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You may not know this, but the original purpose of Stuff You Should Know was to change people's minds about mail order marriages.
And we certainly did with this episode.
We were so successful that we decided to keep the podcast going.
I'm just kidding for those of our listeners who have trouble detecting that kind of thing.
What is true is that it's a surprisingly interesting episode, and it may very well change your mind about mail order marriages.
I was serious just now for those of our listeners who always think I'm kidding.
How about we all just enjoy this episode, shall we?
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too.
And this is stuff you should know about mail-order marriages.
The murky waters.
Yeah, really.
Yeah, this is one of those where we researched and researched and read and read.
Yeah.
And I think it's one of those deals for me that's like, and this is just my opening statement.
Okay.
Where it can be a positive thing, like a dating service in some ways.
But there is certainly a darker side to the whole situation.
I already know how you feel about it, and I feel like it's coming through clearly.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean it's just, it's very.
It's one of those really murky things where sometimes you hear these really great stories about people that do find are looking for love and find love with someone from another country.
And it works out for everybody.
Yeah.
And then sometimes you hear about stories where it's sort of what the National Organization for Women's, Sonia Osorio, calls a softer version of human trafficking.
Mm-hmm.
Or even worse, occasionally someone turns up murdered.
Yeah.
I mean, that's the truest dark side.
So that's just me level setting, and we can talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I think that was a great level setting.
I generally agree with it, but for me the jury is still out in thinking about it as a whole, because there's so little hard data on this stuff.
Almost everything is anecdotal.
And when, like you, condemn something based on anecdotal data, what you've got there is a moral panic, not necessarily something in reality.
So I'm a little hesitant to go all the way.
The jury's still out for me, but I definitely recognize the same stuff you do for sure.
It's definitely there.
It exists.
It's just for me the question is how much does it exist and does the good outweigh the bad?
And I don't know.
So we should probably like – actually define what we're talking about here.
Because most people, I would guess, are familiar with mail-order brides.
Recently they've come to be called mail-order marriages because they've been extended to same-sex couples in the United States.
But then also, even more generally, it's called international marriage brokerage, right?
Yeah.
I mean there's a full industry built around this, with thousands of websites and agencies that are brokering these marriages.
And from looking into it it seems like there are some really above board ones, that kind of act like An international dating surface in some ways, where they group you know, match like people together.
And then it seems like there are a lot of really sketchy ones that charge people a ton of money and aren't looking out for the men or the women.
Yeah, none of that money is sunk back into making their website look at all non-Kluge.
I saw some really, really bad websites.
I mean, so bad, man.
Like, I think I saw Comic Sans at one point.
Yeah, it's hard to see those and not think well, A this is a scam or B this is a front for some sort of seedy trafficking operation.
Right.
Yeah.
It is tough not to think like that.
But what we are talking about generally is a marriage where the husband and the wife are generally unknown to each other, maybe have met once, but if they did, it's possible.
It was just a day or two before.
Or maybe they've met once or twice and have done some correspondence back and forth for an extended period of time.
But that's pretty new.
And the classical definition is they're generally unknown to one another and one of them usually the bride travels a very long distance from home to move to the husband's home and make a life there and be married.
That's not the Webster's definition.
There's a lot more stumbling in my definition, but I think that generally gets it across.
Yeah, and the classic thing that you think of is lonely American man who has a little bit of money, in his 40s or 50s, can't find American woman and ends up getting a young beautiful, young Ukrainian woman who doesn't speak much English and would love to live in the United States and fall in love with an American man.
And that sort of And you know, of course it happens from all countries, but a lot of times you think of Russia and the Ukraine, or maybe in Southeast Asia or something like that.
That is sort of I feel like when people say that term, most people that's probably what pops into their head.
Yeah, or I think you're being rather generous.
I think a lot of people would be like you know.
Some sad sack who can't like find a woman in America has to go look elsewhere to get really judgy about it.
And I think people are really judgy about mail-order marriages.
Yeah.
I think there's a long-standing tradition in the United States of considering people who go outside the traditional channels of marriage and basically take it into their own hands, like through mail-order marriage.
They're very much judged harshly and criticized.
Maybe fairly, maybe not.
But I think there's another component too, especially these days, is that the men who are looking for mail-order brides are also dominant domineering, possibly abusive, and they're looking for docile women who will do whatever they say because they're the husband.
So they have to go to other cultures where that might be more prevalent and where they can select from women who might respond to that kind of thing a lot better than an American woman who wouldn't put up with his guff.
Yeah, I mean, that is certainly a part of what happens sometimes.
And some of these agencies... promote that, the submissive nature.
There was one that literally said that these young women are, quote, unspoiled by feminism.
And you have potential homemaking savings of one hundred and fifty dollars a week because you're essentially getting a you know sort of a live in domestic servant.
So, you know, that's the underbelly in the dark side.
But we, you know, I did find some that do seem very above board and people that do genuinely look like they're looking for love and have struck out at home.
So they're looking elsewhere.
Yeah.
So I said, Chuck, and we should also say one other thing, too.
Like, you know, it's pretty like it's a pretty well-known thing in America.
It's not like on everybody's lips.
You don't hear it in every monologue on the late night talk shows or anything like that.
But like generally people in America are. familiar and know about mail-order marriages.
But it turns out it's even bigger in other countries like Taiwan and South Korea have huge mail-order marriage industries that may even dwarf the United States.
And it's pretty.
I don't want to say it's huge in the United States, but it's not like just some small speck of sliver of like an arcane group of people.
Like it's bigger than you'd think, but it's even bigger in some other Asian countries as well.
Yeah, and Dave Ruse helped us put this together and this was a tough assignment for him, but he used a lot of information from a book by a legal professor originally from the University of South Carolina named Marcia Zug, called Buying a Bride.
Insert colon music Jerry An Engaging History of Mail Order Matches where it seems like she gives a.
A fair but fairly full-throated defense of its history through the ages.
But as far as an opportunity for a lot of women to gain more agency and to gain more rights at a time when they might not have any.
All the way up through today, where she still defends it to a certain degree and says sure, these situations can be bad.
But what's really bad is what undocumented – immigrants have to suffer through in this country because they have no legal rights.
They can't go to the police.
They can't leave their spouse or their partner for fear of deportation.
And it's an interesting take, I think.
And I'm glad that Dave found this book, you know, because I'm not sure that I would have been as fair.
Yeah, yeah.
No, she definitely almost—I get the impression that she is defensive on behalf of the industry just because of how mistreated it's been and, in her opinion, unfairly in large part.
Yeah, because, you know, I think it very much has an anti-feminist rap for good reason.
But she does make some compelling arguments that throughout history, it wasn't that way at all.
And I guess we can go ahead and dive into some of that.
Yeah.
In the early days of mail order marriages in the American colonies.
Yeah.
There was a lack of women problem in the early colonies.
I mean, like the earliest colonies.
We're talking like Jamestown here.
Yeah, like you know, the Puritans and pilgrims.
They may have come over with their families, but there are a lot of single men that came over.
And a lot of them.
Some of them may like run off with an indigenous woman and live with among her tribe and be like.
You know what I'm kind of done building things for Jamestown.
I'm out of here.
So that's no good if they're looking for young men to kind of help build up these young colonies.
And then other ones were just lonely and said, hey, there are no women over here.
What are we supposed to do?
So very early on they started – sort of advertising and bringing women, you know supposedly volunteers, over who wanted to come to the colonies and sort of have maybe even more rights than they had back home.
Yeah, and this is a really good example of kind of like a thread that ran through the first couple centuries of America's founding, which was government sanctioned and supported mail-order marriages in order to help build more stable communities, right?
So the legislatures did things like create laws that made it more attractive for a woman to to become a mail-order bride in this area.
Like apparently in England, if you became a widow, you got a third of the estate and that was it.
And in places like Virginia and I think Maryland as well, they set up laws that basically said hey, you're going to keep a lot more than that.
You can run your own business afterward.
Like being a widow is going to rock.
And did we mention also the men are dropping dead like flies over here.
Yeah.
Your husband's probably going to die pretty quick.
So if you don't like him, who cares?
You still get to keep all this inheritance and you get to keep the business and you can't do quite that well for yourself under those circumstances back in England.
So that attracted people.
And that was like the government saying like, please come over here and marry these strangers that you've never met before.
Yeah.
And you know it made sense for a lot of these young women, because many of them were, you know they were from like the servant class, let's say.
So they were looking at years of servitude in England.
And then they basically were like, well, hey, forget all that.
Why don't you just come over here, get married?
And like you said, I think the stat is even one in three marriages lasted 10 years.
Yeah.
So they did kind of sell him on the fact that, yeah, it's not so great.
He'll probably be dead soon enough.
Yeah. and then you can have his stuff.
Yeah.
And it actually, I mean, like that actually did like attract some women.
I think at least.
I don't know if we have the number, but there definitely were what they called tobacco wives, who came to marry new tobacco planters who were setting up their own fortune.
And I actually had to prove that they were a financial means by donating 150 pounds of gold leaf tobacco to the Virginia company to take part in this.
Right.
And so that that lasted as long as it lasted or as long as it needed to.
And as the eastern colonies started to like, become more self-sufficient, became less rowdy, became more family oriented, as far as the Europeans were concerned, the need for like those mail order schemes kind of went away.
But then, as America kind of expanded further and further west, the frontier kept recreating itself in different places.
So you know it went from the eastern colonies to you know, along the Mississippi, and then further and further out west.
And every time it did that this new iteration of the frontier was settled by rowdy men and And they would have to figure out a way to get women, to attract women, to come out to marry the rowdy men so they would stop beating each other up in bar fights and become more productive citizens.
And that kept going on throughout the 18th and 19th centuries in the United States.
Yeah, and you know if you're already thinking guys, this already sounds terrible, these marriages based on these financial arrangements.
Yeah.
And you know, despite these promises of a better life, like that's kind of what we're talking about.
Like, welcome to marriage in the 17th and 18th century.
Yeah, don't be so naive.
Yeah, that's not – that's kind of what it was, and Dave made a good point, like –
The notion of marrying for true love, that's a very much like a 20th century proposition.
Yeah.
Even if it wasn't a mail order bride situation, it was someone's dowry or parents sort of arranging marriages and saying this family should marry this family, which still goes on today, I should point out among, like the blue chip and the high society.
Sure.
Like Arthur had to marry Susan.
You know, let's not forget that.
Everybody with a Habsburg jaw was in an arranged marriage, I'm guessing.
He couldn't marry Liza Minnelli, the young waitress from Queens.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I didn't realize you were making the movie reference.
I thought you were using like Biff and Muffy, like blue blood names.
I got it now.
I got it.
But the point is that marriage was a financial arrangement many and most times back then.
I'm not saying no one ever married because they were in love.
I'm sure that happened.
But it had to tick a lot of boxes back then.
So it was just sort of the way it was.
And so this solved problems for early settlers and for westward expanders.
They made things really attractive in California for women.
They made it easier to divorce your husband if you wanted to.
Mm-hmm.
They made it easier to – or just legal to own and sell – buy and sell land, which is not something you could do at other places in the country.
So they were trying to make it an attractive situation for women to move west, because they needed men and women out there.
And I think between 1850 and 1860, the –
The population of women in California increased from 3% to 19% of the total population.
So it was working.
Yeah, it was.
And it wasn't just California, but Washington State also participated.
I think Oregon may have as well.
And there would be these schemes.
And I don't mean scheme like, you know, like dastardly scheme, but like a plan.
A good scheme.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Where, like a guy would go around to the bachelors out in like Washington territory and be like give me a hundred bucks or I think 300 bucks, which is about five grand today.
And I will bring you a suitable wife.
And at least one guy did this.
Asa Mercer was a marriage broker and he would go back east say hey, there's like this great bar, booming economy out west.
Why don't you come with me?
And like he would return with like 100 women and some of them would get married immediately.
Some would wait.
But it was like another.
It was another thing where there was a need for women to stabilize an out of control male population.
Yeah.
And you know, Zug points out very fairly in her book that some of these Mercer girls from – they were called from Asa Mercer's operation – became abolitionists.
Some became women's rights advocates and social reformers.
One of them's name was – it was a great name – Mehitable Haskell Elder.
And she organized the 1871 Women's Rights Conference in Olympia Washington, and recruited one, Susan B Anthony, as the territory delegate for the National Women's Suffrage Association Convention.
So you know, in a lot of cases these women did find agency and they did get out of a better situation than they were in back east.
Hey, so you want to take a break, and then we'll talk about, probably what was the real birth of mail-order marriages.
Sure.
Okay.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
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All right, Chuck.
So we've been talking to this point about basically like government sanctioned schemes to kind of stabilize male populations.
There was also at the same time, beginning in the 19th century, I think, starting in England, actually in the 18th century.
That was kind of simultaneously unfolding.
And that was the matrimonial advertisement industry which, to me, is like the real birth of the mail order marriage industry that we understand today.
But it was basically the personal ads.
Yeah, it was the birth of personal ads, the birth of dating services.
Mm-hmm.
It's really interesting in that women would put ads in London and then later on in the United States ads in the paper, basically saying you know hi, this is who I am.
This is what I'm looking for.
I mean, much like you would see these days in like a dating profile.
And it was a way for them to, you know, to take some agency over avoiding the arranged marriage that their parents had set up for them and maybe get a little bit of choice of suitors.
Right.
And I mean, like that is like taking control of your own of your own marriage prospects.
And it was I guess radical is probably a pretty good word, but it picked up.
It caught on, especially in the U.S. by the end of the 19th century.
It really started to catch on to where there were like magazines that were like dedicated just to matrimonial advertisements.
Right.
Yeah.
Like there was the matrimonial news, which is actually the most straight ahead of all of them.
Yeah, I like Cupid's Messenger.
That sounds like a cute one.
What about Heart and Hand?
Heart and Hand.
And then to me, this one, I guess they were just trying to play it really safe.
The Standard Correspondence Club.
Right.
Good day to you.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So, yeah, so these things were like kind of popular by the end of the 19th century.
But then it's like you said earlier by the end of the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century, our ideas about what constituted marriage or the reasons for marriage had transitioned from financial arrangements into love in America, right.
And so there was simultaneously a popularity of matrimonial advertisements and people taking control of their own marriage prospects right.
And at the same time, a criticism and a like society generally looking down upon people who did that kind of thing.
So there would be stories in the paper of people like sad sack bachelors or lonely heart widows getting conned or swindled or getting catfished.
Basically is what you'd call it today.
And people love to read that kind of stuff and laugh at their misfortune and look down on these people.
That's where the root of what people still do today to the mail-order marriage industry, at least in America, really finds its roots in the 20th century.
Yeah, and this is when things started transitioning to overseas, when American men started bringing in women from foreign countries.
And that's when—
I think that's when it became a bit more of an industry.
And this is when Congress got kind of full-on racist in trying to control this thing.
Yeah.
Because there was, you know, there were women saying I don't want these women coming into our country and disrupting our feminist agenda that we're trying to push.
There were men saying, we don't want this people from China or Japan coming in here.
And, you know, they can...
They can have babies once a year.
And they – like there were senators literally saying these things.
And so they would enact laws like we're going to be overrun basically.
So they would enact laws like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 to ban Chinese immigration.
There was a loophole for Japan with the 1907 Gentleman's Agreement, which basically said if you – that a Japanese woman and their kids could come over if they were married.
So there were Japanese single men already in the United States that immigrated over here.
That would get married sight unseen from like a catalog, basically in order to gain immigration status for the Japanese women.
And then that ultimately got shut down in 1924 with the Immigration Act and they just said no Japanese immigration of any kind.
So there was a huge anti-Asian thread from the late 19th century and the early 20th century based on immigration and a lot of that kind of centered on mail-order marriages.
But then one of the other things that— really kind of cropped up as a result of mail-order marriages going from like women back east, or women coming from Europe to women coming from Asia to marry white American men there was this idea that the women were nothing more than like looking for a green card, basically American citizenship, trying to escape their own country.
Right.
And you run into that criticism today.
I mean just as much as you would have back in 1924, when they passed the Immigration Act against Japanese people.
Oh, yeah, because – and this is from Zug's book.
She talks about Mexican women, Greek women, Asian women, Jewish women, Italian women.
They were much more likely to be deported under an LPC charge, which is a person that is likely to become a public charge.
Basically like to come over and sort of live off the government.
Yeah.
If they were from these countries and a way around that was to get married and get that green card.
So that criticism like came pretty straight away, I think.
Right.
And then the other one is that that they were basically all just sex workers in disguise, coming over under the guise of being mail order brides.
But really, they were coming over here to prostitute themselves and behave immorally.
And again, this is another accusation that you see today, except the the.
The onus has – or the focus, the empathy, I guess has evolved from being put on society being attacked by these immoral women to the women themselves being trafficked by international criminals.
But it's still generally the same accusation.
It's just been – it's just altered itself some.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know that sort of anti-feminist charge from American women saying that you know these women from other countries are coming over here and they do whatever their husbands tell them.
And this is setting us back.
They would say the same thing, though, about war brides.
If you were a soldier in Korea or Vietnam and brought a woman back over.
They would have that same kind of charge levied against them, saying the only reason you're bringing these women back is because of the power imbalance that is now gained.
And that can be fair to a certain degree.
There's a lot – there is –
It's really hard to talk about marriage like this without talking about inequity and a power imbalance from the beginning.
Not to say that that doesn't change and that there aren't great success stories where both partners are equal and they both contribute and they both respect one another's viewpoints.
But anytime you are...
In a situation where you are bringing someone over from another country that is escaping a bad situation and looking for a more prosperous situation, and you can provide that and you are paying the money to the service for linking you.
There's a power imbalance there from the beginning.
Yeah well, there's a power imbalance in that, like you, probably don't speak the language as the mail-order bride.
You don't have any friends.
You don't have any family.
You don't have any social structure to depend on.
The only person you have to depend on is your husband.
Right.
And if he's not very nice to you or even worse, abusive toward you.
Yes.
You're in big trouble.
And then it's also like you said if you are escaping poverty back home, you might show up with basically no money.
And so if you just found out that this guy is not all he's cracked up to be or he is abusive, or he's actually got a terrible criminal record or terrible credit or all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't have otherwise come over for you're stuck here.
And according to some human trafficking groups, that is a broad definition of human trafficking, where a person is moved from one place to another for financial means and then ends up becoming dependent financially in a situation that they otherwise wouldn't want to be in.
They would not have chosen to put themselves in.
That's as much human trafficking in a broad definition as somebody being kidnapped and forced into sex work.
Yeah, and even if there is no you know no literal violence or abuse, that doesn't mean that it's an equitable situation, because someone can essentially be almost a captive in their own home.
Like you said, if they don't speak the language they have no advocates over here for themselves or friends to help them and speak up for them.
And you can see why it gets a bad rap for sure.
So on the flip side, though—
There have to be men out there who just struck out consistently with America, or American women or men, and took matters into their own hands and looked abroad.
And the best way to do that is a marriage broker.
And there's plenty of places you can do that.
And then also the other problem with just basically characterizing mail-order brides as – nothing but like victims ripe for exploitation is to really miss the personalities of a lot of them, where to put yourself out there as a mail order bride shows a um or demonstrates like a lot of initiative compared to just staying back home and making do with your lot in life.
Like if you're a widow in some countries and you have kids and, You might not be remarriable.
There might not be anybody who wants to marry you.
And so you're doomed to a life of solitude and single motherhood, whether you like it or not.
So if you just say, OK, well, that's my lot in life.
That's what I'm doing.
OK, fine.
But if you say, you know what?
No, there's another way out.
And it might not be the most tasteful thing that I would have chosen for myself before.
But I really want to make sure my kids are taken care of.
And I'm going to go seek a husband elsewhere.
That shows that demonstrates a lot of self-starter-ness.
I guess that, I think, kind of undermines a lot of the view of mail-order brides as these kind of like simple-minded, docile women that can't fend for themselves or stick up for themselves.
Yeah, and it's also a real slippery slope to judge.
I mean, we all think like oh, you should only fall in love with love at first sight and that should be all it is, and that should be what marriage is based on, full stop.
It's a real slippery slope to to judge someone else's situation if it's working out for both of them.
If it is a rich old guy in his 60s who is like you know what I want to live out the last 15 years of my life with a partner.
And there's a beautiful young Ukrainian woman who's like you know what?
I've got nothing going on over here.
I don't have a lot of prospects.
My country is not doing me any favors.
And so I'm going to go over and marry some rich guy and we're going to be happy for the last 15 years of his life and they travel and they do take cruises and they have a good time together, like it's a real slippery slope for someone to come in and say well no, that's wrong, because you guys just didn't meet and fall in love.
Like you know.
Meeting in a bar, drunk one night, like all Americans again and again, that seems to be a long standing criticism that stretches back at least a century, here in America too, For sure.
Okay, so enough of that.
Enough of that.
I feel like we should talk about some of the nuts and bolts of the mail-order marriage industry.
Okay?
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Well, let's start.
So I found this contemporary journalism from 1986.
You're CJ.
Right.
And the New York Times.
They basically just checked in with the mail order marriage industry at the time.
And it gave a really good snapshot of how things used to be.
One of the reasons why mail order brides were called mail order brides because time was that you would find a mail order marriage service.
You would subscribe to that service.
The New York Times says anywhere between $50 to $500 a year.
A month.
Yeah.
Well, that was for a catalog.
Annual subscription was 50 to 500.
And then every month or every couple months or maybe twice a month probably not twice a month you would get a catalog that was clearly made by somebody who didn't major in catalog making in college.
Of pictures of, like a prospective bride, her stats, physical stats, her likes, her dislikes, that kind of thing.
Basically a blurb.
And you'd flip through a catalog and you'd get back in touch with the subscription service and say I like number 8972.
And I also like thirty seven fifty five.
And you just give them a list of of women that you wanted them to reach out to on your behalf.
And all of a sudden you would start exchanging letters little by little.
You would narrow down the women that you were talking to.
And then you would eventually probably go over and meet one.
And maybe in that trip marry them like, have your wedding like the day you meet them or the day after you met them.
And that was pretty standard for the 70s and 80s as far as mail order goes.
And I think into the 90s as well.
Yeah, and of course, it's all online now and depending on which agency you go through and, like I said, there are thousands they offer a range of services to bleed you of as much money as they can in the process, whether it's subscription fees, or we'll write your first letters for you and translate them for a fee, or if you want to video chat or have phone calls, we can arrange that for a fee.
Yeah, everything has a fee.
Uh, i think this one and this is from an anti-trafficking international website article.
Uh, they said that estimates show um, people spend about six to ten thousand dollars.
Each client spends about six to ten thousand dollars.
Yeah, and i think this is for, you know the, I guess, more high-end, more reputable ones.
I think some of those places are happy if they get like $500 out of you and then you leave.
Well, I think you can be like a skinflint husband and just do it strictly online and then go meet them and marry them.
But there are ones that offer like tours for like 5000 which, depending on the country, may or may not be legal.
Like if you went to Vietnam, it would be illegal.
In Vietnam, mail order marriages, the whole industry is illegal, but it's also rampant there.
And there are like whole hotels where a woman goes and stays and then tours of like guys from Taiwan or South Korea or the United States come through and meet them.
And I think human trafficking people are like, and do God knows what else for money.
And if you hit it off with one, maybe you like start talking to them a little more or you marry them on the spot, that kind of thing.
But there's like there's tours you can go on.
And depending on your view of the mail order marriage industry, it's either a tour where you're going and meeting a lot of prospective brides or it's basically a sex tour to Vietnam.
Yeah.
Right.
And they also will do things where it's really hard to not read as a man, sort of buying a woman, where they say like well, you know, we'll put them up in this hotel and we'll have them go checked out by our doctors and our psychologists.
They'll have a psychological evaluation and all of this information will be sent to you, the man with the money, to make your decision on whether or not you're going to sort of pay for this bride.
And it's, it's really hard to look at that any other way than that.
Like you really got to stretch your mind.
Yeah.
And.
But then you will read a story about a couple that that are deeply in love for 20 years on and who had kids in America and who had a great life together.
Uh, and it, and they were like, no, it was really more like an international dating service.
Uh, and they just sort of matchmaked, um, or matchmated, uh, Made matched.
So it's like it's just.
I don't know if we've ever had a topic where I was so like all right well, this doesn't sound too bad.
And like, oh, my God, this sounds terrible.
Yeah, I got you.
Yeah, I can't remember.
And that may be the industry, you know.
Yeah.
I think it can be both those things.
Yeah, it makes you – yes.
And it surely is both of those things.
Again, the question is, is one way more than the other?
And if so, which way is it lopsided?
And if so, do we need to like follow Vietnam's footsteps and outlaw the marriage – the mail-order marriage industry?
You know what I'm saying?
It's like – Sure, yeah.
That may be a really big red flag.
Like why did Vietnam outlaw an entire industry?
That's totally like fine and legal here in the United States.
Right.
So – Should we take a break?
Yeah, I think we should take a break.
And we'll talk about mail order marriages in the internet age, because things have changed a little bit.
Yeah, and some of the laws.
Yeah.
Right?
Right.
All right.
We'll be right back.
We'll be right back.
Thank you.
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All right.
Really quickly this – the great article I found from the Anti-Trafficking International site.
They did kind of talk a little bit about what it means for your immigration status and how – because I mentioned earlier that Zug said you know who's really at risk are undocumented immigrants, because they have no recourse.
Right.
But even if you do come over as a mail-order bride, and here's basically what happens.
The Immigration Marriage Fraud Amendment which was enacted in 86 is basically the husband will apply for a spouse or a fiancé visa.
And then the bride has to marry the husband within three months upon arrival.
So there's a three-month sort of try-it-out period.
But the bride only has conditional resident status for two years.
So in that two-year period at the end of which they have to apply jointly for her permanent status as a resident, in that conditional two-year period –.
That is the dodgy territory where they're basically like the bride is completely dependent on the husband.
He holds all the cards.
They're very vulnerable at this point.
They may have linguistic isolation and or cultural isolation.
They may not have that social network that we were talking about or be completely economically dependent on the husband.
And they might be afraid that he'll be like, you know what?
It's in that two-year frame.
I can still have you sent home.
Right.
So you better be nice.
And this is basically where they're saying this is just sort of a softer version of trafficking.
Right.
Even though, and there is real trafficking attached to this.
We're not talking about that.
We're talking about women who do come over voluntarily.
Right.
But they still see that as a sort of a softer version of that.
So in that power dynamic and the one where you mentioned, where the men were supplied with all the information, where the mail-order brides had basically none about the men, that's changed in the last few years thanks to the Internet and thanks to things like video chat and texting and Facebook and Skype.
And now women are able just through the simple tools of the Internet— to be much more discerning and discriminating in the men they choose.
It's not just like, I'm going to put myself in a catalog and cross my fingers.
They're putting themselves out there much more, at least ones that are members of legitimate mail-order marriage brokerages, right.
Yeah, and there were, very sadly, a couple of high-profile murders leading up to the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act in 2005.
And this is where things really kind of changed as far as at least trying to help adjust that power dynamic, in that, if you are a legitimate brokerage agency you're required to – provide these women with a lot of information now about the men, whether or not they're on state or national sex offender registries, background on their like financials.
Yeah what that looks like, you know and how to go to the police and stuff like that, and that you can do stuff like that.
Yeah, and so...
People who are like, hey, that's not cool, man.
If you were an American woman just dating an American man, you wouldn't have access to that kind of information.
That's really invasive.
It is true.
It's also almost basically a straw man argument because—
An American woman is not going to be in the kind of isolated, completely dependent situation that a mail-order bride is going to be in.
And so the mail-order bride needs a lot more safeguards than just an average American woman is going to need.
So nice try, but that argument doesn't hold water at all.
Yeah, I agree.
You talked earlier at the beginning about a lack of data and statistics.
They don't even really know how often this is happening, much less how many are successful and how many times they end poorly or in abuse and things like that.
There are a few numbers out there.
I think the – how do you pronounce that?
I want to say Tahiri.
Tahiri.
Tahiri Justice Center.
They estimate between 11000 and 16000 women immigrate each year through a marriage broker.
The INS has it more like 4,000 to 6,000.
So you kind of can't really tell how much this is even going on.
So it's really hard to you know, like you said, if you don't have the data for noobs like us, it's kind of hard to form a hard opinion.
Right, but it's not just noobs like us who don't have the data.
Like no one has the data.
So it's like, you know, no one can form a hard opinion.
And in that case, you have to treat it on like a case-by-case basis.
And like if you have nothing but anecdotal data or evidence –
You can't just say like yes, the mail order marriage industry is just a front for human trafficking and sex trafficking.
That is a moral panic that you've just started right there.
So we have to go out and get the data.
But at the same time that doesn't mean you can't simultaneously offer support to women who might be suffering from that.
Like what if it turns out to be true?
Like, yeah, it's all just a big front for human trafficking and these women need help.
Roll out the red carpet, like get those services broadcast, like figure out how to get them help if they need it and see if anybody comes out of the woodwork in the meantime while you're conducting those studies, to come up with that data one way or another.
Can't hurt.
It's just money.
And that's a pretty good thing to spend money on if you ask me.
Yeah, I agree.
There are some studies that show spousal abuse rates are about three times higher.
But this is just for immigrant women married to U.S. husbands.
I think that includes all immigrant women.
I don't think it's just mail order situations.
That's right.
So that's data that doesn't exactly help.
But it does shine a light on that power dynamic as a whole, I think.
Yeah, and I couldn't tell the –.
Dave mentioned that there were three murdered women mail-order brides in the United States, I think between 2010 and 2020 maybe.
Yeah.
And if, using the high number that the Tahiri Justice Center uses for how many came over every year, you get 160000 of them.
So three murders out of 160,000 population is, I think, 0.18%.
But out of all the women, all the married women in America it's like 64 million married women, 17250 on average died, were murdered by their partner in that same time, which is 26.
So I probably got the math wrong, but if it is right, then that means you're actually less likely to be murdered by your husband as a mail-order bride than you are just as an American woman who was married and just part of the general population.
So that's great.
Right.
That's one of the stats you can't feel good about.
No, exactly.
That's a great, that is an excellent point for sure, Chuck.
I mean, I think it shines a light that we need to basically do away with spousal murder.
I think we can all get behind that, right?
Yeah.
What it does, though, again, is it makes you think maybe let's concentrate on the real problems.
Right.
And if that's not – if the mail-order bride situation isn't the real problem, then we just – and we all know this, but we have a real domestic violence problem in this country anyway.
Yeah.
It's the same thing.
What was the last one we talked about?
Oh, the stranger danger where it was like, oh, no, actually –
Your cousin is going to like rape and murder you way more frequently than just some strangers.
But let's all concentrate on the stranger.
Your spouse is possibly going to murder you, but let's ignore that and concentrate on mail-order brides being murdered instead, even if it's just much less of a chance.
Like that's the definition of a moral panic, and you've got to sort those out because they obfuscate important things.
Yeah.
And, you know, at the beginning of the episode, you mentioned LGBTQ rights.
That's why we call it mail order marriages now, because in 2013, with the Supreme Court striking down parts of the Defense of Marriage Act, it allowed and there has been a you know since then sort of a big time rise in LGBTQ people doing the exact same thing.
And a lot of times these people in other countries are literally forced fleeing for their life because they have no rights in their own country as a person from that community.
So that's one of those where you look at and you're like they could literally be saving someone's life by getting them out of their country over here.
Yeah, that's right.
And men do it too.
I saw there was a – I was curious about mail-order husbands and if that was even a thing.
And apparently Ireland – in recent years has got some of this going on, where these Irish men are putting themselves out there and saying hey, I'm a strapping young Irish man and I'm happy to come marry you and live in your country.
Very nice.
That's a thing in Ireland.
Did not know that.
I had no idea either, but leave it to Ireland to just try something new.
So good for you, Ireland.
Good for you.
You got anything else on mail order marriages?
I got nothing else.
I can take off my roller skates now.
This one was danger at every turn.
I thought you did great.
I thought we did great.
It's good.
I'm pretty sure.
Oh, God, I hope so.
Well, if you want to know more about mail-order marriages, go check it out and see what you think for yourself.
Don't take our words for it.
And since I said don't take our words for it, it's time for Listener Mail.
Listener mail.
This is a sad case, so a bit of a trigger warning here, especially if you've lost a family member to COVID.
But I've had a back and forth with this gentleman and he really felt strongly about reading this on the air in the name of getting people vaccinated.
Hey, guys, haven't written in quite some time.
Been listening since 2008.
You've been around for so many personal milestones, even though we've never met, even though I did ask you the best question ever at your live show in Phoenix.
My father taught me how to play guitar.
I've been playing for nearly 30 years because of his influence.
There's never been a question of Gibson or Fender in my family.
It's always been clear we're a Fender family.
He played a Strat and I played a Tele.
This last Tuesday, I said goodbye to my father.
COVID had done its job and completely overtaken his body.
After he passed later that day I went into my truck and took a few minutes and decided I needed some Josh and Chuck to get my mind off of things, and I was absolutely shocked.
On that day, Leo Fender and Les Paul came through in my feed.
My father and I did not have anything we bonded over more than our love of music and playing guitar, an affinity for Fender and a dislike of all things Gibson.
Sorry, Chuck."
And he included a song that he gave his father that he wrote for him.
It's great.
And this is from Eddie.
And Eddie said...
Please read this on the air.
He said, my mother decided to get vaccinated because of this and they were not vaccinated.
And he said just please send the message out to people that it can happen to you and your family and just go out there and get that vaccination already.
Thanks for that, Eddie.
And definitely our condolences on your father's passing.
I'm really sorry to hear that.
But I'm glad we could bring you a little measure of comfort at a terrible time.
So thank you for letting us know about that.
And also thank you for telling everybody to get vaccinated, because it's a pretty good thing to use your position for.
So I think like Eddie said, go get vaccinated.
Yeah, we said it.
Go get vaccinated.
Okay?
Okay.
Agreed.
And, in the meantime, if you want to get in touch with us, you can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradiocom.
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Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or MG and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as CIDP.
Finding empowerment in the community is critical.
Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition.
A Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenix explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places.
Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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