There is a special interest that exists.
It's called chloroform interest, where one person might have this fantasy in which they
pretend to chloroform someone, rendering them completely consenting but unconscious so that
they can do a list of predetermined agreed upon acts to said unconscious person.
Both parties are in on it.
One person wants to chloroform another person.
The other person is begging to be chloroformed, which, side note, chloroform is a chemical
that used to be used as an anesthetic for humans during surgeries.
To put it very simply, it's going to knock you out.
There's these little GABA receptors in the brain.
They're like little off switches.
And the chloroform, they reach the GABA receptors and they turn off the neurons, if you will.
Your brain shuts down, leading to this massive slowdown in brain activity.
You've likely seen kidnapping scenes in movies where they soak a rag in chloroform and they
sneak up on someone.
They pull the rag out of their trench coat pocket and then push it up against their face.
You see the victim momentarily freak out before they go completely limp.
They pass out.
They get dragged into a white van.
It actually doesn't really work like that.
Chloroform takes at least a few minutes of breathing in chloroform for someone to be
rendered unconscious.
But from my understanding, it seems that adults with this special intimate interest, they
lean towards fantasies of one person being the kidnapper and one person being the victim.
That's the allure of this, of the anticipation of an event like this, the build up.
When is it going to happen?
How are they going to kidnap me?
How are they going to render me unconscious?
Where will they take me?
When will I come to and wake up?
What am I going to wake up to?
It's like a suspenseful thriller movie that's just playing out in real life.
The desire is less about the actual scenario, but rather about the power dynamics.
The idea that one party can kidnap you at any given moment, they have power over you,
and the experience of the quote, victim being utterly passive and compliant.
Some people go as far to categorize this under a larger fetish umbrella, which is consenting
to adult activities while one party is unconscious or asleep.
But I wouldn't categorize it under that, since it seems like there are a good amount of people
out there that specifically want the chloroform aspect of it.
They want someone to chloroform them, or they want to do it to someone.
It's a completely normal interest, so long as you do not use actual chloroform.
Most people will imagine or play out role play the experience of what it would be like
to be chloroformed minus the actual chloroform.
That's usually how it's practiced.
Anything beyond that is just way too dangerous.
There is a very narrow margin between the dosage required to achieve unconsciousness
and straight up death.
Some people have asked the community, for tips, how do I go even further than role
playing?
I want to start using the real deal.
And nearly every single person scolds them in the comments.
They're asking them, are you insane?
One netizen writes, my partner is a pharmacist and a medication safety specialist.
If there is any safe way to have this interest, he would know.
There is not.
If there is a safe way to knock someone out to the point where you can just tie them up
and do whatever you would like to them whilst they're unconscious without waking them up,
without the risk of accidentally killing them, then anesthesiologists would not have to train
for so long.
Another comment reads, you cannot knock someone unconscious without serious risk of permanent
damage or death.
Another writes, chloroform is dangerous and will most likely kill your partner.
If you're going to pretend to do it, then fair enough, but never ever try and obtain
and use the real thing.
They say, remember the three rules of adult activities, safe, sane, consensual.
This is not safe.
This is not sane.
On top of that, another comment reads, chloroform doesn't really work the way that you see in
movies.
It can take a good 20 minutes for it to finally put someone under and even then, you gotta
hold that shit there during which you can get chemical burns on that person's face that
never go away.
It's permanent damage.
Another comment reads, chloroform is a great thing if you want to leave chemical burns
and don't mind killing a few of your special interest people involved.
The problem being that poisoning the body until it passes out is only a small step away
from poisoning it to the point of killing the body.
Another person just writes, do not use chloroform.
Although it does make people pass out with the right quantity, the line between passing
out and dying is so close.
So let's just say it's not going to be fun if you use actual chloroform and actual chemicals.
One poster writes about how a few years ago, they tried to pass out with chloroform.
It's a long story, but a few years ago, one of their friends had worked in this lab with
mice and they used chloroform as an anesthetic for the mice.
And I guess as a prank or something, he gifts OP a bottle of the chloroform, which he never
requested.
In fact, the original poster of this comment was a little bit upset that he got gifted
this because this is a whole other story.
It's just shady if you have a bottle of chloroform and likely it's a hassle to get rid of it
in a safe way.
I don't think you can just pour it down your drains.
I don't think you can just pour it down the toilet.
You can't just throw it out in the trash.
I'm sure there's a whole method to it.
So what does OP do with this now?
He decides.
Well, I figured if I wanted to experiment, now was the time.
I wanted to see if it was like it was in the movies.
So I gave it a try and found while you could absolutely pass someone out with it, it's
way overdramatized in film.
He tried four times to use chloroform.
He put it on a sock.
He put it on his face.
And the very last time he experimented, he said, you know, I tried it.
I guess I kept the sock a bit too close to my face for a bit too long.
I woke up on the floor in between my computer desk and my speaker cabinet.
I'm not sure how I didn't knock the speaker over, but I got up in this daze wondering,
why was I on the ground like that?
Why was I like that?
I got back on my computer like nothing happened.
About two minutes go by and I realized, holy shit, I knocked myself out.
He proceeds through the rest of the day and fast forward two days.
He had been laying on his bedroom floor for the past 48 hours.
What?
So he knocks out, he gets up and he's like, oh, that was weird.
I was out for a few minutes.
The rest of the day continues like nothing.
And then he doesn't remember the next time he knocks out.
And the second time he knocks out, he's gone for like two, four days.
Oh, he passed out again for two days?
Yes.
How?
He doesn't know.
He just woke up on the bedroom floor.
Two days had gone by.
He said he's sweating like crazy, feeling insanely cold and sicker than he's ever felt.
He said, I was also peeing dark, dark red.
So what do you know?
I have time to do some more research.
I find that the toxic properties of chloroform, they take a long time to leave your system.
They build and build very slowly and they leave slowly.
And that is when I realized how close to death I was.
Wow.
Again, I'm not judging a single person who might have this interest.
I'm not here to dictate what anyone does in their free time
or to make someone feel bad about their interest.
But please, everyone, do not use real chloroform.
I want everyone to be safe and alive.
So with that being said, remember the three pillars.
Safe, sane, consensual.
A woman in New York, let's call her Valerie, she's anonymous.
In the last few months of 2023, she's been having these dreams.
It feels like a dream.
And logically, it makes the most sense that it's a dream
because there's no other explanation for any of this.
She will just wake up in the middle of the night,
see what feels like a rag being held over her face.
She smells a strong, slightly sweet, but also chemically sent.
And then she blacks out.
Maybe she goes back to sleep.
Maybe it's a dream she doesn't even know.
The first time it happened, I'm sure we can all come up
with some sort of rational explanation for this.
But the second time, the third time, the fourth time, she's like,
okay, I just need to know what is going on.
What is happening?
Why do I keep having these dreams or visions or whatever this is?
December 29th, 2023, she decides to set up a hidden camera
right behind the humidifier of the turtle tank in the room.
She's got a little turtle tank in there.
She sets up the camera and she's just recording herself.
She just wants to know what is happening when she goes to sleep,
that she has these weird memories, dreams.
She doesn't know.
She sets up the camera in the room and she falls asleep.
She comes to, she wakes up at around two in the morning
and she decides, okay, that was weird.
I felt like I had the same dream.
I had the same feeling.
Let me go check the camera.
She rewatches the footage in the middle of the night.
After she had fallen asleep that night,
a man walks in with a rag into her room while she's sleeping,
approaches the bed, pushes the rag against her face.
And I'm sure she can visibly on the footage see herself struggling,
fighting it before her body goes limp and she blacks out.
That figure then proceeds to touch her sexually everywhere.
But the craziest thing is she was at work that night.
The man in the video is her boss.
60-year-old Paul Giacopalli, an anesthesiologist,
drugging her and essaying her while she works overnight to babysit his kids
who both have disabilities while he's supposed to be at the hospital
and he came back to drug her and essay her.
The doctor is immediately arrested and confesses to the whole thing.
He says, yes, he would fill this rag with seville fluorine.
It's an anesthetic that he would bring home from the hospital.
He would put it on a rag.
Now, I do want to mention that even though he reportedly later states to the authorities
that he has chloroform fetish, he did not use chloroform.
It's no longer used in hospitals.
Seville fluorine is supposed to be the safer version of it.
And apparently, it has a much, much quicker recovery time
compared to other inhaled anesthetics like chloroform,
which also means it's easier for doctors to control.
It's great, but it's still incredibly dangerous.
He put seville fluorine that he stole from the hospital,
put it on a rag to cover his babysitter's nose and mouth to render her unconscious.
So I wanted to talk about this case because I saw a few people emailing me about it
after we talked about the French case.
Literally, the last episode was the French case where the wife was getting drugged
and they were like, oh my gosh, recently on the news,
there had been not the same but the similar method being used in the States.
The doctor stated that he was attracted to the element of her being blacked out
because he personally has quote chloroform fetish.
Now, I'm glad that he told the authorities all of this,
but also I'm not sure where his attorney is because he states
he specifically chose to do this to his nanny
because she's a quote easy target and she's a quote heavy sleeper.
Mind you, he is a chief anesthesiologist at his hospital.
He's also a dad to two twin girls and he's married.
When the authorities searched his house,
they found other drugs that he had taken home from the hospital such as fentanyl.
He had enough fentanyl to kill 8,000 people.
Somehow with the video evidence with the crimes of stealing drugs from the hospital,
he was just barred from practicing medicine
and will only have to serve four years in prison.
That is it.
He's 60 by the way.
So if there are conversations right now about
is she really the only victim that he's had?
He's likely been practicing as an anesthesiologist for most of his life.
He's admitted to having a chloroform fetish according to the press releases
and the way he commits his crime is so aggressively in your face.
He has no fear.
Some theorize that he could have easily had more victims, which side note,
if it is true that he has this particular fetish interest, that's terrifying.
There was this one poster on a forum that reads,
I have a major fantasy about women being put to sleep through chloroform.
AMA.
Ask me anything.
Someone commented, have you ever considered becoming an anesthesiologist?
To which this person with the same shared interest responds,
wow, amazing question.
There absolutely was a time in my life where the idea crossed my mind.
I was a teenager deciding what to do after school.
I was incredibly terrified though,
at the idea of living a life where my work and my fantasies were mixing together.
A major part of it was, could I have kept it all together
and manage this fantasy in a professional context?
I think it's already hard enough to just plain have this fantasy
and openly talk about it.
In a professional context though, it would be impossible.
If this topic would come up in real life,
even amongst my friends and people that I trust and respect,
even when everybody around me is drunk, I get super red and I start getting flustered.
Like this mixed feeling of enjoyment, embarrassment and arousal.
What if I'm on the operating table and I royally fuck up because I have this fantasy?
I could never live with myself.
Many netizens agree stating it makes it even creepier
that Dr. Paul is an anesthesiologist because again,
if it's true that he has this fetish, imagine the anesthesiologist in charge of your life
keeping you stable and safe during the operation
is too busy getting off on the fact that they rendered you unconscious.
Mm-hmm.
Even minor errors or oversights in anesthesiology have severe consequences.
Literally death, brain damage, death, those are the consequences.
Another comment reads, shouldn't the fact that he was a doctor and had knowledge
and the specialized knowledge and commission of these crimes
have been an aggregator rather than a mitigator?
I mean, it makes the crime worse that he knows how dangerous this is.
Yeah.
Another comment reads, so she basically got all the evidence herself,
gave it to the police, and then he only got four years?
This is so ridiculous.
His attorney states that Dr. Paul is now quote,
assuming responsibility for his crimes and is now focusing on tending to his family.
One comment just reads, that's privilege for you.
Fucks with money buying the best lawyers and gaming the whole biased legal system.
There is a lawsuit pending in civil court.
I hope the victim gets better justice in the civil courts
because this whole situation is very demented.
What are your thoughts on that situation?
I just wanted to cover the case because I did receive a few emails on it.
It reminded me so much of the French case in a certain way,
and it's happening here in the United States,
but there wasn't enough information to do a full deep dive.
So we'll just have to wait and see what happens in the civil courts.
So with that being said, we would like to thank today's sponsors
who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support Kaylee Mills Foundation,
a nonprofit established to encourage people to drive responsibly.
They help rebuild families' lives after experiencing loss and hardship
from fatal and even non-fatal car crashes.
They do individualized financial assistance, grief counseling, and emotional support.
This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's growing team.
We would also like to thank you guys for your continued support
as we work on our mission to be worthy advocates.
As always, full show notes are available at RottenMangoPodcast.com.
With that being said, let's get into today's case.
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There is a battle of the best, if you will.
It's like a competition where 10 groups of people
each take technology that NASA and SpaceX use to build rockets.
And they funnel in $135 million every single year
to race each other in high-speed cars.
We're talking about Formula One.
On 22 to 24 different tracks around the world, they race each other.
The competition goes a little like this.
Each team out of the 10 teams has to design and manufacture their own car from scratch,
their own vehicles.
There's a whole list of regulations that are set by the FIA and the F1 teams
that each team has to follow.
Apparently, that's why it's called Formula One.
That's the formula in Formula One.
Given the regulations, given all of these random rules,
each team is trying to find the best formula for the fastest car.
And it's really difficult.
I mean, the regulations are pretty nitpicky.
One interesting regulation is that F1 drivers' drink bottles
need to be one and a half liters or less.
What does that mean?
Like, that's not a lot of water?
Is that what?
It's not a lot of water at all.
Okay.
For the whole 90 minutes that they're racing.
And the fact that they're regulating how much water or how much drink
you can bring into your car as an F1 driver is kind of fascinating.
Now, they say it's set because it's a safety hazard in the case of a crash.
But also, without a bottle limit,
teams might try to use larger drink containers for weight distribution benefits.
It's that crazy.
Which, side note, they're not even talking about Stanley bottles.
The drink system for drivers is typically this big squeezy bag
that's piped into their helmet.
And it's not water.
It's glucose water.
It's sugar water that has vitamins and minerals to keep drivers
at peak performance levels throughout the 90 minutes.
Some drivers state,
actually, I don't even like to drink it during the whole 90 minutes.
After the first lap, I stopped drinking it because the heat in the car
heats up the drink to the point where it's uncomfortably hot.
So within all these highly specific regulations,
each car needs to be able to be the fastest at two things.
Going high speeds in a straight line on a straight road,
but also very good at making super fast turns.
Apparently, that's a very difficult combination to nail.
If you're good at one, likely you're not good at the other one.
These people are basically testing the rules of physics on a daily basis.
You also have to factor in that at the end of the day,
these are cars.
They can overheat.
You need to have cooling systems to make sure your car does not
essentially blow up from overexerting itself.
And it is so, so detailed.
You know how the Formula One cars, they have the logos and sponsors on their cars.
The fastest, cheapest way to get those logos would to be
slap a giant sticker on the car like a bumper sticker,
which they don't do because it's not because they need to save money.
It's because even the stickers add the tiniest bit of weight,
which causes drag on the cars.
So they need to be spray painted on.
The 10 teams are coming in to the finish line within seconds of each other.
The margins of winning are so slim.
The only way to win is to make sure that every aspect of each car
is as near perfect as you can get it.
Some of the most notable teams are Red Bull Racing,
McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, Aston Martin.
They have to create the fastest car they can
and then repeat the process because each team has two drivers.
But the process is not easy.
These teams then meet up around the world on these very oddly shaped tracks
to race each other going over 200 miles per hour.
There's a whole operation behind the scenes.
F1 feels more like a tech sport than anything.
There's a control center of people being fed information in real time
about the car's performance.
They factor in a million possible scenarios.
They pick the best ones.
They strategize.
They feed it to the driver in real time.
There is so much going on.
It is a very dangerous sport.
In each race, the drivers can lose up to 10 pounds of just water.
They become severely dehydrated because of the stress that their body is under.
This sport requires you to train very strange muscles
that normally people do not train.
The neck muscle being one.
That's why a lot of the F1 drivers have pretty thick necks
because when your car is moving and turning at such a high speed,
the G force that's applied to your neck could snap your neck.
And if you snap your neck, you're pretty much dead.
They train by hanging these weights like the weights that you use at the gym.
And instead of doing squats with them or bicep curls,
they hang them off their neck to work out their neck
and people will pull on them to help build their resistance.
Now, as well as breathing, the G force causes them to not be able to breathe.
They need to have the correct breathing techniques
to not lose their breath and make a mistake
or honestly cause a fatal accident because of it.
It's a very unique set of skills.
One that is described as having the strategic abilities as a chess grandmaster,
but having the reflexes and quick maneuvers of a firefighter.
And then the average reaction time for an F1 driver is around 200 milliseconds.
So when that buzzer goes off, they react in 200 milliseconds, pedal to the metal.
To give you an idea, Usain Bolt, his reaction time is 160 milliseconds.
The average human, you and I, 600 milliseconds.
Huge difference.
And then having the stamina and endurance of a marathon runner,
there are so many safety regulations that are put in place.
And there's all these things that each team does to mitigate any sort of accident.
But ultimately, even with hundreds of highly skilled engineers
and safety experts working on these cars,
even with these professionally trained drivers who know exactly what they're doing,
they practice their whole lives for this.
F1 is ultimately a very dangerous sport.
The cars are being driven at high speeds,
crashes, flips, fires.
Over the years, a lot of F1 drivers have died.
It's not safe.
But what happens when a 16-year-old spoiled teenager gets into a fight with his mom
because he doesn't have his own American Express gold card
and decides to go onto the street
and drive like a Formula 1 race car driver on a residential road?
Grosse Pointe, Michigan is a place where if you want to be seen,
you should probably buy a nice car.
It's not the wealthiest zip code in Michigan,
but a good chunk of it is in the second wealthiest neighborhood of Michigan.
It's a well-off area.
Some people say you can tell it's a good area
because when you drive by the local high school,
the parking lots, the way that they're set up,
I mean, you're seeing high schoolers drive in in Mercedes, Range Rovers, Audis.
That's typically when you know you're dealing with a rather wealthy crowd.
It's definitely a neighborhood where a good chunk of the kids,
they go on family vacations to Europe during summer break.
But even then, a BMW X3 M series is a pretty standout car.
The BMW X3 M series is a $70,000 SUV.
It's high performance.
It's a luxury.
It's a BMW.
It has significantly way more power than a regular SUV and it's a lot sportier.
The M is the performance version of the BMW cars.
The car goes from 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds.
A regular SUV of that size, 6 to 8 seconds, 0 to 60.
And it's not just about how quickly it goes.
It's about how fast it can go, period.
A regular SUV, you're talking 120 miles per hour.
That's your max.
The BMW X3 M, 177 miles per hour,
which honestly, I don't know when you'll ever need that
unless you plan on taking your SUV to the track.
Across the US, the highest speed limit zones are usually in the rural highways
and you're looking at 85 miles per hour.
That's the speed limit.
Nowhere near this 177 miles per hour this BMW can do.
But I think the part that gets a lot of people going about this car,
especially the ones that are into cars, it's a high performance model.
So yes, it's going to make a lot more noise than a regular SUV.
The engine is going to react, make those loud crackling noises
that a lot of car people are into.
And because this is a wealthy neighborhood,
a lot of these kids have access to these nicer cars.
Around September of 2023, everyone in the neighborhood
is talking about how this young girl in Gross Point
was killed by a drunk driver.
Kiernan Tag, a 16-year-old swimmer, he's in high school,
his sister texted him the article about the girl that was killed
and he responds, Jesus, that's tragic.
I knew her.
A few weeks later, Kiernan Tag would be inside of a BMW
that's been flipped over and the car will be smashed to pieces.
The human body is technically just a bag of meat.
I know that sounds very morbid, but it's a bag of meat and organs.
I think sometimes we all like to think the human body
is this miraculous feat of ingenuity
that can overcome pretty much anything, which is sometimes valid.
But also, if you throw a bag of meat at the wall
going 60 miles per hour, there's just no way it's going to end well.
That is what happens when people get into car crashes.
They state going 100 miles per hour in a car
and colliding into something stationary
is enough to turn you into meat soup.
That's how first responders react.
One netizen puts it quite bluntly.
When you hit something, that energy has to go somewhere.
It can't just disappear.
So it gets transferred to whatever you hit and to your body.
That means your car gets crumpled up like a soda can
and your body gets slammed by massive forces.
Your bones break, your organs rupture
because your organs are not stationary inside of your body.
They can move around.
They can hit your chest wall.
The brain gets shaken like a snow globe.
The brain, if you hit something with so much force,
the brain is going to move forward and collide with your skull,
causing concussions or worse.
Your neck might snap like a twig causing paralysis or death.
Many people believe the higher the speed,
the less probability you have to survive.
The faster you're going before a crash,
the less likely you're going to be able to get down
to a survivable speed.
So what can you do to avoid this nightmare scenario?
The obvious answer is don't drive at 100 miles per hour.
Seriously, there's no good reason to do that.
It is illegal, dangerous, and very stupid.
That is what a lot of the commentators state.
They state not only are you risking your life,
but others on the road.
November 17, 2023, in Grosse Pointe, Michigan,
on this very quiet residential street
with these wealthy homes perfectly lined up,
it's not even that late at night
when residents hear what sounds like this big crack of thunder.
They're like, what was that?
Then another noise, and it sounds like a stick of dynamite exploding.
There's weird hissing noises, whirring noises,
just all sorts of weird chaotic sounds.
And then there's almost this brief ear screeching scraping noise.
If you're going to get a piece of jagged metal
and then just drag it across the driveway,
that's what it sounds like.
What the hell is that?
Some of the neighbors, they run out onto the street
and they see this white mess.
It's a white ball on the ground next to this big oak tree.
They're like, that is a car.
It is a car that has been flipped over.
Now, if they know anything about cars,
they would know that this is a full-sized SUV
that's flipped over next to the tree.
But because of how it slammed into the tree,
half of the car looks like it's gone missing.
It looks like half the car was cut.
Someone took a knife, cut half the car, and then stole the rest.
It's been crumbled.
It's not even just flying apart.
You know, sometimes you go onto the highway
and you see accidents and someone's bumper is on one side,
someone's door is on the other side.
It's not like that.
It looks like the car disappeared,
squished to the point that you cannot even recognize it.
It's like someone sent half of the front of the car
through a hydraulic press.
In front of the car, there is this oak tree
that has clearly been hit.
But behind the car, there's a lamppost that's been knocked down.
So it seems like this car was on the road,
drove through the lamppost, knocked it down,
flipped in the air and hit the tree before hitting the floor.
Wow.
So it's like flying almost.
They said it flew in the air.
This is a residential street with really nobody else on the road
What kind of speeds does this car have to be going to do all of that?
In order to hit the tree with that kind of impact,
it had to be going over 90 miles per hour,
probably over 100 miles per hour in a residential street.
That means the driver of this car had pushed the accelerator down completely.
Side note, going over 105 miles per hour straight towards a tree is
the car is basically going to disintegrate on impact.
If you've ever seen a car,
a crash dummy car heading straight towards a concrete wall or a tree at 105 miles per hour,
you will see that where the car comes into contact with the object,
it's like it enters a portal.
It just disappears.
It doesn't break apart.
It crumbles to the point where it's gone.
It's so quick, it doesn't even look like a dent.
It looks like that part of the car just vanished.
So if you're in the front seats of a car and it hits a tree at 105 miles per hour,
it's like being in the epicenter of a small explosion.
It doesn't really matter at this point if you have your seatbelt or your airbags deploy.
The human body just simply is not designed to withstand those kinds of forces on the body.
Internal organs are hitting up against your chest wall.
That also happens with your head.
If your brain hits the inner skull with enough force, that's a death sentence.
The force of the collision practically disintegrated this vehicle.
The engine, the transmission, they're no longer even attached to the car anymore.
In the middle of this random neighborhood,
this BMW X3 is just sitting there completely obliterated.
When first responders get to the scene, they realize two of the local star swimmers.
One is this 18-year-old freshman in college, Flynn MacKrell.
Another, a 16-year-old boy in high school, Kiernan Tag.
They were both in the car.
They were less than a mile from Flynn's home.
They're going faster than 100 miles per hour in a 25 mile per hour residential zone.
They're going 80 over the limit.
When the investigators get there, it is unclear if anyone was able to survive the incident
until they see a foot and another.
And one of the two boys in the car steps out by themselves
and then collapses right in front of the investigators.
He's going to be rushed to the hospital with serious injuries
and the other occupant would be pronounced dead at the scene.
There were no drugs involved.
There was no alcohol involved.
So what the hell happened?
16-year-old Kiernan Tag wakes up in the hospital and everybody is asking him,
what happened?
Like what happened in the car?
What the hell is going on?
And this all starts because of an American Express Gold card.
An American Express Gold card is not the most prestigious credit card on the market,
but it's not an easy one to get.
Typically, you need to have an excellent credit score
and there is a $250 annual fee just to have the credit card to be able to use the credit card.
The average Gold card holder likely makes around $130,000 a year, their household income.
That's what the estimates show.
But 16-year-old Kiernan Tag is like, I want my Gold card.
I want a Gold card.
That is crazy.
He's pissed that he doesn't have one to the point where he allegedly starts throwing
and breaking things inside the house, screaming at his mom about how unfair it is
that he doesn't have an Amex.
He's breaking curfew.
He's sneaking out in the middle of the night.
He's taking his mom's credit cards to buy whatever he wants without her knowing.
He's taking the car out when he shouldn't.
There was this one incident where people were called to Kiernan's house because
he wanted to take out his mom's car, the BMW or the Audi.
She refuses.
He breaks the coffee table.
He even admits it.
In a very gaslighting manner.
He breaks her table, storms out.
He's 16 by the way.
And then he texts his mom.
I simply asked you if I could take your car.
Yet you refused.
Now I'm running late and now we have a broken table.
Eventually he would text her.
Okay, fine.
I'm sorry about your table.
All of this because his mom did not let him take the Audi sports coupe out for a joy ride.
And maybe she shouldn't let him have the car.
Just a few days before the accident, Kiernan filmed himself driving at 140 miles per hour,
which was four times the speed limit where he was.
There is a clip of him on the highway going nearly 140 miles per hour.
There is a clip of him at a red light when the light turned green.
He acts like this is the starting of an F1 circuit.
He just pedals to the metal.
He records himself 140 miles like.
And he posted on to Snapchat for his close friends.
He does the same thing in residential areas.
And another time he's in this parking lot.
He makes a left turn.
He waits for this elderly woman to walk past.
So clearly he knows this is an area where people are just walking around.
He waits for her to pass.
Slams on the gas.
Four months leading up to the accident in November of 2023.
He was hitting speeds of 127, 143, 102, 150, 155 miles per hour on the road.
All on completely separate dates.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't know it.
He thinks he's going to be featured on the next Fast and the Furious movie or something.
I don't know what the purpose of this, any of this.
Ultimately, he's taking pictures of his own crimes as well.
And these are likely going to show up in trial later.
In October, he was in the car driving 94 times in the month of October.
In almost half of his rides, he's hitting 90 miles per hour speeds.
In October, he was driving 94 times.
Yes.
Like three times a day.
Yes.
And in half of those, he's driving over 90 miles per hour.
The highest speed ever recorded was two weeks before the crash.
He went 153 miles per hour for 20 miles.
People did the math, which going 153 miles per hour for 20 minutes
is about eight minutes of full on driving at 153 miles per hour.
To give you some context, each track for F1 drivers is different.
But even on the faster tracks, because some tracks, it's easier to go faster.
There's more straight shots.
It's just safer per average 90 minute races.
Each F1 race lasts about 90 minutes on a super fast track.
Drivers will spend 18 to 27 minutes going 150 miles per hour faster on a slow track.
Maybe they spend closer to four and a half to nine minutes going 150 miles per hour faster.
So he was going like F1 speed.
Yes.
But this is like, I don't even think the nine minutes is straight.
I'm sure it's collectively nine minutes.
Right, right, right.
But he's going eight minutes nonstop at 150 miles per hour for 20 miles.
That is crazy.
And he's documenting it and sharing it everywhere.
Yes.
That is crazy.
That means a lot of people saw it too.
Wow.
Now, going 153 miles for eight minutes, yes, may be safe for F1 drivers, not for real roads.
Clearly, Kiernan needs to be arrested.
He's been driving recklessly for months prior to the accident.
He would drive and just slam on the accelerator, sending the car 100, 150 miles down a residential
street.
Eventually, in November, he would slam it into a tree, killing his friend, his passenger,
Flynn MacKrell.
There are now calls, though, for his mom to also be arrested.
Now, I think this is the element that this case is getting a lot more attention,
along with the fact that Kiernan is just overall a pretty spoiled kid.
But given the information you have right now, do you think the mother should be held
accountable because he's a 16-year-old?
Maybe he's abusive with his mom, but that doesn't mean that she will automatically
think that he's reckless with his car, right?
Maybe he blocked her on Snapchat, or do you think she knew?
What would be your answer right now?
Because maybe the next information is going to change your opinion.
Kiernan's mom was scared something was going to happen while her son was driving.
She knew that he was speeding and driving recklessly.
September 14, 2023, two months before the crash, Elizabeth, Kiernan's mom,
texts Kiernan angry, slow the fuck down right now.
She can see that he's driving at 123 miles per hour because she has the Life360 app,
which is basically a tracking app for some parents or families or couples to make sure
that their kids are safe.
There's a lot of controversy about the app, but the app will track your location,
and it'll even alert parents if you're a reckless driver because it gives them alert
on how fast your vehicle is moving based off the data from your phone.
So if your phone is in the car, they can tell you how fast that car is going.
That is crazy.
It can also tell you if your child or whoever you have on the Life360 app has been in a car
accident or if their battery is going low.
So every time Kiernan was speeding 94 times in the month of October,
Elizabeth, his mom would get a notification, an alert on her phone,
which a lot of people are saying, then shouldn't it just have been one time?
If your child is speeding, why still give them car privileges?
Driving is a privilege.
It's not a right.
A few weeks before the crash, Kiernan's sister even texted him,
speed limits exist for a reason.
And she linked the article about the victim of the drunk driver.
And he says, that's tragic.
I knew her.
Kiernan's sister send it to him like an older sister.
Yeah.
But clearly it does nothing to his brain.
Because two hours later, his mom starts texting him,
I have screenshots of you doing 90 miles per hour in the middle of the night
when I didn't even know you left your friend's house.
And again, two weeks ago, going 123 miles per hour just because.
Your obsession, word choice here is intentional,
with cars having upwards of 600 horsepower is not healthy.
It's not safe.
And it scares me to my bone.
Three weeks later, Kiernan's mom buys a BMW X3 M series.
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The thing I hate the most about shopping isn't the shopping itself.
It's the dressing room.
I feel like stores have a vendetta against their customers because why do they set up
their dressing rooms like that?
I swear the mirrors make me look a little bit weirder.
The weird white light makes my skin look sickly pale.
If you want to feel bad about yourself, I feel like I just go to a dressing room.
That's why I often have to buy the clothes and bring them home to see if I like the way they fit
or I can pair them with other shoes.
I can try to look at it in different lightings.
Which is such a hassle because then you go to the store, you come back,
and then online shopping is just as bad because every time I try to buy something,
they never have my size or I get it and I'm like,
okay, that was actually not my style at all.
It's gotten to the point where shopping just isn't fun except with Stitch Fix.
Stitch Fix has honestly taken all the chore out of shopping for me
because it pretty much does it for me.
Signing up for Stitch Fix is so easy.
They gave me my own personal stylist and all I had to do was give them my size,
style, and budget as well as preferences.
I can order boxes when I want and how I want because there's no subscription required.
My stylist will send me pieces just for me and outfit recommendations and styling tips.
I keep what I love and I send the rest back.
I think all of my favorite pieces have been from Stitch Fix because my stylist is just that good.
And recently, well, not recently, but I did get my color analysis done.
And ever since then, I sent her the results of that.
And I feel like she always picks the colors now that works with my color analysis.
Like this light blue color is on my color theory.
And on top of that, I don't have to deal with stores,
the weird dressing rooms, or even the disappointment of not finding my size online
because Stitch Fix makes it so easy.
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That's stitchfix.com slash rotten.
Some argue, even if she didn't have the app,
it's pretty easy to tell that he's doing these things.
I mean, he's taking videos of himself basically drag racing.
And even if she didn't take away his car for that,
he's done so many other things to warrant him getting his keys taken.
In 2020, a police report shows that Kiernan assaulted his mom and just left the house.
He went to a friend's.
Apparently they got into this massive argument where he was driving.
She was in the backseat.
He turns around and starts punching.
In 2020, he was driving.
If he was 16 years old, that means he's like 12, 13.
Yeah, I don't know why he's driving.
What?
And he starts punching his mom and biting down on his mom.
She called the police on him.
While he's driving?
Yeah.
What is going on?
Now, I mean, you can't really say that the mom is so lost and confused on what to do either.
I mean, I don't think you can.
At one point about a month prior to the accident,
she texts her son, her 16 year old son, and asks him to pick up a bottle of wine for her.
She texts, will you pick up a bottle of wine, please?
He responds, sure.
A week later, just a few days before the crash,
she texts him a screenshot of an article that lists out the punishments for someone
who is using a fake ID.
Which I mean, she didn't send that a week prior
when she was asking him to pick up a bottle of wine.
So it's a little strange.
It's very confusing behavior.
Wait, the mother asked a 16 year old son to pick up a wine
because she knew that he has a fake ID.
But I guess she's okay with it because he says, sure.
Now, I did see some people who claim they know the family,
who claim they're from Grosse Pointe,
and they claim that the mother has a drinking problem.
Okay, well, it doesn't matter.
But the fact that she's asking an underage son to pick up a drink for her?
Yes.
And then a week later, since that article, what's the intention behind that?
I don't know.
I don't know because I was trying to wrap my head around it.
And I'm like, okay, if I were a mom,
I think if I had a suspicion that my kid had an ID,
I would just send that article.
I wouldn't make him actually go commit a crime
because him having a fake ID
and then going to buy a bottle of wine are two different charges.
Yeah.
And then me requesting him to buy a bottle of wine
is also very bad parenting,
even if I'm trying to prove a point or trying to figure out if he has a fake ID.
It's just very odd behavior.
Now, throughout all of this, she never takes his keys away.
Since 2018, Kiernan has at least 22 documented incidents with the police,
the majority of the calls being about him wildly out of control.
His mom would call the police having no idea how to calm him down.
At one point, he was arrested for domestic violence against his mom.
He had to be held in a youth center in the county.
While Flynn's parents, they just remember, well, Flynn's mom says,
I was standing in the foyer of the house
and listening to them saying there was a crash less than a while away
and your son didn't make it.
And I couldn't, I mean, all I could say was no.
Flynn's parents believe that Kiernan's mom should be held responsible.
Side note, Kiernan's dad and his mom were divorced recently
and soon afterwards Kiernan's dad passed.
So it's really just his mom in the picture.
Flynn's parents say Elizabeth, his mom should be held accountable.
They say she was sitting on a ticking time bomb.
She knows he's out of control, yet she basically gets him a weapon.
It's like she handed him an AR-15.
They argue because this wasn't an accident.
Accidents cannot be prevented.
This could have been prevented 100% not only once,
but for four months it could have been prevented.
She knew and admitted in the text that she knew her son was breaking the law,
acting criminally and expressed that it was not safe
any reasonable person would have done something very, very simple
and that would have been take the keys away and she didn't do it.
And now our son is dead.
Every day we wake up in shock and disbelief that our son,
our beloved Flynn is gone and it was 100% preventable.
The slightly unexpected and kind of wild part is Kiernan's mom is an educator.
What do you mean? A teacher?
She's the campus minister at the University of Detroit.
Her LinkedIn reads, passionate leader, educator, mentor and marketing executive,
mindfulness-based stress reduction instructor,
credentialed in leading trauma-informed and teen mindfulness programs,
student coach and mentor.
She writes, I'm regularly involved in school activities and functions
and seek to proactively improve the children's learning experience,
which I mean, I feel like she hasn't been quite proactive in her son's life,
but that could be an overstep on my part.
Flynn's parents have also stated any reasonable person would have done something.
They would have just taken the keys away.
That's it. That's all we were asking for.
A lot of news articles, and I think Flynn's parents themselves,
are referencing another case in Michigan,
which might feel reminiscent of what's happening in Georgia right now.
But there was another case in Michigan where in 2021,
there was a deadly shooting at Oxford High School.
The killer's parents were also charged for buying the gun for their son.
They did not take reasonable actions to prevent their child from harming others.
They didn't put a cable lock on the gun.
He drew a picture of a gun in class and wrote on the page,
the thoughts won't stop.
Help me.
But they did nothing.
They were both held responsible for the lives of four students
and sentenced to 10 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter.
So he was sentenced more.
Yes, but the parents were also sentenced.
Now, a lot of people have referenced the Crumbly case
when talking about the Kiernan case.
Flynn's parents argue it's the same core principles.
The Crumbly parents did not secure the weapon.
And in this case, Flynn's parents argue the car is a weapon.
A car can kill people.
So yes, it's a weapon is what they're arguing.
The parents ignored the warning signs.
They argued Kiernan's mom could clearly see that he's speeding
and he's not getting better.
There's negligence.
Flynn's parents argue that Elizabeth Kiernan's mom
was negligent of helping her son to stop behaving recklessly
and still let him put himself in those positions of being behind the wheel.
And they provided access.
So in the Crumbly case, obviously refers to the gun.
But in this situation, Flynn's parents argue the car is the weapon.
And when Elizabeth would go out of town,
she would leave all the keys just in a drawer
where he would have unlimited access to them.
Some people think that's not a great analogy.
Other people think there's a better analogy,
which is a case in New York recently.
A mom and dad were criminally charged after their son crashed a BMW into a truck.
At more than 100 miles per hour, killing his 14 year old passenger.
The parents were charged with endangering the welfare of a child
for allowing their son to drive while he was legally unable to do so.
It seems like Flynn's parents are hoping for the same thing in this case,
which brings us to the question of should a parent be held responsible
if their child kills someone while recklessly driving a family car?
Now, just a side note, just so I don't not address it,
there are allegations that Flynn's parents have some wild,
and I mean wild political views.
Okay, I'm not sure how accurate the sentiment is.
I don't personally know them.
It could be a rumor.
It could be one or two articles,
but it has been brought up a few times in the comments,
which I think is always important.
So there's like Reddit threads talking about it.
But in this situation, I think it has nothing to do with Flynn.
Flynn was the one that passed.
This is not really his views.
We don't know his views.
And his parents' political leanings are not his.
So with that being said, there are a few group of people,
some that are conflicted on whether or not Kiernan's mom
could control him at this point.
Some are saying, I mean, he sounds out of control.
There's nothing that she could have done, really.
If she took the keys away, he probably would have beat her,
is what people are saying.
But even then, it's like you could just call the police
and have him taken to a juvenile center then.
Yeah, do the right thing, yeah.
One comment reads,
his mother told police her son was abusive
and that she was afraid of him.
The police report shows multiple calls
about both violence and speeding.
Sounds like the mother did everything she could.
He was reckless and took an innocent life.
Hope he pays for the rest of his.
One netizen has a bit of an unpopular opinion,
but they write, you people are fucking insane.
If the driver's mothers should be charged
for not taking away the keys,
the victim's parents should also be charged
for allowing their son to ride with him.
Another one reads,
if you get into a vehicle with someone
that is your free will decision.
What?
One parent writes,
so if a teen gets an STD and passes it to another person,
is the parent responsible?
If the teen goes off to war, are the parents responsible?
Teens have impulses.
You can be the best parent in the world,
but one mistake and it can be life changing.
We need to stop blaming the parents
and start blaming the individual.
To which someone just responds, insane analogy.
Which I do have to agree with that opinion.
Side note, the family seems to have three cars.
Kiernan has three cars in the family
for just him and his mom.
A Subaru Forester, an Audi coupe, and a BMW X3 M series.
Flynn's parents also argue, fine.
Let's say Kiernan's mom absolutely,
for whatever reason that doesn't make sense,
could not take away his keys.
Why not give him the Subaru keys, the much slower car?
And a lot of others agree with that sentiment.
One legal expert states,
Kiernan's mom had months and months of knowledge
of her son's reckless driving
and she not only failed to take the keys away,
she actually gave him a car that could go faster.
One comment reads,
the mother should not have let her son drive at all.
I believe she should be charged.
Another mom agrees writing,
let me find out my daughter is driving recklessly.
She won't have a car.
She would have to ask me
every time she even steps out the front door.
Another parent wholeheartedly agrees writing,
my oldest son, 16, just got his license a month ago.
He is under no illusions.
If he violates any traffic loss,
speeds, runs a stop sign so much as looks at his phone,
he will never be driving again until he's 18.
At the DMV, they made it quite clear to him
that the state and I both have the right
to revoke his license and he knows I absolutely will.
Raise your kids right.
Make sure they understand
they will be held accountable for their actions
and this kind of thing would not happen.
One comment reads,
this reeks of entitlement and God complex.
Tragic that the mother either couldn't
or wouldn't control him
and it cost someone else their life.
We don't often think of vehicles as deadly weapons
but we have vehicular manslaughter laws for a reason.
Flynn's parents argue,
I want him in prison for as long as possible.
Why should he get a break?
The kid is at every break and every privilege there is.
There's so many instances of criminal behavior.
This is an individual who knows right and wrong,
has most privileges most people will never enjoy
and he chose to drive homocidally
and murderously and break our laws.
This is a person that needs to be taken out of society
because he is dangerous
and the only way to restore is through punishment
if you're that kind of criminal.
Flynn McCrell was six foot four.
He's tall.
He's got this very shaggy red hair,
orangish hair
and everyone said that he's a bit of a gentle giant.
They said he is the baby of the family.
The one that he couldn't even go to amusement parks
because he didn't like roller coasters.
His family can't stop thinking about how
he must have died in fear.
He was always the quickest to crack a smile
and he had just come home from Thanksgiving break.
So a lot of people were asking
if he was posting these on Snapchat,
if Kiernan was posting this,
then Flynn must have seen.
But Flynn's parents argued they really weren't that close.
Flynn had just come home from Thanksgiving break
and to him Kiernan was just the nice kid.
He's just a few years younger trying to also be a swimmer.
So the way the relationship seems is Kiernan was looking at Flynn
almost like a swim mentor
and perhaps he didn't show Flynn
the bad sides of his personality and his habits
because they didn't have a cool friend relationship.
It's not like he's trying to...
It gives the older guy mentor and his little mentee.
He always looked up to Flynn.
Flynn's parents said whenever he came around,
we never had any inkling.
He was very polite.
After every meal, he would thank us.
He always offered to help bring groceries into the house
if one of us had gone shopping.
They don't even go to the same school.
They're not even the same age.
Flynn is a freshman in college.
He's 16.
They just live on the same street
and they're both swimmers.
That's how they know each other.
It just seemed like Flynn took on this friendship
with Kiernan as a helping role
and he just wanted Kiernan to be a better swimmer.
Flynn's older brother says Flynn was an angel.
He was selfless.
He wanted so much for you.
I feel as though I've lost my life when Flynn was murdered.
I've been robbed of the next 60 to 70 years of my life with Flynn.
Flynn wasn't worried about the future.
He wasn't worried about his own place in this world
because he innately didn't have to be worried.
He was always in the moment
and I will always think of him and I will see him again.
Flynn's mom says,
nothing is going to end the hell that we have been through.
It is inconceivable to me that I've lost my son.
To say this is a living hell is an understatement.
My family has been ruined.
My family's life has been ruined.
No one should ever, ever,
have to lose a child like this.
I still can't believe my big calm son is gone.
There are rumors that Kiernan is out on bail.
He was arrested.
He's out on bail
and there were rumors that he was dancing on TikTok
with his girlfriend to the song Celebration
about two months after he killed Flynn.
He allegedly wrote a poem for school Ode to the Frog
and it reads,
Oh Mr. Frog, the hate you give
through that wretched croak it deafens me
making me feel like a bloke you're always there
I can't escape the wretched croak
all animals live carefully scared of what's to come
never knowing when a breath could be their last croak
croak croak here came the frog
and with it came death I was scared
but all of a sudden I awoke.
Kiernan is currently out on bond awaiting trial
which is set to start February of 2025
he will be tried for second degree murder
he's a minor when this took place he was 16
he's 17 now
but he will be charged as adult designated
which means if he's convicted
the judge can sentence him as an adult
or a juvenile or a mixture of both
they can kind of blend the sentence
the most he can face
if the judge decides to sentence him as an adult
he'll be facing life in prison as maximum punishment.
What are your thoughts on this case?
How long do you think he deserves to be in prison?
Yeah it's so scary
especially driving residential roads
I go under a speed limit
because I'm like you never know when there's a pet
when there's a kid
so please stay safe
and I will see you in the next one.
