Many of the American tech companies may not want to admit this, but basically that the tick -tock algorithms and the design and the features of the apps, it's just superior to their products.
If we ban tick -tock, what's going to happen to Twitter?
Then what's going to happen to other platforms.
You can see that that's what's going to happen here.
It's going to set the precedent, and whatever the precedent is, everybody's going to copy that.
I think he's changed his course with regards to TikTok because it was one of the things that got him in my opinion elected, and that's what he said as well.
The chat lounge unpacks views and opinions on hot issues in a more casual way.
The fate of TikTok hands in the balance once again.
The popular video sharing app used by 170 million Americans went dark last Saturday, just before a Federal law was set to take effect.
US President Donald Trump signed an executive order on Monday, just hours after his wear -in, allowing TikTok to continue operating for 75 days.
Why did Trump bring TikTok back?
What is the fate of TikTok in America after a 75 -day extension?
To discuss these questions and more, I am joined by Wan Hao Lan, a research assistant at the Asia Society Policy Institute Center for China Analysis.
Edward Liman, a legal affairs commentator and managing director of Liman Li and Hsu Lao Firm, and Dr. Digby Ren, an external relations advisor to the Royal Academy of Cambodia.
Welcome to the chat.
So how land TikTok was supposed to be banned in the US on January 19th under the federal law, however on Monday, January 20th, local time, President Donald Trump signed an executive order allowing it to continue operating for 75 days.
What does this 75 -day extension mean for TikTok?
Okay, so yes, so I think the 75 days is sort of very important for the current fate of TikTok, as it means a sort of a little blessing for both TikTok and the users on TikTok and give basically every policy holders sometimes just think about the path forward.
As in obviously that for TikTok to continue to operate under this new executive order within the US market, this is the most important things for many daily users and also the merchants that sells stuff on the TikTok shops, which is I think most evident to my sister as she was worrying about this on Sunday morning and asking daily, when is TikTok coming back and they came back after Trump made clear that he will sign executive order giving extension.
But I also think just this one also showcased that the 75 days is something that both, I think when the shutdown happens, it sort of gives the policymakers, especially members of Congress, a clear sense of what the consequences of these legislations were.
I think that clearly, that policy thinkers, when they pass the ban, didn't think clearly about the consequences of the legislation.
It is interesting to see how maybe legislator may change their positions or modify their positions coming forward in the next 75 days.
But it's also interesting that I think the Oracle general counsels that their legal department took the executive order at face value and reinstated TikTok service, which I think they still have a significant liability attached to it given the law is still extending.
Hmm. Atward. If we look at the ownership structure of Baydance TikTok's parent company, about 60 % of Baydance is owned by global investors such as Carlyle Group, General Atlantic and Susquehanna International Group.
Well, 20 % is owned by the founder of the company, Zhang Yiming, and another 20 % is owned by employees around the world, including over 7 ,000 U .S.
based employees. Also, it's interesting to note that three of the companies five board members are Americans.
Does this structure already comply with the U .S.
sale or ban laws, 20 % foreign ownership limits?
Ted. Yeah. Um, the quick answer is, is, it does not.
I mean, and I, you know, I guess I'm, I'm showing my age here, but for example, in media companies and a person that might be recognizable or not a guy called Rupert Murdoch, who owns Newscorp.
And then he wanted to, this is a million years ago, but he wanted to purchase, um, Wall Street Journal and a number of other media outlets in the United States.
And I think he, and Fox was another, was one of those as well.
And he had actually changed his citizenship from Australian to the to US.
And so I just mentioned that in passing.
But the sailor ban with regards to 20 % ownership isn't really met legally, even outlining the things you just talked about.
Because the foreign governments are entities are theoretically access can access or misuse what what the Congress or Mr. Trump or the executive order has deemed as sensitive information.
You know, they've got this cap of 20%.
So we've got just breaking down what you said.
So you get 60 % of Bight Dance is owned by global investors.
That's a Carlyle group, General Atlantic, uh, Susquehanna International, like you had mentioned.
Now the question is we don't really know how that's held.
We have no idea. I mean, I don't know off the top of my head without looking at the public as to what that is, but that may or may not be in the United States, it might be held by a Caymans company.
It might be held by these special purpose vehicles.
So, I mean, somebody can talk about it in theory, but how it is in practice is a different thing.
So Carlisle Group was an American company, of course, and these other ones are American companies that they mentioned, but they might hold it in an offshore structure, which probably they would do is a tax advantage.
And so that might not meet the the thing the tacit rules.
So 20 % of Baitansa is owned by John Yee Ming.
As you said, the company's founder, he's a Chinese national.
So that is a, is a problem right there.
It doesn't meet the test.
So the remaining 20 % like you said is, is owned by the 7000, by different employees, yes in the United States.
Yeah, so it doesn't really the answer to that question is, it doesn't probably meet those standards.
Digby, President Donald Trump.
He says that he wants the US to have 50 % ownership of TikTok in a joint venture.
Would you make up Trump's proposal?
And who do you think might be the potential buyers interested in purchasing a stake in a company?
As Edward has just pointed out, the ownership structure is already quite complicated, and that's got to be understood completely before anything can go be put forward.
But look, joint ventures I think are an obvious way to go for the impasse arises in technology transfer between nations, so between the US and China for example, it's clear that for example, CATL and BYD and other big Chinese companies, they're going to have to do technology transfers and joint ventures in the future, I think that's fairly clear and this may be a model if they can get a good model for joint venture on this.
It might then also go back the other way for Facebook and other tech companies in America.
So, look, it's going to be very important, but look, basically a 50 -50 split, I think is pretty well impossible.
It's going to be a joint venture, but how that would be worked out is going to be very complex, as Edward has pointed out, and I can't see that happening very, very quickly, but I think it can happen, and I think there's definitely a will in the states to make that happen and I think there's an understanding, a deeper understanding by people involved in politics in government, in tech that this is going to be an important case globally for how the tech industry settles globally because right now TikTok is the shining example 10 Cent of course is not as popular overseas but you know that's platform
-based and where it's going to of course is content creation and that's what TikTok really does is a platform for content creation.
Power is passing to content creators.
So I think the concentration on who owns the platforms is going to become less important and that's why this deal is going to I think set a standard for that going forward.
Pretty well every government now recognises this and looks at this as being a real thing.
So that's national security at a very base level.
and so that's always going to be part of the deal.
That the data centers and all the hosting, everything has to be held in the country in which it's operating and that's complex. That is the case now.
In America, like users' data are stored in America and here in Asia is mostly stored in Singapore.
So TikTok has been doing that already.
Yeah, yeah. So they're going to have to do more you know, to meet any kind of a 50 -50 arrangement, they're going to have to do much more.
And, of course, the algorithm, you know, that's what everybody wanted to crack originally was to crack the TikTok algorithm.
How could they be so successful, right?
Yeah. Let me come to you, Haolan.
We talked about the US dance, and in response to that, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Mao Ning said that actions such as the operation and acquisition of businesses should be independently decided by companies in accordance with market principles.
And also, she says, if it involves Chinese companies, Chinese laws and regulations should be observed.
In your view, would such a joint venture comply with Chinese laws and regulations?
So, I think it's hard to say on the face value.
It depends on what format of the joint ventures and what exactly goes into a potential deal between Tiktok and its potential buyers.
So I think it's pretty clear that the algorithm which operates the Tiktok, which is, I think, the backbone of how Tiktok is operating in America, which is designed by ByteDense and they have intellectual property over it, is covered by the export control law under current Chinese law.
and that requires government approval on any such actions.
But I think as the foreign ministry was very clear that it would not be necessary the biggest problem as long as the transaction is in line with market practice and its fair and square.
And as Dick was talking about this is going to be a very important case study for future Chinese companies in overseas and potentially other American tech companies in China.
So whether it's legal or of it's not necessarily the biggest concern, I think, at this point.
It depends on how and how the actual eventual deal, if there is one, are going to look like.
And that inevitably probably be a much more political question than a legal question in this area.
The Chat Lounge unpacks views and opinions on hot issues in a more casual way.
Edward, from a legal perspective, do you think the 50 % US ownership of TikTok complies with China's laws and regulations?
You know, ByteDance is a Chinese enterprise and then they've got to ask for approval before they make, or divest, or they there's some way, shape or form that they are going to the ownership in some way shape or form to another company that's foreign invested.
All right, so that's the given under the new foreign, you know, the regulatory environment under foreign invested enterprises and technology enterprises and, you know, there have been a whole bunch of things that have gone into play in place since, you know, since the ByteDance and TikTok came into existence in the United States.
So like I said, they've updated the foreign investment law, They've updated the data security law, since ByteDance went into the United States.
They've updated the cyber security law that was in 2017 and data security 2021.
So, what I find ironic, I mean, going back to the last question is that Mr. Trump has said, well, maybe, and I think, you know, I saw him say this, so it's not as if this is second or third -hand.
So he said, maybe the United States government will buy 50%.
I think what he's doing here is the art of the deal.
he's actually building a foundational, you know, kind of a bookend and saying that's a number that he would be comfortable with.
I think the United States government has no business being in any kind of business like this anyway, but I mean, so I find it curious that Mr. Trump who's, you know, coming from capitalism should say something like the US government should maybe take 50 % of the ownership.
And then they said, well how would you do that?
And he was kind of faded off a little bit with that.
Maybe it would be done through private enterprise or not, but that was a follow up question by the reporter.
And then we have a comment here by the Chinese government saying this should be left up to market forces and this should be left independently to companies.
I don't disagree, which is the exact opposite which most people would think would be the, hey, we're involved here, we're the people controlling it.
But they're saying exactly the opposite, this is up to market forces and this is up to the individual companies themselves.
I think that both of these things are, you don't have to be perfect to be good.
I don't think you have to, that this is necessarily sort of a finite situation.
The question is whether it can be loose enough to follow the laws, policies, and regulations of the People's Republic of China, especially with regards to data security and with regards smarts to the United States and CFIUS, which is this group that discusses who can own foreign American assets.
And we didn't necessarily talk about the potential tech giants who were interested in buying it on the last question, which would be like Microsoft, Oracle, Facebook -again, Carlisle could take a bigger stake.
General Atlantic, Susquehanna, or Walmart even, or Comcast would be a potential partner.
So these guys would have to go through some kind of, if it was any one of them, they would have to go through some sort of a, you know, a vetting process by the United States government themselves.
For example, Comcast owns a bunch of stuff in media already.
And would this make them into some kind of monopoly or oligarchy?
Same with Oracle and some and Meta and these other things.
So I, there's a whole bunch of legal hurdles that need to be met.
Whether China is going to be the biggest obstacle to this, I would say no, they would not be.
On the books, it says that China has some legal say on foreign investment that is done by Chinese companies abroad and there is data in cybersecurity questions that need to be considered.
That would be Chinese laws policies and regulations which would impede this in some way, shape, or form.
But I don't see that that is a genuine concern.
And obviously, the Chinese government has come out and said, it's not.
Now that doesn't mean they speak all with one voice.
But I think legally, they've got some issues.
But I think they can get through those points.
Digby, if we look at previous examples like in Indonesia, TikTok previously faced obstacles over there, but later resumed operations.
So do you think that solution in Indonesia could be applied to the case in America?
So Tiktok basically, you know, there was a company in Indonesia so what was the name of that?
I think it's called go to and They basically transport and online delivery transport shopping And so yeah, it worked out quite well I mean, obviously the government was quite flexible about this and so that company go to was deeply in debt, so ByteDance, TikTok provided capital, and so basically it was, you know, merged the two companies, the company with the capital shortfall got their capital, and the ownership adjustment was made to suit the Indonesian government's requirements.
So that worked out quite well, but the structure, the ownership structure, was not nearly as difficult as it's going to be in the United States, as Edmund has just sort of pointed out, the complexity of that.
So yeah, look, the Indonesian model is actually quite a good one, but then now you got to find them.
You got to find the partner in the United States for TikTok, and I think it's pretty clear that TikTok management needs to stay in place because they know how to run this business.
You know, they're not just going to hand over the management, and as as other guests just pointed out, Chinese laws are going to cover the transfer of technology as well, so I think it's more complex than the Indonesian model.
Definitely. It's just that the Indonesian model, as Digby rightly pointed out, had to do with content moderation.
I mean, there were some financial issues as well.
At least that's what they were claiming.
And then risk of inappropriate content being accessible to minors.
That was a question there.
The US is kind of more focused on national security and data privacy concern, specifically.
I mean I'm not saying there's not things to learn.
and there are definitely things to learn.
And I think it's part of what should be considered, but their solution was centered on control filters while the US issue is dealing with so -called political issues.
And then, you know, Indonesia's got a civil law, which China has a civil law too, which means there's a law for everything as kind of form over function rather than function over form.
Common law is based on case precedent.
And so it isn't necessarily built, which means, you know, they say that gay marriage is okay.
That means that everyone in Kentucky to Iowa, the Clerk's office can give out marriage certificates and people understand that.
And that can happen in a day.
In a civil law place like Indonesia, it could also happen in a day, but trying to implement that countrywide might be more difficult.
And that being said, like I said, there's so many ironies with this particular thing, is Mr. Trump with these executive orders, he is just, this is a stopgap.
And this is, you know, we have, which is unique in the world, really, which is a balance of three.
You know, it's a check and balance of the judicial system, the legislative system and the executive system.
So the executive is overriding, essentially, the judicial system.
It's overriding the congressional with these orders.
And Mr. Trump Trump is not the only one to blame.
I mean, Mr. Biden on the first day that he stepped into office immediately overturned every single thing of the executive orders Mr. Trump had in place before that.
So it's not... And then that has happened with various...
Not with such pomp and circumstance like we have here.
But it is... It's an unusual situation, because you're not talking to legislatures, you're not talking to the court.
The Supreme Court did make a decision.
the Supreme Court is infallible, because they're final, they're not final, because they're infallible, but they made a decision to shut down on January 19th to shut ByteDance down at TikTok, and they did it.
And so then it was, to the best of my knowledge, at least what I've seen in the media, and then they turned it back on when Mr. Trump signed an executive order saying we'll give you 75 more days.
And then that allowed, as a previous guest also said, that Oracle to be able to put that on their platform and not, they're worried about legal liability, which is astronomical and uninsurable and detrimental to someone's business.
This is, you're playing at very large stakes and I think, you know, everyone's got their eyes on it in a business sense, as well as a political sense, as well as a technology sense with the algorithms and AI and all this other kind of thing that's becoming much more important.
And, Helene, a technical question, even if Biden agrees to sell shares and reach a joint venture agreement with the U .S., but we're talking about 75 days.
Do you think that would be enough time for the company to amend the divestiture law, like considering, you know, than regulatory negotiations?
So I think that what you're talking about is seven five days to reach and complete the process.
My answer is probably no, given that the any deals involving selling or making a joint venture involving TikTok, a very popular software with 170 million of users within the U .S.
alone, is going to take a very long time to sort it out all the details, I think as Lee -Man and Digby were talking about, the complexacy, equity structure of ByteDance.
And potentially, they have to create maybe a carve out, a take -alog, global business that only covers the US.
And all those data screening and the service changing will require substantial times.
And on top of that, you have to find the appropriate buyers.
And I guess also the approval of the Chinese in terms of the legal process, and also definitely seek approval from the US government as they will have to satisfy the full divestiture requirements layout by the take it up and legislations so I think the more likely possibility if there's going to be arrangement coming is that it will either show substantial progress which enable the Trump administration to make determination at least that the full divestiture is being met.
That's part of the provision of the the law It says the president can determine that the app or the application concerns no longer controlled by a foreign adversary so quote -unquote speaking an intra -agency process.
The law isn't really specific on the extent what intra -agency process is, but it could seems possible that president could make a determination given if there's substantial progress.
And also, the United States Congress has an entirely different conversation here as they they are the initiator of this TikTok ban, was the legislation they passed in last April.
And it is possible, if there's substantial progress made, I think, that there'll be a congressional extension or even just maybe a stay of the current ban.
And then something that the Senate Democrats, leader Schumer, minority leader Schumer, was trying to bring before the transition power, as they realized that TikTok was about to be shut down on the 19th.
So I think that's entirely possible, As though I think it's hard to say that whether Congress can act fast or act slowly, given that there will be significant oppositions to any attempt by many of the hard -line national security driven conservatives and liberals.
So going back to the initial question, think no, so there will be something some new arrangement probably in the legislative area maybe in the presidential executive orders, not an executive order that's also possible.
At work, it's very interesting to see the change of attitude from President Donald Trump.
We know in 2020, he proposed an order to ban off TikTok citing national security concerns.
But last year, during the U .S.
election, as presidential candidates, he changed his dance on TikTok.
So why do you think Trump reversed his position on banning the app?
You know, I mean, I think part of it is based on his age.
78 years old and probably didn't have as much familiarity with apps and with these types of things.
Now, he won, I don't know, 36 percent, or he had a 36 percent bump in young people voting for him from the previous election to this election, and part of that was because of TikTok, and he said it himself, I mean so I'm not even, this is directly from the source, so that he was the one who said I think we should take a second look at it.
I think it's interesting because he's changed his mind with regards to what it was.
And I think a lot of it had to do with his son Barron, who is 18 years old and he's 78.
So 60 years age gap between the two of them.
And his son was integral in getting him on platforms like TikTok, to be able to increase those, that generation of young voters, youngest voters if you will, that are 18 and above into the 18 to 25 demographic, which is very hard.
or 30 year old democratic graphic to get them to vote at all.
That was maybe integral in getting he took a lot more advantage of those type of TikTok than I think Mrs. Harris did but I think that the other thing is, is that I think he thinks there's a way and I'm not sure he's a tech person but I would, no he's not a tech person, I think he thinks there's a way to be able to carve this up do it safely.
I'm not so convinced that there is, I mean it in for everybody side whether that's your on China's side or on businesses side or your side of the United States but I think it's a very difficult time.
I'm going back to the timeline I mean 75 days is not going to get it through the legislative process.
75 days could be done like we're talking about with the executive which can extend stuff and then if people are the legislator or legislature is upset about it then and they can certainly legislate some stuff.
Somebody can start a court case, which, I mean, they've already done with regards to everything that Mr. Trump is, not everything, but just about everything he signed off on.
So just to get back to the question here is I think he's changed his course with regards to tiktok because it was one of the things that got him in my opinion elected, and that's what he said as well.
So I think he thinks that there's some value in it, And I think that legacy media is falling off in the United States for a whole bunch of reasons, perhaps self -inflicted, and this may be the wave of the future, but you've got to take both a go to with the bad.
And so it reflects kind of a political pragmatism Mr. Trump has.
And the evolving geopolitical realities and the electoral calculations, because he's got 2022, I'm sorry, 2027, where are we, coming up with a new round of elections that will be for the Congress in the midterms, what they call, and usually that's when the party that won the general election winds up taking a bath and there's a movement.
So a very small majority in the House, very small majority in the Senate in which allows him to have control of Congress, and I think he thinks TikTok might be helpful for these guys and for the Republican party.
You're listening to the chat lounge.
We've been discussing the latest developments with TikTok in the US.
Coming up, we will examine the best and worst possible outcomes for TikTok in America after the 75 -day extension.
Stay with us. for heated sports discussions, covering events that are happening in China and around the world.
Welcome back. You're listening to the chat lounge.
Let's continue our discussion.
Digby, if after 75 days no agreement is reached between the company and also the U .S.
government, what do you think are the chances of TikToks being banned in America?
Well, clearly the trend is to not ban it, because in an interview, Elon Musk did an interview about a week ago, and in that interview he said, one of the key emphasis for the Trump campaign has been freedom of speech and the First Amendment, and they've been supporting that really clearly.
And there's reasons for that, because obviously, they've changed the LGBTQ standing for government, for example, so they've got to offset that with something else.
I think the First Amendment is one of those things.
But then he said, well, look, if we ban TikTok, what's going to happen to Twitter?
Then what's going to happen to other platforms?
You see, he can see that that's what's going to happen here.
It's going to set the precedent and whatever the precedent is, everybody's going to copy that.
It's going to set a new standard.
And the fear of course is if you ban something like TikTok.
Well, then what's to stop every country in the world saying, oh, well, we'll just do that to Facebook.
We'll just do that to Twitter.
We'll just do that to somebody else.
I think that's a clear red flag for everybody.
So the best solution here is 75 days.
I agree with everybody.
It's not going to be long enough.
But I don't think the TikTok is going to be closed.
What's going to happen is it'll be extended until they can get to an agreement that works and that TikTok is functioning.
The Republicans had the best showing with youth groups so 18 to 25, 18 to - I'd even stretch that 18 to 34 but the key audience group is 18 to 24.
They got a 37 % youth vote.
I mean, that's fantastic.
That's the best they've ever had so they're not going to give up.
Even though the 75 days is not long enough, they're not going to give up on that.
They realize it's a precedent.
they realized that it's going to set the standard globally, so I don't think it's going to happen.
I think that TikTok will be resurrected but in a new functionality.
And then I think we'll see a wave of techno -nationalism going through BRICS countries, for example, they're going to be looking very closely at the American tech monopolies, Microsoft, all those companies, Facebook, Tesla and everything else, they're going to be looking at that and saying, Okay, what about social media?
What about platforms of all kinds?
Shouldn't they be joint ventures?
And I think that's you're going to see a wave of this thing happening for the next two years, three years.
How long you're in America, we know how popular TikTok is over there.
And it has 170 million users and plays a positive role in boosting US employment and consumption.
So even though as As Digby and Edward said, there is little chance for TikTok to be banned in America, but if that happens, how would the ban on TikTok impact the US economy, especially for small and medium sized businesses, influencers and individuals who rely on the platform for their livelihood?
Yes, of course TikTok is becoming what they call a phenomenon on the social media app, and I think the ecosystem of any social media with an ecosystem, not just necessarily just all the business side, but also just the sheer size of the users, 170 million of them will have some significant financial impact on the economy and all the ad revenues and all these content creators that have been using tech talk as a livelihood, would likely go away if tech talk is firmly banned.
So, as what I think Digger was talking about, it's very unlikely that TikTok will go dark.
It will be some sort of arrangement going, but we don't know what's going to happen.
Still, US economies are such big and complex economic entities, you can't really say that TikTok, everything will fall apart.
But for, I think, seven million people who has been using TikTok as part of their livelihood, including all those fast -growing e -commerce sites and stores on TikTok shop.
Which has been part of the biggest growth, I think, in the new e -commerce emergence in e -commerce in America in the past two years.
And a lot of these merchants rely heavily on TikTok shops, and their business will obviously be impacted significantly.
And most of them are small and medium size business, so they're not the super true across national big companies.
place, and that is all going to have, I think, put much more pressures on the fragile state of the economy.
President Trump has been promising to restore, because as he was talking about the American economy was suffering under Joe Biden, and given that he is trying to focus exclusively on making America great again in the second term, that wouldn't be a great economic outlook.
And of course, there are political reasons, I think, as Lehman was talking about, as well.
So, it's going to have a significant impact, but we can't say that it's going to have earth -shattering changes.
Edward, If Tiktok is forced into a joint venture, what kind of precedent would that set?
For example, could other countries follow the US lead and ban TikTok in the same way?
And at the same time, could these countries use the same reasoning, the national security concern to ban U .S -owned social media platforms like ads, like YouTube, Facebook in their own countries?
Yeah, I mean, right, I think it could escalate things as you've rightly pointed out and the other guests have talked about or, you know, is it possible after 75 days that the TikTok, you know, a deal won't get done and it goes dark.
It went dark already apparently before and it could go dark again.
Let me just say, the end, you know, the end is not nigh.
If that happens, it's unfortunate, but I mean, I think TikTok and ByteDance will go on and be, and there, you know, there's a time in which there was Myspace was like the major character or player.
There was a time in which Yahoo was a big search engine.
So, and then a whole bunch of other ones that we don't even remember, like Netscape and everything else.
So do I think that something bigger, faster, stronger could come and take its place?
I know it seems like impossible, but yeah, it couldn't get banned.
I think it would escalate.
And I think that then we become extremely tribal.
Where national security concerns are the thing that will, will actually, which is crossing borders.
But to the advantage of, you know, of not only bike dance, but it's the advantage of META, which is the, the owner.
And to, and Microsoft and a whole bunch of other, you know, well -known players that keep kind of sort of changing their name or their outcome or whatever they want to do.
But it will also wind up hurting those guys as well.
If you remember or if you saw when Mr. Trump was sworn in, you know, the Google person was there, Elon Musk was there, Mr. Cook, Tim Cook was there from Apple.
You know, Mr. Zuckerberg from Meta, he was there.
So they were all there, I don't know what that says, other than people are interested in the tech space.
And it's the impact of what's happening with this particular case will make a difference.
The other thing we haven't really talked about at all is that is that the legal liability for a lot of these organizations is not has been curtailed by the Congress.
And that may or may not, you know, become a concern for people like Meta and other platforms Oracle and everything else, where they've sort of gotten a pass from a liability standpoint, that that other media doesn't necessarily have, you're also seeing a collision of what's happening.
So if you look at Meta, he's decided, Mr. Zuckerberg has decided to take the pathway of, of having less fact checkers like like X or the former Twitter has done a on musk.
So what we're seeing here is there's a possibility of a pan.
We're also seeing that things are gonna ...
and this goes into what Digby had talked about, which is the First Amendment issue which Mr. Musk wants to promote.
And America is kind of unique in that it does have ...
this candidate doesn't have it.
United Kingdom or New Zealand or Australia, to the best of my knowledge, don't have full -on freedom of speech.
And that's one of the things that is distinctive about the United States and some other places.
And so, shutting that down is a bad symbol I think to the United States.
But it's not the only thing that's concerning about shutting it down.
Now if it does go forward with the full -blown ban, I think that you've got a bunch of things.
One is the technical stuff that's going to be lost, perhaps.
The other one is diplomatic tensions.
This race to the bottom with regards to the different countries deciding that they're going to make the Egyptian version of Facebook operate, or the Egyptian version.
You know the Gayanen, and you take any nation and say, we're gonna put up walls, and that's not going to be probably beneficial for anyone from a business perspective but certainly not for international relations and diplomacy between between borders for both, which things seem to be moving in that direction unfortunately.
There are voices suggesting that the ban on TikTok is inevitable.
Not only TikTok but any social media platforms or apps developed by Chinese people that becomes popular and mainstream in America will face the same fate.
So what are your thoughts on the future development of other Chinese social media platforms overseas, especially in the US market.
Oh, I think that's, the Chinese media has a huge future.
I think there's no doubt about that.
In fact, all Chinese brands because look the Chinese market is the largest domestic largest market in the world.
There's no doubt about that.
But it's also the largest market specifically in areas that really cutting edge.
So AI, social media, EVs, batteries, all that stuff, tech, solar, renewable, all that stuff.
China's leading and setting the standards.
So I think you're going to find that there's going to Chinese social media like TikTok is very flexible and adaptable, and it's adapted to the American environment very, very well.
And I think this can continue to happen.
talking about Elon Musk said immediately that Twitter that he basically copied, he took Twitter and he just copied Tencent WeChat and said that's what I wanted to be a super app and that is basically what everybody's doing and I but I still think WeChat is by far the best I don't think there's any doubt about that and I think yes it is going to expand.
All these Chinese brands, especially in the tech sector have a huge future but this TikTok in America is going to uh you know hate to repeat myself but this is going to set the standard going forward not just for Chinese tech companies expanding overseas which they're certainly going to be doing but also other countries are going to doing this as with theirs as well so the US for example and and their companies and as Edward just said you know Nigeria or some we might just decide well hang on a second we're going to we want Facebook to have a joint venture, and I think there's the real possibility
of this happening as we go forward.
But even more so, I think the power of creators is going to become greater than the platforms themselves.
So, we're all concentrating on platforms, but as those become global, the real influence is going to be on the actual content creators because Mr. Beast has got 300 million followers on YouTube.
He's now put his name forward to be one of the purchases of TikTok.
Whether that's just a publicity reasons I don't know.
But he's a very, very wealthy individual and he's got other backers with him that could make that possible.
And I think that shows you, you know, that content creators are the new power.
And that's really where it's going to go.
And at the end of the day in media, it's always about content.
Sorry. Just to comment on what Dingby was saying.
is it, what I saw, and again, I'm not so well versed at all, but there was Sean Shue, then when there was a shutdown with TikTok, then it seemed to be that some American entrepreneurs of whatever they are, hundred, sorry, 170 million, that's quite a number, of US users, they were emigrating to another Chinese app.
China seems to have got things right.
The other thing is, is maybe, not to overstate what Digby and the other guests have been sharing, is that, after Second World War, the reason why global trade flourished was because most of the countries were flat on their backs, with a few exceptions, the countries hadn't been like it or good, bad or indifferent.
I mean they kind of owned the seafaring rights and the protection of goods and things moving from international borders so this may be similar to the post 1945.
I mean this whole thing is happening with tiktok with information.
Okay so this is the template that we were talking about earlier and this is going to set the stage for freedom of information that's going to be passed on.
There is this tendency for nations and I you know that's why you have borders and that's why you have a security that says the information must remain without you know without unless you get it cleared within the nation before it's going out so that I mean this is the tip of the spear as to what is going to happen and whether this is going to be international we're going to retract so I don't know if anyone knows the outcome and I'm not sure that anyone's looking at it from that perspective right now But I do think it's about geopolitical rivalry but it's also about the foreign influence and data privacy
issues with regards to each of these countries as well and where people are going to go.
The Chat Lounge The Chat Lounge unpacks views and opinions on hot issues in a more casual way.
Howlan, we know Instagram, Facebook and YouTube have all tried to replicate TikTok by launching their own short video features, but have now been very successful.
So why can't American social media giants compete with TikTok and develop a popular app on their own?
This is obviously a very complex question because anytime an app or just a company is successful, there are multiple factors at play.
So sometimes it's just luck, and for TikTok, it's like no doubt because they are the pioneers of the short wheel platform and they became the first one to eat the crab.
So they basically occupied the center stage ever since, and that became very difficult for the up and commerce like Instagram, Facebook in YouTube to catch up even though they have such an arguably big presence in the Americans' life.
So I think that's the first reason.
But I think the second or deeper reason is that many of the American tech companies may not want to admit this but basically that the TikTok algorithms and the design and the features of the apps are just superior to their products and people are attached to whatever TikTok is feeding them and tailoring to their needs.
And that's something I think many of the American tech community had to think about, especially given that we see the success of Xiao Hongshu in the light of a potential TikTok ban.
And the fact that many of the users, although it's only a slight slice of the 170 million TikTok users, chose to go to another Chinese platform instead of going to more of the organic American ones that are already in place on Instagrams and YouTube, saying something about the nature of these companies.
So, I think, as David was talking about, that WeChat is one of the best instant communication softwares, and it's something I think the American tech company hasn't experienced before, because they basically have sort of this monopoly or superior complex for a better part of two decades now down the 21st centuries, and now we come to the reality that someone from across the ocean in China, the media companies can make better softwares.
I think that's something that many of the American legislators are also having difficulties trying to understand the situation, but it's going to become increasingly I think more likely to be coming down the line which is going to make this what Dick was talking about.
Technology and nationalism, much more prominent and more important.
I just mentioned that some of those U .S.
legislators. I watched this morning, I just rewatched the Senate inquiry that had Mao Ying, you know, was answering questions, and some of the questions that were asked of him by the senators, the congressmen, I was just unbelievably naive.
And one fellow even said, well, I've never even heard of Singapore, where's that?
I just thought, that tells you so much about you know, you've got American legislators who don't even know where Singapore is.
I mean, How are they going to make really difficult decisions about media companies, about data transfer, technology transfers?
How are they going to make informed decisions when they don't know where Singapore is?
I mean, that's one of the biggest failings, and I think that goes to what previous guests just said, and that is that, you know, America is surprised.
I mean, it's kind of a hubris, I suppose, or an arrogance, or just even just ignorance, imagining that nobody else can do this kind of thing.
They don't understand.
They don't know how to do it.
And clearly, China has shown and others of course have shown, the US has shown that this can happen.
And I think that there's going to be the success, that immediate success of Xiao Hongshuo, and I think Billie Billie and lots and lots of other Chinese tech companies are going to surprise everybody with just how convenient they are, how smoothly they work.
And immediately I'm thinking about the operating system that Huawei's come out with.
Harmony OS, for example, that's a real change, that's better than Android, I think that's going to grow, especially in, you know, in the Belgian road countries, it's like 140 countries, right?
So the global south, you might call that.
But China, I think, has is really focused on that area.
And maybe America is not so not going to be the main focus.
I mean, it is now because of the inauguration and Trump and all of that stuff, tariffs and so forth.
But I think that, you know, behind all of this is, you know, who, who is going to control the data flows and social media and the platforms and the apps in all of the across the world?
And at the moment, it's the American companies.
But I think that's going to change.
And then we're going to see, you know, much more infiltration by Chinese companies into those markets as we go forward, definitely over the next two, three years.
And this is only going to speed that up.
At word, some suggest that since Trump has taken office, both the US and China need an opportunity to rebuild a positive relationship and TikTok could serve as that opportunity and platform.
So what are your thoughts on this?
Yeah, I mean, great point, great question.
And I think it is a great opportunity.
And I think Mr. Trump, which is really interesting.
I mean, on that first, first day in office and second day, I guess in office, that he was giving such a long dialogue with the press.
I think he answered, and I don't think this is an exaggeration, and no one's talked about it, but I think he answered more questions on that day than Biden did in four years, and I'm not trying to run down Mr. Biden, but I would say, I would say it probably, someone should run the numbers on it but that might be the case.
But he did say himself, that he did speak to Mr. President Xi about Tik Tok.
So this is directly from Mr. Trump, and so it does appear to be a bridge building situation.
I do think that the TikTok is a cultural moment.
I also think that the one thing we didn't really talk about is why did TikTok become so famous is because they look at Facebook as kind of the old guys thing, like a bunch of old people and the young people don't want to be where their parents are going to observe them.
So it's kind of a ghost partnership.
And so the idea is that, I mean, TikTok came up.
but can this act is a bridge between U .S.-China relations absolutely positively?
And I think that somehow, who would have thought Mr. Trump who initiated this, a tick -tock ban would be the one who would sort of save it.
We have seen Mr. Trump do a 180 on things, I mean ZTE was also facing the death of ZTE essentially, and I don't know what happened, but you know that was turned around.
So I think somehow, that there could be good that comes from all this.
But this is a discussion, it's a tough one, but it's a discussion that needs to be had between leadership and between businesses in order to figure out how to go forward in this information age.
No doubt about it. Dick B and Houlan, what's your take on Edward's remarks?
Like, could TikTok become a turning point for improving relations between China and US?
Oh, I'll go first and say, that I agree with with Edward, I do believe that this because because all of the different levels of government that are going to have to cooperate, I mean different ministries from China, different ministries departments, State Departments in America, all of their departments, so commerce, technology, all that sort of stuff, efficiency.
They are all going to have to communicate at a level they have not done probably since Trump was in office last time, which one needs to remember that it was Trump that set all this off originally, you know.
So, you know, that big turnaround that he's done, I think this is going to be really important, and those networks that have been shut down over the last four years, five years, they are all going to start growing again like roots of a tree and they'll connect.
And, and that's really important, because that means going forward into other areas, you which is going to be bigger than TikTok, you know, basic technology, AI chips, all that stuff, that's going to end up being bigger.
EV, solar. It's going to set the road, the pathway for those, and it's going to have those connections are going to be rebuilt, and that's going to be very useful.
And my only worries, of course, is that Trump's security policies might upset the commercial policies.
But look, Trump is definitely transactional, definitely pragmatic, definitely intense commercial competition going forward.
And that's a very good break from the Biden four years.
And so TikTok is going to be a big part of that.
Helan, how about you?
Sure. Yes, I think I agree with Saul, basically, that it could be a wedge issue, that given basically what the static US -China relationship over the past four years.
And this isn't really just reflection of the Biden policy, but I think just the angle of the Biden administration's strong ideological desire behind Biden himself on those issues.
And Trump is not an ideological person, and he's on this issue, and many other foreign policy issues and he could become sort of a new surprise, given his willingness to sink outside of the box.
Anything related to TikTok or even just broader U .S.-China relationships, it's just the embolism of the second Trump administration.
Basically, there will be a lot of risk involving his decision -making, but also many outside of the box opportunities opportunities, reproachments and corporations.
And and this well being tragic in a sense, they're just business that the global business are being suffered because of national security concerns, and often unproven and difficult to prove and unprove, but it could also become sort of a new way of cooperation because it would be a template for cooperation between US, China government and also the companies that go into you be selling and buying and hosting tech talks.
With that, we are wrapping up this episode of the chat lounge.
I'll be speaking with Wang Haolan, a research assistant at Asia Society Policy Institute Center for China Analysis, Edward Liman, a Legal Affairs Commentatory and Managing Director of Liman Li and Xu Lao Firm, and Dr. Dick B.
Wren, an External Relations Advisor to the Royal Academy of Cambodia.
Thank you so much for listening.
Bye for now.
