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From Data Rails, this is FPNA Today.
Welcome to FPNA Today.
I'm your host, Glenn Hopper.
Today on the show, we're doing something a little different.
If you've spent any time in FP&A, you've heard the phrase finance business partner thrown around.
It's become one of those aspirational titles that everyone wants on their LinkedIn profile.
But what does it actually look like in practice?
And more importantly, what does the other side of the table actually want from you?
Here at FP&A today, we decided to find out.
So we brought together two people who live this relationship every day.
Stephanie Troy is VP of Sales at Data Rails.
She started as a Senior Account Executive about four years ago and has worked her way up through the team lead sales manager and director before stepping into the VP role earlier this year.
She talks to her CFO daily.
She knows what salespeople need from finance and where that partnership breaks down.
Swati Bagri is head of FPA for a major global FMCG company covering the Middle East and Africa region.
She's a chartered accountant with 14 years of experience at some of the biggest names in consumer goods.
She's also a returning guest.
If you caught her previous episode, you know she brings serious insight to everything from zero-based budgeting to commercial finance strategy.
Today, we're putting them in conversation with each other.
What does sales actually want?
What does finance need sales to understand?
Where do they align and where do they clash?
This is the first in a series we're calling Business Partnering in Practice.
We'll be doing similar episodes with marketing, IT, and operations down the road.
Let's get into it.
Ladies, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Happy to be here.
Let's start with a fundamental question.
Stephanie, this one's for you.
As VP of Sales, what do you actually need from your finance team to do your job well?
And you can be honest here, where do finance teams sometimes fall short?
Yeah, good question.
I think something that sales leaders need and sales teams in general is just revenue visibility.
So clear insight to what's going on with the economics of the business when we're thinking of customer acquisition costs payback, LTV by segment, things like that.
I also think deal economics is super important.
So understanding which deals drive long-term success versus short-term success or short-term revenue.
I think it's super easy to bring in a quick sale, but if that quick sale isn't what's best for the company, then It's obviously not something we want to be selling or what's healthy for the business.
So along with that, that kind of goes into strategic guardrails.
So strategic guardrails, I think, is something that every finance leader should be speaking to their salesperson about, or their sales representatives, sales team, sales leadership, all of that.
We all want to be aligned with what the company needs and what's best for the company.
And the forecast model.
I think the forecast model is typically where finance and sales meet.
We talk about headcount planning.
We talk about revenue coming in, predicted revenue, things like that.
So I would say those are things we need where finance falls short.
I would say sometimes it's just lack of reality of what's going on in the world or sales process.
I think a lot of the times departments can stay pretty separate and they don't get involved in what the day to day looks like, for good reason.
Everyone has their role.
But in reality, when we're talking about forecasting finance, having a grasp on what a deal cycle looks like for that company, what the economic situation for buying impact is right now is super important too.
So a lot of the time I think it's lack of visibility. is maybe where finance can fall short.
And the inverse is true for sales too, lack of visibility into what finance wants.
So I'm curious to hear what Swati would say there.
I'm sure you're going to ask her that next.
But yeah, I would say that's where it falls short and kind of what we need from finance.
Yeah, and I think what you hit on there is something that I can think back to my earlier finance roles where, in finance, you can kind of be in this ivory tower of what we're just we're finance.
We do our thing over here and the rest of the business is happening around us.
And I think actually going out Working with the other organizations, with the other departments, and understanding what happens there gives you a level of appreciation for what goes into that.
And I think that's a big part of business partnering.
So Swati, how about from your side?
No, and I totally agree.
I've been in the finance field for last 14-15 years, right?
And I've seen that transition happen wherein, like the entire spectrum or the expectation of finance has changed from being the accounting and doing work in backend to actually becoming business partner.
And I remember very early in my career at MD, uh in one of my companies came to me and said that either your sales or you help sales so at first i thought like what a weird thing to say to somebody in finance right but over time i've realized that what he meant was that every function in the company ultimately kind of supports growth and it exists to support growth so for me I think as finance business partner, it means moving from being a scorekeeper of the business and like kind of being an audit keeper or gatekeeper to being a co-pilot and At the end of the day, it's not just about reporting numbers, right?
It's about understanding first yourself, as finance, how the business actually makes money, and then supporting the sales team to be actually able to make money.
And with all the things that Stephanie kind of explained, It may be slightly different in an FMCG world.
Like you know, you need to know how promotions work, how retailers negotiate, what the consumers demand.
And these are the things that actually drive the P&L, right?
It's different, but it's still not so different when it comes to different industries.
So the expectation kind of remains the same, right?
And When we, as finance, are able to do that, I really feel that the partnership is really strong and we actually become a partner to the growth and, you know, not just a gatekeeper.
Yeah, well said.
And I guess, thinking of an area of where potential conflict could come up would be pipeline and the accuracy of the pipeline and what we call the pipeline and all that.
And I know from FMCG it's a little bit different than a SaaS platform.
But maybe Swati, let's stick with you.
And I think, I guess you're dealing more with like product innovation pipelines.
Stephanie, you would deal with deal pipelines.
How do you each handle the reality that you know the forecasts can be optimistic or you know, when they first come in?
It's got to be a partnership in understanding those pipelines.
So i guess swati, sticking with you, what are your thoughts on how to smooth over that that pipeline communication between product and and finance?
To be honest, I've seen obviously, when sales team or commercial team comes in, they come up with a lot of optimism.
But for me I think, looking at it over the number of years that I've had, I feel like it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Sales team are naturally optimistic because their job is to kind of pursue opportunity and push that growth right.
That's their job expectation.
And if everybody in the room is very, very conservative, I think you know companies would never take risk, like we wouldn't grow, we wouldn't innovate.
And that's where, like finance should come in, or it actually, from my perspective, comes in to bring that structure to that optimism.
So in FMCG, for example, we deal with something called innovation pipeline, right?
When a new product or idea is presented, we are very excited with the early volumes, strong adoption, rapid growth kind of a thing.
And our role as finance is to kind of slow down and ask questions.
Not stop the idea, but ask questions.
Like you know, it could be things like what repeat purchase behavior can we expect?
What happens to the margin once the trade promotions and retailer margins come in?
One thing that has really helped me is to separate the ambition from the commitment.
And ambition should always be big, and I agree.
And that's where the organization will move forward.
But the company still needs a base forecast that supply production operations literally everybody in the value chain can rely on.
That's where finance can come in and provide that visibility and that groundness to the whole process.
I always feel like ambition will build the pipeline, but assumption will build the forecast.
So instead of arguing whether forecast is optimistic, we build multiple scenarios.
And scenario planning is my favorite thing to do even now.
Being in the region, that's where it's like literally every day, multiple scenarios.
So that's the way I think business can responsibly work, drive innovation and growth without losing the ambition.
Really, really well said.
I think obviously again different between FMCG and SaaS.
But Stephanie, on your side, looking at the pipeline, Looking at the forecast, there's the annual plan and then your quarterly forecasts and all that.
Walk us through management of that pipeline and where the communication is between sales and finance, on tracking that and on forecasting.
Like who's responsible for what and how do you get aligned?
Yeah, I think what Swati said is actually very spot on.
I tend to be a little more conservative in my forecasting approach, where I think others on my team are a little more ambitious.
But there's no point of a forecast if it's not as close to accurate as possible, right?
So we have to have a reality there and something in between.
I tend to focus on deal quality and pipeline quality rather than pipeline size.
I think most traditional forecasting systems they teach you in sales or that you learn throughout other companies or bigger companies in the world is that you know you take a percent of what's in the pipeline based on the amount of deals that are in there.
We look at uh, previously sold, we take that percent and it's an equation right.
But that's just not the reality, especially in the software space, in the market we're in today with ai, how quick things are changing.
So for me it's having a really good grip on pipeline quality and that's hard to do is the bigger the company you get.
So stage progression, economic buyer engagement, competitive positioning, deal timeline credibility, things like that are super important.
I follow what I consider a more traditional approach, which is commit and upside.
I submit my commits.
My commits mean basically 100%.
I'd say 99.9%.
There's always that 0.1% of the deal might not go through, but commit means it's coming in.
My team can count on me for that, my leadership team.
That's what I'm reporting to my C-suite, my CFO specifically.
And then we factor in a percent of that upside how many deals we have in our pipeline that have a shot, whether it's this month or this quarter, depending what we're looking at.
And historically, out of that upside, what percent closes?
So that's kind of how I get to my forecasting there.
So I look at, again, my commits.
I have my team submit those.
We have a pretty strict process on what's considered a commit, what's not.
It has to have certain things done, right?
We have to be in the signature process.
We have to have confirmed vendor of choice.
We have to have legal process done.
We have to have negotiations done, all of those things to be in place to consider to commit deal.
But yeah, I would.
I would say I take more of a conservative approach rather than just counting everything and commit an upside.
Otherwise we would definitely over promise under deliver.
So I think it's, it's finding something in the middle there that works for both.
And then trying to pull historical data as much as relevant.
But again, in the software space, things are changing so quickly.
Right now every quarter is almost quite different than the last, and how deals were sold, why they were sold, why people bought.
So forecasting is just dynamic in our business.
We forecast on a monthly basis.
We run our team to a quarterly quota, but I do forecast monthly to my finance team.
When we were talking before the show, you said you're talking to your CFO every day about A healthy deal, versus just closing anything, and just that open line of communication that you have.
I'd love for you to unpack that and explain you know from your side what makes a deal healthy and how does finance come in and help with that as needed.
Yeah, it's such a balance.
And I think this is what really the VP of sales should be doing in every company is doing what's best for the company while bringing in as much revenue as possible.
I think when you think down the sales org and you think, starting as an account executive or a salesperson, you don't care what you're selling.
You want to get as many deals on the board.
You want to grow your number, things like that.
But as we go up the ladder and we think of doing what's best for the business, healthy deals is one of my main conversations I have with my CFO.
And that communication with the CFO is so important because.
I don't know what's best for the company in that sense.
I know what a good client looks like.
I know what a good customer looks like.
I know someone who's going to implement well, who's going to be engaged in our platform.
But down the line and the economics of it and the stickiness of that client.
That's really where I need my CFO's advice.
These deals ended up being profitable for us, or these are the deals we lost money on.
So I think when you're starting off on talking about healthy deals for a business, it starts with reflection.
What didn't work in the past, right?
What didn't work?
What did work?
Who are our top clients?
What do those deals look like?
What was that sales process like?
What was promised to them?
What was communicated?
All of that.
But I would say for a healthy deal.
What makes it up is definitely right customer profile, clear business value, sustainable pricing has expansion potential and low risk for churn.
Those are definitely, I would say, specific to the software space.
But those are kind of what we look at when we're considering what's a healthy deal or not.
And then, of course, there's always deals that are a little unhealthy, that come in, where we have to get really close on negotiations.
Maybe we go under to bring the client in for the big win.
And then that's when I meet with my CFO and discuss, is this worth the risk?
Right.
Is this maybe it's a big logo, maybe it's a big sports team.
We want to bring them in, but we're going to lose money on it.
But is that going to help us in the long run and grow our business?
Right.
So that risk there is really what goes into the aftermath of not selling a healthy deal and talking about it.
So I think finance comes in a lot there when talking about the margin impact, what my discount thresholds can be.
I like to talk to my CFO every quarter.
We have, we call it like quarterly list pricing.
And then I give my director team what they can approve discount wise.
So those discount thresholds help us know if we're in profitability or if we're in the negative, things like that.
And then just overall long-term revenue quality.
So those are typically what I'm talking to the CFO about for healthy deals.
That's great.
And you love being on the other side of the table on the finance side.
You love having a head of sales who's thinking like that and having that open dialogue.
That's really refreshing to hear.
And Swati, you're dealing with a whole other level of complexity in which I mean, you would think FMCG, trying to figure out what the complexity is there, beyond just what's in the industry.
But if you're handling the Middle East and Africa, that means you've got currency fluctuations because of all the countries.
You've got geopolitical instability, complex supply chains, I'm sure I couldn't even imagine.
So in your role, I think there's got to be, and maybe if you could expand on this a little bit but like, how do you communicate risk to the commercial teams without being seen as a department of note?
Because if they're looking at, you know these are our goals here, regardless of everything else that's going on.
It's got to be an interesting balance there.
I mean I'm glad that we're having this conversation now and not just the usual.
Currency fluctuation and geopolitical tensions are on a high.
We also have supply chain disruptions, right?
Like it's difficult to get product in a company like ours where products come from different places.
So, in my capacity, if I just highlight risk, it's easy to be seen as a team that blocks the idea, because at times you need to use a different source to get your products in and that could mean increase in cost right.
And it's very normal when you have a market like Egypt, which is in hyperinflation.
So that kind of adds to the pressure as in how do you forecast how much to sell?
You know, what kind of margins do you want to give?
What kind of discounts we want to give, etc.
So what I've learned in the process is not just about identifying risk, it's also translating it into something actionable.
So, you know, without sounding like I don't want to support you.
The way to proposition this is to, this is risky.
So we shouldn't do it.
I mean, I would never say this to my sales team, right?
I would say, okay, so if currency moves by, let's say 10%, this is what happens to the margin.
But we have guardrails that our margins needs to be whatever, let's say, X percent, right?
What are the things you can do?
One two three, as in your plan A, plan B, plan C, to ensure that we go back to being on the same margin.
Could we adjust pricing?
Could we think of an alternative source?
Could we think of launch timeline if it's a new product?
And when you approach it like that, it is not shutting the idea.
You are helping the sales team make a more informed decision.
I would say
And I really think that's the role of finance, right?
Helping the business see the corners, I mean, and not closing the road completely.
So this is how...
I like to work, and especially being in this region and in so much of, let's say, changes that happens constantly around me.
Yeah.
And with all this complexity, you still have to have a forecast.
And I know the complexities around forecast, again, a little bit different.
So, Stephanie, you mentioned that your deal cycle is 20 to 60 days long.
And, like when we spoke before the show, you were saying a quarter of your Q4 deals didn't even exist until mid-December.
And then Swati, you've got these longer product development timelines that when you start down the road you don't know what the situation is going to be.
So I'm wondering how the rhythm of the businesses shape, how you work with your counterparts.
Like is there?
I don't know that.
I know very different industries, but I wonder if there's anything each industry could learn from the other.
And maybe Stephanie, if you want to take first shot at this one.
Yeah, I'm sure there's more we can learn, especially to our typical deal cycle is about 20 to 60 days.
But we do have some enterprise deals that are much longer than that.
Right.
So that's just I would say the normal range.
So I'm sure there's a lot I can learn from Swati and how She has her team forecast to her as well, and how they predict pipeline.
But for us, as you can see, it's highly dynamic.
We are in a very high velocity space, especially specifically in the FP&A space.
That is a really quick sales cycle compared to other tools in our space.
So my team is working a lot of deals at once.
It's extremely dynamic.
Deals appear late in the quarter.
Like you've mentioned, they don't even exist in our pipeline.
That's another piece of forecasting that we learned.
March is a great example.
We're at the end of Q1 right now.
Walking into March, I'm midway into March.
I have a pretty good idea of what my quarter is going to look like right now.
But I know there's probably going to be anywhere from five to 10 deals that still don't exist that are going to close this month.
So and that's based on historical months.
And in Q4, it's even bigger.
As you can imagine, Q1 is a little different.
But so we're thinking things like that.
We're predicting things.
We're getting basically daily updates at this point.
I'd say the last like 15 to 20 days of the quarter.
I'm collecting a daily commit and upside, from my directors who are collecting it from their AEs and they're more in the know with you know boots on the ground with their deals
So momentum can shift quickly.
And then I'm having those conversations with my CFO not only my CFO, but my onboarding team, my customer success team, right.
How much can they prepare to take on?
The CFO is also having those conversations with their team when it comes to headcount.
So It affects everything.
We always know in software, quarter end is massive compared to month end and things like that.
So finance and sales where we meet is forecasting weekly discussing, weekly analyzing deal velocity tracking, pipeline creation mid-quarter.
We're looking at, okay, all the ops we met with this week.
And this week's a great example.
We're on the 18th right now.
So Looking at this week, how many ops did we convert into qualified ops?
Okay, out of those qualified ops, what do we think is going to close, based on historical close at this time near quarter end?
So it's definitely comes down to a model, as usually everything does, but We're looking at that and then we're looking at other timelines too is just what's the market doing.
How are people buying software right now?
Are people making quick decisions right now or are they not?
Again, with AI, everything is changing.
I would say what both sides can learn though, in working together in this especially in my company is just long-term planning, discipline and knowing things can change super quickly, and being agile, but again, being realistic.
So-
I think I really like what Swati said earlier about sales drives the ambition.
But I think you said finance drives like the reality.
I think that's super important as we're getting closer and closer to quarter end, especially in a business like ours, where things are changing truly on a daily basis.
Swati, I think that's a great handoff point to you on your side.
I i totally agree with what you said.
Stephanie right, and and for me i think forecasting uh rhythm is kind of very much shaped by how quickly business converts the decisions that you take right into revenue.
So in fmcg, if i talk about it particularly, i think business development cycles are usually long, obviously never like 40 to 60 days.
It can take months, sometimes even years, right.
Because, you know, there are decisions like Capex that needs to come in, which will also depend whether it's a greenfield project or a brownfield project, and that could take up to years. uh right so forecasting happens a lot earlier when it's when i say around pipe innovation distribution consumer adoption etc and we spend a lot of time aligning on assumptions and not just the numbers uh so I feel like in industries with shorter cycles such as yours, FMCG could probably benefit from frequent pipeline reviews and agility.
I feel, given that we have such longer innovation cycles, for example, we are not as agile to act and not very easy to change assumptions because we spend so much time reviewing the assumptions.
While I believe what more industries with shorter let's say timeline or deal cycle could learn is more structured scenario planning,
And, like you rightly said, you need to have your models in place to be able to give all these scenarios, and consumer goods have been doing this quite a lot.
So, at the end of the day, I think forecasting is just to mimic the tempo of the business.
In FMCG, the tempo is a bit slower compared to, let's say, a SaaS company where the tempo is like 20 to 30 days.
And yeah, so for me, I think that's how forecasting mimics the business.
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So what happens when sales wants to launch a new product or enter a new market and you maybe sometimes on the first pass of it?
You see the numbers just aren't quite working.
Like how, in that case, Can you push back constructively and still, like you said earlier, you still want to support innovation.
You don't want to be the office of no, but there's got to be.
Well, this is kind of going back to exactly what you discussed before.
I think this is where finance partnering kind of becomes interesting, right?
If numbers don't stack up in the first pass, I believe the idea is never to shut it down immediately, right?
I think the first step as finance business partner is to usually understand where the assumptions are driving the economics.
Is it pricing?
Is it cost structure?
Is it expected volume growth that you need to bring?
So once you start peeling the onion and that's the term that I usually use at work as well, like let's peel the onion you start to have much more constructive conversation with the sales team.
And sometimes even a small change can make a big difference.
Like it could be a bit of a pack size.
It could be the margin, you know, having a differential margin with your distributor and changing the pricing structure, changing only to a few trial market, initially seeing the results and you know, and then then bringing going full, go live right, or rethinking the promotional strategy.
I've seen quite a few ideas that look viable on paper but after kind of reviewing the detailed assumption and the go-to-market approach uh, they didn't turn out to be successful.
And it is, and some which didn't look good in the first pass turned out to be really successful launches.
So So as finance, it's not just about evaluating these ideas, it's also helping shape it, become more commercially and financially viable in the long run.
I think, too, I want to comment on something you said that's important.
I think sales leaders often can have these big ideas and ambitious thoughts and you know what they want to do with the product or what they want to bring it to the team and things like that.
But you mentioned something that is key.
Sometimes the smallest movements make the biggest impact.
That is something I really like to look at data wise with my CFO as well as looking at like If we increase conversion rates by 1, how much does it actually impact revenue?
If we do just a slight price increase here, price increase there, whatever it is, or maybe we price this differently than we did last quarter, but we up this one here and we don't charge for this anymore.
It's those small things and those small tweaks that make, I think, actually the biggest impacts and drive long-term success.
It's not completely stopping everything you're doing or stopping your tried and true.
It's adjusting but it takes flexibility from both sides and i think traditionally cfos are risk adverse.
We i mean we work and the company i'm in now we sell to cfo, so that's all who we're talking to all day long, every day, and we're hearing their point of view on this and it's It's interesting.
But if you have a sales leader who is willing to be to, or if you have a finance leader who's willing to be flexible and a sales leader who is willing to maybe not go for the big thing and just try the little things at first, I think that's really where the magic happens, between sales and finance.
Because like you said, it's sometimes the smallest things make the biggest impact.
Yeah, and to be honest, usually when I talk to my sales, I mean you know I use this kind of emotionally if I were to say like we're working for the same company, we are trying to achieve the same objective.
I'm trying to help you let me help you help me to help you.
And that conversation really makes a lot of difference.
When you know it's, when you make them believe that you're trying to achieve the same objective and you need them as much as they need you.
So yeah, that really shapes the conversation.
And so far, I've seen that it drives like the best results.
And at the end of the day, if the sales aren't coming in, none of us are here.
So it always does come back to revenue to an extent.
So I think that alignment and that recognition of being on the same team and we're all working towards growing this company is exactly what's needed.
And as i'm listening to you guys talk about this, i'm picturing the finance approach when you need to change your number.
You're just in the model and you're you're trying to pull these levers that are just happening in the model, not out in the real world.
And stephanie, as you were going through that story, i'm thinking sales marketing, go to market.
You know, whichever The groups that are actually dealing with the customers might have a better idea and understanding of what that customer demand actually is and what product mix resonates with the people that you're trying to close the deals with and everything.
Whereas in finance, it's just, well, what if I change this from 12% to 13%?
And it's not really based on anything other than trying to get that end result.
So if you've got, and as you're going through product mix and pricing, it's like yeah, you can do all this in the model, but whatever happens in the model isn't reflective of what the demand is going to be out there.
So that's kind of an, that's an interesting way to look at it.
Finance.
Having an understanding of the market is so important because, as you said, it's so much easier said than done to be like.
Well Stephanie, tell your team to increase their conversion rates by 3.
It's like, trust me, I would if I could if it were that easy, right?
So it's having that understanding of reality and then the time it takes to get to that reality.
We're always trying to improve, like conversion rates or whatever the rates may be, close rates, whatever it is.
But it takes time to get there.
It takes training.
It takes rep development.
It takes the right headcount, the right team, things like that.
And one thing that I've also seen working very well is actually going out in the market, sitting in some of these discussions with, let's say, the customers, the distributors, being part of these margin negotiations, being part of these innovation and launches, etc.
You know, traditionally finance was a back office job, right?
We would never be present there.
We would never have these kind of conversation.
And what I've seen that has helped me also to be a better business partner, I would say is actually going into the market, understanding how our products are placed, having this conversation regularly with the sales team.
And that also kind of reflects, when I do the scenario planning, that I may say that 2 here and 2 there, but that may not be a reality because I've sat in these distributor negotiations and they will not budge in even 05.
Forget 2.
So these things, I believe it's industry agnostic.
Every finance person, to be a better business partner, needs to be present and understand the cycle in and out.
Only then they'll be able to add the real value.
Yeah, absolutely.
And actually, before we move on, I do think Stephanie, maybe from the flip side of that, If you need headcount or want to invest in some new sales tech or wherever you need a capital allocation, what's the most effective?
Because you have to you have to kind of be a salesperson to some extent to finance.
So is there a what's the most effective way to make the case?
And what mistakes maybe do sales leaders make if they're, if they're pitching for additional resources?
Right.
It's funny you say that my leadership team will joke like here she goes into pitch mode again.
So it's, you know you're always selling something.
But it's I always tell them, like everything in life is sales right, you're always.
You're always getting something you want.
But it's different if it's headcount.
We do have a capacity model, so we're looking at that.
We're looking at what our goals are right.
Do we need, is it headcount that's going to help us get to our goals?
Is it working at or making our team more efficient now and things like that?
So I would say for headcount, it totally depends on the company's goals.
For me, you know, account executives are willing to take as many calls as you give them, so it's never the idea of will your team work harder, it's do i need more people who are going to work just as hard to get to those goals?
So for us, i would say it is as simple as a capacity model.
If it's something that i'm asking for new tech or something to enable my team, for more sales enablement, I'm coming to the meeting with my CFO with facts, with data, with risk assessment.
What is the risk if we don't do this?
What pipeline leakage are we having by not doing this?
What are we leaving on the table?
Things like that.
So I think it's very matter of the fact of here's the data.
This is why we need it.
This is why I personally believe in it and put my name behind it.
This is why it's best for the team and why it's best for the company.
As the VP, like I mentioned earlier talking about healthy deals, I always think what's best for the company.
And then what's also going to get us the most revenue.
And I try and meet the idea either in the middle or maximize both.
So usually, when it comes to spending more of the company's money, it's showing up with data facts, solid reasonings.
And I only present something I believe in.
If it's something I have to believe in, I'm not going to bring it to my leadership team.
I'm not going to waste their time.
And I'm I'm also not going to waste their money, you know, so it has to be something I'm fairly certain that it's going to make an impact on the team.
And everything you guys are saying.
I mean this sounds like perfect business, partnering and we're all.
I was talking to a guest the other day and you know he said we're all shareholders, we're all partners going for the same goal here.
It's not about this isn't what finance wants.
It's what you know, or it's not what sales wants.
That's what is best for the business.
So finding that that business partnering relationship.
And I do think it's really come a long way from the stone ages back when I started in FP&A.
And I'm wondering and I'm gonna put you guys on the spot a little bit or ask you to call someone out on the carpet but do either of you have examples of business partnering where maybe it hasn't gone so well?
Or you know, just comparing contrast going well versus one that went poorly?
And from your approach, from your vantage point, what separated those two experiences?
Stephanie, do you want to comment on that?
I would say I'm trying to think of something more specific.
You know, every company is different.
I think it totally depends if you're in a really large company, if you're in a startup, if you're what your leadership structure looks like.
I think in some cases and really large companies, sales leaders may not even have that direct connection to the CFO and maybe totally separate where they reporting to the CEO and CEO gives something from the CFO.
So that to me, that's bad business practicing right there, partnering right there, right?
If you don't even have that direct connection to the CFO, or if you don't have those weekly conversations, if you're only going to them for either deal escalation, Commission approvals or, like you know, one off, like situations.
That would be.
My worst example of business partnering is just lack of communication and lack of alignment.
You know, I don't know.
I'm trying to think of a specific example.
Maybe one will come to me.
Swati, do you have one that comes to mind?
Look, I've been on both sides of the spectrum, right?
And I would say the difference is quite striking.
When I was in India and this is obviously long back and finance has evolved since then I was involved in a product launch which was an extension of a chewing gum category in India.
You know we ran the numbers.
The margins were extremely tight because, because of the way the commercial team or the sales team came in with the amount of promotion they want to do, the cost of distribution and you know where they want to be present, because chewing gum is a category where you want everywhere right, you want it literally at your aisle, you want it in gt, which is very big in india, etc.
And margins are extremely different across different channels.
Instead of stopping the discussion, we sat together unpacked each of the assumptions that the team came with.
We looked at pricing tiers, we looked at pack sizes with cities we could launch.
Like I was earlier explaining, that we could pick and choose and see where are the assumptions not making sense.
And once, I think, the sales team saw the numbers clearly, they started adjusting their strategy themselves.
We eventually decided a tiered margin strategy for different channels and also different pack sizes.
So I would say, because we were brought in earlier in as finance in the discussion, we were able to launch a very big category which became a sizable contributor to the gum business of a company which was not the market leader in india.
So i i feel like The collaboration did not feel like an approval process.
It felt like, you know, together we are going through the assumptions.
We are trying to work it out together because the ultimate objective is to kind of launch the product, to expand the category, to grow the business.
Yeah, and that worked really well in the end.
But I have also seen cases where finance was not involved.
Like, Stephanie, you mentioned rightly, right?
There are companies where, you know, the sales head doesn't have a direct relationship with the CFO.
And that's when you know the finance team are brought in really late to the conversation, after you've had multiple round of conversations with about the deal or the strategy, with the distributor, with external partners, etc.
At that point if finance raises a concern, it may feel like we are being blockers or you know we are not taking risk we don't have, we are risk averse, etc.
Right, and that naturally create some tension.
So I think for me the biggest difference between good and bad business partnering is the timing and the mindset.
And that makes all the difference.
Yeah.
And as you were talking about that, I'm thinking we're in this calm spot where we're depending on assuming you're on a calendar year for the planning cycle.
But this year's budget is behind us.
We've already put it now.
I'm sure we're already doing reforecasts and everything around that.
But it's too early to be thinking about the 2027 budget.
So maybe this is a good time to bring this up and maybe we can plant a seed with our listeners.
And I guess...
Because our listeners are primarily FP&A folks, we'll stick with you for a minute, Swati.
As we head into planning season for next year, what does finance need from sales during that time to be able to build realistic forecasts?
What's your expectation?
What's sales coming to you with?
And then Maybe it's more collaborative.
I don't know.
But what's the baseline that you want from sales before you even get started?
I think, before we move to the numbers, one thing that in every company, finance and sales need to work together is to answer a very simple question, which is where is our growth actually coming from next year?
Once that story is clear, numbers will follow and they'll follow more naturally.
And then you can go about answering all the questions about competition demand margins, promotional intensity, etc.
But what are the things you would do as sales to be able to drive that growth is the most important question that i feel like we should answer together and see if it is realistic or not.
Yeah, and stephanie, from your side i'm, when we think about the numbers like you don't start building a budget and then have an annual plan.
So i think senior leadership gets together.
You make your annual plan.
The budget comes from that.
So where does sales fit in the planning process?
I know it's not.
I mean yes, the company wants to grow every year, but it's not just Pick a magic number that we grow to and or maybe it is.
And you say, OK, we can do that if you give me these resources.
I guess from your side, what role should sales play in that, in the annual planning process, and what should they come to the table with?
Yeah, we actually did something a little interesting this year.
We did a leadership offsite, which was basically everyone in the company, VP level and up.
Actually, we did director level and up.
We went up and we met up in person with our C-suite and we did this in November.
So talking about kind of going into 2026, and they said These are our 2026 goals.
As VPs, come together and give us the plan of how you're going to get to that goal and how each of your departments are going to contribute.
So for me, it's clear it's revenue, right?
But For my number it also accounts.
I have to talk to customer success what their churn looks like.
Okay, if you're going to have X amount of churn you're predicting this then I need to bring an X amount of revenue.
And then from there we not only tell them of what we need or have, how we're going to reach that goal, but it's what we need from them as a company or finance team to get to that goal.
And so then it's working with finance on, OK, well, this was our plan we put together.
And then we like to sync because I think it's important from each perspective to present, like finance presented their plan to me and said this is how we thought you'd get to your goal.
And then I presented, oh, this is how I plan to get to my goal.
And it helps us show alignment and also understand how each other thinks.
I think finance and sales brains are very different.
You know very once very numbers driven, very spreadsheet focused, very mathematical, where i would say i'm more creative, i'm more you know, i'm more leaning into like social things and psychology and things like that.
Right.
So it's it's really, really interesting to see where numbers meet creativity and come together.
I would say that's what we did this year.
It worked really well for us.
And we came up with a plan and we're executing the plan.
And it's It's fun to see there's ownership on both sides, right?
It's not just financing, hey, sales, here's your number, figure it out.
And it's also not sales making excuses, which a lot of sales leaders can do and say oh, the market this, the market that, or you know, it's Q1, it's slower.
All these different things.
You kind of meet of the minds and you meet in the middle and come up with a plan together, and it puts accountability on both sides.
So that's what we did this year.
It was a fun exercise and it was really good to get into the mindset of each other.
I just want to add listening to this, I really feel as a finance person.
You know, budgets are traditionally considered to be a finance activity, but they are not really a finance exercise.
I really feel that budget is more of a strategic alignment exercise.
And if we treat it like that, you know it becomes really easy and everybody plays a part to achieve that budget.
It also puts more ownership on someone else besides just the CFO.
So, for all the finance leaders listening, not that I'm saying delegate, but it shares the responsibility and it gives more ownership and it's When I'm presenting the vision to my team.
I have ownership and a hey.
I came up with this idea with my CFO and this is what we believe is best for the company and this is what I think we should do to get us to our goals.
And then I'm then echoing that down to my leadership team underneath me and we're talking about okay great, now let's strategize underneath that.
It creates a good effect, but yeah, it takes it completely off of finance and gives them more accountability and ownership.
Can I suggest one thing?
Because one thing that I really did this year is also to go and present the budget to other functions like RD HR, etc.
These are some of the functions you know in a lot of companies which have no clue about what the plan is for next year.
And you know, kind of doing that and bringing them on board to align to one common purpose that we are trying to achieve, let's say for 2026, really helped drive the conversation.
A lot of discussions that we wanted to have later on, let's say when it comes to having a new product development or Bringing in more savings, given we have pressure on the PL and things like that makes it really easy when everybody understands the common purpose that we are trying to achieve.
If we want to have a new go-to-market strategy, we will need more people, right?
And HR should not say that we cannot hire more people because there's a budget constraint.
You know, just bringing everybody on board makes a lot of difference.
And one thing if I were to suggest for people entering 2027 or planning their budget for 2027 to bring in other functions which are supposedly the support function,
But once you bring them part of the ecosystem, you would see that a lot of things become easier as you try to deliver the year.
It also helps just company culture and like relationships of understanding your fellow colleagues.
Like sometimes you may find maybe we have conflicting goals, you know, like with a, especially with a sales team, versus like a finance team, or a sales team versus like a customer success or implementation team.
It's, you know, it's sometimes it's different.
And if you ever find a goal that could be conflicting or opposing, and then also now we're working apart, right.
Like we're not working as a company and growing together.
So I think presenting your goals, especially on a leadership level, to the other departments and having visibility of oh, this is why they're selling deals this way, or this is why they're not bringing in these types of deals.
And This is why they formed the contract this way or whatever it is.
It gives more clarity into working for the greater good of the business.
And if it steps on on other departments toes it gives, it gives them the chance to raise that objection or that red flag and talk through it and make sure again the goals are working together, not pulling each other or pulling apart from the departments.
As you guys are talking, Swati I was thinking about.
So Stephanie, you said we're talking about sales being on the creative side and sort of the meeting of the sales, brand and finance brands.
And I completely agree.
Like I get...
I think I was telling you guys before the show I wear the Aura ring and if I'm ever on a sales pitch, my stress just goes way up.
But I could be in the middle of the messiest spreadsheet in the world and just I'm in full, like meditative mode.
I'm in restorative mode and everything.
So it's, I do think the brains are wired differently.
And that's why Swati, when you were on the show and mentioned that you were taking improv classes, that I thought that's something I would expect from, like the sales side, but it seems out of character for someone in finance.
So I guess I just hard left turn from what we were just talking about.
But it just, It just came up to me.
And I really think that's fascinating.
So I'm wondering, how are the improv classes going?
And it's been a while since you've been on the show.
So if you're still keeping up with that, I'm wondering how has that changed you as a business partner?
So I just had my first kind of showcase last week and it went really well.
You know, one of the reasons I got into improv was because of its core principle of yes and.
So instead of shutting an idea completely, you acknowledge it and then you kind of build on it.
So this has been a really powerful mindset change that we need in business partnering as well right,
Because I realized, working so many years in finance, we are default to pointing out what's wrong with an idea.
It creates a natural friction when you kind of shut down an idea.
But when you start the conversation with some sort of curiosity and say yes, and how can we make this work, the whole dynamic changes.
You kind of feel like you're on the same team, you're going to the same party and I think improv, personally for me, has helped me get more comfortable with uncertainty and thinking on my feet because you don't have a script that you prepare for and go and perform on stage and In business also, you're not going to have the perfect information ever right.
There will be decisions that will still need to be made.
You will still have to do numbers.
You'll still have to do your budget.
And that's where, of course, scenario planning, my favorite thing to do in the world comes in.
But it enforced something important, right?
Analysis alone isn't enough.
Finance professional also needs to be good communicators.
If I cannot explain insights in a way that resonates with the sales team, the numbers are really not going to influence any decision.
Sales team will do whatever they want to do.
So I feel like being in that shoes has kind of helped me look at things in a different perspective.
I've just finished the beginner course on improv and obviously I plan to continue to be able to be more and more comfortable in being in this chaos and in being in this yes and situation.
Stephanie.
On the flip side of that, I feel like This yes, and is probably.
I don't know if it came naturally to you from the time you were a little kid or anything, but it's certainly, it's got to be a skill that you've learned.
And I think about in a non-business partnering relationship, the sales personality and then sort of the finance perception of sales of oh, they don't even care about margin.
They're going to close the deal at any cost or whatever, just so they can get their deal closed.
And then finance has that reputation for being, you know, the office of no, and they're going to block everything.
And I'm wondering I feel like you're doing a lot of that same sort of improv work and you have to adapt your communication style when you're working with finance.
I mean, how does that work?
And do you have to meet them halfway?
Or how do you when you go into pitch mode, when you're talking to finance?
How does that work?
Yeah.
Yes.
And I do meet them halfway.
You have to meet everyone halfway as a leader in any company, right?
You can't go in with just me, me, me, what I want.
It has to be present the facts.
Why do we want this?
Why am I asking you for this?
Why?
Again, with finance, a lot of it is what is the risk?
Are you willing to take the risk?
I always... really respect the line of what's their decision versus what's mine.
Mine is, at the end of the day, to bring as much revenue as possible, but again, to do what's best for the company.
A lot of the time, in most companies, revenue can trump almost any decision because again, without revenue, a lot of the rest of the company doesn't exist.
But no matter if I know, even if I know I'm going to get my way on something that I know finance may not be comfortable with, I always make sure I give them the respect and the opportunity to make their decision and talk it through with me.
And always make sure that I understand why they chose the decision they did.
So I think, yes, of course, I meet them halfway.
I think they meet me halfway too.
And reputations like that exist for a reason.
In every company, there are people like that.
There are more, you could say, rigid finance personalities and more bossy bullish sales personalities that are just taking taking, taking where finances sometimes has to put their foot down, things like that.
I think, again from the leadership perspective, the alignment is so important because what's happening at the top is always going to trickle down.
And so meeting each other halfway, being able to have constructive conversations and really having respect.
They're in their role for a reason.
They're the CFO for a reason.
I'm the VP of sales for a reason, right?
And I think if we both respect each other's role and expertise, then we can come to a decision together.
But Yeah.
Again, when we're talking to finance, it's really presenting risk.
It's just like in sales, we call it using like your sales EQ, your emotional intelligence.
What is going to speak to this buyer?
So in finances, how am I going to present this in the way that they're going to receive it?
Right.
So what is the risk in this? why do we want this?
What are the numbers?
What is the margin?
All of that.
And then letting them make their decision and respecting their decision.
And if I don't, if I don't agree with it, pushing back respectfully.
Yeah, I love that.
So, all right.
Well, we are, we're getting to the end of the show here.
I do think this has been just a a great uh.
I mean, i feel like we're singing kumbaya.
We're sitting around the campfire, everybody's happy, um and i, but i.
I know that there are people out there who are not in this well-run business partnering situation.
So i wonder, From both of you and maybe Swati, if you could kick us off with this, if you could give our listeners one piece of advice.
To someone on the other table or, I guess Swati, what would you say to sales about working with finance?
I think if it's just one piece, I would say bring finance into the conversation early.
Sometimes, you know, finance gets involved once the decisions are made, strategy is defined.
And at that stage our role kind of gets limited to being reviewing the numbers or challenging assumptions.
It doesn't help either parties.
It creates a lot of friction.
But when finance is involved earlier, we can often help strengthen the idea, right?
Whether it's through pricing, cost structure, scenario planning. and the best partnerships can only happen and business can grow profitably mind you profitably is when sales and finance are aligned around the same goals and you know not just close but building profitable sustainable growth so yeah when both sides see each other as partners and not gatekeepers I think That's then I think magic happens.
And that's what that would be my suggestion to any sales folk watching this.
Great.
And Stephanie, how about to the finance professionals which is going to be?
You've got a big audience here of of the other side of the table.
What's your piece of advice for them?
I would say take a genuine curiosity and what's going on in your sales team sales processes.
So, as you're planning, you're being strategic, you're thinking of goals for the year and how you're going to roll out goals.
Listen to calls.
And I would.
I would actually even put some of this back onto the sales leadership is Send your finance team sales cycles.
You know if most sales teams these days use call reporting systems.
We do a lot of call reviews in our company, but send your finance team a call where there was a ton of friction but maybe you still won the deal or maybe you lost it.
Give them examples of what hard and true deal cycles look like.
And I would urge the finance professionals to hack an actual interest.
Right.
Know why your team isn't bringing in deals.
Know why they're stalling.
It's not not for them to give sales feedback, but it's for them to understand the mind of the buyer.
And again, in every product, it's different.
And my company, my buyer is a CFO.
And so it's a lot easier for my cfo to understand some of those things.
But in other companies it's See what the market is saying.
Listen to it live.
Listen to how your team is talking to them and how they're responding.
And I think when they can actually have visibility into the sales process, they'll understand and they can start suggesting more things to change in the budget or more things to change in their numbers and improvement by actually knowing what's going on, rather than just making assumptions of you know, hey sell this product without you know, including everything else that's going on in the world or the sales process.
So I'd say have a genuine curiosity in the sales team and learn more about the process.
Yeah, perfect.
Perfect.
Well guys, I really appreciate you both coming on and both of you sounding like absolutely brilliant business partners and sharing your insights with our audience.
