Hey, welcome to The Knowledge Project, I'm your host Shane Parrish, Curator behind the Fronton Street blog, which is an intellectual hub of interestingness, covering topics like human misjudgment, decision making, strategy, philosophy, and culture.
The Knowledge Project allows me to interview amazing people from around the world and deconstruct why they're good at what they do and get inside their head.
It's more conversation than prescription, it's about seeing the world as they see it.
The next episode is the second of two interviews that I conducted while traveling in Greece this summer.
The island of Santorini has not only breathtaking views but a fascinating history.
Traces of its first inhabitants have been linked back to 4500 BC.
In 1613 BC, the most powerful volcanic event in the last 10 ,000 years took place, completely destroying all the islands within a 60km radius.
It's been estimated that 90 billion tons of molten rock was injected into the air.
The sea was swallowed, the volcano and a massive tsunami swept across the Agrian Sea, along with the obvious devastation of nature, it's believed that the eruption also sealed the deal for most civilized nations on Earth at the time, the Minoans.
Thanks to the thick layer of ash caused by the event, the Bronze Age settlement in Santorini was so preserved that we're able to see how the prosperous area had once been with the elaborate drainage system, multi -story building, incredible wall paintings, furniture and vessels.
The site has as much of a significant importance as does Pompeii.
The island's main volcanic rock is mineral rich soil, the amazing climate has produced some incredibly unique wines, Santorini is known for some of the oldest vineyards in the world.
And we know that wine is one of my favorite topics.
On today's podcast, I speak with Peneotia, Peneotia is the director of domain Sagalis Vineyard.
Paris Sagalis, a mathematician with a goal to make Santorini Vineyard a world heritage site, focuses on grapes that thrive in Santorini.
She walks me through the different types of grapes and wines and explains why wine is so unique and special on the island of Santorini.
This was certainly a fun one, I hope you enjoy it.
If you're planning on visiting Santorini, I highly recommend you visit the Vineyard domain Sagalis and check out the distinctness of their wines.
Be sure to ask for a glass of your favorite.
So I'm here on the famous domain Sagalis and we're going to talk about the history of wine on Santorini.
Where did that all start?
For sure after the volcanic eruption.
We are talking about a continuous vineyard for more than 3000 years.
The huge volcanic eruption took place in 1620 BC, but this is what is now the production in Santorini, the volcanic shorey.
We are talking about, as I mentioned before, a continuous vineyard in Santorini with that philoxera never infected the vineyard.
So we're lucky we maintain in the same varieties.
As you know, the most important variety is called Assyrtiko and then we have Athiri, Idani, Gaiduria, Cazano, Greek and sorry white grape varieties and for the red grapes varieties there is Mavrotra -Hano and Mandilaria.
And so those have been in continuous production since?
Since, for more than 3000 years here.
That's insane. Insane, yeah, but hopefully right now.
Where does that put it on the world scale?
Is that one of the oldest places?
It's one of the oldest vineyards all over the world.
And how did they used to make wine?
I know number six here, the.
The history about the Nechteri.
Yeah. Yeah. You want to talk about that.
It's a nice story. I do.
I love that wine too.
I want to know more about how it was made and.
Oh, OK. Well, this is their own house wine.
This is the wine that they used to produce for their for their own consumption.
There was in Santorini, there was a big trade here.
We were under the Venetians for many years.
We were selling. They were selling their grapes in Russia or different places.
Italy, but for sure they would kept for their own consumption.
Their own house wine, as we call it.
I will tell you the small story behind that.
And if you are interested, also, I will tell you what we are not following for this small story.
We're talking about Assertico also in Nechteri, but it's a late harvest wine.
It's a wine that remains on the vine for 20 days to one month after the natural ripening of the grape.
It's when we say late harvest, you understand that we receive more residual sugar.
Right. And higher alcohol.
Because the grapes get bigger.
There is a sugar concentration and water evaporation because maintaining on the vine.
This is what they do.
They were all gathering together to do the Nechteri, not to sleep at night and press the grapes by feet.
We follow the same procedure, not by feet, but we are receiving the best quality of grape.
As you understand, it's the Freyran juice that you can receive.
If you press the grapes by feet, we do the same.
It's a hundred percent of Assertico, like they used to do to use Assertico.
It was the at least at least the 60 percentage of all the vinegars in Zandorini used to be something.
It used to be Assertico.
They were fermenting the wine, used to ferment and age in old oak barrels.
There was a tradition in making barrels, oak barrels in Zandorini, and they used to seal the barrels with cement.
Oh, wow. But they left a blank in between.
They didn't top up the barrels.
Why? Because they might leave it like that for at least three or five years.
So they might have a reformentation.
This is what we don't follow.
We follow exactly the same way.
Late harvest wine, only Assertico.
We're talking about higher alcohol and some residual sugar that you will find.
For sure, it's a dry wine.
We age our Assertico for at least 30 months to 36 months in old oak barrels.
The only difference we don't follow is that because of the climate conditions that are in our cellar, we don't leave the blank and we have we top up the barrels.
The most important is to remember that they used to produce nikterit with 17 degrees of alcohol and 20 degrees of alcohol, and they had the floor appearance, the floor that we can find also in the sherry, in the Spanish wines.
So the floor was protecting the wine and gave these oxidative aromas to their wines.
There is a great potential of aging in these wines because of the sugar content and because of the high alcohol content.
So if you are lucky on the island and taste an old nikterit from an old man, you will be amazed.
They still make it today.
Yeah, for sure. Are they still aging at 30 months, though, in an oak barrel?
Three years, five years.
Oh, man. That's been going on for hundreds of years.
Yes, exactly. Is this one high alcohol content?
What would be the alcohol content?
15 degrees. 15%. Wow.
That's insane. They must have had a great time after a couple of drinks of that.
You know, in Greece, you have birthday, you have a feast.
You don't have birthday, you have a feast.
But for sure, you drink wine.
So everybody tells me to try Santorini wine.
It's so distinct. It's so flavorful.
What have you found that you love about it in comparison to other Greek wines?
I will not compare it with other Greek wines because it's a totally different approach because of the soil, first of all.
With the lava. It's ash, sand, and pomestones.
Right. And that's why we haven't had the Phylloxera here because we have sand, a lot of content of sand, which is not a friendly environment for Phylloxera.
For me, the uniqueness of Sirtiko is the extreme flavors and the extreme potential for the wine.
You can work on this variety.
You can have it in dry version, in sweet version, in nichteri that I told you already.
Barreles, stainless steel.
Stainless steel on the leaves for 18 months or for 30 months.
So it's a grape that generally it has very fresh aromas of lemon, citrus, white skin peach, lime, grapefruit, although we are in a hot climate.
This is the extreme that I'm describing.
You see a very hot climate, but with aromas that you would receive from a cold climate like Shablis.
These aromas are more evident than occur in places that are colder than us.
We are Mediterranean in the Aegean Sea.
So we have these aromas.
By the time it starts aging the wine in the bottle two years after the bottling, we have very evident the minerality that you can smell on the wine.
There is an austerity in the aromas.
And when we're talking about the flavors in the mouth, we are talking about very refreshing wine.
With aromas of lemon, citrus, also the same aromas like in the nose, but with a very long lasting after days and high acidity.
So it refreshes your mouth and...
Is it the acidity that it refreshes?
Yes. That's what makes it refreshing.
That's interesting.
Also the aromas that are you there are evident in the mouth, but this is what makes it unique.
Very high acidity because our soil lacks of potassium.
So we receive wines with very low pH, grapes with very low pH, and it's very easy for us to produce wines with very high acidity content.
Can you walk me through from harvest to bottle in my hand the process of making wine?
Okay. It depends on what wine you want to produce.
You could say the simple Santorini that we are produce, 100 % of Assitico in stainless steel tongue.
The first bottling, the wine stops the fermentation and it can remain with a lease for two months and then we release it in the market.
You might want to produce wine that you want the wine to ferment and age in a new French oak barrels.
For example, this is a totally different approach because you receive wine after six months in the bottle.
Unfortunately, it needs time to remain also in the bottle in order to be very balanced and to consume.
Generally, what I believe is that Assitico in order to give you this extremity, I was telling you, and to be very balanced after the bottling needs at least one year in the bottle, and with a great potential of aging, at least seven years in the bottle.
We are starting from fresh aromas and then we continue with very mineral and nutty aromas.
We continue something like you could smell apricot, fresh apricot, but the wine can be five years old.
You can smell lemon peel or lemon pie.
It's how you make the procedure of fermentation and anything in order to be bottled and what you want to produce.
What's your favorite wine that you produce?
Endometriolas. Yes.
It's our single vineyard.
It's called Cavalleros, the man that rides the horse.
It comes from a single vineyard that it is stated in Merowigli, a high altitude village.
It's near Tufira. High altitude, we are talking about 350 meters.
Above sea level. Above sea level.
And this is the first vineyard that Paris Yigalles started buying grapes.
It's a long, huge story behind this label.
Let's get into that.
Tell me the story behind the label.
Okay, I will tell you.
He started buying the grapes from Mr.
Georgos in Greece. In 1991, this old man decided to sell his grapes to a private winery and not to the cooperative as it used to be done since then.
So he was receiving these grapes and every year he knew that he was receiving the best quality of grape.
And the wine and the juice that he was producing had a very, very well balanced finesse.
Very evident the minerality content and very gentle aromas of the fruit.
So in 2009, he decided to vinify separately from the other acyrtica that he was receiving.
And we produced a label with the name Cavalleros, the name of the vineyard.
Mr. Georges said that this wine, this specific vineyard used to override all the others.
And it was his best, that's why he called it Cavalleros, the man that rides the horse and all this, etc.
So in 2009, we produced the new label of Cavalleros, 100 % of acyrtico, but with something different.
He released it in the market in 2011, 2009, and the wine remained on the lease for 18 months in stainless steel tanks with a great potential of aging.
And very, very evident the minerality and the fresh aromas of lemon, lemon peel with very high acidity.
It's an amazing wine with a great potential of aging.
Why do you age it in stainless steel tanks and not...
In barrels, you mean.
But we have the other labels, in barrels.
What would that do to the flavor of it, do you think?
If we did it this specific vineyard in barrels, you mean.
I believe that the aromas of acyrtico are very gentle and not that evident and pronounced.
So the oak might change a little bit and will not give all this austerity that we would love to have.
If you would ask me if it's to compare the grape acyrtico with something else, I would compare it with an Alsadian Riesling or a German Riesling.
But for sure, the mouth is totally different from the Riesling.
Can you walk me through what the most difficult and fragile state of the wine making process is?
What do you mean difficult?
When is it most fragile?
When you're making the wine, is it like immediately after you put it in the barrel, is it when you're picking the grapes?
If you receive very good quality for the grapes, there is no fragile in something like that.
At least what I have seen from the wine maker here and our technologist...
I would say the pressing.
The pressure? It's the time that you press the grapes.
And it's not for the good or bad quality, it's as less as you press, the best quality you receive for the juice.
So this is the difference between the wine makers.
And the more volume you get, the more, the higher you press, right?
So you guys do what, 300 ,000 bottles a year?
We have this potential of 400 ,000 bottles.
Our aim is the quality and not the quantity.
So I would say that we produce approximately 250 ,000 bottles.
But we're talking about 6 dry white wines.
One rosette, two dry reds, a Vincando that now we have released in the market 2006, the Vintet.
So as you understand, it's approximately 24 ,000 cases of 12 bottles.
And are most of those exported to other countries or are most of them consumed?
The percentage is 35 % in Greece and the rest in Greece, I would say with no Santorini.
Santorini is approximately 15 % because of the wine tasting room.
So as you understand, there is the people and the guests here that buy a lot and also the market of Santorini.
It's more easy for you to sell a Santorinian wine when you are in the wine region.
And the 50 % is exported, yes.
The States, Canada, Germany, Belgium, Japan, Hong Kong, China.
Just to go back for one second, can you walk me through why you produce so many different varieties?
So many different varieties or labels?
Yeah, labels, sorry.
Great varieties the same, but the labels are...
It's the wine maker.
He will never stop experimenting.
How do you experiment with that?
Do you kill them off if they're not working or they don't turn out the way you want?
Of course we kill them off if they're not working.
And I noticed the vineyard was called an experimental vineyard.
Yeah, we are sitting next to our first experiment, the erretical vineyard as they called it in 1997.
First Parsigalas started experimenting on the variety which the name is Mavro Tragano.
I won't be spelling that.
Mavro means black and Tragano means crunchy.
So it's black and crunchy in a word.
So Parsigalas is one of the first wine makers and Hadidakis, another wine maker from Piergos village.
That they started experimenting in red grapes.
Until 1997 the red grapes used to be used for their naturally sweet dessert wines.
And they used to be a small percentage in red grapes in the Venzando.
Since 2002 and under the legislation you are not allowed to use red grapes in the Venzando production.
So there were, as you understand, a very small percentage for the red grapes.
0 .05, something like that.
So they started replanting this variety that was under extinction.
And until today we managed to produce 8 ,000 to 10 ,000 bottles of 100 % of Mavro Tragano in dry version.
This is the first vineyard that surrounds the wine tasting room.
In 1997 and until today we owned 10 hectares of high density planting of Mavro Tragano.
We are talking about 7 ,500 plants per hectare.
Oh no, 750 plants per hectare.
Oh no, 7 ,500 thousand per hectare.
And we do a green harvest, so we receive the same yield, even from the Trale system.
Because as you understand, on the traditional pruning you receive very low yield.
So we receive the same yield, even with the Trale system and with the high density planting.
And we do a green harvest, we cut approximately half of the clusters 20 days before the harvest of the Mavro Tragano for the dry red wine.
And with these clusters we are producing our rose wine from Mavro Tragano.
With the ones that you cut 20 days before?
Exactly. Do you guys use any pesticides or anything?
Or is it all natural?
It's an unorganic land.
It's a volcanic soil.
We either, we might use copper or sulfites, but with a very low percentage if it's needed for the mildew or oedium.
But 10 years now, for me it occurs twice.
For sure you put for sulfite, some sulfites in order to prevent something like this, an appearance, but there is no reason for pesticides.
It's an unorganic land.
Volcano saved us, yeah.
Not only us, you know.
It's the fava beans, it's everything.
It's tomatoes, it's the white eggplants, everything.
The winemaker on the back, photo shooting.
Just switching directions a little bit, what is the best part of showing people from all over the world the wines that you're producing here?
What do you mean? Sorry?
What's the best part of that expression of what you guys are trying to do?
People come here and they sit down.
I mean there's 12. There is a pruning, the traditional pruning.
It's the different ways of unification.
It's the history. Of course the names are very hard to say, like Assertico, Athiri, Aydani, it's not Merlot, Chardonnay.
But most of the people that are visiting the main cigalas, at least they live and they remember Assertico.
This is very important.
And for sure, they get familiar with a variety that is very rare and it has a great potential of aging.
Are you guys hoping all year round?
In the wine tasting room you mean, or the winery?
No, the wine tasting room.
We will try this this year.
We are for sure open from March up to the end of December.
January, February, it's a little bit difficult season, not only for the people that live permanently on the island, but also for the guests that are visiting.
In any case, if you send an email, someone sends an email, it's always more than welcome in the wine tasting room.
January, February, it's not that often.
But for sure we will open if someone asks for something like that.
But from March up to the end of December, we are for sure open every day except the Easter day, every day.
How can people find you?
You mean that we are out of the caldera?
How do you recommend, how do people get here?
We are lucky because after 14 years now of the wine tasting room, we started tasting four different labels that we own.
Now we have 11 different labels for the wines plus seven labels for the new release that we did right now for a case of seven wines from different villages.
And we produce also some distillates.
After 14 years, first of all, the internet.
So Domensigal is mostly for people that are from the states of Canada.
It's a very well -known winery.
The hotels, it's a huge help, the hotels from all the island.
And it's something you have to do.
You know, it's like you are coming in San Dorines, it's not only the beach, the caldera, the food, the gastronomical destination.
It's also the wine.
Here we have also a restaurant that we do something like a food pairing.
We use our own local products.
We plant our fava, we plant our tomatoes, our zucchinis, everything.
So it's our production and also we buy from the growers anything that is in season and we do a food pairing with our wines.
So would you recommend when people come here to visit the tasting room that they do the food pairing with the wine?
And would you recommend that they do all the wines?
I noticed that you distinguish between just the dry wines and then the dry and the sweet.
Yeah, most of the people do not prefer the dessert wines.
For sure if you are visiting San Dorine, you have to drink Vincando.
Yeah, it has such a distinct...
For me, it's one of the best dessert wines that are produced all over the world.
I will not talk about short term.
But for sure Vincando is something...
A totally different approach, we would say.
And just one more question before I let you go here.
What would you like all tourists to know that they don't know on Santorini?
Nice question. For sure all the visitors, I would say guests.
It's people that for sure drink wine, yeah?
Yeah, I mean who doesn't drink wine really?
Yeah, no one. To explore the wine region, not only the caldera and the sunset of Santorini.
Hopefully listening to you will help people come here and explore this.
Highly recommended.
Yes, hopefully, you know.
Hey guys, this is Shane again.
Just a few more things before we wrap up.
You can find show notes at fernamstreetblog .com slash podcast.
That's F -A -R -N -A -M -S -T -R -E -E -T -B -L -O -G dot com slash podcast.
You can also find information there on how to get a transcript.
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This is all the good stuff I found on the web that week that I've read and shared with close friends, books I'm reading, and so much more.
Thank you for listening.
