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I have been listening to the Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club, which actually Elena recommended to me.
She did not listen to it, but she said, girl, this title sounds so you.
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Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. My name's Ash. And this is a mini mini morbid.
Mini, mini, mini, mini, mini morbid. Mini morbid, mini morbid, mini morbid. ooh la la you know that even though we just said like who who's hey weirdos it was i just when you hit record i went to say hey Hey, weirdos.
It happens. Here we are. It's late. It's been a long week.
You just broke your finger. I just want to put my hand down and I punch the floor.
It happens. And also, this is not going to be a mini morbid.
No, it's actually not. It is a mini morbid.
It's a whole ass morbid. But it's a whole ass morbid.
This one's very, very special because, guys, we are revisiting a case that I actually did.
Hi, Amelina. that I actually did as one of my minis.
It wasn't a mini at all when I did it, of course.
No. It was the case of the absolutely brutal and completely horrific murder of Maddie Clifton.
And it's Joshua Phillips who is the vicious monster who did it to her.
Originally, this episode was episode 80, where we covered the case in a ton of detail.
But we were we were contacted actually by Maddie's older sister who I believe we mentioned in the episode because she's in this a lot, obviously.
Her older sister, Jessica Clifton, she contacted us to let us know that there were a few things that were, you know, could be misconstrued or were incorrect information about especially leading up to that day that the moment that Maddie was murdered. and things that Joshua had said in his court testimony about what happened that day. that the evidence just doesn't corroborate and that she has way better insight into this, obviously.
So she just wanted to reach out to us, tell us that some of that was wrong.
So we asked, would you... you know, would she be willing to chat with us?
Because we want to get her story out. This is her family.
This is her little sister. Jessica was 11 at the time this happened and Maddie was 8 years old.
So we wanted to make sure her story gets out there.
She gets to tell the world exactly what happened.
And the correct information. Exactly. First hand account. yeah and that's so she was gracious and amazing enough to speak to us Which to me is amazing that she can even speak about this because it's such a horrific thing.
But we had an amazing conversation with her.
She was so nice and so easy to talk to. Seriously.
And when I tell you that she is such like a beam of light.
Yeah. Like we talked to her over the phone and I immediately upon her answering the phone I felt comfortable.
Because obviously we were nervous to call her.
I mean, because you're nervous that this is dredging up a very, very traumatic memory.
Yeah. And this is so delicate. And this is somebody's sister.
This is the stuff that we always want to be so respectful about.
And knowing that we had got things wrong, it was weighing on me heavily.
And it was same. So I think I was a little nervous to talk to her because I was so nervous that I was that she was going to think I disrespected Maddie's memory.
And we would never want to do that to any family.
No. And luckily, that wasn't the case. It was like, she just wanted to clear up a few things.
And again, it was just like she really just put us at ease like right away.
She has such insight into this. I mean, she's so brave.
You're going to hear it because she was gracious enough to let us record the conversation so that we could release it for this episode.
So that's what we're going to be doing. We talked to her basically about what she saw as inconsistencies.
And then she gave us just some more insight into... the relationship that they had with Josh, which was a lot less than what was portrayed.
Yep. and just some things that weren't released initially.
And she let us know how she felt, which is something that you know, nobody can write about.
Nobody can just... Yeah, she's the only person that can say.
Yeah, she's the only one that can put us in her own you know head space during this whole thing because she had to sit originally and she'll say it in the interview um originally she didn't sit in on the trial because she was 11 years old but when she when the trial came back around a couple years ago she had to sit there Throughout the whole thing and listen to this whole thing be dredged up again when he was retried. because of the law that it was unconstitutional to sentence juvenile offenders to life without parole.
So he was getting a resentencing hearing.
He was trying to get out of prison. And she had to sit there and listen to the whole thing again.
She had to look at pictures. She had to see the whole thing.
That she didn't even know about. Details about her.
Right. Exactly. She had no idea because her parents at the time were being good parents and they weren't involving her in all the ins and outs of this and they knew that her knowing that you know what you're going to hear is i mean i think we mentioned it in the episode that josh had a Infatuation.
Really scary infatuation obsession. Like, some weird sexual obsession with Jessica.
Mm-hmm. And... Obviously, her parents were smart enough and good parents enough to not tell her that when she's 11.
Right, of course not. That's going to scare the shit out of her.
So she had to hear this in court, like she had no idea how much of her life was interconnected with his weird, crazy feelings. fantasies that she had no idea about so we just want to first and foremost say jessica thank you so so so much for talking to us this was amazing it was eye-opening it made me feel good to know that we're gonna get the story straight and it just made me feel good because i was like wow i really like jessica Yeah, same.
I was like, you're really easy to talk to.
Yeah, at the end I was like, I really want to talk to you again.
Like, can we just talk? uh so yeah she's really great um we're so glad to hear that you know she's doing so well yeah she is really just like remarkably well She's a pretty amazing person with what she's gone through and how she's come out of it.
So, you know, we just wanna high five her on that.
And one thing before we start showing you the recorded interview, we do have two small ads in this episode uh we just didn't want anyone to think that we were being like disrespectful putting ads In the interview I don't know why anybody would but we try to just nip these things in the bud before they become an issue.
Just try to make everybody happy. So we do have two ads in this episode, but, you know, they're short, they're quick.
You know they're coming because I gave you some new music, so... you know, enjoy.
So I hope you guys enjoy this interview with Jessica and without further ado, here it is.
Take it away, Jessica. I'm gonna just let you kind of like, you tell us. so while I was listening so the in the court proceedings kind of so Josh tells his story obviously a little different than what the evidence provides oh yeah I'm sure Yeah, you know, he made this whole story of it being accidental.
And to where she wanted to go over there and play and he accidentally hit her in the face.
There was no physical evidence, bruising, bone fractures. anything that suggested that she even got hit with a ball in her eye.
Um, and then he said, you know, when he hit her, he drug her from outside inside.
Yeah. Yeah. Stuff like that. So that was, I just wanted to make sure that everyone realized that The evidence, his story, was not there, basically discrediting his story.
Absolutely. I think there was one point where he said that they were playing in the backyard.
Now, I wish I could show you guys and I can't like go and take a picture of it.
Oh yeah. Imagine a backyard that is very not triangle, it's like a funky, it's a funky shape, pool in the backyard actually takes up the entire backyard and there are little patches of grass kind of in each corner of the So there's not enough room in his backyard to actually throw a baseball and hit it.
I mean unless kids play baseball standing an inch apart I mean it's not Yeah, that doesn't make sense at all.
No, like not at all. And I can definitely picture what you're saying, that the backyard is like basically an entire pool.
Yeah, so that doesn't make sense at all.
No, not at all. So there were just a lot of things in his story that the evidence just could not...
Yeah, definitely. upset me probably the most.
So, you know, how old are you guys? I'm Elena and I'm 34.
And this is Ash, I'm 23. Oh, there's a huge age gap.
Yeah. We got 10 years between us. Right.
So I'm 38. So, Elena, you can kind of understand Back then, it just wasn't that big of a deal to go outside and play without your mom or dad watching you.
I did it all the time. Exactly. I mean, we played Manhunt at midnight.
Yep. We're running around this neighborhood that's huge.
And, like, you can't do that now. No. No, not at all.
I have three kids, and I would never do it now, ever.
That is good. Yeah. And it was kind of a thing where it was my house and then our buddy Nick, who was Maddie's age, and that was Maddie's best friend, and then my buddy Jim. who was my age, always his name was justin he was always with us playing as well So, on the day all of this happened, Larry, who you guys are familiar with, who you were kind of looking to as a suspect, live next door to Jeff which is the furthest house down the road And it was kind of one of those things where if the five of us were out playing...
If Nick's parents were outside, they would kind of watch after us.
If Jeff's parents were outside, they would kind of watch.
You know what I mean? Larry's kids were older, they were out of the house, and he lived there with his mom, and he took care of his mom.
And so it was never like, it was more of a I'm an adult, I'm watching after the kids kind of thing.
But in the podcast, it said that it was her and Larry down the street.
That was not accurate. Okay, that's really good to know because I think I believe that was from the book.
I'll double check though, just to make sure.
But yeah, that that makes so much more sense.
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Nick, who was Maddie's age, eight, and Justin, who was... same age as Josh, was friends with Josh as well.
It was Nick, Justin, and Larry. So she went down there. with this.
Now the reason why Jeff wasn't outside, Jeff was sick.
So normally it would have been Nick, Justin, Maddie and Jess with Larry so it wasn't just I wanted everyone to make sure that, like, my parents weren't those weirdos that are like, yeah, go play with a 40-year-old.
No, I totally get that. Yeah. That makes so much more sense.
That definitely does. I'm really glad we were able to clear this up.
Yeah, for sure. so I just don't want everyone in the world to be like wow her parents are really dumb yeah no totally that's completely understandable So she goes out to play.
Now, I'm practicing piano, right? I had more homework than her.
She was a lot younger than I was. Yeah. She goes down and they're hitting golf balls.
And Larry was like, look, I don't have a lot of golf balls.
You kids need to find your own. Justin, the 14 year old, walks her down to my house. interrupts me playing the piano, doing homework, and I'm like, guys, I don't have time to look with you guys, you know what I mean?
You gotta let me do my stuff and then I can come out.
Right, exactly. And this is kind of a really sad aspect to the story as well.
So Justin, again, was one of our very, very close friends.
He got tired. I'm so sorry. I have to let the dog out.
Oh, no, don't worry. So when he comes down here with her, she was taking forever.
And he's like, hey, Maddie, I'm going to go back down the street. once you find one I will Ugh.
That hurts my heart. Yeah, I'm so sorry.
And if he had it just stayed, you know? Yeah, absolutely.
And I don't cry. I feel for him because he...
Sorry. No, you don't have to be sorry at all.
He was one of my very good friends. He's doing okay right now.
Oh, good. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. But the poor thing, he's just a mess.
Yeah People that world really close to so Yeah, it's like a ripple effect.
Yeah. And my hurt is no greater or less than my mom's, my dad's.
You know what I mean? Yeah. work in our own way and it's just so bad when someone goes downhill like that but um But yeah, so I just wanted everyone to realize that they were all down there, that he actually, you know, Justin actually walked her down here.
And then that's kind of how she ended up by herself walking back down the street, which, I mean, I'm standing outside right now looking at this.
And, um... Yeah, it's not like it's this long, long thing.
Right, like it's literally three houses away.
She should have been okay. Yeah. and I know, I know what happened.
I know, see, her and I at the time, and this is a lot of people don't know this, her and I at the time were Oh, okay.
You know what? I did read that. Yeah. Yeah.
We were good kids. We, you know, heard the word sex and we run to mommy and daddy.
Ooh, ooh, mommy's talking about sex. Yeah.
You know? Yeah. And they were like, you know, we don't want you hanging out with him.
So... i think and i know josh was um outside because of nick's grandma which is the house next door to josh's saw him outside And I know that she walked over there and said, hey, I'm looking for a golf ball.
Because she was so adamant that I was about to go. about to kick her out because I'm like, I gotta get out.
You're killing me. You're killing me. So, I know for a fact she walked over there. and asked him, and he was probably like, oh, I've got one inside the house. and it was no different than I mean we've been in there before yeah she wasn't supposed to hang out with him she was just looking for a gospel and that's how the luring obviously only him and God know that and her of course But that makes so much sense.
Yeah, so... And then for something, I have written Maddie's relationship with Josh, which...
Yes. Yes. All of that was not allowed to come out in the beginning because it wasn't on the trial because it didn't actually affect the murder.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's why I didn't read it until a lot later.
I remember initially hearing about this case and I never saw that.
And then I read it later and was like, wait a second.
Right, right, yeah. So I don't know, I don't really remember what that was about, our relationship with him, but...
The first thing that went missing was a cordless phone. which they ended up later finding in our backyard.
There's like a lot of woods in the backyard.
Cause we started getting like $500 foot Oh, my God.
That's bizarre. Super bizarre. Like, you know, my parents are going to be like 11-year-olds, 8-year-olds.
Probably not. Right. Um, it was just very random and we got rid of the cordless phone.
Um, uh, you know, we, we'd gotten a new one, whatever.
That's so scary. Oh, jeez. yeah you're not feeling super confident there There were... He had taken a staple gun and stapled staples in our furniture.
What? Stapled Maddie... Bed sheet and her bed.
What? Wow. Wow. Which is kind of where the relationship...
I think, aspect of him and I come into play.
Yeah. Where it wasn't really what everyone thought as a relationship. her it was more of i guess the way he looked at me And let me just tell you what, I didn't know anything about that, okay?
I'm 11 years old. The last thing these people want to do is tell me this and freak me out.
During the re-sentencing hearings. Two years ago, I was able to sit in the courtroom the whole time.
When, during the murder trial, I was 11 years old, I was not old enough to sit through all of Oh, my. me and I'm like turning red and freaking out and like I just didn't really have a clue and it's like super slap in the face because I had no idea.
Yeah, that must have been insane to hear, like for the first time so many years later.
Wow. Wow. Yeah. So there was no... And there was no relationship, obviously, between the two of us, but there was some sexual...
Yeah. Some kind of obsession going on here.
Exactly, exactly. And maybe, you know, I was older.
Yeah. I was 11, she was 8, maybe there was more of a traction to it, whatever.
So if it were me walking out the door first, I'm sure it would have been me.
Oh, that's awesome. Oh, scary thing. It really is.
So yeah, so there was no, I just wanted to clarify that there wasn't an odd relationship between the two of them.
We were all friends. We play together almost every day for a little over a year.
Wow, that's really, that's like shocking to hear.
Because it's like, knowing what he is, it's like, wow.
Right. That somebody can just hide it like that.
Yeah, yeah, it's scary. Well, I mean, you know, and I go back to, you know, him hiding.
I went and knocked on his door that first night and I hung out with him every day during Oh my gosh.
That's awful. Yeah. Wow. That's so haunting.
Yeah, like he was just able to push it down like that and just put up a facade.
Right. That's really scary. Oh, that just... My mind can't even, like, bend to fathom that.
I can't. And it's so crazy because I remember so much.
And then afterwards, I don't remember anything at all.
Yeah, that makes sense. Life becomes a blur.
Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's like just straight up trauma.
I was going to say you were so traumatized by everything.
It makes perfect sense. so long to grieve.
Yeah. Just because my parents, you know, like, they were trying to hold themselves together, let alone a marriage, let alone raising another child.
Yeah. And they were not... to keep themselves together.
And I was like, if I'm falling apart... I really didn't grieve until a few years after she passed away. just because I tried to stay so strong for my parents.
And that was unnatural. That was definitely not my choice.
But that was really amazing of you to think of somebody else in that situation.
It really is. And especially at your age at the time that it happened, that's like really impressive that you were mature enough to look at it that way.
Yeah. Wow. And then that was, I think that was the end because then the last thing I wrote was talking about how our 14-year-old friend as well walked her back down here.
Oh yeah, okay. So that was the end of my notes.
But other than that, it was beautiful. oh good oh good we're so glad to hear that makes me so happy because i was like oh god the last thing i would ever want to do is like disrespect yeah we would never want their families Oh, that's awesome.
And so every podcast I listen to, I'm like, I kind of cringe when I come to an episode because I'm like, oh gosh, is this about us?
Yeah. Oh, I can't imagine that. Well, I mean, thank you so much for telling us all of this because this is the stuff we want.
Like we want to let people know Like, what's actually happened.
Yeah, we want to get the real story out there, you know.
Right. See, I don't think that's the thing.
That's what's so scary about stuff like that.
Yeah. Yeah, that's frustrating, because it does make it seem like she was just hanging out with this 40-year-old guy.
It's like, what? and then that's when people got to the whole what is wrong with her parents exactly Yeah, and that's unfair.
So I'm so, so glad that we were able to talk to you.
Seriously. No, thank you. Seriously. Do you mind if I ask you...
Like, what were your thoughts about that whole resentencing thing that they wanted to do for juvenile offenders?
So I was very aware of the law before a lot of people because I was working at the state attorney's office.
At the time that all of that was going on, and I was working on... actually a case here in Jacksonville.
I don't know if you're familiar. It was two boys that just quote unquote wanted to know what it would feel Oh yes, I do know that one.
17 and 18 years old and they um shot um one of their ex-girlfriends in the face um leaving you know leaving school yep um And, you know, I worked on a lot of big profile pieces like that.
And that was one of the cases too that came back up.
And you know, I just don't. So are you familiar with the actual like what the law, why they changed it and what case law they changed it on?
No, that was actually... I was kind of hoping that you had some insight on that, because I know a very generalized version of the law that they... basically thought it was wrong to sentence juvenile offenders to life without parole because of the like you know developmental issues And that's as far as I kind of know about it.
So I'm actually really glad that you have more insight about it.
Okay. Yeah, so the actual case, and I don't know, I have to look it up, I have to Google it, but it was about... two boys acting together and it's, you know, a basic Um, I drive you to the murder.
You murder someone. I drive you home. I am an accomplice to murder.
They catch you, the murderer, and they're like, listen, if you tell on your buddy, we'll give you Oh, okay.
So, you know, like a plea, or not a plea deal, a... Like a bargain.
Like a bargain, yes. Yeah. Don't worry.
So that is what it is kind of about. because the one case that it did happen to they were kids and they were young and the guy that actually would be a complex in America um She wasn't the one that actually got more time. as a juvenile and was tried as an adult.
And so in that case, obviously you look at it and you go, okay, In that case, he should have gotten parole.
Yeah. He wasn't even the one that picked up the gun and shot the guy.
Yeah, that seems like a totally different situation.
Exactly. And so during the resentencing trial, you guys know, I'm pretty sure, that it's up to the judge's discretion. yeah yeah yeah right so so obviously in our case the judge went over that whole um the case law on it and said Yep.
It was solely you. Yeah, it just doesn't apply. it doesn't apply at all and what you did is so heinous and so wrong and the fact that he could Right.
Oh, at so many points. Twice. yeah so it's like how can i like you you do not deserve pearl i totally agree me too Yeah, I did just read an article about that.
So when he appeals it, are you guys going to have to be dragged in there again?
No. So I'm not actually quite sure. how the appeal process goes with that because before this law came about he was appealing what is called a 3850
You guys may be familiar with it. It's when they feel like they were not defended properly.
So they can list a certain amount of, they can list 50 things that they wanted to, issues, problems that they had with their trial.
And the judge can look at all 50 and go, none of these are worth my time.
None of this would have changed the outcome.
Um, of the case. And so I'm going to throw it out or he can be like, okay, I want to listen to two, four, 17 and 24. couple things that he was arguing saying that you know he didn't get a fair trial so the time that this law was coming out, that's what he was, um, that And they ended up throwing that out because he obviously had a better shot at this. juvenile you know it's unconstitutional for juveniles to get life in prison yeah yeah definitely They went that route.
So I didn't know that he could even appeal this.
I thought that he was going to go back to...
Yeah. And not this decision with the response thing, which I think is kind of weird.
Yeah, definitely. I didn't even know they could appeal that, to be honest.
But once the judge made that decision...
I mean, what is you really going to prove at this point?
Right. It's like appealing an appeal. Yeah.
It's still the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
But it's like, okay, sure. Yeah, exactly.
But yes, we will get drug into it. The scary thing about that 3850, though, is let's say if a judge decides to hear those thing and decide that, I mean, that could go back to an entire new Oh man, that is really scary.
But you also got to think about it. He was fighting that 3850 for what, like...
Yeah. Right. And they didn't even get it done in that amount of time.
Yeah, so to me, it's like, what can you really do at this point?
Exactly. Exactly. So I think... Thank goodness for my parents' sake.
I feel like we won't have to go back. I'm hoping for my sake I won't either because that was the longest four days.
Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe you can't. I sat in there because I had to know.
I had to see because I felt like... I had missed so much and there was so much I didn't know.
And it kind of like bothered me. Yeah. But in the same sense, it freaked me the fuck out.
Oh, I can't even imagine. Because before that, it's probably... I can understand why you would want to sit there because it's like... your mind is probably filling in the blanks of things that you didn't know.
So it's like, we might as well see the truth so I can just get rid of what my brain is forming, you know?
Yeah. It's just a strange feeling and it's not anything.
Yeah, definitely. I can definitely understand that.
Would you stop hollering at me? Do you hear him?
I do. You know, and it also changed my perspective on a lot of things.
I think there was at one point, so I don't know if you also read the iRotate. him while he was in prison?
No, I didn't read that. Yeah. So, um, Again, I think it was one of those things where, like, I wasn't in the – I wasn't at the trial only when I had to testify.
There were so many unanswered things and like in my head I just had to piece it all together.
And so I wrote him and I asked him if I could actually sit down and speak with him.
And, yeah, it was hard. But so they can accept you or deny you in prison. it's not like jail you can just show up and see them um So he wrote me back and he said he wouldn't deny me that he would like to talk to me.
And I had to fill out this visitation form.
I filled out the visitation form and I didn't really hear anything back.
And this was in 2008. Okay. It was 10 years after.
So I ended up writing him back after like a month or so because I never heard back from him.
And that was when he had hired the attorney he has now. and started the appeal process with the 3850.
And he was like, my attorney doesn't think it's a good idea.
I just want to let you know that it's not me saying I don't want you to come.
And I don't want to talk to you. That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying the attorney thinks it's not a good idea right now. obviously she said something stupid or whatever yeah exactly yeah well you know it's all recorded so um So I took it as, that's fine.
I said that was fine. And so during the resenting hearing, I can't even begin to describe because I had to get up twice on the stand during the resentencing hearing.
And I remember thinking afterwards, thank God I did not go talk to him.
Oh, God. Yeah. It was the most nerve wracking.
You know, there's a million cameras on you and there's people watching you and there's a judge and attorneys and him just I can't even imagine that.
I mean, I feel like I blacked out. I don't know.
Yeah, seriously. you know, it was just the most nerve wracking thing Oh, yeah.
It was something like I'd never experienced before in my life, and I remember just feeling a huge rush of... empathy towards my parents for sitting through an entire, you know, 40 murder Oh, yeah, and it's like, as a parent myself, just reading this made me, like, I felt nauseous, like, for your parents.
Because I literally cannot fathom what they went through.
Oh yeah, I'm sure. It's crazy. My mom, she's not really...
She's struggled a lot. She's always struggled a lot mentally.
So her and I don't have the best relationship.
We talk like... A little bit. But my dad and I are really close.
Oh, good. That's awesome. And, you know, they split when I was 14, three years after my sister died.
They were happily married for 25 years. Oh, wow.
And, I mean, they got married at 21 and didn't start having kids until they were 30. so you know they'd still be together obviously today but it just shows what that does Yeah, and everyone grieves differently, men versus women.
Yeah. My dad was like, look, we have another daughter to take care of, and my mom just was drowning. and get out of it.
And she still is like that. So I'm a very positive, uplifting.
I love that. Thank you. It comes out when you talk to me.
It really does. Like, immediately. But I just, and I wish she were, you know, took it differently, but I just, I can't have that woe is me mentality.
And I want to have that. that also to you know to still bring awareness to everyone but not constantly No.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because one of the things I was thinking about was sitting there.
And this is such a different scenario, because I always think of how the families have to sit in the courtroom with this monster who did this to their loved one.
And then in your situation, this is someone that you were friends with initially.
So it's like, I mean, it's an even weirder like, you know, like tension there because it's like we were once friends and now you're this...
You've shown to be this evil monster. It must have been such a weird feeling.
Yeah, cuz you're like familiar with him, but you're not I
Exactly. Well, it wasn't like he was a part of our little group.
I mean, I'm still best friends with Jeff, the one that lives a couple doors down.
I love that. That's awesome. Wow, that's so rare.
I told him, I said, I'm not going to make you wear a dress.
But you have to stand on my side when I get married.
I love that. It's a bridesman. Man of honor.
I love that. So, yeah, it's just, you know, it changed a lot, but it's nice to have.
It's nice to have those friends that are so close.
I mean, we only hung out for like, I mean, it was a year and a half.
That's still a long time. That's still enough to be like, dude, I thought you were my friend.
Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you're kids.
Right. Yeah, especially as a child. Yeah.
I mean, you're not children. You're not, you know, you're so innocent and pure.
Yeah. Like, you're not even supposed to know about any of this kind of thing.
Yeah, he just pulled everybody into that dark world with him.
Well, we seriously can't tell you enough how much we appreciate you talking to us because I know this must be so hard to talk about no matter how long it's been.
Mm-hmm. And everything you've told us is so great because I want people to know this stuff.
Like this is the stuff that we really want people to know.
It's so important. Because I think that's the way to honor Maddie is making sure that her story is told correctly and to as many people as can hear it.
100%. I definitely agree. Thank you guys so much.
I really appreciate y'all calling me and asking me to do this.
And like I said, I'm... I don't really know what to do about the book.
Maybe just reach out to the author. I don't know how that kind of stuff works. i know i don't either yeah and it's just so i mean it goes to show how one detail makes a story completely different yeah Yeah.
I'm going to try to get this out very quickly, like tomorrow if I can.
Yeah, because I figure it's like I'm excited to get it out, so I'll be working on it tonight.
And I'll let you know as soon as I post it.
All right. Awesome. Thank you so, so much.
And if you ever want to reach out again, feel free to, because we loved talking to you.
We really did. Thank you. Hopefully we'll talk to you again.
Yeah, sounds good. I'll be looking to hear from you.
Awesome. Thank you so much. All right, ladies. have a good night you too thank you thanks bye bye So that was our discussion with Jessica.
We hope you enjoyed it. We really hope you enjoyed it.
Hopefully it was as insightful for you as it was for us.
Yeah, and hopefully it made you feel like you have a better look into this case that there's a lot of misconstrued information about.
And again, thank you so much to Jessica for talking to us.
Yeah, a million thanks. We can't thank her enough.
Seriously, she's great. And we're so, so grateful for her. talking to us about this because it's really brave for sure so guys we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird Bye.
See you later guys. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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