people, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the opinion of people has always mattered a lot to me.
I think we're talking about birth order, I'm the oldest. And I think sometimes with the oldest parents, that's when they put their best foot forward. Like they want to raise the next, you know, top athlete or the next big politician, whatever.
So they put a lot more energy sometimes in that oldest child than they do with the subsequent children.
And so there's this pressure to do very well.
And so I know for me, even as an adult, I still crave that I'm proud of you from my dad, you know?
And he gives it to me, but I hear it more from other people than from him.
And I always, every time somebody's like, Oh my gosh, your dad is so proud of you.
I'm always thinking, Oh, I wish he told me that.
You know? But I know he is.
But I think that's where it started for me is just feeling like you want that parental approval then expands to the authorities of teachers and you know, administration at your school.
Then it's your boss, then it's everybody, you know?
Everybody has an opinion.
And as the older we get, I think the more confident we get that our opinions are right.
And if someone has a negative opinion, especially being in the online space, it is hard to just say, that's one person's opinion.
I love what you said about, you have to give similar weight to the positive opinions, just like you do the negative.
And that's something that I think when you're online for years, you kind of, you come to a point because I'm like it could be the exact same content and all the initial comments are so positive And then one person says something and it takes a turn.
You know, and a lot of people kind of follow the crowd, whether it's positive or negative.
So, you can even look at the numbers of it, really.
But what's hard is that on social media, the comment section is generally not the general consensus of most of your viewers.
I always thought that was a big problem with reviews online of restaurants.
True. Who has the time to pull out their app, sign into the app, and make a review of this restaurant?
Whoever has the time to do that gets angry pretty quick, or is a little bitter about a little too many things.
Maybe the comment section is the same thing?
I think the comment section is a demographic, it's a type of viewer.
It's not your overall audience though.
That's a good point.
Would you say that most of your comments are more negative or more positive?
Oh, they're all - they're mostly all positive, but my theory on that is that whoever has all positive comments, the haters are out there somewhere.
Yeah, they are. They were lurking.
They're waiting for their moment to strike.
And the second you screw up, there'll be a few negative comments and then here they come.
Yeah. And then it happens all at once.
That's how that works I think.
So they're all there.
They're all there waiting - I'm waiting to get cancelled one day.
Yeah. I know it's terrifying but in you was talking about how you're you still look for that good job from your dad Yeah Whose approval feels the best and where do strangers fall into that ranking?
Oh, that's a good question.
I Still think I Still think my dad's at the top.
Yeah, I definitely do My household dynamic was very different, in that my mom, she struggled with a lot of mental health issues.
She experienced so much trauma growing up and it's really miraculous the life she was able to build.
But you know, behind the scenes, you kind of experience that on a closer level, at a closer level.
So my dad was kind of given this, I would say hero role, like you're the parent that's going to save us from, like they were married and everything, but you're the parent that's going to save us from this tyrant or this person whatever was happening in the moment.
It wasn't always like that, but some moments were like that.
We never really ever had that with him.
So I think I view him as stability, security, and with that comes contentment.
So sometimes seeing that moment of pride or knowing I'm working on a project that he really cares about, that means everything to me.
And when things that he cares about, you know, when they fall through, I think I'm more embarrassed about that the world seeing something fail.
Sometimes I wait months before I even tell him about a certain project just because I'm nervous it's not going to pan out, and I'm worried about, he would never say anything mean.
My dad's not like that, but I just don't want him to feel disappointed.
Even though he's not expressing that, I just internalize it in a certain way.
Yeah. I think I respect my dad's opinion a lot and then so often times I won't call him for advice because I'm scared.
That I'm wrong. That I'm wrong and because I respect it so much that I know there's something inside that says he is right no matter what.
Yeah. I think the one of the wisest things we can do is not listen to our elders too closely.
They have things to say but there's a great value in discovery and doing the wrong thing and learning for yourself as opposed to learning what the wrong thing is and never trying the wrong thing.
Yeah, I think a big moment for me was when I was buying my house, and at that point, it was a crazy summer.
Like I got engaged, married, bought a house all in the same summer.
Everybody thought I was pregnant, because it was happening so fast I wasn't pregnant.
I was just ready to be married.
We've been together for six years.
And I think that in in that moment when I was buying my house and I was asking my dad for his feedback on everything and I was just, I needed his approval, like, what do you think about this?
I don't want to make the wrong decision.
It hit me, like, my dad's never bought a house before.
You know, at that point I was living an experience outside of his experience, like, I couldn't go to him as the person that could give me all of the advice.
And he always has opinions, you know, he definitely wanted me to have, he had recommendations for who should do the Maya inspection and everything, but he'd never bought a house before.
We'd lived in a house growing up and my mom bought it before she met him.
And so it was just this moment where I was like, I'm at a point where I'm having experiences that I can't lean on my dad for.
My mom passed away by the way.
So that's why I'm referring to him a lot in adulthood.
But it was just interesting to be in this very, a very surreal position of like, wow, I'm in a stage of life that my dad never was in.
And you know, it's kind of like swimming without a life vest for the first time.
So I agree with you about kind of recognizing just because a person is older doesn't necessarily mean they have all of the answers.
Whew. Fun stuff. I know, we're doing a therapy session for each other.
Okay, this is a long one.
But I'm gonna go for it.
Okay. Okay. You say that relationships are difficult because people base their metric of success on what they see other people do.
Yeah. Is this a form of relationship imposter syndrome?
And how do couples break out of that mold?
Ohh, that's a good question.
Relationship imposter syndrome.
I don't know if I would say it's imposter syndrome only because I think of imposter syndrome as a feeling where we've basically tricked an organization or person into thinking we're one way.
And it's that constant fear of being exposed for not really being that, you know, I call myself a therapist, are you really a therapist?
I call myself an artist, I call myself an actor, you know, and someone kind of tearing that down.
So I don't think of as imposter syndrome because I don't think, I don't know, maybe there are some parallels, but I think basically that we have clear trajectories of how relationships are supposed to develop.
You know, you meet the love of your life, eventually you might move in together.
Maybe you get engaged, you get married, you have kids, you buy a house, you know, whatever the order is.
And I think sometimes we don't stop enough to ask ourselves like, why am I doing this?
You know, like maybe you did find the love of your life, But do you guys need to live together?
If you live together, do you need to share a bed?
Like, do you have to sleep in the same bed with that person every night for the rest of your life?
I think sometimes we just get so stuck and this is just how it's always done.
And if I don't do it this way, maybe that is the imposter syndrome part, because the question is, if I don't do it this way, is my relationship legitimate?
How would people feel if they found out that we don't sleep in the same bed, for example?
Yeah, how should we, like what, what should our metric of relationships be then?
Who should we be comparing ourselves to?
I think the challenge is to try to avoid the comparison because there's so many different models for what a healthy relationship looks like, and even what looked good in your relationship 10 years ago might not look good today.
You know, so I think it's very much about checking in with yourself about what is and working for you and I think this takes us back to the people pleasing part of the conversation because if you're afraid to open up to your partner, which is what I see a lot.
A lot of the work I do with clients is like, you guys have been together 30 years and you're afraid to tell your partner that you don't like X, Y, Z that they do.
And so I think that it's about being honest about where you're at today, what your hopes are today, and seeing how you and your partner can negotiate that.
If I say to my, my husband like, I don't think it's making sense for us to share the same bathroom.
Like we're constantly getting in arguments about the bathroom.
Your hair is everywhere.
My hair is everywhere.
I leave the lids off of everything.
Whatever the case may be.
We've got an extra bathroom.
Why don't we just, you have that one, I have this one.
If you can have that conversation and they're cool with it, why not save yourself from some arguments?
There are a lot of opportunities like that that we miss.
Yeah, I I think I always um, I was always scared about of this part in relationships because The big danger is you get in a relationship with the fantasized version you have in your head Yeah of someone else you projected that onto this person and they're going to inevitably fall from that Imagined reality that you just gave them.
Mm -hmm And so, of course you need a little bit of reality in there You need maybe a little bit of comparison might do you well But, for the most part, maybe it's just about checking in whether or not you are happy, as is.
You know, there's a short story by Lucas Shepard, I think, called The Jaguar Hunter.
And the story begins, and it opens with this tribe in South America, and everyone's happy, everyone's calm, and life is good.
and then someone brings a TV into the tribe, and they hook up the electricity, and suddenly the tribe just goes to pieces because they see what the outside world is like.
They see what it's like to have hot and cold water.
They see what it's like to go to the grocery store and just pick out any fruit you want, no matter what the season is, and suddenly they feel like they can't be happy because they're living in heaven, not us.
Yeah. And, I think with the relationship things, I think that's for the most part, that is what the whole we all go down.
We all put a TV, metaphorically, in our relationship, and we see what it's like.
And we say, why isn't my life like that?
Why aren't we like that?
And in reality, just take a look, maybe just take a look around.
Do you feel good? Are you happy when you make coffee and put dishes in the dishwasher?
And is that a pleasurable thing to do because you like this person?
Maybe that's enough.
And I don't know, it's just a theory.
I totally agree with that.
I think we don't check in with ourselves a lot, especially in the learning -someone phase.
Sometimes, like you said, we ignore things that would make us very unhappy because we are really not even enjoying the fantasy of them, but the fantasy of being in a relationship in general.
And so it's like, hmm, yeah, he's not that romantic, but he's here and I've got someone to take to this wedding and I have someone who might wear my car up in the morning.
But then when we're looking 10 years down the line, you're like, my husband's not romantic.
And I'm like, was he ever?
Right, and most of the time the answer is no. but we develop these hopes for our partner before we ever even commit, before we even communicate to them that these are our needs.
Okay, can I, I'm gonna tell you an idea for a short film I have, and I don't know how it ends.
Maybe you can help me like, no one steal this idea.
This is, I wanna make this short film.
I really do. So we're living in this dystopian world where the state of New York is trying to curb the divorce rate for some reason, but we'll figure out why.
And in order to do so, to get married in the state of New York, a couple has to go take a lie detector test that is 100 % accurate.
Like this thing always gets it right.
They go into these tests, but they ask incredibly intrusive questions.
Incredibly intrusive.
Like, who is more attractive, your partner or your partner's sister, right.
If your partner died, do you have someone in mind that you would turn to first as an alternative?
Like these are like incredibly harsh questions that no one wants to ask.
And I thought the theory of all this is that maybe relationships need a little bit of fantasy just to work, just a little bit.
If there's way too much honesty if we know way too much about each other that we might not be ready for that because we don't quite love ourselves that much. I don't think we love humanity that much, and if you get that raw you're not going to like the other person and I don't think that relationship works.
But I wanted to follow a couple that does this and of course the disaster strikes and it's like I didn't know that's how you felt I don't know that's how you felt and I don't know how it ends I don't know what the message is.
I don't know what any of it is.
Yeah. Where would you go with that if you were the writer of this?
I don't know how you would end that.
I really don't. But I'd love the concept maybe that's the ending is that you let the viewer decide for themselves what happens with this couple.
You wanna play it, you wanna be the therapist, you wanna be the one with the lie detector.
Sure. Just to hook us up.
Sure I've been in short films before.
My husband makes a lot of short films. Oh okay, that's fun.
with you. This is awesome, thank you.
Yeah, this was really fun.
Let's do this again.
I love the dead series pin like I will never do this again.
That was a conversation between Baron Ryan and Stephanie R Yeats Anabwile for our original series, TED intersections.
Visit ted .com to watch this conversation and others from the series.
If you're curious about Ted's curation, find out more at Ted .com slash curation guidelines.
And that's it for today's show.
TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio collective.
This episode was produced and edited by our team, Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, Alejandra Salazar, and Tansika Sarmarnivon.
It was mixed by Christopher Faizi Bogan, additional support from Emma Toppner and Daniella Ballarazzo.
I'm Elice Hu. I'll be back tomorrow with a fresh idea for your feed.
Thanks for listening.
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