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Hey everyone, it's Jay Shetty and I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour.
for the first time ever you can see my on purpose podcast live and in person join me in a city near you for meaningful insightful conversations with surprise guests it could be a celebrity top wellness expert or a ceo or business leader we'll dive into experiences designed to inspire growth spark learning
and build real connections i can't wait to see you there tickets are on sell now head to jshetty .me and get yours today if you are doing a lot of side hustles it's very very difficult to be great at your main hustle the only way you're going to build real wealth and economic security is to go all in on one
thing that is greatness focus none of this matters none of it means a thing if you can't have deep and meaningful relationships scott is a professor of marketing at nyu stern school of business he's a best -selling author he has earned a massive following through lectures, podcasts, and YouTube channel.
Scott Galloway. How do we rewire our relationship with money?
Because most of us have a stressful relationship with money.
I think we should have a class called adulting in your senior year of high school that says, my kid can do derivatives, but I just figured out he doesn't understand the interest rate on his credit card.
You want to be good at money?
Put down the facade and start talking to people about their investments, how much money they make, what they do with their money, how they save money.
Women are correctly and justifiably, especially young women, blowing by young men.
They have more discipline.
They have higher EQ.
Quite frankly, they're just more mature.
If you want to score above your weight class economically or romantically, get out a big spoon and get ready to eat shit.
Life isn't about what happens to you.
It's about how you respond to what happens to you.
What I tell young people is you can have it all.
You just can't have it all at once.
If you're actually getting into a committed relationship, how do we start having healthy and effective conversations about money?
I think what really screws up relationships is not financial mishaps.
It's the number one health and wellness podcast.
Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty.
The one, the only Jay Shetty.
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed.
Today's guest is someone I've been really wanting to speak to And I'm so excited because in the studio, we have Scott Galloway, New York Times, bestselling author, entrepreneur, and professor at NYU, known for his sharp insights on personal finance, success, and discovering one's unique talents.
He hosts the Professor G podcast, the Prof G podcast, where he shares his honest and practical advice.
in his book the algebra of wealth a simple formula to financial security scott breaks down the path to financial success into four key principles focus stoicism time and diversification his podcast and book work together to offer valuable guidance for those looking to improve their financial well -being
and personal growth please welcome to on purpose scott galloway scott so great to have you here it's great to be here thanks for having me yeah thank you so much i I just found out that you're living in my hometown and I'm living in yours.
That's right. We swapped.
We swapped, yeah. I think you got the better end of it.
My God, it's so beautiful here.
I feel very lucky to be here.
Genuinely grateful to be here.
Scott, there's so many things I want to talk to you.
I'm a huge fan. Thanks.
My team are huge fans.
I'm going to have to ask you to sign too many books before you leave.
No problem. But one of the first things I wanted to ask you and to start with is that you talk about this.
why are 30 -year -olds today earning less than their parents at 30?
And what are the challenges that that will create in the future?
Sure. So first off, that's the first time that's happened in our nation's history.
And I think that is a fundamental breakdown in the social compact.
If you were to reverse engineer to what is the incendiary port on every social issue we face, which turns a small cut into an opportunistic infection, takes righteous movements but turns them more angry, more polarized.
I think it's that the compact is broken down.
If your kids, if you play by the rules, you work hard, get some luck, the basic goal is that our notion is that your kids will do better than you.
And when your kids aren't doing better than you, it creates shame and rage all around the household.
So I think this is really what, if you will, is kind of ground zero for what we need to fix in the United States.
Now, why has it happened the incumbents will say it's things like globalization or network effects or income inequality with technology sort of but i would argue it's been a concerted effort by the incumbents who ultimately um understandably weaponized government and put in place advocate for their
own interests and end up passing uh social and fiscal policies that essentially have transferred wealth from young people to old people let me give you some examples the two biggest tax deductions are mortgage interest rate and capital gains.
Who owns homes and stocks?
People my age. Who makes all of their money through earned income and rents?
People your age or people your staff's age.
COVID, $7 trillion into the economy, 85 % of it wasn't spent and it was all debt fueled.
So what did that do?
Most of it ended up in the market, which sent housing prices and stock prices skyrocketing.
It's great if you own a house.
It's great if you're an incumbent.
It's great if you already have stocks.
But if you're trying to get into the market, it.
It just took up the price of everything.
We need churn. When you bail out the baby boomer owner of a restaurant, all you're doing is robbing opportunity from the 26 -year -old graduate of a culinary academy that wants her shot.
The reason I get to live the life I lead and I have economic security is that in 2008, we bailed out the banks, but we didn't bail out the economy.
And Apple, Amazon, and Netflix were trading at somewhere between eight and 12 bucks a share each.
And I was coming into my prime income earning years.
I bought those stocks.
And now they're somewhere between $180 and $700 a share.
Where does a young person find disruption and churn?
Because the general viewpoint now is that a virus killing a million people would be bad, but baby boomers getting less wealthy would be tragic.
So we borrow the young person's credit card, we run it up, and we flush the market with capital and liquidity and bail out the boomers.
Also, we have a system that is, the demo in Democratic as a little bit is part of the problem in that old people keep voting themselves more money.
40 % of all government spending goes to people over the age of 65.
It's going to be over 50%.
Right now, currently, the average 70 -year -old is 72 % wealthier than the average 70 -year -old 40 years ago.
The average person under the age of 40 is 24 % less wealthy.
So there's this trope that young people are entitled.
I believe they're entitled to be enraged.
Pretty much every major fiscal policy is a transfer of wealth from young income earners to either older people or owners, so earners to owners, young to old.
As a result, it's working.
It's champagne and cocaine for people in my generation, not to say they don't have problems, but young people are really struggling.
Education is more expensive, and I'll wrap up here.
Housing is more expensive.
The primary means of starting to form a household, the primary lubricant of upward mobility education have exploded in cost.
So I think they're right to be really upset.
And I think it creates dissent and polarization and anger across our society.
Looking at life as things we can control and things we can't control and hearing that there's valid reasons to be upset, to be angry, to feel pain, what can an individual do today in order to transform that for themselves?
Well, there's things on a macro level.
I mean, the first is, and it sounds stupid, but vote, right?
Vote for people who are going to have some sort of fiscal responsibility.
Vote for politicians who are going to do things like a child tax credit.
Vote for people who are going to try and create more housing permits so there's more housing.
If you're a graduate of an elite college that's grown its endowment 40 -fold, Harvard, but it's only increased its freshman class 4 % realize that firm or that organization is no longer acting like a public servant.
They're acting like a luxury brand.
My industry is really guilty of this.
When I applied to UCLA just down the street or down the hill, the admissions rate was 76%.
Now the admissions rate is 9%.
And people my age like that because it's taken the value of their degree up.
But how many times, Jay, have you heard people say, I wouldn't get into the college I applied to if I applied to now?
Well, that means your daughter's not getting in.
So we need to do everything we can to try and counter this rejectionist LVMH exclusionary strategy that has benefited the incumbents.
On an individual level, you still have as much or more agency in America as a young person than any young person anywhere in the world.
You might argue, well, maybe someone with a good education in India with the kind of updraft of the growing economy there.
But on average, you really wouldn't want to trade places with any other young person.
And while things are maybe more difficult for young people than they were for my generation, especially my demographic, a white heterosexual male born in California in the 60s kind of hit the lottery, right?
Free education came of age during the internet.
But I do think young people in America have it better or have more agency than almost any young person in the world.
And you know what it is.
It's about getting certification.
It's about being kind.
It's about making alliances with people.
It's about workshopping your 20s.
It's about trying to find something you're good at that you could be great at.
It's a lot of hard work.
It's putting aside certain myths around, in my opinion, balance.
I can just tell there were 10 or 20 years in your life where I'm guessing you did pretty much nothing but work.
It's not easy in a competitive economy to be outstanding.
And then surround yourself with people who make you feel good about yourself make sure that you're as mentally fit and then make small investments when you're young both in terms of taking three five percent of your income when you're a young person putting it out of your hands into low -cost index funds
such that when you're my age even if you don't go double platinum or have a hit podcast you're still economically secure and also make those types of little investments in relationships because there's a trope or a myth that very successful very wealthy people crawled over other people this populist
bernie sanders elizabeth warren argument it's not the majority of very exceptionally successful and wealthy people are generally generally jay high character people because the best way to get ahead is to put yourself in a room of opportunities even when you're not in that room physically you want to
be the guy or gal that people talk shit about positively behind your back right you want to to be the person that thinks, oh, my firm is hiring and I know Jay's looking for a job.
And I like Jay. I'm emotionally invested in his success.
I'm going to put him in a room full of opportunities.
So just as we talk a lot about the power of compound interest and how $1 ,000 at 22 can grow to be $80 ,000 when you're my age, small acts of kindness, looking out for people, trying to do them a solid, staying in touch, recognizing that they, you know, are you all right?
Yeah, I'm fine. No, really, are you all right?
Those types of investments, I just went to a 60th birthday of two good friends who are my roommates.
We met when we were 17 and 18, freshmen at UCLA.
And just like the affection, the bonding, the joy we've registered over the last 40 odd years, it's just so incredibly rewarding.
And I instinctively, not strategically, but instinctively made those types of investments when I was a young person.
And also just now, Scott, for everyone who's listening or watching, Scott turned up in my house and saw Amazon deliveries outside and carried them into the home talking about high character and being thoughtful and sweet.
I was very touched by that.
You definitely didn't have to do that and you went out of your way to pick them up.
And so you definitely practice what you're preaching right now.
Oh, thanks for saying that.
No, of course. Of course.
I genuinely recognized it.
But I want to talk about both.
I wanna talk about the softer internal mindsets and habits that you're speaking about.
I also wanna talk about the more strategic, systematic focuses people can do.
Let's start with the more tangible.
I was talking to my team about this before you came because I love getting into everyone's heads about what's everyone worried about?
What's everyone struggling with?
What are we thinking about?
And one of the big things that came up was, I don't know how to save.
Like a lot of young people say this to me today.
Like, I don't even know what saving means anymore.
They've not been trained in it.
Their education system let them down.
Maybe their parents keep saying save, save, save, save, save.
But their consumption is high.
If someone's thinking about saving today, how do they create a framework for healthy and realistic saving?
Well, the first thing, you have to have something to save.
There's just no getting around it.
You've got to be able to make money.
And the best way to make a lot of money is by starting and making a little bit of money.
I coach a lot of young men.
And typically what I do on the first meeting is I tell them to unlock their phone.
and I say, I'm not going to judge you.
I'm on TikTok. I watch porn.
I'm not easily offended here.
And we're going to find eight to 10 hours a week out of your phone.
And it's ridiculously easy with young men to find eight or 10 hours on their phone between Robin Hood, Twitter, what have you.
And we reinvest it.
And the first thing is we got to figure out, okay, for me, it's physical fitness right away.
We're going to spend two to four hours a week getting strong, especially I coach mostly young men but i think one of the keys to mental health is feeling as if when you're a young man that you could walk into any room and if shit got real kill and eat everybody or outrun them i think that should be
your goal i think it's instinctual i think it'll make you feel strong i think it'll make you feel kinder the people who break up fights at bars are usually big strong men the second thing you have to start making some money i don't care if it's flipping on your smartphone to be a lift driver or a task
rabbit, going to CVS and stocking shelves, even just a little bit of money gives you a taste for the flesh of money and gets you thinking about different ways to make money.
And capital in a capitalist society is intoxicating.
So we have to figure out a way to start making some money.
Once we start making some money and we have a salary and we work at an organization, 98 % of people will spend everything that comes through their hands, You live in a society where there are the most impressive people and the most impressive technology ever in the history of our planet have one mission,
and that's to figure out a way to present you with the ultimate offer at exactly the right time.
Oh, heading to Capo for a girls weekend?
Wouldn't you like to upgrade from economy to economy comfort?
Oh, only two of these rooms left.
How about upgrade now to the special spa package?
Oh, you just bought a pair of on -running shoes.
What about these Bomba socks?
It is nearly impossible for a young person to save money if it comes through their hands, if they get their hands on it.
You want to figure out a forced saving.
So everything from like the Acorns app that rounds up and puts the money automatically into a low -cost index fund, find out what government programs there are in your nation where if you sign up, the money is taken out of your check.
Maybe it's matched by the government.
Maybe it's matched by your employer, 401k, IRA, Roth.
first thing you do find someone smart at your company talk to your tax advisor go on ai and say what forced savings mechanisms are most tax advantaged that i can participate in at an early age because you really just need to take somewhere between call it three and five percent of your income if you
start when you're in your 20s and in the uk they round up from four thousand pounds a year to $5 ,000.
There are tax -deferred programs here such that you don't get clipped 20%, 30%, 40 % each year.
So the first thing is I got to start making some money.
The next thing is I'm going to lean into my advantage.
Your advantage when you're young, everyone has capital.
When you're young, you have more human capital.
You have more time than financial capital.
So I'm going to lean into that advantage.
And if I can just figure out the discipline of getting $1 ,000, two thousand five thousand bucks a year into one of these programs i'm not going to touch it i'm not going to think about it i'm not going to trade i'm going to focus on what i'm good at by the time you're my age you're going to be fine
but the easiest way to do that is a forced savings plan you have agency make some money and immediately i don't care if it's you start off making a couple grand a month as a task grabber whatever it might be i'm going to take two or three percent of it and find a program such that it never gets into
my hands and goes into a low cost diversified index fund.
One of the things I love you talk about in the book, The Algebra of Wealth is you talk about the challenge we have with our goals.
The first is we set unrealistic goals and then they're super long term.
So we say things to ourselves like, well, in the next 12 months, I'm going to save $12 ,000.
And it's like, we've never even saved $500.
And you talk about this need to set a goal of like, this is how much I'm going to save this month.
Like this is where I'm going to start.
And it's so interesting you talk about time and your work with young men, because I think time is so interesting because I think today most people would rather finish their work day and we'd love to just switch on a show or doom scroll on TikTok.
And so there is more time that could be engaged in creating other revenue streams, et cetera.
But what is really blocking us from doing that?
I think everyone knows they have time.
They know they want to make more money, but there's something there that's just blocking us from getting activated.
What have you found that is?
So I can't speak for the whole population, but generally speaking, the lack of executive function, the part of the brain that controls that is the prefrontal cortex, the kind of gas on, gas off.
The part of the brain that says, stop playing video games and start studying, that is maturing later and later in boys.
It's somewhere between 12 and 18 months behind young women.
So in many ways, a senior in high school, a woman who's applying to college, and a young man who's applying to college, senior in high school, the woman is competing against a 16 -and -a -half -year -old.
And as a result, fewer and fewer men are going to college.
And we're in an economy where 40 years ago, one in three jobs needed a college degree.
Now it's two in three.
Women are correctly and justifiably, especially young women, blowing by young men.
They have more discipline.
They have higher EQ.
you quite frankly they're just more more mature I say this in my own company I have a lot of young people disproportionate amount of young people working my organization there's some very talented young men but I would describe them kind of as dopey almost a little boyish I have some young women in my
firm who could be the junior senator from Pennsylvania women are just maturing earlier so there's certain biological things that get in the way of men having executive function I also think that there's so much temptation i think there's a little bit of belief of kind of yolo you know this is it live
for today i also think it's harder for them to save just because everything's so goddamn expensive so it's discouraging for them it's like okay i'm working my ass off and i can barely pay for my barely pay for my rent so just as a this is anecdotal evidence but it largely represents the economy when i
got out of business school the average salary was a hundred grand you know i went to a quote -unquote elite business school went to the Haas school the average house in san francisco costs 280 000 so 2 .8 times the mba salary now the kids at Haas still in elite business school incredible compensation average
200 grand right out of business school but the average home in san francisco is 2 .1 million why because as soon as you have a house you become very concerned with traffic and you start showing up to local review meetings and making sure no new housing is built which is great if you already own a home
I'm going back to the rejectionist strategy.
But it's almost impossible now.
It's almost like saving for a home is out of my reach.
The travel industry has boomed.
And my thesis is that you have millions of young people who are going into their mating years and decided, let's save for a house.
Let's save for a house.
Then pre -pandemic, a house is $290K.
Post -pandemic, it's $420K.
Interest rates went from 3 % to 7%.
Average mortgage went from $1 ,100K to $2 ,200K.
all of a sudden the american dream has become a hallucination of fantasy fuck it i'm getting a backpack and i'm going to do an airbnb in bangkok and travel stocks hotel stocks airline stocks have all boom because i think young people have given up on the american dream of owning a home but circling
back to your question it's i think recognizing you have agency realizing that this is hard it's hard work you're working an economy build a kitchen cabinet of people who can advise you it's very hard to read the label from inside of the bottle You got to work hard.
There's just no getting around it.
I don't care how talented you are.
Beyonce works her ass off.
I mean, it just, people who want to be successful and influential have to work really hard.
And then what I would also say is that forgive yourself.
My first job out of college was investment banking.
I hit the lottery. Everyone was super impressed.
I hated it, and I wasn't good at it.
And within two and a half years, I was back living at home with my mother, unemployed.
That almost kind of devastated me.
But my kind of success comes from my ability to endure rejection and move through it, to mourn and move on.
So if you're in your 20s and you're thinking, I'm not making a lot of money, I'm having trouble having a nice life, I'm not entirely sure what I want to do, then you are exactly where you should be.
Your 20s are for workshopping.
Forgive yourself, but keep trying.
Reach out to people for help.
Show up, get the easy shit right.
Show up early. Be courteous.
be kind you know think about how do i get more certification and then the moment you lock in on something that you're good at and could become great at go all in on it and i come from the attitude i'm assuming people want real economic security some people say scott i'm not like you i don't want to
live to work i want to work to live fine but have an honest conversation with yourself around what you need to make to have a reasonable life if you want to live in la and you want to have a nice lifestyle you just have to make a shit ton of money there's just that's just the reality but if you say
i'm not all about work then fine do you want to move to santa clarita do you want to move to the inland empire do you want to move to somewhere in oregon fine but have a sober conversation with yourself what are your expectations and realistically what kind of commitment and trade -off are you going
to need to get there what i tell young people is you can have it all you just can't have it all at once i have amazing balance right now and looking around I think you do but that's because I had almost none in my 20s and 30s and I don't you know this whole life I don't know much about you but the life
I lead now when I'm in LA I didn't even know it existed in my 20s because I'm like I need to make money and I I'm not I'm not exceptionally talented so the thing I can control is how hard I work and there's no getting around it.
It'll cost you some relationships.
It cost me my hair.
It cost me my first marriage.
And this sounds crass, but it was worth it because now that I have kids, now that I'm older, I have a lot of balance.
So it's a sober conversation.
It's a kitchen cabinet.
It's forgiving yourself.
It's trying to find something you're good at.
It's a lot of things.
More than anything, more than anything, forgive yourself.
If things aren't working out in your 20s, boss, that's where you should be.
Very rarely do people come right out of college and go like this.
Yeah, so well said.
So much to unpack there, Scott, and thank you for kind of giving us so many points to check with.
The first thing I want to ask you is, should younger people today even aspire to own a home or is the American dream, that version of it, dead?
It's situational. First off, keep in mind the term, the American dream was invented by the National Realtors Association and the Real Estate Association that wants to keep pumping up the price and the commissions on homes.
If you live in a place like Los Angeles, where I believe, quote unquote, the yield, that is the ratio the cost to rent something relative to the price to buy it it actually makes more financial sense for most people to rent here makes sense for most people in new york to rent you're in st louis you're in uh
lansing michigan it probably makes sense to try and save some money and buy and take advantage of first -time homebuyers credits what have you so you want to find someone who quite frankly if you're not good at math is better at math than you and say does it make sense for me to buy a home?
Because you might be better off.
The co -host of my podcast, Raging Moderates, is a very successful woman.
Her name's Jessica Tarloff.
She's the Democrat on the most popular cable news channel show called The Five.
It's four Republicans and Jess.
And she makes really good money.
Her husband makes really good money.
And they've decided not to buy in New York because they think putting the money in the market will give them more financial security.
So greatness and great decisions are in the agency of others, I would talk to people, but don't feel as if you're a failure if you don't own real estate.
Because real estate right now as a percentage of GDP, as a multiple on rents, is at historic highs.
Meaning that you really don't want to be house poor.
You really don't want to go all in because the National Realtors Association is telling you you're a failure if you don't own a home.
Because the last thing you want to do is just have no money for nothing else the market corrects and your house isn't worth the debt on it that is devastating emotionally and financially and from a credit standpoint so it's situational at the same time there's no getting around the psychic there is some
psychic income I remember you know before I got married I was thinking about I wanted to commit to somebody you buy a house you get a dog it's sort of these emotional commitments and also it's there is a certain pride of ownership.
I think it's situational.
Where you are in life, how much money you have, the city you're in, but buying a home is meant to be an enhancement to your life.
It's not a suicide pact and it may not be right for everybody.
Yeah. I think what it gave people as a symbol was something to pursue, right?
We started talking about, you go to college, you get a degree, you get a job, get married, you get a house, you have kids.
It became one of those tentpole things.
And so now when you take it out, it's almost like, what should people be pursuing?
If you got married, you got a good job, you're working, you're with your partner, it's almost like people think they have to pursue.
It's almost like the assumption that you have to have kids.
It's the same assumption of, oh, well, we have to buy a house.
So what should people pursue instead financially when it comes to financial security?
The goal is what I'll call wealth.
The goal isn't to be rich.
Rich is the things you see.
Wealth is what you don't see.
And your pursuit should be wealth or economic security.
And this is what wealth is.
Wealth is having passive income that's greater than your burn.
Two examples. I have a buddy who runs M &A for a bulge bracket investment bank, makes between $3 and $10 million a year, depending upon the market.
Because it's all current income, he pays 50 % taxes between his ex -wife, his home in the hamptons and his master of the universe lifestyle that he feels he deserves he hasn't saved a lot of money and he spends most of it and i know that firsthand he has a lot of sleepless nights wondering what happens
if the music stops he is not he is not wealthy my father who is 94 between his pension from the royal navy social security and he owns six washing washer dryer machines and trailer parks where he goes and collects the money with his walker he makes 52 000 a year He spends 48.
So he is saving money despite the fact that he's not working.
So his passive income is greater than his burn.
He is wealthy. So you want to put yourself on a track to being wealthy.
You want to say, realistically, I can control how much I spend.
I've been coaching this couple living in San Jose, and they're in their late 50s.
I talk a lot about young people, and they say, Scott, we're in our late 50s.
What do we do? How much money do you have?
What's your house worth?
and by the time they're 65 they're not going to have enough passive income to pay for their lifestyle i said well let's lean into our strengths here why are you in san jose and they said well we've always lived here i'm like well okay your kids are gone and you just mentioned you go to costa rica twice
a year why wouldn't you try and cut your burn 40 40 percent and move to costa rica and take that economic pressure away and sell your house here i think your kids would love to come visit you in Costa Rica.
So the question is, put yourself on a path using basic math and what you really think you're going to need in terms of passive income, such that at some point, ideally, it's by the time you're 40, it's usually not, but it needs to be by the time you're 65 or 70.
Because that release of economic anxiety frees you up to focus on what is really important, and that is deep and meaningful relationships.
So the reason why I am so much happier over the last 10 years than I was kind of the first 45 years of my life is that economic stress was always there for me.
I was raised by a single immigrant mother who lived and died a secretary.
I felt like there was a ghost following us around telling us we weren't worthy because we didn't have money.
Between college, student loans, the bomb crash and the Great Financial Recession, I just never had enough money to have passive income such that I was done.
And a lot of people never get there.
I got lucky. I sold my last company about 10 years ago for a lot of money.
Now, unless I really screw up again, which I've done a couple times, I can focus on my relationships.
The resting blood pressure of a child in a low -income home is higher than the resting to solid blood pressure of a kid in a middle or upper -income home.
I think the majority of divorces are not a function of infidelity or a lack of shared values.
It's those things, one or more of those things might happen.
And then again, the incendiary on it is financial stress.
Two -thirds plus of divorce filings are from women.
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When you bring up the word money, most of us kind of go blank faced.
We want to reach for a stress ball.
You can just sense that it's uncomfortable to talk about it because we're almost reminded of all the bills stacking up and all of our expenses.
and we spent too much on TikTok shop this week and, you know, the reality hits and we kind of don't want to talk about it, don't bring it up.
How do we get out of that stressful wiring?
And you talked about it even there with your background.
Like I grew up in a family where we didn't have the healthiest relationship with money because we never had enough or we always had just enough and that was good enough.
And that was always like, you know, you're just looking at your bank balance sitting at zero all the time.
Like, how do we rewire our relationship with money?
Because most of us have a stressful relationship with money.
Well, when you think about how they help people who are depressed, it's a combination of talk therapy and, if needed, some sort of pharmaceutical intervention.
I think mental illness or mental unwellness around money, I think we absolutely need to, one, have more financial literacy.
I think we should have a class called adulting in your senior year of high school that says, my kid can do derivatives, but I just figured out he doesn't understand the interest rate on his credit card so young people need a certain level of financial literacy also i encourage them to talk about money
with their friends it's especially hard for men women are disproportionately evaluated based on their aesthetics men are disproportionately evaluated based on their economic vitality so for a guy to say hey do you you know i lost a shit ton of money in the market should i sell it do i get a tax write
-off that connotes weakness they're worried that they're less attractive there's actually something very british that you might relate to and that is british people the best grade i understand in britain that everyone wants is you get really high marks but really low effort scores you're supposed to
be accidentally rich i i'm so i'm such a baller and i'm so great at what i do that i just accidentally slipped and fell on a ton of money no it's work you got to think about it you got to talk about it so i encourage people to talk to their friends and if you're comfortable this is how much money i'm
making this is how much i'm saving this is you know taxation is really important well what if i move to florida how much money would i save you know what if i buy a house now i heard there's something called 1031 exchange where i can roll into my next property tax -free talk about money get get really
good at it roger federer do you think he never talks about tennis talks about it all the goddamn time you do you want to be great at money most people say yeah I want to be great at money is anybody great at anything if I'm if I wanted to be an amazing evolutionary anthropologist would I never talk
about it would I never bring it up in conversation would I never want to talk to other people about evolutionary anthropology if you want to be good at money put down the facade and start talking to people about their investments how much money they make, what they do with their money, how they save
money, what they do to try and limit their spending.
I talk about stoicism.
See if you can find a practice where you get reward or a dope a hit from exercise or relationships.
Gamify saving money.
My junior year at UCLA, I was in a fraternity with mostly wealthy Jewish kids from the valley.
And there were five or six of us out of 120 guys.
And everybody knew who we were.
We didn't have any money.
We were always laying on our house bills everyone knew oh those are the poor kids right and one summer we all lived in the same apartment building and we gamified saving money and we had a whiteboard and we literally made a game out of it in the summer of 1985 i survived for 12 weeks on 78 bucks a week
including rent because if i didn't save 3 000 bucks by the fall i wasn't going back for my senior year in college because i didn't have wealthy parents and if you can gamify saving money with a partner, especially a romantic partner that you can be totally transparent with, God, that's powerful.
We're building something.
We're going to save a ton of money.
Can we save five or 7 ,000 bucks this year together?
And it's going to be 8 ,000 next year.
And then it's going to be nine.
And with compounding in five or six years, which will go really fast, we have 60, 80, 100 grand.
And having kids is, I think, the most rewarding thing it has been for me.
I didn't plan to have kids, but it was having kids with someone else and raising what feel like pretty good citizens.
But a close second was building economic security with someone else.
We had total alignment, right?
We're going to save.
We were transparent around our expenses.
We were generous with each other.
Oh, no, you should do that.
There's a very unhealthy dynamic sometimes in relationships.
This is sexist, but I found it to be true, where the dude uses money to control his spouse.
And the spouse turns it into a game of how much money she can spend without him knowing.
And fortunately, that's getting flipped a little bit or it's equalizing because women are doing so well.
Women under the age of 30 are making more money in urban centers, more single women own homes.
But there's still in my generation, this very weird dynamic between the sexes and money.
But going back to your original question, talk about it, understand it.
If you want to be good at it you got to get literate at it you want to bring it up with your friends and you start learning i spend four hours a week probably talking to other people about my economic well -being what tax loopholes there are where i should be investing i have a lot of real estate when interest rates
come down at what point do interest rates get low enough where i should be pulling a second out and putting it in the market knowing if i have a 10 -year mortgage over 10 years The market's usually up about 7 % to 9 % a year.
Does that make sense, right?
Think about it all the time.
You're the average of your five friends.
You've seen that study, body mass, politics, sports teams.
But what's more interesting is one of those five people will be more economically secure, much more economically secure than the other four, despite not making a lot more money.
You want to know those behaviors and those characteristics, and you want to model that person.
but this is something we all need to be more open about it doesn't make you less of a man you're not supposed to have a lot of money when you're young everybody screws up I've been broke twice in my 40s I was broke and that was really I was too ashamed to admit that to anybody else it was like well
you're supposed to be smart and great at what you do right so I think being a little bit more vulnerable being open about it and getting tips and you know kind of kind of rules are the road from other people.
Talk about it. Yeah.
One of the studies I looked at and you just brought it up here was that in 2024, 38 % of couples reported financial problems as the cause for divorce.
And it's what you talked about there of being able to talk to your partner about money.
What's a healthy way to bring up the subject, to connect with someone about it?
Because as you said, sometimes in the early dating phases, it's really uncomfortable to talk about it because because people feel you're a gold digger.
People feel that you're just after their money.
People are concerned that they don't have enough of it to talk about it.
But if you're actually getting into a committed relationship, how do we start having healthy and effective conversations about money?
I would say transparency in a budget.
You know, we kind of all have that one that sort of got away.
I was deeply in love with this woman who was in her residency to be a surgeon, and I was very serious about her.
And so I said, look, this is what I have.
And I kind of went through my assets, assets how I plan to make money what money I had where I'd lost money where I'd made money and then she was very transparent and said well you know my parents are wealthy so when they pass I'll get some money but right now I'll have is a ton of debt and I think
it made us feel really much closer to each other that kind of transparency so one I would say it's transparency and I would say it's regular check -ins and a budget I think what really screws up relationships is not financial mishaps, it's surprises.
Oh, you've been day trading and you've been going into some stock that your buddy at work said was good and you lost 20 % of our savings but it happened a year ago and you're telling me now?
So I think it's a good idea on a regular basis not only sit down and talk about budget but just say this is what's going on with us financially and go through kind of spending and just being very transparent with each other.
And also, not hiding the ball, right?
I think that sometimes people don't want to talk about a financial hit they've taken.
Like I said, I think the thing that screws up marriages is not only financial stress, but it surprises about financial stress.
Jesus, you've been spending this much money on this and you were trying to hide it from me?
We lost 30 % of our savings in this one stock and you didn't like, I check in with my partner and I say, this is how, this is where we are.
This is what I'm thinking.
I don't make a big investment without running it by her first.
She always says yes, but I want her to know because that way when it, if it doesn't go well, it was our, it's our problem.
It's our fault. So transparency, talking about it and a budget that you review together.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's great advice.
And I think that transparency point is so huge, because you're so right, surprises in any way in relationships are the biggest trust breaker.
And you're so right that it's not even that that person had an issue with what you were doing.
It's why you didn't tell them.
That's what really breaks it down.
You talk a lot about investing and focusing on your talents, not your passions.
And I think for a long time, we've kept hearing this language around, find your passion, follow your passion, chase your passion.
And yours is, well, no, talent, talent, talent.
First of all, let's talk about why talents over passions.
And second of all, a lot of what I hear is, Jay, I don't even know what my passions are and I don't know what my talents are.
Where do I go? So first thing, why talents over passions?
And second, what do I do if I don't know what my talents are?
Yeah, we get two types of speakers at NYU, really accomplished, impressive people and billionaires.
We've just decided once you have three commas around your net worth, you have insight into life.
and they always end their speech or most of the time end their speech with the following advice which i think is just terrible advice for young people follow your passion first off recognize the majority of people telling you to follow your passion are already rich and they made their billions and iron ore
smelting this is your job your job is to find your talent such that you could be in the top 10 within 10 years and then maybe in the top 1 in 15 or 20 years and this is the hard part or the important part in an industry that has a 90 plus percent employment rate which by the way is 90 plus percent of industries
young people's passions are often conflated with their hobbies I would have liked to have been quarterback for the Jets I have a pretty decent arm a good plane good field of vision I'm 6 '3 190 I thought I was out of central casting to be the quarterback for the jets once i got to ucla i was fortunate
to know this is what real athletes look like and you're not one of them so the majority of people don't end up and what the quote -unquote their passion is because what they realize is that's a hobby art dj modeling athletics nightlife you know designing a jewelry line the passion industries attract
so much human capital that it drives down the return on your human capital.
There are 180 ,000 actors and actresses in SAG -AFTRA.
These are the most talented creatives in the world.
And it's not easy to get a union card.
Last year, 83 % of them didn't qualify for health insurance because they didn't make $23 ,000.
So recognize that if you're able to find something you're really good at, and it's in an industry with a 90 plus employment rate, this is what's going to happen.
Passion comes from mastery and the economic accoutrements of mastery of an industry.
Now, no one grows up thinking, I'd like to be, I'm passionate about tax law.
But if you have the skills and the discipline to get a law degree and you understand the intersection between the law and economics and you know how to handle clients, the best tax lawyers fly private and have a larger selection set of mates than they deserve.
in the top 10 or 20 percent.
To have those sorts of accoutrements in a vanity industry, you have to be in the 0 .1 percent.
So I don't want to crush anyone's dreams.
If you want to be a DJ or you want to be an athlete, fine.
But ring fence it and say, unless I get flashing green lights that I'm definitely in the top 1 percent.
And you'll know if you're the next messy.
People are going to tell you.
You'll know. If all of a sudden you start getting invited to Vegas to DJ and people are willing to pay you to DJ, you'll know.
You'll know pretty fast.
But if you don't get those green lines saying you're going to be in the 1 % really fast, maybe workshop something else that's not in the romance industry and try and become good slash great at it.
The guy who's installing my soapstone counter is the marble guy or the granite guy in Marlabone.
This is an Iraqi immigrant.
We got to know each other.
He told me about what he does.
knows everything about marble, knows everything about it.
Goes to the quarries, can talk about the veining and everything.
Immigrated from Iraq about 18 years ago, started working for a guy, got super into it.
He makes 2 .3 million pounds a year, top line.
He himself makes 800 ,000 pounds a year as the soapstone marble guy.
And he's become passionate about it.
The relevance, the accoutrements, the economic security.
And this is what you become passionate about, Jay.
you become passionate about taking care of your kids.
You become passionate about helping your parents out.
You become passionate about taking really nice vacations with your partner.
Anything that provides you with that stuff, you're going to become passionate about.
So what I would suggest is passion comes from mastery, artisanship, ninja -like command of something, and also something that provides you with the economic security that a capitalist society affords you an amazing life.
So find your talent.
That's your job. If you're good at something, you can become great at it in an industry with a high employment rate.
Trust me, trust me, you're going to find passion.
And for those people who are sitting there going, well, I don't know what I'm talented at.
I don't even know what my talent is.
I don't really have anything that anyone's ever validated, noticed, recognized, and pretty average at everything.
Where do they start?
I think you want to build a kitchen cabinet of people who you can sit down at any job, first off, don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Just start. When I was 18, I thought I was going to be a pediatrician.
Chemistry disavowed me of that.
Thought I was going to be an athlete when I was 15.
UCLA disavowed me of that.
Thought I was going to be an investment banker at 22.
Disabused me of that.
Thought I was going to be a healthcare consultant when I was in business school.
And then I thought, I don't know if I'd be any good at this.
I ended up in strategy and then analytics.
I didn't know what strategy and analytics were.
So try stuff. Be honest with yourself.
Don't give up at the first line of, I don't like it.
Well, that just might be work.
But you'll start to get feedback on what you're good at and what you're not good at.
And workshop it. Keep investing.
Recognize it's hard to be great at anything.
But you'll probably get a feel.
I mean, at some point, you recognized you're a good storyteller.
You have a nice voice.
You're good at this, right?
And I imagine there was some things along the way you recognize, I'm not that good at this I'm trying hard and I'm not that good I tried really hard to be a good investment banker I had no natural skills at it I just wasn't good at it and then when I got into consulting and I took data and could frame
it into a story where CEOs and CMOs would listen to me and say you know bring in bring in that I started a strategy firm called Profit bring in them see what they think I'm like wow we're good at this maybe even we can be I'm great at it so another again group a kitchen cabinet people who can talk to
you people who can advise you get started workshop okay it's not the perfect job I'm not sure I'll be passionate about it no no no if you can find something better great until then get in the game see where the opportunities are and you'll start getting market feedback on what you're good at or not good
at and you'll start to click in wow I really I'm pretty good at this and ask people around you ask for reviews the compensation I think I provide my younger employees with.
I'd like to think I'm good at this.
Maybe I can be better as I talk about it.
It's not only monetary.
What young people need is feedback.
If you are in a position as a boss to say, you know what?
You're great with new employees.
You make them feel welcome.
Well, should I consider a career in recruiting or HR?
You're great with clients.
Jesus Christ, can you sell?
You like to drink? You're ridiculously obnoxious in a funny way people want to go out with you when they're in town boss you should be in sales you should be selling and you got a decent iq you should be selling database software for oracle or crm software for salesforce because you're going to make
a half a million bucks by the time you're 30 taking people out and establishing relationships get feedback workshop stuff but you'll start to absorb stuff but you're never going to find out you're good at cricket unless you pick up a mountain you're just not going to find out so try as many things as
possible. Surround yourself with people and give you an honest feedback, and keep workshopping stuff.
Don't be afraid. Again, forgive yourself.
If you're not a good investment banker, you're not cut out to be a doctor, you're not going to be an athlete, that's okay.
It's out there. Just keep showing up.
Keep showing up. Keep trying, and you will hopefully find that thing.
I don't want to say it's a guarantee.
I think some people never find anything they're great at, but in this economy, you should be able to find something you're at least good at.
Yeah. I appreciate what you were sharing about the diverse roles you've had.
And again, your mantra, forgive yourself.
And I look back at life as thinking that it would be about finding or discovering the thing.
And I realized it was so much more about collecting and connecting.
I think that's right.
It was like collecting ideas, collecting skills.
And then at one point they all seemed to connect, even though, you know, in the famous words of Steve Jobs, you can't connect the dots looking forward, you only can looking backwards.
And so now when I look back at my life, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember doing work experience when I was like 15 years old and I was told to cold call 300 companies.
And I had no idea what a cold call was or what we were selling, but I was trained to do it.
And it gave me an amazing experience to deal with rejection.
And out of the 300 companies I called, I think 297 said no, but the three that said yes, just gave me this exhilarating feeling.
And then I worked at Morrison's stacking shelves and doing, you know, extra database management work in the warehouse.
And I remember what overtime felt like.
And I knew I got paid 1 .5 times as much when I, when I worked at extra and I was like, oh, okay, that's what overtime feels like.
And then I remember working in retail and I knew if I could sell a card to the customer to collect points, then I would get 10 pounds extra on every card.
And it was just fascinating to me that all of those experiences, and I worked as a consultant at Accenture too.
And again, I don't think I was that great a consultant by their definition, even though I did very well inside the organization.
I picked up so many skills when it came to negotiation, presentation, deck building, understanding the needs, interests, and concerns of our clients and what they were trying to achieve.
And none of that was my purpose.
And none of that was my field of excellence.
I was not great at any of those things, but all of those skills have become so valuable today.
I love the way you say that because when I look back on investment banking, it wasn't a failed experiment because it had taught me attention to detail.
It taught me to get up early and put on a tie.
It taught me sort of how to read a room.
It taught me how to write a proposal.
It taught me a little bit about the credit markets because I was in fixed income.
What you said about being in the services industry or working jobs at Morrisons, that is really important because it gives you a sense for, one, no one owes you a living.
Showing up, working hard, getting along with people, developing a sense of grit.
The job you were talking about, the sales job, I think everyone should be in a job where they endure, they deal with the public because they realize that a lot of people aren't nice and you have to navigate that or they're just not having a bad day or they're just not having a good day but also the and this is the key
to my set success is my ability to endure rejection you know if you want to score above your weight class economically or romantically get out a big spoon and get ready to eat shit because i applied to nine business schools i got into two i have i in high school i ran for sophomore junior and senior class
president i lost all three times And based on my track record, I decided to run for student body president where I went on to wait for it, lose.
I have had a lot of women tell me they're not interested in dating me.
I have sent out thousands of emails to potential clients for my strategy firm.
I have pitched hundreds of venture capitalists on my way to raising money.
And the reason why I am wealthier than your average bear and get to spend my life with someone who on a risk -adjusted scorecard is exceptionally higher character and much more attractive than me is because I was never afraid to endure rejection.
I always had the ability to endure rejection, mourn, and move on.
So if you aren't willing to endure rejection, if you aren't willing to take those types of risks, my current partner, I met at the Raleigh Hotel in South Beach.
She was there with a friend and another guy, and I promised myself I was going to speak to her.
I was very drawn to her before I left.
Went out to get my car at the valet.
Got angry at myself.
Went back, walked right up to them and said, hi, I'm Scott.
Where are you guys from?
And now our oldest son's middle name is Raleigh.
You got to be willing to endure rejection.
And here's the thing, most people aren't.
Most people will never invest in their own company.
They're too scared to lose money.
Most people will not go up and speak to a stranger.
This is something I force my boys to do when we're out.
I'm like, you gotta speak to at least one stranger.
My oldest one has no problem with that.
My youngest has a little bit more of a difficult time.
But the ability to open, the ability to call somebody.
When you were calling, don't call me again.
So what I think you're saying is I should check back in two weeks, right?
I mean, I can't imagine how much shit You must have eaten starting a podcast, right?
I mean, it's not. I got to start one with a co -host who already had a following.
Like, you're some kid out of Accenture starting a podcast, right?
I mean, it's just a lot of rejection.
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Yeah, we sent personalized letters and videos to a hundred people that we really wanted on the show and every single one of them said no in year one.
And over the last five years, every single one of them have been on the show bar three maybe.
And it just showed me that there was such a need to just be okay I mean I have a list of everyone always asks me who's your ideal podcast guest and I'm a big soccer fan we were talking about football earlier and I've supported Manchester United since I was a kid and Cristiano Ronaldo is my goat and you
know I have a list I have a history of DMs to Cristiano Ronaldo that he has never seen let alone responded to and I can't wait for the day he sees them you're just following the wrong club Bukaya Saka or Col Palmer I think they would come on the show you gotta go Arsenal or Chelsea That's your fault.
Yeah, that's my fault.
That's my fault. It's the pain.
I'm asking for the pain.
But no, I couldn't agree with you more.
And I love this mantra that you keep repeating, forgive yourself.
And it's such a powerful one.
And you are going to make mistakes.
You are going to break things.
You are going to get wrong.
Maybe even one of those clients is never going to want to work with you again.
And that's all going to happen.
And I think we live in this protective space of like, I never want to get anything wrong.
I never want that person to ever say, oh, I was too pushy or too nudgy.
And it's like, well, they might.
And they probably will anyway.
Someone will. And is that worth letting go of this amazing life that you envision and what you want to create?
The only thing you can, or the only thing I feel like I can guarantee any young person is a certain amount of joy and a certain amount of tragedy in their life.
And the ratio of the two is a function of a lot of things, mostly when and where you're born.
But what you want to do is try and set yourself up for so many deep and meaningful relationships that those ratios of joy to tragedy are much greater.
So forgive yourself, but there's some great research.
My colleague at NYU, Adam Alter, who has a joint appointment at the business school and in the psychology department, has done a ton of great research on end of life.
He goes into palliative care facilities and he interviews people on their biggest regrets.
and people get a lot of perspective at the end.
They're never gonna walk on the beach again.
They're never gonna hang out with their, really spend time with their loved ones.
They're never gonna work again.
Never gonna go to a sporting match, what have you.
Never take their dogs for a walk again.
So they don't have a lot to lose, a lot of perspective.
And their biggest regrets kind of come down to three things in reverse order.
Number three, they wish they'd spend more time with their friends.
Number two, they wish they'd led the life they wanted to lead not the life their church or their family wanted to lead or society was you know telling them to actually turn away but their number one regret is they wish they'd been less hard on themselves they wish they've been kinder than themselves
because when you look back on your failures made a bad investment this person didn't love me back as much as i love them i got fired i had a business fail when you look back at the end and you have real perspective you're going to be more upset about the way you responded than what actually happened
to you life isn't about what happens to you it's about how you respond to what happens to you and recognize that emotion the present value of emotion is enormous in the moment your disappointment you're going to look back and think the only thing you're gonna be upset about is how upset you were at it.
On the flip side, when things are going really well, also recognize a lot of that isn't your fault.
You got lucky. You're in the right place at the right time.
You had someone take an interest in you and work and promote you.
You had a stock skyrocket.
Are you a great investor?
No, you're lucky. And you're never more prone to a big mistake, professionally or personally, than after a big win.
Because you start believing it's you.
And the time when you have a great investment, you have great relationships, what you want to do is try and pull in your horns a little bit and be a little bit humble and as grateful as you can be.
Recognizing luck has been on your side.
And like I said, if you want to lose a lot of money, start believing that your great year in the market is because you're just really good at investing and you should lever up because you're that smart no you're sticking your chin out i love that advice especially the humility part and it's so interesting
yeah i remember reading a study that said that most founders who exit they make their worst startup investments for the next two years that follow their exit and it's that same feeling of you start thinking it's you i wanted to ask you a lot of people right now are trying to decide between whether they
double down on their career at the company they're at or the organization they're at all have multiple revenue streams or side hustles and things on the side, how would you encourage people to evaluate where they put their efforts?
So another thing I've gotten shit on TikTok for, I hate side hustles.
So if you're in a side hustle, that means a side hustle is a temporary means of investigating something else should become your main hustle.
The way you get wealthy in economic security is you find a professional activity that you're good at, that you become great at, and you go all in on it.
Because the difference, success is in the last 10%.
So the guy or gal that applies 90 % versus the guy or gal that applies 100%, the latter is going to get promoted faster, get options awards, just make more money, have recruiters calling them.
Success is that extra oomph.
If you are doing a lot of side hustles, it's very, very difficult to be great at your main hustle.
So fine, if you don't like your main hustle, but you need it for health insurance, you need it for a base, and you want to to investigate other stuff but recognize the only way you're going to build real wealth and economic security is to go all in on one thing and i've never been successful i have two
kind of i'd say complexions professionally the first is i have balance i'm working 40 hours a week decent lifestyle that for me is called losing money i've never been able to aggregate wealth kind of having balance in my life and then there's a point in my life and i'm not proud of this but especially in my
early years were stressed out, working all the time, hard on my fitness, hard on my relationships.
That's when I'm usually making money.
The marketplace is competitive.
It demands a tremendous amount of you, but I think it's more or less like, okay, how do I have a sober conversation with myself?
How do I get forward fast?
The best companies in the world, I find, or the most aspirational companies are the ones that let you go flat out, that say to you, Accenture says to you the following, go flat out here.
Go just, I mean, okay, have a hobby, have a relationship, fine.
But go flat out here and we're going to give you your parents' life at the age of 30 or 35.
Those are generally the best companies in the world.
Some people decide they don't want that and they want to do something they're excited about, fine, or passionate about.
I get it. But if you're that guy or gal with three or four different side hustles, you aren't going to be wealthy.
That's a temporary means of finding your main hustle.
That means your main hustle isn't working.
But 110 % on anyone.
You know, Bill Gates didn't have a side hustle.
Maya Angelou didn't have a side hustle.
Maybe Maya Angelou needed a side job to pay for.
But at some point, she went all in on poetry and writing and oration.
That is greatness focus.
Yeah. I think that's such a great reminder.
And I remember looking at something a few years back, which was saying, if someone was going to invest, let's say me and you were going to invest a hundred hours into someone's development, how would they split it between what they're good at, what they're average at, and what they're bad at?
And the majority of people will say 30, 30, 30, right?
Like 33, 33, 33. And some people will say, oh, well, maybe I'll put 20 into what I'm good at, 20 into what I'm bad at, and then the rest into what I'm average at, 60 in the middle.
And going back to your point, the most successful people in the world will say 100 -0 -0 or 80 -10 -10 because they know that if they invest that much energy in something they're bad at, they'll only ever be average at it.
And if they invest in something they're average at, they'll only ever be okay at it.
But if you invest in what you're good at, you will become great.
And I think we've lost, well, not lost, I don't think we've ever had that focus because you graduate at 21, you know, from a regular degree, and then you never think you have to learn again.
I think there is a sense of we don't realize what good to great looks like, because you never, ever have to grow again according to the way the education system's set up, in the belief system, at least.
What have you noticed about people who in an organization, in a company go, all right, I'm going to be great here.
What do they do differently?
What do they build mindset wise and also physically?
So we had at L2, which is the business intelligence firm I sold 2017, we tracked everyone in a lot of data and we found, so, and this isn't the hallmark version of HR, but I found generally speaking, you have five or 10 employees that add 120 % of the value, and everyone else is negative 20.
And that's not to say they're not important, but they require a lot of management, a lot of attention.
They're good, not great.
You can't just scale with great players because great people know they're great, and they demand a lot of equity and compensation.
But when we identified that kind of dozen superstars, we said, what do these people have in common?
And the three things we found in common were uh one they had gone to elite universities and i hate saying that but they had generally gone to really fantastic schools two they had athletics in their background competitive athletics and three and i didn't write this down anywhere they were almost always
women so a female from yale who was on who was a gymnast there or a diver that was an automatic hire i'm not saying we didn't hire someone unless you had sports but we generally look for people at two of the three we also hired men but those were the three things we found people who had had some sort
of competitive sport in the background or had come from an enough adversity that they had to show a certain amount of grit and willingness to break through hard things people who pushed who had pushed themselves really hard you know i rode crew in college and crew is basically who is willing to endure
more pain and when I had my first job at Morgan Stanley I realized I wasn't as skilled I did poorly academically and I wasn't as skilled as my peers so I thought okay what can I control every Tuesday morning I'd come into work at 9 a .m.
and I wouldn't leave till Wednesday night at 5 or 6 p .m.
I'm like I was 23 I was super fit super strong I didn't have a relationship I didn't have dogs i'm like yeah i can work 36 hours straight and i could control that and now is that healthy do you want to be doing that when you're 33 or 43 when you have kids no but i could do that when i was young that grit
that perseverance so i look for i look for people who have overcome obstacles and also you want them to act like owners and you'll get a sense for that and that's why kind of the silicon valley mentality has worked in the sense that they give everyone equity, but people, and you notice it, people who see
a rapper on the ground and they pick it up, people who are thinking about clients, people who are trying to sell stuff, people who are at a social event and know someone who's good and recruit that person and then come up and say, Jay, this guy's the best video editor in the world.
He's a great athlete.
I don't care what we put him to work on.
She's just going to be amazing.
People who act like owners.
and then when you identify those people your job as a manager is to sit them down and say okay this is my path for you i've started a business intelligence firm i'm very capitalist about it i used to sit sit these 12 people down and say the following i've started this business intelligence firm i'm
going to build it to 20 million in revenues these firms go for between six and ten times revenues that's somewhere between 120 and 200 million i'm giving you one percent of the company you're going to be here four years you're going to work your ass off between, if we have this liquidity event, you're
going to make between a half a million and two million a year in equity.
Don't go anywhere. If I do well, you're going to do well.
And I would literally try and paint that accurate a picture.
I wanted to make sure that the 12 best people are the kind of the top were sort of nailed to the floor.
They just couldn't leave.
They're like, oh, this is like, I can't, the opportunity here is just too good.
But a bit of a word salad, it.
They demonstrate grit.
They act like owners.
And also generally speaking, want to help other people.
Good culture carriers.
You know, there are some people that are so good and they're competitive.
I've had a little bit companies that are sort of the Island of Misfit Toys.
People who are unusual or some, quite frankly, sometimes have some mental health issues.
I'm like, yeah, if they had it all, they'd be a Google.
We're going to figure it out for them because of that talented, but act like owners, good to other people and have demonstrated something in their background that shows grit.
Yeah. Yeah. I love those.
I, it took me a while as I was developing my team and I really feel like the people I have right now embody a lot of those characteristics that you're mentioning.
And I had to grow as a leader in order to attract those individuals.
And it wasn't something that it was like, Oh, you're just not finding the right people.
There There was work I had to do in who I had to become not just character wise, but quality and ability wise in order to attract that and also being able to nurture that effectively as well.
And so I think as much as so much of what we've been sharing today is about the person who's trying to work their way up.
So much of this is for leaders as well in order to how to adapt and be different.
I wanted to, Scott, focus on what you were mentioning a couple of moments ago about the palliative care and, you know, people coming to the end of their life.
And, you know, a lot of people do feel at the end of their life, I wish I didn't work that hard.
Yeah. You know, I shouldn't have put too much energy into work.
And almost sometimes I feel like that's a really easy thing to say at that time because it almost doesn't matter anymore.
Whereas when you're living, it kind of does matter.
It comes back to what you said earlier.
I remember saying to myself, and it goes back to, what was that language you used about having a sobering conversation with yourself?
Sober conversation.
Sober conversation with yourself.
I remember many sober conversations with myself.
and one of them was like, I can either feel like I'll have the myth of balance for the next 10 years or I can work my absolute socks off for the next three years and then be able to make more sense of everything.
And I chose the latter one.
And that three years probably looked like more like six years or whatever it was.
But that sober conversation was so powerful for me because I had to give up that myth of this perfect balance.
And you've kind of alluded to that in a lot of this conversation today, someone could be listening to both of us and just be like, yeah, well, I don't want to be that successful.
I don't want to be that competitive.
I don't want it to be that way.
I just want to have a good life.
I want to have a simple life.
How does that work with your philosophy and thoughts?
Look, this is my way.
It's not the right way.
Well, the advice I'm giving is there's some proximity bias.
I teach at an elite business school and when I survey these kids and I ask them what they expect to be making in five to 10 years, they all expect to be in the top 80 of them expect to be in the top 1 of income earning households by the time they're 35 i'm like okay unless you're a genius and crazy
talented you're just gonna have to work your ass off and then when they use words like balance i'm like come on now having said that some people don't want to live to work they want to work to live that's fine god love you some people say and i get these people on my podcast scott or they call in And
I just want to be a good citizen, work a decent amount, have a good relationship with my spouse and coach Little League and have a nice life and be an active member of my church.
I'm like, great, you can do that in America.
That's not going to work in L .A.
or New York. I mean, you got to move to a lower -cost neighborhood.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
There's a lot of really happy people.
The average household income now is $68 ,000 or $70 ,000.
And I bet a lot of those households are very happy.
They find strength and reward other places.
That's absolute. There's nothing wrong with that.
The majority of the young people I speak to expect to be making a lot of money.
Or they say, you know, I don't need to make a ton of money.
I just want to live in New York, have a nice place, be able to have a couple kids.
I'm like, okay, that's a million bucks a year.
I'm not talking about the way the world should be.
I'm talking about the way the world is.
and if you expect to live in an american city and be able to send your kids you know ensure you can absorb absorb a health shock give your kids the kind of life you want take nice vacations it's just a lot of the reality is it's just a crazy amount of money and you can control you want to lower your
burn move to a place with a lower cost of housing lower cost of living more power to you but the majority of the people i know in their 20s and 30s and again this is proximity bias because the people i hang out with expect to have a lot of influence and a lot of economic security and we all know that guy
or gal who is in great shape great relationship with their parents it just seems to rain money on them as fit has a food blog and donates time at the asbca assume you are not that person right assume that you probably have to go all in on something if you want to, I mean, LA, living in New York, you're
just going to have to be relatively successful to stay here.
You don't have a birthright to live in Los Angeles or New York or London.
And again, it comes back to that sober conversation.
Are you willing, are you really willing to make the trade -offs?
If not, you can be happy in Lubbock, Texas.
Most people can. And maybe you should be thinking about that, that these, but people who expect to have a reasonable life in these big cities?
Okay, let's be honest about what that's going to take.
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Scott, thank you for being so transparent and honest today.
This has been so useful, insightful, and I really appreciate your candor and honesty with so much of this because I think you are right that we can have really unhealthy false expectations and they can be reaffirmed and we can be on a wild goose chase for the rest of our lives, or we can get what you're
doing, which is just straight talking, really simple, insightful advice that hopefully gets people having that sobering, honest conversation with themselves.
It's really refreshing.
I think that it's very exciting to tell people to go chase stuff and do things and then helping people actually self -reflect and figure out whether they're ready for that and what that means and what that looks like is so important.
And I wanted to, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five.
And these questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
Okay. Although I will probably break my own rule.
Okay. So Scott Galloway, these are your final five.
The first question is, what is the best wealth advice you've ever heard or received or given?
Find your talent. Second question.
What is the worst wealth advice you've ever heard or received?
Follow your passion.
Question number three.
How would you define your current purpose?
To raise loving, patriotic men.
Beautiful. Question number four, is it possible or how is it possible to create peace with money?
Money is the means.
The ends is deep and meaningful relationships, and money should just provide an absence from the stress that can get in the way of forming and nourishing deep and meaningful relationships.
It's the means, not the ends.
I want to unpack the last two answers because I think there's some really interesting material there.
So it's so strange, isn't it?
So I'm sure you've heard this story that, I mean, it's been told for years about the, um, the, the fishermen and the businessman.
Yeah. Right. You've heard this story a million times.
It's like the, the fishermen goes to the businessman and the businessman looks at the fisherman and goes, what do you do all day?
And the fisherman says, well, you know, in the morning I go fishing and then the afternoon I have a siesta and then I hang out with my family and my friends and I drink a little and then I go to sleep and do it all over again.
And the businessman's saying like, that's what I want to get to.
It's just that I built this business and then sold it and did this.
And now I'm trying to come around.
Like, it's a cute story.
But in reality, it's, I don't know whether it stacks up, but there's this idea that people have that if I just want to spend time with people, why would I work so hard?
But you just said, actually, sometimes if we don't have money, it can actually block our relationships.
in what ways does scarcity or a lack of financial wealth create issues in our relationships?
Well, one, if you're a man, women aren't going to be that attracted to you.
Women are attracted to men for three reasons.
Number three, kindness.
Number two, intellect, and the fastest way to communicate intellect is humor.
But the number one source of attractiveness in men is the ability to signal resources.
You don't even have to have resources at that point, but you have to demonstrate a plan, that you're smart, you're hardworking and you have a plan.
But let me ask you a question, do you have a number where you're like, okay, this is my number and that's what I'm aiming towards?
Okay. So I did have a number and I actually think it's sort of healthy because what I became addicted to was relevance and money.
And when I sold my last company, I sold my last company for 160 million bucks.
And I thought, I'm going to go raise three to $400 million, start a private equity fund, raise funds two and three.
I have the contacts.
I'm in the sweet spot because I'd like to be a billionaire.
Scott Galloway billionaire just had a nice ring to it for me.
And then I had a friend pass away at a very young age and it kind of sent me into a little bit of introspection.
And I thought, all right, I've hit my number.
Unless I really screw up again if i get four to six percent on the money i have i can live the life i want i'm like well okay why do i need more money i'm on this hamster wheel what i've decided my worth as a man is a function of having more and what you realize and it's hard to get off this hamster
wheel the money's just ink in your pen and it can help you write new chapters it can make certain chapters burn brighter, but it's not your story.
This is a really good problem to have, but I think we have a virus in this nation amongst the super wealthy of hoarding money where they decide to keep, they want more money, they want more money.
What Daniel Kahneman, the economic historian, teaches us is that above a certain amount, you get no incremental gain for money.
You don't get less.
Billionaires are no less happy than millionaires, but they're no happier.
What I've decided is once I hit my number, I love data, every year I look at how much money I made.
And I either spend it all or I give it away.
And I want to be clear.
I'm not a virtuous person.
I love hanging out at the Beverly Hills Hotel.
I love taking my friends to Aspen.
I spend money like I'm a gangster in the 50s just diagnosed with ass cancer.
I love spending money.
And if that sounds obnoxious, it is.
And then anything above that, I give it away.
And I don't do it to be a good person.
I do it because it makes me feel masculine.
It makes me feel important and i just enjoy it i didn't i didn't give away a dollar until i was 40 and now i'm trying to catch up and i really enjoy it it's almost like consumption for me but having a number is really powerful because you can say what's required to get to that number and then just as
importantly once you get to that number get off the hamster wheel because this is the fear and this is what i was headed towards i'm an atheist i think at some point i'm gonna look into my kids eyes and know that our relationship is coming to an end but it's empowering for me it makes me think about what I
want at the end. And what I was barreling towards was the following, having a lot of money, having a decent amount of influence, but never having really been in the moment or have the depth and meaning that I could have had amongst my partner, my sons, and my friends.
And that all of a sudden I thought, you know, when my friend passed, i thought at the end you know you could just tell his relationships were everything and the money meant fucking nothing it was all about the relationship i thought okay the money has to be a means to the ends and that is deep meaningful
relationships but be careful it can turn into a suicide pack it can turn on you and you become so focused on the affirmation of strangers which i'm addicted to you become addicted to money that you spend way too much time thinking about additional money, success, relevance, and it comes at the cost
of your relationships.
I know so many incredibly impressive, successful people who don't get along with their kids, have a shitty relationship with their partner.
It's like, well, what's the point of all this?
So I think it's healthy to have a number and then to be very disciplined.
Once I have that number, I'm going to enjoy the money or I'm going to give it away.
You don't need to be a billionaire, you're not going to be any happier.
Beautiful answer. Before we go to the fifth and final question, I want to unpack the answer from before about you mentoring young men.
I feel like a lot of young men that I speak to, listen to, read comments from, hear from, you see a lot of pressure.
A lot of men these days feel a lot of pressure and a lot of stress, and some of them feel left behind, forgotten, confused as to their place in society based on so many other things.
At the same time, you're coming at from the angle that they need to take responsibility, there needs to be discipline, there needs to be accountability.
What would you say to any young men who are listening right now, watching right now, who feel a lot of pressure, who feel a lot of stress?
How would you address that?
Well, first off, just the reality of the situation.
Globally, no group has ascended faster than women the last 30 years.
More women are seeking tertiary education globally now than men.
And when you look at some nations that don't like women seeking a tertiary education, that really says something.
Three women graduating from college for every two over the next five years.
No group has fallen further faster in America than young men.
Four times as likely to kill themselves, Jay.
You're in a morgue with five people who have died by suicide, four of them are men.
Three times more likely to be addicted, 12 times more likely to be incarcerated.
We don't have a homeless problem, We have a male homeless problem.
We don't have an incarceration problem.
We have a male incarcerated.
We don't have an opioid epidemic.
We have a male opioid epidemic.
A lot of the jobs that they relied on with a lot of college education have been outsourced and maturing later.
There's a general sense that there's a lack of empathy for young men.
If you had any special interest group killing themselves at four times the rate as the control group, you'd move in with programs.
But because the advantage I received and my father received, there's a lack of empathy.
So the first is to recognize, I think that it is tough out there for young men, and to forgive yourself.
What I tell young men, when I go back to the thing about the phone, start getting into fitness, to start making some money.
And the third thing we didn't talk about, you have to get out of the house every day and be in the company of strangers building something bigger than yourself.
I don't care if it's work, I don't care if it's church, a sports league, a nonprofit, you have to be in the company of strangers, because here's the risk and what's happening to young men.
We have a new species developing of humans, specifically young men who are sequestering from society.
They're asocial. They're more prone to conspiracy theory.
And they are essentially becoming totally isolated, almost like a new form of asexual homo sapien.
And you can see how it's happening because the most talented, well -resourced people in the world are trying to convince young men that they don't need friends they can go on reddit or discord they don't need to put on a tie or go through the rejection of interviewing they can trade stocks or crypto
on robinhood or on coinbase they don't need to get in shape show humor endure rejection go out have a plan shower for god's sakes approach strange women be persistent show manners affection follow up because you got you porn so we have a group of men who've been convinced they have can have a reasonable
facsimile of life on a screen in an algorithm and we're producing millions of these men how many women have you met or how many times have you heard I know all these great women who are attractive high character professionally shit together and they can't find men no they can they just can't find any
men they want to date one in three men under the age of 30 has a girlfriend two in three women has a boyfriend why because women are dating older because they want someone who's more economically and emotionally viable so I really think this is a crisis I think there's a variety of things we need to
do around education reform that rewards more what I call boyish behavior and attributes I think we need more freshman seats at universities.
I'd like to see national service.
I was just in Israel at the Nova Festival Memorial.
I talked to a battalion of IDF soldiers, 180 young, beautiful, strong, thin people handling semiotic weapons, learning a skill in the company of each other, learning, meeting mentors, meeting friends, meeting mates, some of the lowest levels of young adult depression in a nation that has existential
threats all around it.
And I think It's because they, for two to three years, serve in the agency of something bigger than themselves.
I'd love to see national service.
We need to shove more money in their pockets, minimum wage of $25 an hour, child tax credit, more housing so they can afford a house, more vocational programming for men.
Where did wood, metal, and auto shop go?
So there are a lot of things we can do.
But what I would tell the young men is that, let's be honest, it's difficult out there right now for you.
Forgive yourself. It is hard for you.
You need to start making some money.
You need to get strong.
And you need to start getting out every day, out of the house.
Home is 7 hours a day, maybe 8 for sleep.
And you need to take your strong, young, incredible person out and start hunting lions, finding shit, making friends, finding mates, enduring rejection because you are a strong young man and you can handle it.
But you need to get out of the house.
you need to get out of the house.
Great advice. Great advice.
Love that, Scott. Fifth and final question.
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
No economic policy can ever get in the way of love.
You can't have family law court that ends up where dads, one in three dads have no contact with their kids in six years.
We need to reconfigure the laws.
We can't have people work 40 hours a week and be in poverty?
How can they be good dads or good moms?
How can they have a loving relationship with their spouse when they're in poverty working 40 hours?
Anything that gets in the way of deep and meaningful relationships has to be done away with or reconfigured.
This is the whole shooting match.
None of this matters.
Growth, AI, GDP growth.
None of it means a fucking thing if you can't have deep and meaningful relationships.
Anything that gets in the way of that, the parent -child relationship stresses marriages, results in teens engaging in self -harm, we need new laws, new laws.
Nothing can get in the way of that.
Scott Galloway, everyone.
The book is called The Algebra of Wealth, A Simple Formula for Financial Security.
The podcast is called The Prof G Podcast.
us. Subscribe if you haven't already.
Scott, thank you for your amazing work.
Honestly, thank you for taking the time to be here today.
I hope this is the first of many conversations.
I really hope I get to know you better and can add you to my kitchen cabinet.
It would be a true honor.
And honestly, I love the work you're doing.
I'm a big fan. And if I can ever be helpful, supportive in any way, then I'm right here.
So please know that.
I appreciate that. And congrats on all your success, Jay.
Thank you so much. Thank you, Scott.
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation.
If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential.
If you know you wanna be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.
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This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video, phone, or chat.
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