From LinkedIn News, I'm Leah Smart, host of Every Day Better, an award -winning podcast dedicated to personal development.
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Gianna, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
Yes, it's our pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
For sure. So I cover early careers at LinkedIn.
I've been at the company for about three years now.
And throughout that time, I've been reporting on Gen Z.
So all of my content is by Gen Z for Gen Z.
And I have a LinkedIn newsletter where I share all those insights.
So for the past three years, I've been speaking to Gen Zers about their jobs and their unique career paths to help other people just understand what kind of jobs are even available when you're starting your career.
And crash course that we all needed in college, because I've realized how much I didn't learn in school about negotiating, figuring out what I want in a job setting boundaries at work.
So a lot of my reporting for the past few years has been guided by my own post grad journey of trying to figure out, you know, corporate America, and my newsletter recently rebranded because I am now the co host of Let's Talk Offline, which is a new podcast from LinkedIn and I heart podcast, and it kind of extends the coverage I've been doing for the past few years.
And we're talking All about what it takes to succeed in the workplace.
And I co -host with my colleague, Jumae Jackson -Gadsden.
She's amazing. She brings in this influencer perspective and she's a millennial.
So she has a bit more experience that she's sharing with all of us kids.
And so yeah, a lot of my job now is speaking to experts and speaking to Gen Zers about all the things, like I said, that we don't learn in school to kind of give people who are starting out that toolkit or that rule book that we wish was handed to us on day one of our job.
job? Incredible. And the work you do, I really appreciate the work that you do, because when I think about the newsletter that we have, one of the reasons why it's successful is because I told my team to look at your newsletter and copy off.
Thank you. That's really sweet.
That's so nice. It's great to see this podcast starting to thrive as well, because it's so important to bring this new perspective into the business world.
And like you said, the education system doesn't often set us up for success as it relates to these realistic business skills that are necessary to be successful in the business world.
And I know one of the topics that you cover a lot and something that comes up quite frequently in our feed is salary negotiation.
And when you think about the folks that you interact with, the folks in your audience, your friends and whatnot, when they have conversations about salary negotiations, what do those conversations typically sound like?
Yeah. You know, when I think about my friends who have changed jobs, we're three years post -grad now and a few of them have changed roles.
A lot of the conversation around negotiation is this idea, do I have the right to negotiate?
A lot of us starting out just feel grateful to have a job.
And I think my friends really experienced this.
I know I did, which impacted my negotiation because we joined during the pandemic.
So the job opportunities were slim.
We were competing with 2020 grads.
So the fact that we even got jobs was a blessing and we didn't want to rock the boat.
we felt, you know, if you negotiate, do you risk losing your offer?
There's so many unknowns.
And a lot of us didn't go in with research. So now as my friends are changing jobs, it's informing them that, yes, you have the right to negotiate.
You have a seat at the table.
And then making sure that they have the research and the data to present in those conversations.
Yeah, I love the fact that we're starting off with the right to negotiate, because that's something that I see as a challenge in so many of these conversations.
And when we think about our approach at A &I when it comes to the negotiation, how to be successful in a negotiation.
We talk about mindset and skillset because mindset comes first. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't have the right mindset, you won't put those skills into action when it actually matters.
And it sounds like from your conversations, people aren't talking about the X's and O's and the strategies of negotiation as the barrier.
It's just overcoming that.
How do I negotiate when I don't feel like I have the right to negotiate?
So when you're helping helping people overcome that hurdle, what advice do you typically get?
I think the biggest thing is it's a mindset shift. And first, it's taking the emotion out of negotiating.
I feel like when you approach that conversation when you're younger, you feel like, well, what do I have to offer?
And am I greedy if I ask?
And the reality is, and I tell this to my friends and people through my reporting, other Gen Zers, employers are expecting you to negotiate, right?
So that aside, take the emotion out of it.
And then also you have to view it as a bit of a transaction.
And my co host to me says this all the time we did an episode or our second episode was on negotiating.
And she says, your job is an exchange of goods and services.
So you're bringing something to the table, and they're offering you something to in return.
So when you kind of view it that way, you have the right to negotiate, right.
And I think this kind of of tracks back to also understanding how valuable your experience is when starting out, because it's intimidating when you're applying to jobs.
And we tackle this too on the podcast when there's three plus years of experience required for a role.
So you kind of have to take a step back and zoom out on you know, your college journey and say, How can I reframe my experience if I haven't had a traditional job or a traditional internship and say, Okay, well, what volunteer work did I do?
What courses did I take?
What projects were I involved in?
And how can I frame name that and brand that as my experience and be able to articulate that in the conversation.
So when you have that piece, when you feel armed with your career story and you realize I am bringing a lot to the table, then I think you feel more, less nervous to negotiate and feel like you have the right to.
I love this. And I love that we're starting with that emotional piece.
We have to find some way to overcome the emotional barriers that we're facing.
And one question that I like to ask when it comes to myself, when I'm trying to make a decision and I'm trying to distinguish between what is a strategic thought and what is an emotional thought.
I ask myself, what would I do if I wasn't afraid, if I wasn't feeling the stress and anxiety?
And then oftentimes the answer becomes really clear.
And it's easier to give other people advice than it is for us to take our own.
Oh, yeah. Listen, I haven't negotiated since the first time I did three years ago.
But when I give my friends advice, I'm like, you got to do this.
But the thought of doing it myself still freaks me out.
I'll be honest. See, that's so important, too, because Because people ask me, do I still get nervous before negotiations?
The answer is yes. It doesn't go away.
You just have to manage it.
Yeah. And I think it's important to hear that you struggle with it as well, but you still go ahead and do it.
And sometimes if you start to talk to yourself like you are your own best friend and you give yourself the same advice you would give your friend, then again, it helps you to see clearly what it is that you need to do.
You still need to overcome those emotions, but at least you have confidence in the decision and direction of your trajectory.
Yeah. Yeah, you almost have to role play a little bit.
Like if I'm negotiating, I'm going to show up as my friend who I told to do X, Y, and Z, right?
Like kind of take myself out of it.
Because I think a lot of times applying your own advice is challenging, especially when it comes to uncomfortable situations like negotiations.
But you really have to kind of just like have a little bit of an out of body experience and be like, I'm coming in, I have a game plan, you know, I'm taking the advice I would give my friends.
And you have to bring in all the facts.
I love that. That is great.
I'll tell you another little move that I did sometimes when I have when I'm struggling to make a decision of any kind.
That's tough, especially when I know the right answer.
I just emotionally I'm struggling to get like, do what I need to do there.
I've only given this to a few trusted colleagues or friends like my wife, too.
She's used this to I say, okay, Kwame is in video game mode, you have the controller, what should he do?
You just just play this game, right?
And I trust the person and I trust that they can evaluate my skills.
set effectively so they know what I can do and what I need to do and they can point me in the right direction.
And I love that. There's so many little mental tricks you have to cut.
Yeah, 100 percent. That's so cool.
This is great. And I like this transactional mentality, too.
I think this is something that is not fully appreciated by people.
Can you go deeper into what this means as it relates to salary negotiation?
Yeah, I think the word transactional when it comes to like the workforce is a bit looked down upon when it comes to like networking, working, for example, right?
Like you shouldn't have transactional relationships when it comes to networking.
You want those to be meaningful.
But I think when it comes to your job and I think Gen Z is getting to a place where we're kind of viewing our jobs as a bit transactional because the reality is for a lot of people, a nine to five job just doesn't cut it anymore.
And we have to have side hustles.
We have to have those side gigs.
So you're almost looking at your job as an exchange of goods and services.
And so when you kind of look at it like that, it takes the emotion out of it.
And it doesn't from the jump, I think we can get so invested.
I know when I was interviewing, I was like deep in the weeds of these companies.
And I was like, I got got my my hopes so high that I would get an offer.
And then if I didn't, it felt like it just tore me down.
So I think when you kind of approach it as this is just me and them, I'm bringing something to the table, they're bringing something as well.
And what I have is valuable and what they have is valuable.
And together, we're gonna have a conversation to see, you know, what we can give give and take to get to the best outcome for the both of us, right?
Because negotiations are compromised.
And I think a lot of times when you're early in your career, you approach it like, oh, well, if I don't get this number that I throw out, then I failed, right?
Like then it wasn't good.
But the fact that you even asked is a win one, and you're not always going to get it right.
It's give and take and finding kind of the happy medium place because the reality is if you're the candidate they want for the job, then they want you to, you know, get the offer.
So they're going going to do.
They're going to work with you to kind of get the package that is most ideal.
This is so good. And what I'm recognizing here is if we're dissecting different ways people can fail in these salary negotiations, it's actually quite empowering to recognize that most of the failures are completely within our control.
Yeah. For instance, failure number one, not having the negotiation.
That's where most people fail.
They just don't start.
And then failure number two.
That was me. Right.
Exactly. We've all been there.
We've all been there.
And then number two, The other thing is just recognizing that with our mentality, we might have a black and white type of limited perspective on what success is.
So I have this very specific path to victory.
And if it doesn't look exactly the way that I want it to, I'm done.
It's over. And then I don't push forward anymore.
But once you recognize the more you involve the other side and the more flexible you are, the more likely you are to achieve something that is somewhat beneficial, then it helps you to persist a little bit more and recognize that rejection and resistance are part of of the process.
And it's your responsibility to have the resilience within yourself to keep on pushing and be collaborative with the other side.
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Yeah, that's so important to say because I think when they push back immediately, immediately, like you kind of shrivel up and you're like, Oh, okay, you know, I pushed too hard, right?
But you have to expect that it's supposed to be a back and forth conversation and kind of let them take the lead.
I always say like, I'm not going to be the lead on this and let them kind of initiate that conversation, whatever it might be.
And I think also it's important is not to put so much pressure on the negotiation.
I think a lot of times people, the negotiation doesn't go well.
Can I still accept the offer, right?
Like if this is a company you want to work at, and we talked about this on our episode, you can say in that negotiation, Like, Hey, I really love this company.
I'm really interested in working here.
Can we like find a way to reassess this in six months?
Once my performance is kind of, you know, measured and what do you need to see in that time for me to be able to get to that higher salary that I want?
Like you're not always going to walk away with the perfect picture, but that's something that can be revisited down the line.
You just have to have the conversation about it.
Which is a great example of being flexible in that negotiation because we want to shoot for the moon, be assertive and ask for more than we think we can can get.
It's their responsibility to protect themselves and they will offer those counters.
And then you do the best you can.
And then you negotiate not only for the present, but also for the future.
So when can we revisit this?
What do you need to see from me in order to get to that level?
Because now we're negotiating for time and the process, and we're also negotiating for information.
So at the end, maybe six months later, when they say, yeah, we could reassess this in six months, you have the information to say, all right, six months ago, you said if I do X, Y, Z, I could be eligible.
Well, I was documenting and making sure that I did.
Yeah, you got to bring the receipts to that conversation and, you know, track all those wins and successes in the first six months, if that's what you guys agree on.
Absolutely. It's powerful.
And now I think as people are listening, they're saying, yeah, this is doable.
And I want to make sure we highlight one of the things that you said earlier, because you said this is an exchange of goods and services.
It's a transaction because when we think about things as an exchange, then we have to accept the fact that not only does the other side have value, but we also have value.
And when you think about your colleagues who started during the pandemic, that really created a bit of a scarcity mentality in their heads, because there was a true scarcity, because the market was selling out, right?
And so anything that they could get, they're very, very grateful.
And we should all be grateful for the opportunity that we have. And that gratitude should not prevent us for aspiring and asking for more at the same time.
And so if we can try and we can fully absorb that and believe that and have more of a mindset of abundance, while at the same time, acknowledging that we too have value to bring that again, shifts our mindset and makes it more likely for us to not only negotiate, but also negotiate with confidence and push for what we need.
Yes. You're grateful and deserving to get what you're worth.
So grateful and deserving.
That might be my first tattoo.
This is great. That is great.
I'll put it on my forehead and win all my I'll write it out for you if you want my handwriting.
This is fantastic. And I remember one time helping somebody coaching them through a salary negotiation back in the day and just helping them to think about this like a business deal.
So if you were an entity within this organization, a business in and just by yourself, how would you advocate?
How would that change your perspective?
And once you think about yourself as your own personal CEO and yourself as a business, now it has a different level of gravitas that you will bring into the negotiation because you're saying, no, this, I respect you as a business person, you're advocating for your needs, and that's exactly what you should do.
And for me, I respect myself as well as a business person.
And I'm going to advocate for my needs.
And that's what you should expect me to do, too.
And we can work through this.
And I think one thing that people don't often appreciate is the fact that every negotiation within your company is an audition.
Whether you get what it is that you want is irrelevant to the fact that you are displaying high level professionals and the person who is able to consistently do that, advocate for what they want while still being respectful and maintaining the relationship.
it puts you in a better position because even if they don't have the resources to give you what you want to need in the moment you're top of mind and it makes the next negotiation just a little bit easier yeah i think that's another important like mindset reframe because when you go in and you're thinking you know i'm there to sell myself right that's what you're doing in a job interview that's what you're doing in a negotiation you kind of like sit up a little bit taller and you're ready to give that firm handshake like you feel like you were saying your own ceo like selling yourself as because who's
better to market yourself than you and advocate for yourself?
I think another important thing we're worth mentioning is when you're in that negotiation and you bring in the facts and you're able to articulate your career story and you show how prepared you are, that's demonstrating to the employer, one, how much you care and how much research you did.
It's your opportunity to honestly show off and show, yeah, I did my market research and I spoke with people in the industry and I did a competitive analysis, whatever it might be.
And you're able to show off those learnings.
And like you were saying, it's just a way for you, like, as you're auditioning to just show like, you're the right person for the job and how much you're invested in you care about this.
That's powerful. Yeah.
And I think that the career narrative and the career story is so powerful, but often overlooked, because we have a very limited perspective on what that is, we might just look at our resume and say, this is my career story.
No, those are data points that you use, cohesive narrative.
Those two things are not the same.
And so when you think about weaving together a cohesive career narrative, what does that look like and how do we do it?
Yeah, I like to think about this in terms of like personal branding, which is a very abstract idea to a lot of people.
But I like to think about it like if somebody said, tell me about yourself or somebody said, you know, give me your elevator pitch, what would you tell them, right?
And how how do you connect the dots?
I think a lot of times you share your resume and you expect an employer to be able to say, Oh, well, I see how they got from this place to this place, or I see how that course fits into the story of their career, but it might not be apparent.
So one, you need to be able to articulate that in an interview.
And also your cover letter, if you're submitting one is an opportunity to like literally write out that story.
So I think it's going back and kind of like researching yourself and saying, Okay, what courses have I taken?
What experience do I have?
And how can I frame that in a way that that meets this role, right?
So what job responsibilities does this role entail?
What are some of the requirements for the job?
What skills are necessary?
And being able to say, hey, you know, this is who I am.
This is what I studied.
This is the experience I'm bringing to the table.
This is what I'm passionate about.
These are my skills.
These are my interests.
And here's how I think that can apply to the job, right?
So if you articulate it in a certain way, if you sell yourself in a certain way, nobody's going to come in and like start poking holes and be like, well, actually, like what's the data to support that?
Or what's just like kind of poking holes in and making you feel like invalidated, right?
Like if you sell yourself in a certain way, somebody's gonna be like, Oh, okay, I want to know more about that.
And I think people don't realize the value of just being able to market yourself and being able to clearly articulate your story in such a way that like captivates the other person.
Gianna, you hit on something that I think is often overlooked as one of the barriers that people have with telling the story, especially if they're a high performer.
Sometimes I realize that they are perfectionists.
And they say, well, this story, it could have been better.
There's some holes in it.
And these people will probably find the holes and then I'd have to explain it.
No, no. Can we just pause and recognize how weird it would be if you are telling your life story and somebody who does not know your life story is like, Gianna, that did not happen.
Prove it. That's a red flag.
I don't want the job.
I'm out. Never mind.
I'm walking away. That would be weird. And I think people often are hesitant to create and share their powerful life narrative because they're afraid that there are elements that are just unbelievable.
But again, if you have the data to substantiate it, and just the confidence to communicate it, then people will believe it because they have no reason not to.
Mm hmm. Yeah, I 100 % agree.
Yeah, this is great.
And now let's say, hypothetically, imagine there's somebody in the audience who's saying, All right, Gianna, well, maybe you could help me with this situation.
Maybe there's somebody out there who is looking to get a promotion, and they are struggling to understand exactly how to have that conversation.
What advice would you have for somebody who's in that situation?
I love this question.
And this is something we actually touched on.
Let's talk offline.
Because at this point in my career, you know, promotions are the conversation we're having.
And I think this also can be a really uncomfortable conversation because you don't know how to go about it with your manager.
And so what we talked about on the podcast is like these conversations need to happen like a year or so in advance, like at least six months before to kind of lay the foundation for that promotion.
promotion and similar to this idea of like, yes, you have the right to ask.
You have the right to advocate for yourself in a promotion like you do in a negotiation.
It's important to remember that.
And you also need to kind of approach it by giving your manager the most ammunition possible.
A lot of times, and I honestly felt like this when I started, you think, oh, well, they have visibility into my work.
They know exactly what I'm doing, but that's not always the case.
Depending on the team that you're working on, you might not have as much visibility to your manager, maybe you don't have a weekly touch base, but if you do and totally recommend setting that up, if you don't use those one -on -ones as career goal setting conversations so that you make sure you're on track for that promotion and voice that day.
I think at this point, this is the time where I feel, you know, I've grown in my role and now I've taken on these responsibilities and I'm ready for kind of the next challenge.
How can you help me get there?
And what do I need to do to get to that spot?
And in those one -on -ones kind of bring, you know, the facts, share.
This is what I did this week.
These are the metrics that I hit.
Here are some of the key wins and package that up to your manager after at the end of the week and say, hey, here's what we talked about.
And make sure you're keeping track of that, too.
I have a personal wins and learnings folder or channel on Slack that I literally just message myself and have a reminder go off every week and to tell me to track stuff.
And if I ever write something up for somebody else, I'll throw the blurb in that channel just so I remember when when it comes to my performance review and those conversations.
So I think you need to just give your manager enough ammunition to go to bat for you and, like, do the work for them.
So they're able to have the conversation on your behalf, because it's really unsettling knowing that people are having those conversations in rooms that you're not in.
But you can help sway those conversations by giving them the research and giving them the data that they need to kind of put you up for that next promotion.
This is so good. And you're absolutely right.
And I think that one thing that often young professionals do is they overestimate the power of their memory retention yeah because they say look at this win i'm five years out this is a massive win no way i'll forget this you will oh my god when i wrote my first performance review i was like what have i been doing for the past year i don't even know it was hard yeah it can be it can be scary have not taken the time to do the research because you might be in a position where you say hey i I want this promotion.
I really feel like I deserve it.
I've really worked hard. And then at the end of the year, you try to just remember the wins and you can only think of two or three things.
It's like, I've been here for a year.
I know I've accomplished more, but I forget what those accomplishments are.
And then again, remember these data points are the tools that we use as markers in our story that we create, our narrative that we create.
And so you are giving people the tools that they need to believe that story, hold onto that story and share that story effectively.
Because if you're disorganized in your conversation with the other side and you can't even remember your own wins, how are they then going to turn around and advocate for you?
Just saying, oh, yeah, Gianna, she's a hard worker.
What's the proof? Well, you know, I vibe with her, though.
Doesn't mean you're not going to get anything from that.
You need that specificity and the data really helps.
Yeah, you have to help them put that package together.
And when I started my job, I didn't have that clear of goals.
And I'll never forget a conversation with somebody I had on my team.
He said, Gianna, you'll have to write a performance review one day.
you'll be up for promotion one day determine what the goals are for yourself and create metrics and then figure out a way to track it so that you could present it to you know the person obviously i asked my manager like hey are these great goals for me we had those conversations so then i knew what i was working towards and i was able to maintain a tracker week to week powerful powerful and what i've found too there are times just like any other human i too have emotions and sometimes Sometimes my confidence goes up.
Sometimes it goes down.
And I have this journal filled with compliments that other people have given me along with different wins that I've had.
So whenever I start to feel down and I'm like, man, I haven't accomplished anything.
Nobody likes me. Then I just get an overwhelming amount of evidence.
I love that. Yes. Yeah.
You need to keep a brag folder for yourself.
It's such a confidence boost on those days where you're like, what am I even doing?
You're like, oh, no, I'm doing good.
Powerful. It is powerful.
That's great. Great.
So I know we're coming up on time here, John, and I appreciate this because this has been really fascinating approaching salary negotiations from a different angle and other than listening to Let's Talk Offline.
If you had one piece of advice that you would give people in their salary negotiations, what would that parting piece of wisdom be?
I would say just look in the mirror, stare yourself down and tell yourself on repeat, be I'm worthy, I'm worthy, I'm worthy, you are so deserving of asking for what you're worth, you just have to recognize your value and be able to articulate it.
And I think once you do it, once you make the ask, it will only get more comfortable each time you do.
I'm not saying like you'll go in with no nerves, or it might fumble you when it comes out of your mouth.
And that's totally fine.
Making the ask is a win.
But it just starts with like reframing your mindset around it and knowing that you're deserving to have a seat at that table.
I love it. Gianna, thank you so much for joining us.
This was exceptional.
And before you go, remind the listeners about you, how they can get in touch, and how they can follow you.
Yeah, definitely follow me on LinkedIn at Gianna Prudenti.
You can subscribe to the Let's Talk Offline newsletter there and also check out the show wherever you like to listen.
Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so much fun.
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