This is an iHeart Podcast. one helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.
Just ask the Capital One Bank guy.
It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too.
Thanks, Capital One Bank guy.
What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. See Capital One dot com slash bank.
Capital One and a member FDIC.
Hey, everybody. Chuck here with this week's Saturday Select.
That's when Josh Josh and I curate specially selected episodes to rerun that may be a few years old.
They may be, oh, heck, they may be 10 years old, maybe even older.
You never know because a lot of people don't know these episodes even exist. So that's why we do this.
So anyway, this one's on birth order.
It's called Is Birth Order Important?
I believe this was originally a Chuck idea to begin with.
This is from April 23, 2019.
And I am just pretty obsessed with birth order.
And so that's why I picked it to begin with, and that's why I'm picking it again right now.
Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.
There's Charles Zubichuk.
Brian, there's Jerry over there.
And this is Stuff You Should Know.
Jerry? podcast. Jerry, were you a, uh, what was your birth order?
Oh, Jerry's a middle child.
Two of two or two of more?
So you're the baby.
You don't know this?
No. Did you? Sure. No. I've known Jerry for like 13 years.
So have I. Well, not that long, 12 years.
So have have i well no comment what am i i don't know that's right i know what i'm the baby you know that yeah i didn't ask what you were i know you know what you are what am i this isn't quiz time you're not gonna just uh yeah yeah i wasn't calling you out oh well i was calling you out you were in a humorous way and i called you out um it's hard not to look at this stuff through through your own lens, though, of your own family, you know?
Are you changing the subject?
No, I'm getting on with it.
Oh, okay. Because as the youngest of three, and all of us have three distinct personalities, it's hard not to kind of, like, think about birth order.
Right. And if that's a thing.
Right. And it may be, and it may not be.
Yeah. Depends on which scientist you're asking.
I tend to think, like, there's just no way it doesn't have any effect.
No, I think it definitely has an effect, but as we will see, it is one part of a huge pie that indicates what kind of person and personality you might have. Well, plus also it's devilishly tricky to analyze, to study.
Because of how big that pie is.
Yeah, there's so much going on with your personality that to just pinpoint one thing, even a big thing like where you're born in a family, it's just tough to pin down.
You're the youngest, right?
Good guess. Yes, I am.
I knew you were the youngest. I'm like, I wear that on my sleeve.
I feel like I kind of do too.
to. I guess in some ways, but like I was reading this checklist for the youngest. Yeah.
I'm like, yeah, I guess so.
Let's, let's, let's do this.
Should we go over that, that stuff first?
Yeah, totally. All right.
So this is like the sort of macro view of how a lot of people think of birth order.
Is that a fair way to say it?
I would call it pop psychology.
Yeah. So if you you were born into a family, there's basically four ways that you can be born in some sort of order.
You can be the firstborn.
You can be a middle child.
Or you can be the last born.
And then if you're a real outlier.
Okay, you're right.
So there's five. Or a triplet.
Oh, God. Yeah. Don't even get me started.
Let's just say a multi.
Okay, a multi. Or you can be an only child too.
you sure and all of them have distinct personalities again according to pop psychology but also according to every person who's ever been born yeah into a family especially yeah yeah and so with the first born um the whole the whole theory of basically birth order where where you're born into the family unit that you're born into and what effect that has on your personality and how it develops it all seems to come down to this idea that you are born into a family where there is a finite resource called parental attention.
And then that is a pie that gets increasingly divided up into smaller and smaller pieces the more and more children that are born.
Because your parents can't possibly give five kids the same amount of attention that they could give an only child.
It's just not possible.
And so what dynamics are created in the personality of the kids born into of that family, depending on how many others are born and depending on where they fall in that birth order.
That's kind of the premise of the whole thing.
And over time, people have said, well, this is what the firstborn's like.
This is what the middle's like.
This is what the baby's like.
Yeah, and there were, I mean, a lot of this are, these are generalizations, but they're generalizations, like you said, that kind of everyone who's ever been in a family can kind of say, yeah, that's kind of true.
Right. you know, when you have an only or your first kid, they this article references as that first sort of experiment.
You don't know what you're doing yet.
You're probably going all in depending on how lazy you are, how motivated you are as a parent with this, you know, being a super parent.
And then if supposedly as you have more children, you get it's not only is your attention divided, But there's the notion that you also are like, you know what, I probably don't need to be as crazy with number two and number three.
Leave them to their own devices.
As a third kid, I'm not going to get into too many depressing details of my family growing up.
But by the time I was 10 and 11, my parents had other things going on.
And I wasn't feral.
Other kids on the side?
Not exactly. I wasn't feral by any means, but I did not have rules imposed on me like my brother and sister did.
I did not have – I was allowed to go to Panama City for spring break and they weren't.
I was allowed to kind of do my own thing.
And I was trustworthy, so that probably had a lot to do with it.
Yeah. If that would have been a real problem, they might have clamped down a little more or maybe not.
And they probably wouldn't have necessarily clamped down like, we need to give Chuck way more attention and guidance than we have been.
and they would have probably been like— Crime and punishment.
They would have been like, we're sending Chuck to rehab or whatever.
You know what I mean?
Let rehab take care of her, or reform school or something like that.
Because once you get X number of kids in, you're just so tired.
You're so tired, and you're older too.
Sure. Like when you're chasing a little kid around in like your 40s or 50s, that's different than when you're chasing a little kid around in your mid -20s.
I can't imagine. A world of difference.
Yeah. You know? So there's a lot of resources, not just parents' attention, but also their time, intellectual attention that they'll give a kid, like in, say, hanging out, teaching the kid to read, that kind of stuff, and just attention in general.
And also financial resources.
The family's resources in general are a pie that must be divided among all the kids.
Yeah, financial, emotional, all that stuff, instructive.
Yeah. So generally speaking, firstborns, people say, tend to be very conscientious and structured and reliable and high achievers.
Yeah, because their parents are focusing like a laser on them.
They know everything the kid's got going on, maybe a little too much. And the kid is responding to this by basically becoming a perfectionist and really wanting to be around their parents.
Yeah. Their parents' friends, more mature.
Very much mature because all of the people or most of the people they're hanging out with are adults.
Yep. Okay, so that's a firstborn typically, right?
Everybody knows it.
Don't try to deny it.
Middles in general are people -pleasing, which is so my brother.
That's weird to me because when I think of middle children, I think of Jan Brady, and Jan Brady was not a people -pleaser.
She was just, you know, a lump, like a lump with a cloud over her head.
Oh, poor Jan. But that's true.
Like, I would not characterize Jan Brady as a people pleaser, would you?
No. Like, she was going to burn something down eventually if the Brady Bunch had stayed on the air long enough.
It was also a blended family.
So what was – Oh, yeah.
Who was the – it was Bobby and then was it Peter?
Well, Peter was her lateral, I guess you'd call it.
Was he a people pleaser?
Or just a Peter pleaser?
More than Jan. More than Jan. But blended families do confound things.
We'll get into that later.
Yeah, for sure. But people pleasing, somewhat rebellious, which is not my brother at all.
Large social circle, not really my brother.
And a peacemaker, totally my brother.
He's the best. He's the best. And then the youngings, youngies, youngins?
Like us. Most free -spirited, fun -loving, uncomplicated, manipulative.
uh -huh i've i've been called some of these things to varying degrees yeah self -centered attention seeking and outgoing check and check but combine you and i and we're sort of like the proto youngest uncomplicated though i'm like i don't get that i'm i'm exquisitely complicated on the surface you wouldn't think it but i'm pretty complicated sure as we all know in this But that's the only one that I'm, like, that I question.
All the rest of them are like, yeah, that makes sense.
It's like the Chinese Zodiac.
You look at that menu and you're like, oh, I'm a total dog.
Yes. And Moogoo Guy Pan sounds great right now.
Onlys, no siblings, you are what they call almost like a super firstborn.
Which sounds scary as hell.
All of the traits of a firstborn on steroids.
Right. Very much a perfectionist, very much more mature for your age, conscientious, diligent, prone to be a leader.
Can leap over tall buildings.
And then this is where it gets interesting.
And this sort of starts to— Finally, everybody, this is where it starts to get interesting.
Well, this is where it gets in a little bit like how complicated it can get because there's so many factors at play like what if you're in a blended family because that kind of throws it all out of whack.
Yeah, dude, because if you're born a firstborn and your parents get divorced and you go with your mom who gets remarried to a dude who has a— Mike Brady.
Yes. To a smashing cool architect.
For sure. And he has a kid that's a little older than you.
Greg. Greg's the firstborn.
You're not the firstborn anymore.
The best you can hope for is to form some sort of confederacy or alliance with Greg to rule the rest of the siblings.
siblings but you're not the head honcho anymore you're not in charge that's a big deal i can't imagine many more traumatic experiences especially one that follows closely on the heels of your parents divorce or the death of like your other parent um that's got to be one of the most traumatic things a kid can go through is to lose the their identified perch in the family order yeah and that's you we were talking about like the firstborn like the baby of the family if all All of a sudden there's a younger, no good.
No. Like I remember my parents for some reason talking about adopting a kid.
I can't remember how old I was.
I must have been about seven.
And I remember breaking down and crying and just being like, you can't do this.
Right. You cannot bring in someone younger and cuter than me.
Yeah. I'm losing my looks.
I'm seven. And a blended family.
If all of a sudden you're going to be a younger, or God forbid, a baby, just forget about it.
You can't compete with that.
You've got to kill that baby.
Well, that's what happened, too, when Brady Bunch started to lose ratings.
Apparently your family was losing ratings.
Oliver. So they were talking about that.
They brought in Cousin Oliver, a new baby.
And I don't think Bobby was very happy about that either.
No, but just think about Jan. It all makes a little bit more sense.
Like, she was like, I'm the middle child.
And then they brought in three more, and she was like, I'm even more middle.
Yeah, you're deluded.
The middle child is deluded.
And if you have multiple middle children, forget about it.
That's right. However, here's the thing with blended families.
They say by about the age of five that a lot of your personality is set.
So if you're older than five and all of a sudden your family is blended, they say it may not make that much of a difference.
No, no, that's where it's trouble.
If you're younger than five and your personality is a little more plastic, If you were born a baby of the family and suddenly you're a firstborn or you're a middle kid, you'll adapt to that a lot better than you would if you're, like, older and you're more solid in your birth order.
Yeah, I didn't mean not trouble.
What I meant was, like, if you're, like, 12 years old and the family blending happens, it's trouble, but it's not like your personality is like, all of a sudden, I'm the youngest or, you know what I mean?
Like, you don't all of a sudden swap to a different birth order personality, I don't think.
Right. But if you're younger and it happens, you do.
Right. Under the age of five.
Which goes to show that if this is a thing, and we'll talk about whether it is or not soon.
Yeah. And it has nothing to do with biology.
It has everything to do with nurture, not nature, because a kid can adapt depending on when this happens.
They can adapt to a change in birth order if they're young enough.
That means it has nothing to do with biology.
It's all the environment you're raised in, which is the most boneheadedly obvious thing on the planet.
And then, before we take a break, there are also gap children.
children. Supposedly, if there's at least a five -year gap between births, then it just sort of resets.
That was like me and my oldest sister.
She was 13 years older than me.
Right. She was just like this older, cool person, but not like an older sister, not at all overbearing, really like sweet and looked out for me, I guess a little bit.
Yeah. Or like a second mom kind of to an extent.
Sure. Because that does happen too if there's a big gap or a big family.
Yeah. Like I dated a girl in New Jersey that was like six or seven of them.
And by the time she came around, she was kind of fully being raised by her siblings.
Right, right. So what happens when there's enough of a gap?
A new family birth order forms. So like if you have an oldest and then there's multiple years, like say 10 years between your oldest and your middle, and then two years between your middle and your baby, be the middle and the baby are going to form a firstborn and a lastborn type relationship yeah the lastborn is always going to be the lastborn yes regardless of gap but then twins like you were saying is one last confounding thing they twins or triplets multiples as you call them yeah yeah i think so uh they form their own family unit within the family too with each other and And apparently, no matter
where they're born, twins never act like middle kids.
They always act like the firstborn or the baby, but to one another.
Right, and I think they generally come together to kill the parents.
Basically. Right? They hold hands.
It's like an elevator of blood washes around them.
And then finally, with adoption, they say that depending on when your child is adopted, the same kind of scenario happens as in like with gapped and blended families.
Right. Whereas if the kid's young enough, he or she will tailor their birth order to the family that they're adopted into.
But if they're older, there'll be trouble.
All right. That's a good overview, I think.
I think it was a great overview, Chuck.
I'm glowing from it.
We're going to—you do have that overview glow.
We're going to take a break, and we're going to talk about science right after this.
Let's be real. Life happens.
Kids spill. Pets shed.
And accidents are inevitable.
Find a sofa that can keep up at washablesofas .com.
Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out, so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry -free living.
Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics.
They're kid proof, pet friendly, and built for everyday life.
Plus changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want.
Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space.
Whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.
Plus they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200 ,000 happy customers.
It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa.
Sofa. Visit washablesofas .com today and save. That's washablesofas .com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
You know, everybody, summer's winding down and it's going to be nice to get back into a regular, more fall -like routine, I have to say.
That's right. And one of the things you can do to help yourself move from summer to fall is to spruce up your place.
And the best place to do that is with Wayfair, Chuck.
That's right. From bedding and linens to storage, solutions for every room in the house, Wayfair is your one -stop shop because you can refresh that workspace with desks, bookcases, office chairs for way less money.
And hey, storage is an issue for just about everybody, and you can get storage for every space.
You can store your outdoor furniture, storage for your bathroom, and just basically get organized.
Yeah, plus don't forget your living room.
They've got seating, rugs, lamps, throw blankets, essentially everything you you need to say, Welcome, Fall.
Welcome back. So get organized, refreshed, and back to routine for way less.
Head to Wayfair .com right now to shop all things home.
That's W -A -Y -F -A -I -R .com.
Wayfair. Every style, every home.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.
Just ask the Capital One bank guy.
It's pretty pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too.
Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy.
What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. See CapitalOne .com slash bank.
Capital One N .A. member FDIC.
All right, Chuck. As promised, we're going to talk about science because, like I said, This is so boneheaded and obvious to every single person who's ever been born into a family.
Everybody knows this stuff.
But as far as science is concerned, this is not proven that birth order effects, as they're called, actually exist. Science is saying, slow your roll, everybody.
We can't actually prove that what everybody knows is actually true.
Some studies show that yes, there is such a thing as birth order effects.
effects other studies show that there is no birth order effect whatsoever and then some studies suggest that if there are birth order effects they're so small that they are basically a blip on your personality that all the other factors that form your personality things like the socioeconomic status of the family you're born into your racial background your gender all the the other stuff um that is what really forms your personality not the order you're born into your family that's kind of science's position right now yeah but what they all agree on is that it is therapy cash cow right that that yes
it's a it's a good it's a useful framework to approach psychotherapy from and that's where they all want to talk about it at high hourly rates see to me me I'm like this is sure this is exactly what forms your personality but I get science's position I respect it so if we go back in time to the early 1900s it was a man named Alfred Adler he was a part of a he was a contemporary of Freud and this is when all these dudes were getting together to talk about all this stuff in this burgeoning science and they all thought they were so cool and important.
And he was one of the only ones among his peers, though, at the time that was talking about birth order that early.
Yeah. And he went on to form what we know as Adlerian psychology or individual psychology.
And it's basically a therapy based on how you perceive your own level of power in your family, at your workplace, in the world at large.
In general, like your perceived power, place of position, or status, right?
Yeah. And if he believed in birth order having a significant influence on your personality, then that in turn would influence how powerful you may or may not feel.
Yeah, because to Adler, if how you perceived your own power, not necessarily how powerful you were, but your own perception of power was the driving force of like what, how you interacted with the world, your personality, birth order would make total sense.
because birth order, as everybody knows, is nothing but positions of superiority or inferiority.
And it's as simple as that.
Because when you're born and you're a little kid and you're born into a family with an older sibling, they are a couple of steps ahead of you because they've already been through a bunch of stuff.
So they're inherently superior to you.
They can also beat you up on a very basic level.
They can twist your arm behind your back until it feels like it's going to break.
And no matter how many times you say, Say, uncle, uncle, uncle.
They won't stop until they're satisfied.
Or protect you like my big brother did.
That's great. From his friends that were jerks to me.
Right. He wouldn't stand for it.
No. We went at it too, you know.
We were brothers, but he never picked on me.
No. You know why? Because you're Chuck.
And he's Scott. Right.
In the 80s is when, I mean, there were always studies starting since Adler and Freud's time.
But in the 1980s is when it really blew up.
thanks to the big five and cocaine, the big five personality trait view of things.
And that's when things in the 80s, that's when everybody was just like eating the stuff up.
Yeah, because so the big five personality inventory is, we've talked about it before, but basically it is a self -reported measure that is actually valid.
It actually works. Like you you can say this person is highly neurotic or this person is extroverted or, well, three others that I can't bring to mind right now.
But these things are also kind of broken into subcategories.
Like these are big umbrella terms that have more specific subcategories.
But it's actually like valid, like somebody who fills this survey out, it's going to be an accurate assessment of their personality.
So if you have somebody's personality, that's huge, right?
You can say, all right, if this person is neurotic, they're highly neurotic, let's see what birth order they are.
Oh, they're a middle child?
Let's compare them to other middle children who filled out this personality survey, scored high on neuroses, and all of a sudden we can show if you're a middle child, you're far likelier to be highly neurotic under the big five personality inventory than a firstborn is, right?
Boom, bam, you just proved that birth order effects exist, or did you?
Yeah. They're like, we can put people further into a box and label them.
Sure. Or did you? Because that is sort of the paradox that we arrive at, which is you pointed to it a little bit earlier.
There are so many, so many influences that go into what makes you you that it's hard to look at birth order as a mere small part of that.
Yeah. Yeah, so— Like you can't account, you can account for some of these in studying it.
Right. You know, there's a lot of studies over the years, and they do their best, but you can't account for all of them.
Well, okay, so we'll go back to that example.
So you've just gone to your peers and said, look, I have just proven that middle children are highly neurotic compared to other children in birth orders, right?
Yeah, yeah. And then you're shaking your own fists around your shoulders in triumph, and they say, well, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Did you control for socioeconomic background?
And you go, no, I didn't.
Well, wait, did you control for race?
No. Did you control for gender?
No. And so all of a sudden you realize there's all these different independent variables.
Oh, tons. What in this case would be confounding variables, that might actually be the thing influencing it.
It might be the fact that they are women born into families of a low socioeconomic state that is driving neuroses.
Right. That's actually the thing that is driving it rather than birth order.
It has nothing to do with being a middle child.
It's just a fluke, a coincidence.
Yeah. And like you said, there's so many confounding variables and so many things that make our personalities who we are that some people who are like birth order effects do not exist. basically say that any birth order study that shows that they do exist has some confounding variable that's the actual hidden thing that's driving it, that you can't possibly control for everything to make a perfectly designed experiment for birth order.
Yeah, like when you start to think about, like if you were just to sit there and sort of jot down things as non -scientists, just regular schmoes like us, and just jot down a list of what other factors might be at play, we could probably come up with a list of a hundred things between us.
Let's start now. But that would, like, if I was studying this stuff and I started to make that list, I would just walk away and go into another line of study.
Sure. I would be like, dude, I just, you know, were your parents married?
Were they divorced?
When did they get divorced?
Did you like hot dogs?
Did you live with mom or dad?
How far apart did they live?
Yeah. Were you suburban?
Were you urban? Yeah.
Did you live in an exurb?
Did you grow up in the woods?
Did you start work at 12?
for you like old -timey I started work at 12 I guess I did too I did paper route yeah I was a bus boy oh nice oh wait was that where the guy put his foot into the yeah yeah brunch of stew what a criminal I told you that's a Title Max now that restaurant I drove by it not too long ago yeah J .J.'s barbecue Title Max now they're putting their foot on titles stomping on them yeah Yeah, but they got your money, your money, your real money.
They're never going to sponsor us now.
Another few things that can confound these studies are things, and Ed helped us put this research together, things like demographic shifts.
So he gave a great example of, like, the baby boom.
If there's a big population bulge, it also coincides with a lot of other stuff.
And the example he used was prevalence of cigarette smoking.
There may be a false correlation there between being a firstborn and smoking.
Whereas if you were second born 12 years later, I guess that would fall outside that range though of gap child.
But that's even more confounding.
The point's still valid.
Sure. That like there's just way more firstborns who smoke than secondborns.
But that's because smoking was more prevalent when there were a bunch of kids born who were all of the same cohort in all firstborns.
Right. That's just one of the ways this thing can be confounded.
Yeah. This one really speaks to me, which is labeled as growth.
When a birth order effect does appear, it is strongest when the subject is with their siblings.
Yeah. When you're a family reunion, everybody falls back into that.
It is so funny how that happens.
Yeah. I see myself do it.
Good example. I turned 48 a couple of weeks ago.
My family, my sister and her husband happened to be in town.
Didn't come for that.
But we were texting and I was like, hey, let's all, you know, this is great.
Let's all go out to dinner.
She's like, oh, well, I didn't want to.
I just figured you wouldn't want to spend your birthday with your friend.
You'd want to spend your birthday with your friends and not your family.
And I saw Michelle when she got in town and she said the same thing in person.
I was like, dude, I'm 48.
Yeah. It's like, I'm not 22 -year -old Chuck.
That was some burnout.
Like I used to be. And she just sort of laughed.
But that's a perfect example of how, like, no matter what happens in my life, I will always be the baby.
Yeah. And she will probably feel like she has to look out for me, which is a nice feeling.
It is. I see Emily fall into patterns with her family.
What does she? Well, she is a – she is an interesting case because she was an only and then has a half -brother and a half -sister.
Okay. Her dad – Plenty of family.
And then her mom got married to her father -in -law, Steve, who already had a daughter.
So it's sort of a weird mix.
But I just mean in general, not even with siblings, just in how their family dynamic is.
She's a different person when we go over there.
Yeah, I think everybody is.
And it happens to all of us.
I think everybody is around their family.
It's so strange. Yeah.
So this is when it sort of started me down the path of like, what is personality?
Is it a personality trait?
Is it this just, is it repeated behaviors?
Is it a set of behaviors?
Like, is that personality?
Are you asking me? Yeah.
I mean, I don't even know.
Like, what is personality?
We should do a show on that.
Oh, we totally should.
But from what I understand, just kind of briefly put it, personality is the kind of predictable way that you'll react to the world, right?
Is it easy for somebody to press your buttons?
Are you laid back? Are you – like could somebody – however, if somebody were presented with – this is going terribly.
If somebody were presented with a – like an event in life.
Okay. You could say Josh would probably respond to it like that.
Yeah. That's a personality.
Right, but is that something inherent, or is it birth order?
No, it's— Or is it just a collection of learned behaviors?
I think it's a collection of learned and reinforced behaviors, too.
If you're told you're the baby of the family all the time, you're going to act like the baby of the family.
You're going to act self -centered.
You're going to act manipulative.
It's reinforced. If you're told you can do anything, you can go out and do anything.
You can literally walk through walls because someone told you to.
They reinforce that behavior.
But I think that's what personality is.
And this is just me talking.
I also believe in birth order effects, by the way.
But I think that that is – it's learned and reinforced, which means it can be unlearned.
You can learn to be different.
Yeah. At that same birthday dinner, I picked up the check for everyone.
Oh, nice. And there was a bit of a – not an argument.
Bloody struggle? My mom and I were, you know, kind of off to the side with the people who work there doing the credit card battle.
And she wasn't super happy, and I should have just let her pay.
But it's part of that thing.
Like, I'm the baby of the family.
And I kind of just finally told her, I said, listen, Mom, it's like it's my turn to pay.
Nice. You know, I'm not the baby anymore.
Like, quit writing me a check for $100 on my birthday.
Do you cash those? Yeah, I mean, I generally just put it in my kid's bank account.
Oh, that's a good thing.
You know? Yeah. We don't catch the ones from her.
Because I also don't want to take away the joy that she gets from writing me that $100 check.
Yeah, sure. That's not cool.
No. It's like I don't need that from her, but like that's what brings her joy.
Yeah. Giving you money.
It's complicated. So let me teach you a little trick.
Oh, okay. If you don't want to get into that tussle, if you just wanted to be done, sorry, it's too late.
When you order, when you hand the menu back to the server, just be holding your credit card with your thumb and give them a look.
It's universal. universal dude they all know and they'll take it and be like and you got to first nobody else does that they always wait and they pretend to go to the bathroom like after everybody's done it's so obvious you got to start before the food even comes before the drinks even come you know what i did what when we got to the restaurant the very first thing i did was go up to the manager while everyone was being seated and said listen dude my mom's gonna try and pay or one of these These other chumps in my family is going to try and pay.
I was like, I don't want any of them paying.
It was like 12 people.
I picked the place.
I picked a nicer place.
It's like, I don't want to do that.
And I was like, so just here's my credit card. Please make sure that the server, there's no battle.
They didn't follow your orders?
No, because my mom, she tried to jump me later on the side and didn't realize I had already jumped her.
So it should have been done.
I know, but then we went over there.
He was, like, listen, man, your mom is over here now.
Like, she's the mom.
We generally side with the parents on this stuff.
What place was this?
It was just a restaurant.
I demand to know. I'm mad about this.
Well, you think my move should have just trumped all moves.
Yes. No, I agree. And that's what I basically said.
And I was, like, listen, man.
I was, like, there are factors at play here that I don't want to talk about.
Yeah. It's, like, just please.
And my mom got a little mad.
I blame this manager.
I think you should expose them.
Well, I'm glad it all worked out in the end.
Oh, man. Should we take a break?
I thought we were right now.
No. All right. We'll be back right after this.
Let's be real. Life happens.
Kids spill. Pets shed.
And accidents are inevitable.
Find a sofa that can keep up at washablesofas .com.
Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out.
So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry -free living.
Made with liquid and stain -resistant fabrics, they're kid -proof, pet -friendly, and built for everyday life.
Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want.
Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa any time to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.
Plus, they're earth -friendly and trusted by over 200 ,000 happy customers.
It's time to upgrade to a stress -free, mess -proof sofa.
Visit WashableSofas .com today and save. That's WashableSofas .com.
Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet, with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.
Just ask the Capital One Bank guy.
It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too.
Thanks, Capital One Bank guy.
What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. See CapitalOne .com slash bank.
Capital One N .A., member FDIC.
Hey, everybody. Val Spahr knows that just because that paint color felt right then doesn't mean it's right now.
Maybe your daughter was loving the unicorns you painstakingly painted on her wall, but now she wants a more grown -up green.
Or maybe you went a little too hard on the millennial pink trend.
Or maybe you were loving your spotless white walls before you had kids, but now your dining room needs a little color and a washable finish for everyday stains.
Yeah, everybody knows that paint color can enhance the vibe of a space.
You can completely alter a room just with a different coat of paint.
Yeah, you know, I like it when you just do one wall in a room, and I did one wall of my office black and it really added a lot.
Ooh la la. Well, whether you want to personalize your space or find your next phase, Valspar Ultra has you covered starting at just $29 .98 per gallon.
Valspar Ultra Interior Paint Plus Primer starting at just $29 .98 per gallon.
Pick up everything you need for your next project at Lowe's.
Price varies by sheen.
All right, we're back, Chuck.
Yes. And like we said, we showed science is kind of like, we're not quite sure about the birth order effect.
That hasn't kept like a whole cottage like field of psychology from continuing since the 80s, basically nonstop.
Like if you go look at birth order effects, it's very rare you're going to run into anything that says like, this is all BS.
yes. Most of it's like, yeah, this is true.
Everybody knows it.
There have been some like prominent people in favor of, or like, like that say, yes, there is such thing as birth effects.
And there was one guy in particular who made a big splash in 1996 with a book called Born to Rebel.
Yeah. Soloway? Yeah.
Frank Soloway, Frank J.
Soloway, if you want to be fancy about it.
And he got a MacArthur genius grant in 1984 to kind of study this and write about it.
And he did. He wrote a book called Born to Rebel.
It was about birth order.
And the whole premise of the book was he looked at scientific revolutions throughout the ages.
It was pretty interesting.
Identified which scientists were on which side of it, either in support of this revolutionary thinking or opposed to it, meaning that they were in favor of keeping the status quo, and then determined what birth order they had.
And he found after this study, which is really, it was a big study.
Yeah. It was a lot of legwork and a lot of research. He determined that first -borns are much more likely to support the status quo, whereas second -borns or later -borns, he calls them, are much more likely to support revolutionary thinking.
Yeah, and just one example as far as he used Darwinism.
He said later -borns between 1859 and 1875 were 4 .6 times more likely than first -borns to support Darwinism.
Yeah, this revolutionary thinking.
Yeah, and that was one of many examples.
I think there were 121 historical events with 6 ,500 individuals either supporting or opposing him.
So it was a big work for sure.
Yeah, and one of his, I mean, he put some reasoning behind it too.
He was like, if you're a later born, you might have a hard time competing with your older, you might have a tighter bond with the parents maybe.
And so, that sort of symbolically forces you to be almost an outsider within your own family.
So, you may be more prone to join up with an outsider opinion.
Right, to go look outside of the family union and all of the values and the ideas that it holds to make your own mark in order to get attention or support or whatever from your parents.
Whereas if you're a firstborn, you just got the easiest thing to do is to just fall in line with your parents and hence support the status quo.
It makes sense. But Born to Rebel was torn apart by some scientists.
Sure. Like this is just pure pop psychology tripe.
I think that's an unfair characterization of it.
Like the guy worked for basically 20 -something years on this stuff And it was a very robust study.
One of the pitfalls that he seemed to have run into, though, was he was analyzing historical figures, which is really sticky stuff.
Like you can't analyze people, even from afar, even if they're contemporary, let alone they've been dead for a couple hundred years.
So to base it on that is kind of difficult and tricky.
But I just want to say he worked really hard on it.
So another part plucked from his research I thought was pretty interesting was the idea that part of this less rebellious nature of a firstborn might be due to the longstanding but now sort of antiquated practice of primogeniture, which is the firstborn gets the inheritance.
So they're more likely just through thousands of years of this more inclined to like not ruffle the feathers of the parents.
Right, and then the later borns who are like, I've got basically zero chance of inheriting the family titles in a state.
I'll just go do my own thing.
I don't have to fall in line.
That makes sense as well.
And the other interesting thing with that is another factor was the removal of a child from a family.
He's found that a later born who was removed from the family and reared by a relative will end up behaving like a typical first born.
Right. And again, I'm assuming if that's under the age of like five.
But I wonder, so I'm wondering if that just is supported by other research or if all of the parenting magazine articles that mention that whole, you know, the personality is tailored is really just citing that work.
Because that's one of the big problems with pop psychology in general is it's self -reinforcing.
One person says one thing and it gets picked up by a bunch of people and they're all pointing to the same thing.
But since so many of them are pointing, there's so many of them out there doing the pointing, It seems like it's a very robust and like widespread body of work when really it was just one study that said one thing that everybody's citing.
Well, yeah, like in his case, he likes to cite this Norwegian study.
It found a difference of 2 .3 IQ points between first and second born children.
Sample size of 241 ,000 subjects.
That's big. It is big.
But then, you know, Ed sort of brings up a good point like, okay, maybe, but like is it 2 .3?
First of all, IQ tests are problematic for a lot of reasons.
Because they're bunk.
Possibly bunk. But even if they're not, is a 2 .3 IQ point difference even meaningful enough to be like, well, look, two points.
So, no, it's not meaningful in that, like, you know, that's not going to lead to any, like, closed doors or open doors or anything.
It's just such a narrow difference.
But if that's like an average and it is found across firstborns and later borns, like in a very large population like that, it does make you wonder like what would that come from?
It does raise more questions.
You know what I mean?
So, yeah, it's an insignificant difference as far as like actual intelligence goes, but it does suggest that there's something weird going on there that does have to do with birth order.
Well, I guess that brings us to this really interesting thing that I had never heard of before.
Oh, yeah? Had you heard of this?
Mm -hmm. Fraternal birth order effect, which is basically the idea, and a lot of studies have backed this up.
Yeah. Meta -analysis of tons of studies have backed this up.
The idea is that if you have multiple boys in your family, each successive boy that's born, and this is if it's just boys, has a higher chance of being gay.
Right. I didn't think – and when I first saw that, I was like, that can't be real.
Right. And then I did a lot more poking around.
I was like, wow. It is real.
The statistics sort of bear it out.
Yeah, if there's a big disagreement about whether actual just regular birth order effects exist, this one is much more supported by the data.
Yeah. The fraternal birth order effect.
And so much so that there is a sexologist, which if that were my field of study, I'd be like, call me Sexologist Josh, please.
I can't find his name.
Is Ray something? something he said and i'm not sure what he was basing this on but he said that um there is a increase of 33 percent in likelihood that you will be gay with each additional older brother you have now so that means if you are born into a family and you're the youngest of four brothers i did this this math what does that mean because i know these people like i have It means that there's a 0 % chance, I guess, that you are going to be hetero.
That you're 100 % chance going to be gay, right?
Well, how many? It could be 160 % chance.
It just keeps going, right?
I mean, that can't be right.
Eventually, you become so gay you pop out the other side and you're straight because you have like 10 brothers.
Well, I did see that meta -analysis of multiple, multiple studies Studies indicated that between 15 % and 29 % of gay males owe their sexual orientation to this effect, supposedly.
Okay. And we should say there are some studies that have not found this.
There was a big one that had – it was like a survey of British young men that surveyed like 11 ,000 of them or whatever and did not find this.
But so many studies have found it that science is like, this actually might be a thing and we're not quite sure what it is.
And at first they explained it that the more boys there are, the less social pressure there are for you to be like hetero and responsible for carrying on the family line.
Right, right, right.
Like after two, three brothers who are going to carry on the family line, go.
Go crazy. Go do what you want.
And that that was the idea behind why it became likelier that you would be gay if you had more older brothers.
There's a couple of things with that that kind of suggest that, like, being gay or not is a choice or being straight or not is a choice rather than something biological, whatever.
That has kind of gone out the window with another really surprising finding that has to do with handedness that really undermines that whole idea.
Yeah, so this is so just mind -blowing and interesting.
So the increase in probability of a boy becoming gay is only if that boy is right -handed.
Right -handed. Yep. So if you're left -handed, among left -handed men, there was no statistical difference in the incidence of homosexuality even if you've got a thousand brothers.
And the weird thing about that is that they found if you are taking birth order out of the equation, if you are left -handed, there's a slightly higher incidence of being gay.
Just period. Yes, for being left -handed.
And that's with men and women, apparently.
So the idea that not only does it not make you more likely to be gay as far as fraternal birth order is concerned, it actually negates the effects of fraternal birth order.
It negates it. It shows that social pressure from brothers doesn't have anything to do with it.
Right. Because a right -handed or a left -handed kid is not going to be under any more or less social pressure from older brothers to be straight.
Right. Right. That makes zero sense whatsoever.
And that would also suggest in its handedness that it has something to do with genetics too.
If you're ambidextrous, are you bisexual?
I guess so. Where's that study?
That makes sense. So I did a little more digging in this, but I don't understand it at all.
But more recently, as in just a couple of years ago, they think they found an actual physiological, biological explanation for that.
Did you understand that?
I don't know if they found it or if somebody made it up and everybody's like, all right, that'll do for now.
I read a bunch of papers that said, you know, they think this may be it.
Okay. But I didn't get it.
So, what they think is that when a mom carries a boy, her body has a reaction to the male proteins, the stuff that makes him a male, creates an allergic reaction of sorts in the mom, and the mom produces antibodies.
antibodies the first time the mom's body's totally caught off guard has basically no effects whatsoever right on the the boy's development as a boy as more and more boys are born and gestate in that same poor mom um the the antibodies get better and better at recognizing these proteins and can actually get to the point where they affect the expression of these proteins and so what makes the boy straight from the basis of these proteins is actually affected.
And they develop differently starting in the womb because the mom has developed antibodies to basically maleness, which is the most mind boggling, amazing idea I've ever heard. That summary was so much better than the scientific paper summaries that I read today.
Thank you, Chuck. Good job.
Thank you. You should do that.
Thank you. I do for a living.
I just did. Well, that's a good point.
I thought this was interesting too.
I mean, we've kind of gone over most of these birth order theories, I think, in general.
But this one I don't think we super touched on, and I think is really interesting, the confluence theory.
So, this is sort of like resource dilution of parents that we were talking about.
Yeah. Like only so much emotional support or financial support to go around.
But this takes it down to the sibling level.
and it's sort of basically like if you were first born uh you are then have a degraded emotional environment an intellectual environment once you get a younger yeah so it's like playing tennis against better or worse competition if you're the better tennis player you're not going to play as good against a lesser tennis player and they're saying that that kind of happens with first borns because they have to spend time with this dumb kid, this dumb baby.
But the dumb baby gets a leg up.
Exactly. That's when you play tennis against someone better than you.
Eventually, that's called the Tudor effect.
They surpass that first porn.
The student becomes the master.
That's right. Exactly.
And your skin turns to alabaster.
Really interesting.
It says sting. Is that sting?
Mm -hmm. Well, the police.
Oh, okay. Oh, sure.
I thought you were like Dream of the Blue Turtle Sting.
No, I'm more of a nothing like the sun. Yes, synchronicity.
No, that's good, too.
I'm still mad at them for that reunion tour.
Oh, yeah, they really phoned it in, you said, right?
Just phoned it in. Hey, I saw for some—so I just thought of the Police and then Stuart Copeland, which made me think of Les Claypool.
Remember he was in that band with Les Claypool and Trey Anastasio?
Yeah, it's called Kill Me.
No, it's three talented individuals.
Individuals. But then that made me think of Les Claypool, who was in a documentary I just saw on The Residents.
Have you seen it? No. The Residents were the mystery band, right, that wore the big ping -pong heads?
Eyeballs. Eyeballs, right.
Still are a mystery band.
Still going. Really?
Yeah, they're good.
But it's good. It's an intellectual kind of examination of their history and everything.
But it's really interesting.
But Les Claypool's in it.
Do you think when Les Claypool, Fish Guy, what's his name?
trey anastacio and stewart copeland and stewart copeland you think when they got together to form that band all they did was just sort of work out whose solo is next probably it's like i want to do the bass solo first and then we can go right into the guitar solo right and then the drum solo and then the song's over hopefully the birth order of the three worked out so that it all they were like yes this all makes sense to me oh man there's nothing better than old videos of of Stuart Copeland pitching fits.
Oh, did he? I always heard it was Sting that was the jerk to Stuart Copeland.
Was Stuart Copeland the jerk?
Well, Stuart Copeland was a hothead, and Sting could poke his buttons.
Oh. Yeah, it's pretty fun.
Poor Stuart Copeland.
No, don't feel bad for Stuart Copeland.
Man, he might be, I think he might be the best drummer who ever lived.
Everybody says Neil Peart.
I don't know, man. Stuart Copeland was pretty good.
Oh, yeah. And, like, crazy, like, doing his own thing.
And he's from Macon.
What? Yeah. Macon, Georgia?
Macon, Georgia. Wow.
I didn't know that.
This concludes this episode of Stuff You Should Know.
If you want to know more about birth order, go talk to your family.
We don't care. Since I said that, it's time for Listener Mail.
Did you watch the Motley Crue movie yet on Netflix?
No. No, I didn't know it was out.
Yeah, it's out. Okay.
Is it good? Uh, no. Is it based on that book you read?
It's not good, but it's great.
You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
It's based on the book.
Okay. But it's so, I mean, it feels like one of those VH1, are you literally making a note?
I can't wait to see it.
It's sort of like one of those VH1 music movies.
Okay. Like the Jackson's one.
It's good. Okay. I'll check it out.
All right. Who plays Vince Neal?
They're all, you know, the only one of the, not the only thing, there's a lot of distracting parts.
But the guy who plays Vince Neal in his hair looks a lot like Garth.
Looks a lot like Dana Carvey as Garth.
So it's kind of hard to fully go there.
The guy who played Tommy Lee is pretty good.
Was it Christian Navarro?
No, did he want to?
He can't play Tommy Lee.
He could. Tommy Lee's like 6 '5".
That kid can play anybody.
Well, no, I agree. All right, it's time for Listener Mail.
I said Chuck. Navarro's more a Mick Mars guy.
Okay. All right, here we go.
Is that from, is that Dokken?
No, Mick Mars was my group.
Who is that? He's a guitar player.
Oh. The old creep. Yeah, sure.
Sure, I know who you're talking about.
I guess I never knew his name.
By creep, he was a creep.
He was creepy. Sure.
That's what I mean.
Still is. All right, here we go.
This is from Sam. I'm just going to call this heartfelt.
It's always nice to hear this.
Hey, guys, probably could have sent this a million times, but tonight I really felt the need to.
You were with me when I transitioned from high school to college.
You were there the night my dad died two years ago, and now you're here as I'm in the process of dealing with my girlfriend dumping me after three years.
You're always there, guys.
I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I want to tell you that some tough days, on tough days, you really help keep me sane, plain, and simple.
You help keep me sane, plain and simple.
Not that we keep them plain and simple.
I read that wrong. That's like eat shoots and leaves.
That's right. I have depression and anxiety, and the podcast is a huge help on nights like this when nothing seems to help or is comforting.
I can tell if things get really bad if even the podcast doesn't help.
You guys have also been like role models for me.
Oof. So this is all just to say thank you so much, guys.
Who knows how much darker some spots of my life have been without you.
I could say much more, but I think I got the message across.
That is from Sam, and he says, P .S.
I am a he -him, and I spanked this email on the bottom.
Oh, good. That's how it got here.
That's right. Nice work.
If you want to get in touch with us like Sam did, Thank you very much, Sam, by the way.
That was very sweet of you to tell us all that.
Hope you're pulling through.
Yeah, hang in there, man.
You can get in touch with us by going to StuffYouShouldKnow .com and clicking on our social links.
And you can also send us an email like Sam did.
Don't forget to spank it on the bottom to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio .com.
Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
life with a severe autoimmune condition, a Ruby Studio production, and partnership with Argenix explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places.
Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees.
Just ask the Capital One bank guy.
It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.
He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too.
Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy.
What's in your wallet?
Terms apply. See CapitalOne .com slash bank.
Capital One N .A. Member FDIC.
Are you struggling with weight gain, mood swings, or constant fatigue?
Hormonal imbalances could be to blame, and Quest makes it easy to check in on your hormone health.
Visit QuestHealth .com to shop hormone -focused lab tests and get insights to help balance your body.
And for a limited time, Stuff You Should Know listeners save 10 % on select Quest hormone tests when you use code STUFF10 at checkout.
Take charge of your hormone health today at questhealth .com.
Terms apply. This is an iHeart Podcast.
