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Here's something I want you to sit with for a second.
When was the last time you felt truly connected to the people you work with?
Not just friendly, not just collegial, but genuinely meaningfully seen by them and by you.
Today's guest is Ben Swire, organizational consultant, facilitator, and the author of Safe Danger.
And his entire life's work is built around one belief that most of us are starving for meaningful connection and we don't even know it.
He works with teams, schools and organizations to build the kind of trust that doesn't come from team building exercises or small talk about the weekend, but from the small, courageous act of letting people actually know you.
This conversation is whimsical, practical and honestly, it made me think differently about every room I walk into.
Let's jump in.
People are so disconnected that they don't fundamentally understand what connection is anymore.
So let's talk about that.
What have you seen?
Well, one of the most reliable things that we hear from people coming to us.
They'll come and they'll say you know our team isn't connecting, they're remote now or we're just, you know, we're distributed.
And it's not like the old days.
We really want to get back to that.
And what I find fascinating, I just I sort of let that go and we keep talking.
But what I've always felt and what I find fascinating is I don't think it was that great before.
I don't think water cooler culture that we've lost is the thing we want to get back to, because it was really superficial.
Talking about what movie you saw over the weekend, talking about where you're going after work.
That doesn't build meaningful connection to people.
It gives you a brief overview.
It's the book jacket.
So What I've found is that the stuff that really builds meaningful connection is when you take a small risk, when you open up in a way that you may not have expected to when you got up that morning, and that dynamic of vulnerability, of sharing something that makes you you
Not just what movie you saw and all that stuff.
That's what really makes the difference for meaningful connection.
When people lower their guards a bit, share some of the formative stories that have made them them.
And I think more importantly, letting other people share with you.
Being somebody that allows other people to feel seen for who they are.
That's what builds meaningful connection in a way that really, really matters.
And I think in a work context, Lots of places are really good at rewarding people for what they do.
It's a much narrower band that is good at celebrating people for who they are.
And I think when you get beneath the roles and responsibilities of the people around you that you spend your days with And you really get to know who they are, why they do what they do, why Jenny is a stickler about punctuation.
And then you find out, oh, her parents were English professors.
And so this is her idea of, OK, so now I can talk to her in a different way.
I can understand where she's coming from.
Whatever it may be, when you're surrounded by people's behaviors.
Once you get beneath the behaviors and understand the motivations, it allows you to surround yourself with people who are different than you, but in a really useful and productive way, without feeling alienated from them.
And I think that's important.
My goodness.
So now I see why Adam Grant and Amy Ann Misson endorse your work, because this is phenomenal.
The artistry that you have with your words brings a level of depth that I think is is difficult to appreciate without going deeper into it, because we've had we're at over 1700 episodes here.
We talk about.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I just don't know when to quit.
So we talk about vulnerability a lot.
We talk about psychological safety a lot.
We talk about the risk that's associated with vulnerability a lot.
But you have these modifying words that help us to recognize that we have just been scratching the surface.
Because think about with connection.
We talk about connection, but we you added the word meaningful connection.
That's a different thing.
And so when we talk about vulnerability, we talk about sharing something that might be a risk.
But you talk about something that makes you you.
Right.
That's a different level of vulnerability.
And then we talk about being willing to receive somebody's vulnerability and see them.
But you added that modifier of feeling seen for who they are.
And so I want to give you a wide berth here. for when it comes to these modifiers.
Why is it so important for us to see these terms with this increased level of depth?
And then how does that change the way that we actually engage with other people?
What the modifiers do is they make it difficult.
They make it They require some skin in the game.
They require some effort.
And I think that degree of effort and care makes all the difference.
I think because it's intentional, because it's a priority.
I think you need to recognize that people are more than just the surface level of what you see and what they choose to show you when they're being defensive.
I think to a great degree, most of us are Living somebody else's life in a weird way.
I think anybody that's gone through middle school has felt that crush of conformity come in and sort of begin to file down the edges of what makes them them, so that they can feel accepted, that they can feel like they're on the right track.
For a lot of people, it's so that they can feel loved because without that, that's missing.
And I think that what really makes a difference in getting to know somebody is starting to unbury some of those parts of what makes somebody unique in the world.
Not just somebody that's going to parrot back to you what you want to hear, but rather somebody that's going to inspire you and surprise you and bring something new to your life.
And that's the difference between connection and meaningful connection, I think, for me.
That's what I've seen when I've taken some time and thought about the people in my life that bring the most to it.
The people that surprise me, that support me, but in a way that adds something to what I'm doing, that disagree with me, but in a really healthy way, in a way that either makes me rethink what I do or makes me double down and think no, I'm right.
I'm on the right path and I can articulate that.
It forces me to articulate things.
I think that's one of the really interesting things about dealing with.
I have two kids, and so I'm in the midst of trying to raise responsible interesting, curious human beings.
And one of the interesting things I think in the world right now is that people's opinions are so loud and divided that nobody seems to feel the need to justify them, to think them through, to be critical, to explain them.
And that depth of thought and interest, I think is just essential to understanding somebody and having yourself be understood.
I agree.
And I think too, when you distinguish between just connection and meaningful connection, and you can connect deeply with somebody, one of the interesting results is that you get a better understanding of yourself as a result of connecting to them.
And going back to one of the things that you said where we are living somebody else's lives.
Sometimes you get so used to living somebody else's life that you forget that the life you're living isn't really your own.
Right.
And then and then, as you are talking to somebody, if you're really good at listening, what you'll recognize is that there will be little fragments, little drops of evidence of who that person really is.
And if you're listening deeply, you can hear it and then ask a question that gets them to go deeper, or say something that encourages them to go deeper.
But they're not going to go deeper if they don't feel that willingness to be vulnerable, and they're not going to be willing to be vulnerable unless you can create psychological safety.
Right.
And after you can engage with them.
In that way you get that meaningful connection because you are more willing to be yourself.
And as a result of the conversation, you have somewhat rediscovered yourself in a way that maybe you can only express with this person.
Yeah, I 100% agree.
I think that's one of the things that I lean on when I'm designing workshops or just dealing with people and raising kids is the importance of curiosity.
That, for example, when, you know, it's a mediation technique as well.
But when you have a disagreement, I think most people are wired to try to win the arguments.
And I think it's much more difficult and much more rewarding if you're trying to win over the person.
But to do that, instead of just yelling at them, to do that, you really have to become curious.
You have to understand where they are coming from.
You have to begin looking for common ground and building from there.
And you have to be willing to I think to some degree, to be wrong.
If you're really listening to somebody else and really connecting with them, you have to be open to changing and learning on your own side.
And that can be very, very difficult.
But it means being curious about yourself, about your motivations, about your belief system, about why you are so entrenched in believing what you believe.
And that's the sort of curiosity, both about other people and yourself, that leads to, for me, the type of growth that can be excruciating but can also be the most rewarding.
Yes.
And I think the best growth is excruciating.
It doesn't feel good.
And you have to have this willingness to go through that and recognize that a lot of times the signal of the pain is the thing that we run away from.
Over time, we have to learn that that's what we need to move toward.
And it's funny because when I think about curiosity and a lot of what we talk about is curiosity on the podcast not surprisingly, you cannot both be defensive and curious truly curious at the same time.
And one of the keys to being persuasive is the willingness to be persuadable.
Because you let your guard down in order to be curious and then absorb what it is the person's saying.
And if you're not leaving every conversation somewhat changed, then you weren't truly curious and you wasted your time.
Yes, I think so.
So let's talk about this because again now, what I'm recognizing is that people have a very surface level understanding of what curiosity means and what gets in the way of it, because I think folks only think about strategic curiosity.
Listen, I listened to Ben and Kwame.
They just said, ask some questions.
And so I'm going to ask more questions.
But it's more than that.
So what do you think are some of the biggest misunderstandings of curiosity?
Well, I think you hit on, I think, two of the biggest ones.
One is it's not just about asking questions, but it's about asking good questions.
It's about asking meaningful questions and really and then second, really listening to the answers in a way that's not just planning your next statement and next argument, which you know this is not new knowledge, but it is.
It's the sort of thing that I think most many of us need to be reminded of on a regular basis that to listen deeply means to be willing to be convinced.
And that's a really hard thing to do to have a sense of yourself but still be willing to change that sense of yourself and find that balance.
I think often, when I'm talking with leaders of teams and stuff with all, They'll say well yeah, I want to be open and vulnerable with my team, but they still need to know I'm in charge.
And there's a false dichotomy there that you can't be respected if you're not perfect or if you're not ironclad that if you are open to change, that is to some degree wrong, showing a, a wavering vision or something like that.
And i think for me, the leaders that have been the most inspiring were the ones that had a general direction they wanted to go in, but were willing to make that journey all the stronger by bringing as much um insight from the people around them as they could.
And that's a more difficult line to walk than most of us are used to, quite frankly, because we're not taught how to do it.
We're taught very quickly, you know, Stand up, be confident, be loud, answer quickly.
And that's what gets rewarded most in business and work and all that sort of thing.
One of the questions I'll often ask groups is think back to the last three meetings you had and what got rewarded more good answers or good questions?
And it's pretty clear what gets rewarded, who gets promoted, who's the golden child.
It's not the people that question the leadership.
It's the people that affirm it.
And organizations, people, families, you get more of what you reward.
So if you want curious people, you've got to reward that curiosity.
And our systems work.
I agree.
And incentives drive behavior.
So whatever the incentive will be, that's where the behavior will go.
And I think people listening would say, well, it sounds like there's a cultural issue there.
So the culture of the teams have to change.
And I think again that is a bit of a surface level response because the culture oftentimes, especially in organizations where somebody has a lot of leadership power, so maybe smaller businesses or just smaller teams.
Yeah, there is a culture, but there still is that leader who will have an outsized persuasive power over that culture.
So we have to kind of talk about the mindset of the leader to then be able to institute such a culture of curiosity.
And so you've worked with And with a lot of great companies, with a lot of great teams.
Your business is doing exceptionally well.
And you've written on this topic, too.
And so I want you to think about some of the leaders that you've worked with who have been able to make this shift where they might have been more command and control.
They might have been more performative and less vulnerable.
How does one make a shift from that to being vulnerable, being more humble and curious?
Yeah.
I don't think it needs to be a grand gesture.
I think it's actually a bit more powerful when it shows up in small ways consistently.
I worked with a VP who she just, at some point she decided she was going to start every one of her Monday mornings, her Monday mornings meeting, Monday morning meetings with Something that she'd done wrong recently.
Sometimes it was just, you know, she got on the wrong subway or she used the sugar instead of the salt.
Other times it was speaking up in a more professional misstep.
But whatever it was, that's how she began, every week with something that opened a crack in her professional facade to some degree to this team.
And at first she said the team was a little bit disoriented and wasn't quite sure what to do with it.
But as it kept going, they got the message and they started sharing some of their own.
And it became an opportunity, from her point of view, for people to laugh at themselves, to laugh at each other, to not take that failure personally and to understand that perfection matters wasn't expected.
It was, you know, it was a goal, but there was an understanding that missteps happen and the way to handle that was to learn from them, and that created a culture where people were able to take risks because they weren't afraid of getting it wrong.
They wanted to get it right and that was a priority, but they knew that they could take those risks and push outside of the expectations.
And it all came from this little adjustment that she made early on in the course of the river of her leadership.
And downstream, it had major effects on the mentality of the people that she was leading.
And it allowed them all to really step into themselves in a way that I feel like most leaders cheat themselves out of.
You look and you look for people that are going to be the best and you give incentives and then you end up silencing a big portion of their insight because they're afraid to ask good questions.
I worked with another company that brought us in after.
This was one of those places that's just got beautiful offices.
It's a place that they've got meditation pods and comfort, all sorts of lovely things.
But they brought us in after a launch of a product had really just failed disastrously, and it turned out later that a number of their people had noticed the problems early on but hadn't spoken up and when asked why, they just said that's not the culture here, that's not how you get promoted.
You don't get promoted by disagreeing, and they needed to shift that.
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There are real consequences when you begin silencing people's curiosity.
I think one of the biggest problems that I see, both in organizations and companies and families and people in general, is they confuse comfort with safety.
They.
So comfort is when you smooth things over and everything fits in and you make it easy for people to fit in.
I think safety is when it's safe for people to stand out, that they can be themselves and still be accepted.
And understanding the difference between those.
Creating a place where people feel safe to be themselves rather than just comfortable fitting in, makes all the difference.
And that takes a little bit more risk.
It's a little bit easier to say everybody should say the same thing.
It's much more difficult to say we're all going to say different things, but we're going to listen to each other.
We're going to respect each other.
We're going to get curious about each other.
That takes more effort.
It takes more time.
And that's another big piece of it is that a lot of the leaders and things they want to light switch, to change their culture.
And that's not how people, that's not how behavior works.
You can't just put out a series of bullet points.
It takes practice and it takes intention and it takes consistency.
Yeah.
And that is exactly what people don't want to hear, Ben.
I'm very unpopular.
It's like, what?
I'm already tired.
I'm already overworked.
And you're suggesting more work.
What is this?
But I think we have to remember it's an investment, right?
We get something on the back end.
It's an investment and it makes all the difference both for the organization and for the people there.
I spent much of my career working in financial marketing on Wall Street.
And then I went to this design firm called IDEO.
It was very much sort of going from Kansas into Oz, emotionally speaking.
I went from a place that knew how to motivate people in two main ways, which was incentives or fear.
You want a promotion or you want to get fired.
These are the two reasons to do your job.
And I went somewhere at IDEO.
It was a culture of trust and vulnerability and collaboration.
It was a place where you were encouraged to share half-baked ideas.
That could never work, because people wouldn't laugh at you.
Instead, they would take those ideas and make them better.
And you could feel good about yourself for throwing out just insane ideas, because it prompted other people to come out with insane ideas and You found something new in that way.
My first week at IDEO.
So I went to the place I had been before, before we could send out a postcard.
I counted once.
You had to have 60 pairs of eyes approve it.
Everybody had to have their fingerprints on it.
Everybody.
And I went to IDEO and I was there about a week working on this team and we were doing a presentation.
I'm a writer by trade, so that's what I was there mainly to do.
And we were doing a presentation to a major client on a project that they wanted and they wanted me to write it.
And I said, great.
And I did what I've been trained to do, which is I asked for the brand guidelines.
I asked for some past examples.
I wanted to see what's IDEO's voice.
And my team lead sort of looked at me and just said, Whatever you write, that's our voice.
That's why we hired you.
And it took me aback a bit because I was like, you trust me already?
And they didn't want me to fit in.
They wanted me to help them stand out.
And I've never worked harder on a project piece before and it really changed my whole perspective on what it can be to work at a place because I really felt I felt seen for all that I could bring and that made me thrilled to go to work in the morning.
And I think that last part is something that unfortunately is a foreign concept to so many, right?
It's like I'm excited to go to work.
And let's talk about that.
Let's go deeper into the culture of IDEO and what they do so well and what the leaders who are listening to the show could emulate.
Yeah.
Well, IDEO is a place that really does encourage collaboration on a level just beyond.
I think for many places, they think collaboration and teamwork are sort of synonymous.
And IDEO was the first place I recognized the chasm of difference between them.
Putting people in the same room and having them work on the same project is not the same as collaboration.
Collaboration is when you bring together a bunch of different skills and they inspire each other.
You're not just working together, you're fueling each other.
And that difference really came home.
But it only works when you allow people to take risks and to make mistakes and trust them and explore.
It's about curiosity.
And IDEO's culture is really built around, I mean, they don't want to fail at things.
But when they do, when they take a misstep, they don't blame.
They get curious.
It's an opportunity to explore and see why did we make this choice in the first place?
What were we thinking?
What have we learned?
And how do we not make that mistake again?
And I was excited to go back every day, because I was surrounded by people who were different than me, whose brains worked differently and who weren't afraid to show that.
And I think there's a.
When I tell people I worked at IDEO and they know what they're like, the two reactions are either oh you know, you're so lucky because that work is so creative anyway.
Or, oh, they, you know, they hire just the most amazing people that, you know, that it's so great.
And they do.
They hire amazing people.
But it's not that the people come in. with this mindset.
I certainly didn't.
I was shocked that this is how you could behave.
I had to rewire how I thought.
They bring in people that want to be happy, that want to like each other, that want to be curious.
That's what they're looking for.
They don't bring in people that know how to do this initially.
It takes time to build trust.
Trust is, I think, the key piece underlying the whole thing that you can trust the people around you to be caring and kind.
And you build that trust by being caring and kind to people around you.
But the fact that IDEO is a creative place, it is.
And the work was fun.
But one of my favorite clients that I now work with and I don't mean to disparage accounting firms, but they're an accounting firm which is not known for party hats and disco balls, but it's a place that really emphasizes respecting people for who they are and not just for what they do.
That is really curious about allowing people to bring their full selves to the work, about listening to who they are beneath their resumes and roles and then leveraging that to make the work better, to make their relationships better, to make their collaboration better.
It is the happiest most vibrant group of people I've worked with, and it's an accounting firm.
It really drove home to me that it's not necessarily the work that you do, it's the people that you work with and how you work with them that can really make all the difference.
That's powerful.
What about families?
Because it seems like the values that we've talked about throughout this interview would apply to families.
What do you do with your family?
Because you've already mentioned your family a number of times.
And so I can tell you're very intentional.
And so I'm wondering how you bring some of these concepts home too.
Well, look, I mean, I bring them home, but they flow both ways.
This concept, that What really helped me begin to crystallize my vision was a moment on the playground with my kids.
My youngest daughter, actually.
She was...
The concept that I design my workshops around is called safe danger.
And the idea here is that I want to create an atmosphere where people feel safe enough to leave safety behind, but still stretched enough to grow.
That's the key premise that I'm working on creating an environment of when I design my workshops.
But that came from a moment when I was with my daughter and she was, I think, four or five.
And she was looking up at those rings, the ring thing that you do where you go across the little bridge thing.
And she was watching the big kids do it.
And she just was hungry.
She wanted to do it, but she was terrified because it was, for her, it was a huge drop.
And so what I did is I lifted her up, I put her in the middle of the things and told her to hold the rings, and she did.
And then I said, all right, now let go.
And she looked scared, and I said, it's okay, let go.
And she dropped, and she landed with a thunk, and she crumpled to the ground, and she stood up.
And I said okay, that's as bad as it's going to get, that's too much for you, let's wait.
If it's not, you're okay.
And her lie eyes lit up.
She ran back, she ran and she just know.
She just did those rings over and over and over again because she knew two things now she knew how bad it could be and she knew that she could survive it.
And once you demystify that fear, I think you know I'm a deep, deep introvert.
And so a lot of the people that I work with are as well.
There's a fear that comes from being vulnerable, from talking to people.
If you're shy, all of that stuff that if you can begin to demystify it and you realize oh, it's really not that bad.
Okay, this is doable.
Yeah. that's incredibly powerful and useful in the workplace.
And so that's one of the pieces that I've tried to do.
The flip side of that, you know as you.
I mean, the whole point of your question was how do I?
How does this impact my family?
As a parent, one of the, the key questions that i carry with me every day of dealing with these kids um, these horrible monstrous delightful, wonderful kids that uh are exhausting is really you know how, when i'm giving them, when i'm saying something to them, am i guiding them on a path that's going to be useful, Or am I depriving them of a piece of who they are?
You know, when you're sculpting something as an artist, you're pushing things in.
You're pulling things.
I want my kids to be themselves as much as possible.
And that means creativity, clearing away some obstacles, and it means giving them some guidance and trying to keep in mind which of those is happening when.
When I'm trying to help them find their own path and when I'm trying to put them on a path that I know is best for them.
That's a difficult thing, but that insight and that Complexity is something that informs the work I do with companies as well all the time, which is how do you get the best out of your people?
How do you get the strongest work?
How do you teach somebody to do something the right way without losing the opportunity to learn a better way that they might have found that question?
It weighs on me with my kids.
It's more fun to explore in workshops, but it's an inevitable question.
And those two things sort of come back and forth.
That's powerful.
Thank you for that.
As a parent, too, thank you, too, because that gives us a different way of looking through behavior.
Because a lot of times I recognize that parents can be tempted to edit their children for their own sake more so than the sake of their child.
Oh, yes.
And I'm thinking like this morning, I like to spend time in deep thought.
I value that a lot.
And children hate thinking.
They're like, dad's thinking, let's end this as quickly as possible.
And so I recognize that a lot of times.
Sometimes I can say, especially with Dominic, my youngest he's four, he's very loud.
Dominic, quiet, quiet, right?
And sometimes that's just like social decorum.
I have to teach him social decorum.
And sometimes it is childlike exuberance and I have to understand the distinction between the two.
So this morning what I do is I would drive nearby the house but I'm like I'm just going to work from my car like the Lincoln lawyer, so I can just be by myself and think for a bit.
And so this morning I was enjoying my peace and solitude for two or so hours.
And then I come in.
And I'm all Zen.
And I open the door as soon as the door cracks.
I was like, daddy.
I just I close my eyes and I take a deep breath and I look down at him and he looks up at me like he's in trouble.
And then I just pick him up and say, good morning, Dominic.
I love you.
Right.
And so the other part of me wanted to just be like, oh my gosh, please just be quiet.
And so just the ability to pause for a moment and think how am I shaping them with the words that I'm saying is going to be so important.
And then also recognizing that There is an authentic version of themselves that they will show to you because they don't know how to edit or they don't recognize that sometimes there is a social penalty for authenticity.
And we have a really powerful opportunity to be the catalyst for their continued authenticity if we can focus on them more so than focusing on what we might want in the moment.
Yeah.
And that is really hard when you want peace and quiet.
I get that.
When I used to take my kids to nursery school and they were three or something like that trying to get them down the block.
It took forever because everything that they looked at was fascinating.
Every leaf, every takeout menu, every brick they wanted to stop and examine.
And I was constantly hustling them because we needed to get to school and I needed to get to work.
And then finally, one day I basically just called into work sick and I said I'm going to be late today.
And I let my oldest Quinn, I let her lead us.
And it took three hours to go four blocks, but it was really a fascinating three hours.
And I learned a lot and I saw a lot that I'd missed and that I hadn't been paying attention to.
There's this um idea in psychology that uh Kids have an explorer mindset and adults transfer into what they call an exploit mindset.
So you actually your brain, you know, physically shifts and takes in different things.
When kids are young, everything is new.
Everything is overwhelming and they don't prioritize what's important. what's the most efficient?
We do that as adults.
We start to exploit our knowledge and try to optimize.
We try to find the quickest route.
We try to find the best way.
And both of those are equally valuable.
The problem is that as we begin to exploit, we forget to explore.
And that comes at a real cost, I think, because Exploiting optimizing allows us to repeat the past really well.
But it's the explore part that opens up what we might do in the future and what we might do differently.
And I think that's when my kids are noisy and disruptive and come and break my peace of mind.
One of the things I have to remind myself or I find one of the things that allows me to deal with that is telling myself that that disruption and the anger and frustration that begins to come up is useful because it's breaking what's comfortable for me.
And it's forcing me to think in a different way that I've lost, because I don't have that sort of exuberance anymore.
I'm, you know, I've lived a lot longer.
I've seen a lot of the stuff that they've already seen and it's lost its magic.
And that's, you know, that's the wonderful thing about kids is they bring that magic back.
And if you're willing to put up with the noise and Legos that you step on, it can be really useful.
I agree.
I agree.
And this is a good reminder for me because I am in it, in it right now.
God bless you, man.
And let's go deeper in curiosity too, because I think you cannot truly have creativity without curiosity.
And when we think about the conversations that we have Um, a lot of times we might be willing to be curious.
We might be willing to be creative, but hypothetically.
I know this is mind blowing, but not everybody has listened to this specific podcast episode or read your books yet.
Yeah.
We're getting there.
We're getting there.
So when we find ourselves in those conversations and a person is not being willing to be creative or curious, how can we trigger that in other people?
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The best way that I've found is to try to figure out what's holding them back.
Most people are resistant to it because they've been taught to be resistant, because they've been rewarded for holding back, because they think that there's a cost that they're not willing to pay.
To take those risks, that they'll look silly or they'll look weak or whatever.
And so understanding, beginning to understand what the motivation is behind that resistance, as opposed to just pushing at the resistance or trying to model it for them, which is the other way to do it.
I think understanding what's holding them back.
And not just dismissing it, but respecting it understanding okay, this is someone who's been trained to announce what they know and stand behind it, no matter what.
And showing them that you can have strong opinions, but maybe they can be lightly held.
Maybe there's a balance here.
But first you have to understand sort of where they're coming from.
And I think that comes from your own curiosity.
And it models something to them that they can then take or not take.
It's up to them.
But if you're trying to win somebody over, behavior change is really hard.
And it doesn't come from just yelling at people or from repeating your point of view over and over again.
It comes from finding common ground.
It comes from understanding what's holding them back and seeing what you can do to help them through that, to show them that okay, my goal is to be the best leader possible.
I've been told for years that that means nothing.
Having a ramrod straight vision great, you want to be the best leader possible?
All right.
So let's look at all of this data and all these stats and all these things that show that the the strongest teams out there are the ones that actually listen to each other, that do grow into okay.
So if you want to be the strongest leader possible, you might have to shift this belief system, but That requires really understanding somebody's core motivation and where they're coming from.
And that takes patience, more patience than certainly I have had many, many times.
But when I have had it, it's led to the best outcomes for both the people that I've been working with and for myself.
Yep, I agree 100%.
And that is the key word, patience.
It takes time.
Trust takes time.
And a lot of times, when it comes to the defensive posture that they're taking, it's because they don't trust you enough to show those parts of themselves that are not as strong.
And so when we're thinking about getting somebody to trust us and recognizing that it takes time, and recognizing also we need to get common ground.
What would you say holds us back from getting common ground?
Because this is a term that we throw around a lot and you've mentioned it about two or three times thus far in this podcast and I agree 100.
And I think when it comes to common ground, we don't fully understand what that means.
Because I think when people think about the word common ground, they think I need to get this person to agree with my ground and then we will be common.
So in your experience, what tools or techniques have you used to get common ground?
So my sense of finding common ground when I work with people is to look for the fear.
That's how I approach it because that's usually what we all have in common at some level.
Our behavior is motivated at its heart usually in some way by fear.
And if you can find what you're both afraid of, if you can find that you're both, you know we're arguing because neither of us wants to fail.
We're both afraid of failure.
Okay, but my failure looks different than yours.
Okay, let's talk about that.
Why does mine look different than yours?
Okay, now we can get, so is there a solution that answers both of our types of failure?
Okay, well.
I can take a risk, but we're going to put some boundaries on it so that it doesn't go.
You're afraid of being out of control and I'm afraid of being narrow and boring.
So let's try to find a way where we get to experiment, but with some boundaries.
Okay.
That's something that answers both of our fears of failure.
Now we can go forward with that.
But that first requires getting past me saying yes, you saying no, me saying yes, you saying no, and me and us both walking away thinking you know what a stubborn jerk.
First you got to find out what's at the heart of that um, and that can be really, really hard, and i think there's a there's often a misperception that you have to be um, connected deeply with somebody first before you get open and vulnerable with them, and my experience is that actually it's the other way around, that you become close to somebody by taking those risks and surviving them together, by being open and vulnerable first.
Um, that that's sort of the cost of entry.
It's the currency that we spend to to get the belonging and the connection that we seek.
So you know, when I'm talking to leaders about that and trying to encourage them to find ways to build connection, to find common ground, I try to reiterate to them that their job as a leader is not to To force openness or not to force intimacy and vulnerability, but rather sort of to make it survivable, to build that experience into the everyday in small ways, so that people get comfortable opening up and being vulnerable, so that they can really ask each other the good questions that get to the things that we're most afraid to share, which is often our weaknesses, our fears, the dents and dings that have made us who we are.
I've learned over years never to be open because the last time I was open, it was used against me.
And okay, that is very valid.
So let's watch.
We're going to have to work together to get past that.
I can't just tell you to let it go and demand that you trust me.
I've got to show that I'm trustworthy, and that's going to take some time and some effort.
Oh, boy.
Thank you, ambulance.
Okay, good.
I was able to get Pete Kilgary.
I'm never sure about that.
Ben, that was so good.
So quick note to the audience.
We have our five star point.
So if you have been listening this long, I want you to give not don't give it to me.
Give Ben five stars, a five star review for that answer.
That's brilliant.
I've literally never heard anybody say that because we've talked about fear a ton on the podcast.
But I've never heard anybody create the nexus between fear and common ground.
And you're so right because I would take essentially not it's not ineffective, but inefficient and an inefficient pathway to common ground where I would try to get close to the person first in order to find that common ground.
And what I'm recognizing is that it sounds like it's harder or more challenging to find common ground through positivity than it is through perceived negativity.
Because if I ask about your beliefs, what you want, you can still tell me those things while still posturing.
You can tell me your perspective without being vulnerable at all.
But it is not possible to share a fear or a concern or a worry without some degree of vulnerability.
And then when you match and reciprocate that level of vulnerability by sharing your fear or your concern, you immediately have common ground.
Instantly that's that's brilliant.
I've never thought of that.
Yeah, I really fear Pain, the things that we are most Conditioned to cover up and hide and keep to ourselves.
I think are the most valuable things to share.
It's incredibly difficult, But I do find that the dents and dings that we have in our past, pain is a compass needle for many people pointing to purpose.
How many times have you heard artists or creators and musicians, or whoever, saying I wish this had been around for me as a kid, so I made it.
That's coming out of pain that they went through and they're fixing the world because of that.
Um, there's this beautiful line uh, by the poet rome rumi.
He says something along the lines of um the wound is where the light gets in, and while i absolutely do not think people should define themselves by their pain and by their damage, i do think there's incredible value in recognizing it, owning it and not being ashamed of it.
Um, that took me years to even begin to make progress on.
I don't think it's an easy thing to do.
Um, I know a lot of people that are very open about their past and treat every elevator ride like a therapy session.
I think that's its own type of defensiveness and sort of performative openness.
But I think if you can really be curious about...
As I said, the sort of the dents and dings that make you you and that make the people around you them.
That's where you build really meaningful connection, valuable understanding, and that's where real growth can happen.
Incredible.
Incredible.
We always bring Simone in toward the ends of podcast interviews because he's very insightful, asks great questions.
I know he didn't tell you, so I always have to hype him up.
He has the number one negotiation podcast in Spanish.
Fantastic.
Well done.
Working on a book deal.
We got him while he was like the stars just grow it.
You know, so we have to, you know, cherish him while we have him.
Right.
So, Simon, what questions come to mind for you?
I've seen that you talk about very serious topics, but the solutions you you bring to the table are very playful and very like light.
Can you explain to me why, please?
Yeah, I think that that does throw a lot of people.
But I do it deliberately.
I think it's because I'm asking people to really step out of their comfort zones.
I'm asking them to take some emotional risks and play and creativity lowers the cost of that.
It makes it easier for them to do what I'm asking of them.
In most workplaces, risk feels heavy.
Mistakes have consequences.
And people have been trained and taught to hold back and to make sure everything is going to go the way they want it to.
And that doesn't work for what I'm trying to draw out of them.
So play sort of changes the equation.
It creates a space where the stakes feel lighter.
And that way people are willing to experiment and improvise and stretch in ways they might normally be scared of.
So, while it feels light and frivolous, it's actually, I think, a really useful way of creating a training ground for courage.
I think of creativity and play sort of like oven mitts.
You know, they let you handle dangerous material without getting burned.
So you know, while I'm running these sort of kindergarten level projects, I end up with adult sized connection.
And that's what I'm after.
So, for example, one of the activities I run is called emblematos.
And it works like this.
So first I have everyone think about how they would like to grow over the coming year, but not professionally.
How they would like to grow as a person, personally.
And I ask them to come up with a motto for themselves that encapsulates that goal.
And so people come up with all sorts of mottos, things like everything from like I want to get back in touch with nature, to simpler things like find balance.
I've had sessions where people have mottos like more yes and sessions where people have mottos like more no.
So it really, you know, it depends on where everybody is.
They take stock of where they are, where they'd like to be, and they come up with this motto.
And then what we do is I anonymously swap the mottos.
Everybody gets somebody else's.
I ask them to create a gift for the author of the motto they've received.
I ask them to bring that motto to life as a playful sculpture, wild creation that can sit on people's desks and be a vibrant reminder of what's important to them when The needs of the day to day come crashing in and try to push that out of the way.
And you know, as soon as we tell people they're going to have to make something, you can see half the room is thrilled.
They can't wait to get their hands on it.
The other half, there's just ice in their veins.
You can see the blood drain from their face and that's fine.
Because the activities are really designed to be much more about empathy than they are about artistry.
And to really drive that home, again, we use kindergarten materials.
We give them feathers and blocks and googly eyes and pom-poms.
And that just puts people in a sort of macaroni necklace mindset where they're just creating for the joy of creating.
They're having fun.
They don't really think too much.
They're just experimenting.
And we set them loose to create their gift.
And they have just sort of the wildest, most playful goofy thoughtful, thoughtful stuff that they come up with.
And then we bring them back together for a gift exchange, essentially.
And when we do that, we do it in two beats.
So first we hear from the creator of the thing, so that we can hear how their mind works, how their creative process unspooled.
We understand their priorities.
And then we hear from the writer of the motto, so that we sort of hear what's in their heart and what's driving them emotionally.
And everybody, because they've all created and they're all receiving.
Everybody hits both of these beats.
And what's remarkable is that the stories and the insights and the vulnerability that comes pouring out during these conversations is just incredible.
Because people think that they're talking about this thing that they made or that they received.
But what they're really sharing are their values and their priorities and their perspectives on life.
I ran this recently at a law firm.
Actually, it was for an IT group at a law firm.
So not a group or industry really, you know.
Renowned for its emotional openness.
But by the end of the activity, during the shareback, these were people that were talking about divorce.
They were talking about family addictions when they were growing up.
They were talking about dealing with cancer, homeless relatives, plans for the future, secret dreams, hidden talents.
All of this came spilling out on this sort of wave of pipe cleaners and pom-poms.
So, you know, it's sort of amazing to see what happens.
I often feel like that openness and connection is something that everybody is sort of starved for, but we don't realize it until we get a taste.
It's like walking into your grandmother's kitchen and it's like, oh, that smells so great.
I'm starving.
That said, the work that I do falls under the heading of team building.
And as soon as people hear that word, they get dizzy from all the eye rolling.
And I get that honestly, because I'm someone that has always If I'm being honest, I've always hated team building activities.
I would rather run for the hills than ever do a role playing skit.
I am shy.
I am an introvert.
And it always just felt like a lot of effort with no real payoff.
But I think that happens because most team building optimizes for the wrong thing.
It optimizes for fun.
Which is important.
Fun and play is important, but it can't be all.
Because it doesn't build trust and connection on its own.
It doesn't deepen understanding.
So, while it matters, if nothing new is revealed about who we are, then we didn't build a team, we just filled a calendar.
But when it's done right, when you pair that fun with that deeper stuff, which is just the question you asked, why put these two things together?
That's when team building moves from just being a sort of fun perk to really being practice.
It lets you and your team rehearse things like trust and vulnerability and connection when the stakes are low, so that when stakes are high, it's just a natural way of behaving.
That's what I'm hoping for.
So the play makes risk sort of survivable.
And that's the magic of it.
I've got one other story I can share.
And You can choose whether to include this or not, but it was sort of one of the most meaningful workshops that I've ever run.
So the client was a team at this powerhouse financial firm.
And I was asked to come in because there had been a shooting in the offices about 10 days before and people had died.
And they had brought in counselors and they gave the office the week off.
But now the message from above was basically, it's time to get back to work.
It's business as usual.
And the leader of this particular team brought me in because she wanted a moment for the whole team to come together as people rather than as professionals.
And what was really interesting about this and why I tell the story, is because when I arrived, I got there early and the team was having lunch together in the conference room.
They were chatting and laughing and shooting the breeze.
They had sandwiches and they were sort of talking about franchises.
It was a normal lunch meeting between colleagues.
Went on for about an hour.
Then I started the activity that, actually the same activity I just described before the emblematos, the one with the mottos and the gifts.
And when we came to the shareback, It was, I think, the very first person who spoke.
Something cracked open in that room, in that sort of superficial facade.
And one by one, people started to name the things that hadn't surfaced over sandwiches to them.
There was a newfound appreciation for kindness, for family, for joy.
One guy was saying that his father calls him almost every other day and he answers maybe once or twice a month because he's busy, he's got things to do and his dad is just calling to shoot the breeze.
And you could see a look in his eyes and he just said I'm going to just start picking up that phone because I never know when it's going to be the last time.
And that prompted other people to talk about going fishing with their grandparents.
I mean, it was amazing the cascade of things that came.
And what I took away from this was these weren't confessions.
They were just recognitions.
They were truths that had been sitting just beneath the surface, waiting for permission to be spoken, to be acknowledged.
I'm not sure how much they even realized they were holding these things before they shared them.
And the mood became deep, not heavy, but meaningful.
And I think we assume that if we give people time and space after a crisis, or if we just put people in a room together to work together, that closeness will naturally follow.
And it doesn't.
Sometimes people need a little structure.
They need that play to make it okay to take the serious risks of being real with each other.
Ben, I want to share with you something that recently happened in South America.
It's a case, right?
There was a big publisher.
They had 50 editors, So they hired a new financial CFO.
He was an economist.
And he said, okay, let's make people train anthropic and AI to help them.
So they said, hey, we're giving you this AI tool so that you can train the AI tool.
And this is not going to replace you.
It's going to help you.
So, after the ai was trained, the cfo of cfo fired uh, 30 of those 50 people right, shocking.
So yes, it happened.
And well, what was the criteria to fire them?
Okay, fight the 30s lowest editors, right?
So Now they only had 20 editors and they said OK, we're working with you.
We're not firing you, but keep training the AI.
So now these editors are working, but they're afraid.
They're looking for jobs in another publisher's.
And then let's say this guy calls you and say hey Ben, I need you to work with us to try to rebuild trust in the team because I need these 20 guys, at least for now.
So how can we rebuild trust in this case?
Is that possible?
Will you take this case or you or you will pass?
I would have.
Personally, I would absolutely not take that case because it doesn't sound like they deserve the trust that they are asking for.
I think, you know, there are having worked in for big corporations.
I'm used to that dynamic where companies demand loyalty but offer none.
And the idea that people are too stupid to pay attention and recognize that is just ridiculous.
Um, I think I mean no, I wouldn't.
I am appalled that I mean.
This is happening everywhere and it is so unbelievably discouraging and really short-sighted.
AI is fantastic at certain things.
It is great at finding best practices and converging on ways to optimize and speed things along.
It's not great at diverging.
It's not great at surprising.
It's not great at unconventional thinking.
That's a human quality.
To fail to recognize that, especially in a field like publishing, where you're hoping to put new ideas into the world that are going to stick in new and interesting ways, it's really, like I said, just so short-sighted and so thoughtless.
I think it's inevitable.
It's a tool that is coming to every discipline and sector, and we should learn how to use it and use it in a good way.
But the idea that it can replace people until it?
You know, we know it hallucinates, but it doesn't dream.
And I think there's a huge difference there.
I think that ability to put things together in unexpected ways, and not just that, but to recognize that you've put it together in unexpected ways
As I said, I'm a writer.
I love creativity.
I would say the best things I've written were things that I scribbled down and ignored and then went back to and said, oh interesting.
What if I do, oh, okay.
It's not the generation.
The generative element is important, but it's the editing eye that goes back and finds the value there.
That's important.
And that you have to.
They haven't figured out how to duplicate that yet.
Um, and so to discount, that is just, i mean, and this is not new, it's just it, but it it impoverishes all of us.
Um, there's this great quote, i think it's by andre guide, who he said that everything important has already been said, but no one was listening.
So you got to say it again.
And if AI is just going to teach us to repeat it the same way over and over and over again, nobody's going to be listening ever again.
We need it to be said in new and interesting ways.
One of the activities that I run are creative activities, and they're meant to build trust and dynamics between people.
And one of the most rewarding comments I get at the end of a session is when people say the most prosaic thing.
They say, you know, it's really important that we all remember that we're all human beings.
They're all carrying around stuff.
And on one level you can say I see that on every Hallmark card, every bumper sticker.
This is not new.
But why I love getting that is because it's a phrase that has been drained of all meaning, because we've seen it so often, but it's so crucial and critical.
And that if I've been able to create a moment where that vessel has been refilled with resonance and meaning, that's magical.
And that's what makes a long-term difference for people when they feel connected, not just when they understand the importance of it, when they feel it.
Yeah.
Sorry, Simone, I went on a long tangent there.
That's what the podcast is for, Ben.
That's what this is all about.
And Simone, I love that question too.
And Ben, I love your answer as well.
And one of the things that I get in presentations.
A lot a question I get is after we talk through negotiation persuasion strategies and they say what's the difference between this and manipulation?
And I say intent.
So what I teach is ethical persuasion, but manipulation will operate on the same psychological mechanisms.
And when we think about this, with this situation, really what they would be coming to you to say more or less, is Ben, how do I manipulate my people into getting them to stay, to their own detriment, like sheep to the slaughter?
That's essentially what it is because again, they want to utilize the same trust mechanism to trick people into staying in a position to their own detriment.
And so, yeah, I think it's always important to draw that distinction.
We have to understand the intent.
And if we're trying to manipulate people to their detriment while holding the ball and depriving them of the vital information they need to make good decisions, then that is more manipulation than persuasion or anything else.
And it's self-destructive too.
The people that are doing the manipulating think that they're getting what they want, and they're not.
You're not getting the best from the people that you're paying for.
You're getting a really narrow band and you're cheating yourself as well.
Yep.
And it's comical, but it is so real at the same time.
It is dark humor.
But this is the world we're in sometimes.
But that's why it's so important to, like you said...
Just retain that core humanity, focus on meaningful connection, build trust ethically and tap into that creativity and curiosity.
And I love this.
And what I love about this episode is that there were parts that were whimsical, which I loved, that were like playful, where we could talk about creativity in a more ethereal type of way, but then also immediately incredibly practical and pragmatic, where we could actually see, step by step, how can we build trust.
How can we utilize creativity and how can we create the psychological safety for true vulnerability to create meaningful connections?
So, Ben, my friend, you are a master at your craft.
I know you know this, but sometimes it's good to hear it.
And before you go, can you please remind the listeners about your books and your the work and how they can connect with you?
Yeah, absolutely.
First, I want to thank you both because this is just a delight.
I do a lot of podcasts and I've got plenty of canned answers that I can give.
And I didn't have to give a single one.
I got to actually have a conversation.
I got questions that made me think.
Sometimes a little bit too long, so Simone, please cut those out.
But for me, it was marvelous.
So thank you for that.
My work, if the things have resonated, you can find my book.
It's called Safe Danger.
It's available on Amazon and local bookstores and I encourage local bookstores if that's available to you.
Barnes & Noble as well, but it's called Safe Danger.
And then my work that we do with teams and schools and organizations and everybody You can find at makebelieveworkscom.
That's the company name, Make Believe Works.
Amazing.
And we'd be happy to chat.
Incredible.
Ben, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
It was my great pleasure.
Thank you both for having me.
Yes.
