I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside.
She was in the other room and I was like, okay, maybe I'll just try and make this look
really cool.
And so I just got in the bath without saying anything, got a bunch of toys in there
with me, some bubbles, and was just splashing and-
Loudly.
We were in the other reading books.
I'm not generally a person who squeals, but I was squealing with delight just to make
it as tempting as possible.
And she was interested.
She then walked in and played with the bubbles from outside the tub.
And I was trying not to push it.
And she was doing that for maybe 10 minutes and having a great time and thought the whole
thing was very funny.
And then I was like, you know, you could hop in and she was like, absolutely not.
That moment, we all know it.
When your kids been delighted to do a thing and then suddenly and rather dramatically,
they aren't.
Let's get into it right after the break.
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If this line should go down and we only get one thing answered, I think we want the emergency
question.
Okay, let's do it.
Our daughter is two years and seven months old.
And for two years and six months and two weeks of her life, she's absolutely loved taking
a bath.
Like looks forward to it.
It's like it is a treat.
That stopped one day.
Two weeks ago?
10 days ago, Emily?
Something like that.
Yeah.
Screaming, crying, will not get in the bath.
And this coincided with her generally discovering how to tantrum.
But it seems very specific and the other tantrums seem random.
And the other tantrums seem like something that we can, they're almost more minor, I would
say, and we know how to handle them.
I will say we've also tried quite a few things at this point.
We've tried offering a bath at different times of day.
So changing the schedule.
We have tried getting in the bath with her.
And then we've also tried a shower.
Now she will only take a bird bath.
What's a bird bath?
A bird bath is a washcloth with water getting her wet, trying to use a little bit of soap.
One day I tried a bird bath where I put her in the tub standing up and then poured water
on her.
And she was unhappy about that.
So if you ask her, what's going on?
Why don't you like the bath?
What does she say?
That, we try that because she's a very good talker.
And we've tried that and we can't get an answer out of her.
She just kind of gets upset and says, I don't like it.
All right, I don't want to.
Okay.
So here's where I would start.
I would start by saying this to her today.
You know what?
There's something about the bath you really don't like.
I believe you.
Like that's literally your homework today, just to say that.
I don't have some brilliant interpretation.
Like here's what I think this represents to her and with my own kids.
I often don't have that either.
But leading with validation and believing, even when you don't understand, is an insanely
powerful intervention.
It's often like for some kids, it's like the only thing they need to have a little bit
of a movement because you're saying, like, I believe this thing is real, even if I don't
even understand it, where it's usually easier for us to validate something if we do understand
it.
Right.
So I would just say that there's something about the bath you really don't like right now.
We believe you.
And I would actually let that sit and I would have that be the whole thing.
And just see what she says.
I don't expect some.
She's not going to like offer some brilliance.
But like I promise you, it matters.
And just like allowing that be the whole thing makes it more impactful without saying like,
okay, so here's what we're going to do.
So just let that be the thing.
Other things after that.
I would just evaluate internally for the two of you.
Like how often at the stage do we need to do a bath?
The bird bath that you're saying?
Like I refer to that as an important parts shower or something like that, right?
Like sometimes you only need the important parts to be washed.
We all know what those parts are, right?
And it's okay to do that.
Like a kid's not have to bathe every day.
Like nothing horrible happens.
And so I would also just kind of consult between the two of you of like how often do we need
to make this happen?
And you can even deliver to that.
That kind of idea to her by saying again, after this other intervention, you know what?
I know there's going to be a time that bath is easier.
I know now bath is really hard and there will be a time that it's easier.
And while it's hard, we don't have to do baths every day.
We're not going to bring it up.
And we can't do baths never.
But there's a lot in between every day and never.
And so let's almost come up with that together.
Let's come up with a schedule together.
What do we think?
And I'd let her participate.
I doubt she's going to say to you, I don't know how about every third day.
You know, I don't know if she has the math for that.
But I can say, okay, today is Friday.
But you know, there's a couple of reasons why we definitely need to take it back.
If we get really muddy and really dirty, we definitely have to wash that off.
And also every and then pick a number that feels right to you.
Maybe so many days, even if that doesn't happen, we need it.
So let's look at our calendar.
And I'd even give her a little bit of visual kind of symbols around this.
So today, this doesn't have to happen.
Oh, tomorrow, we are going to the playground.
We always like to play on the sandbox.
You'll probably end up falling in the mud.
Okay, so that might be a day.
And then as that day gets closer, I would just prepare with her.
Ooh, this is kind of, I just own it from the start.
This is going to be hard, right?
Like this bath today, oh, nobody's going to have fun.
Let's think together.
What's the easiest way we could do this?
And even then, it might be a stand-up kind of scrub down.
You could call it like it's a scrub down.
It's not even a bath.
You know, you can almost like differentiate it.
And I think like a key, almost formula when our kids are in some really tricky stage is
validate exactly what's happening for them in the moment in the intensity they feel it.
And hold hope for a shift.
And often we do one and not the other.
We're like, come on, get over this.
You're fine.
Or we almost like join in their anxiety versus holding those both at once.
It sound like, look, I know there's, bath feels really tricky.
There's something about it that feels really, really bad.
I believe you.
I know that's real.
And I know there's going to be a dozen feel like this.
And so we're doing these scrub downs and there's going to be a day I know that you say
to me, like, let's do that bath again.
I'm ready for the bubbles.
Like I just know that day is going to happen.
It's not today.
And I know what's going to happen.
And so it really respects where a kid is today.
And it feels really good, even as an adult when you're struggling for someone else to see
or struggle and to hold hope for something different.
That's often enough to help a kid have some movement.
It also gives a kid back control.
It gives them back control.
Bath time can be a place that kids really kind of struggle and resist because often bath
time is associated with going to bed.
Often bath time is something that parents want kids to do that they don't want to do themselves.
And so especially at this two year old age, it becomes almost symbolic of my own person.
No one can make me do things that I don't want to do.
This is one thing I kind of have control over.
I can't control the school I go to.
I can't control how many hours daddy works.
But I can say no to bath.
And then what ends up happening in those situations is we often get more controlling.
And then it only builds a child's reasons to resist.
It actually no longer has anything to do with the bath.
It has to do with defining their independent identity.
We can't fight or win that battle.
And so having this other way of approaching it, validating it, kind of like letting it
go on your side, like people say, on our side, we're going to drop the rope.
Like there's less tension if you drop the rope and both people aren't pulling.
It also gives a kid back control.
And so any element of the resistance that's actually just about control, once it's no
longer about that, removing that factor often allows for movement as well.
Because potty is another area where kids feel like this is one of the only things I can
control in my life is what goes out of my body and when and where that happens, right?
And in potty, I call learning because one of the reasons I don't like to call it potty
training is training really is kind of a method of control.
As a trainer, I'm controlling the process and I think that very set up is just a recipe
for disaster and resistance.
And so here we are connecting those two topics.
So I would say on the bath thing, that's where I would start.
And even internally to yourselves, there's a lot of power as parents at the end of the
night when our kids are sleeping in kind of resisting.
They're like, oh, I can't believe it's been two weeks of this.
Like it's always going to be like this.
I feel like there's power in this system when the leaders do hold hope.
Like, okay, this is still happening.
And you know what?
You're going to change.
It's not that big of a deal.
We're going to figure that out.
I feel like that really filters down and kids end up really filling that.
Yeah.
That sounds good.
That feels good.
And you know, we've definitely seen her go through, you know, phases before and then
just kind of come out of them naturally.
She did go through a phase where she just didn't want to use a towel after a bath for
a while, which I kind of loved that phase.
She was just like, nope.
And then one day she was like, okay, towels back.
And that's something you can emphasize to her.
Like there's something to say to a kid.
Like, wow, there's something about a bath that really doesn't feel good to you.
I believe you.
And you know what?
You know that.
Like whenever we bring up the word bath, you're like, no, no, no.
You really know what's going on in your body.
I really respect that about you.
And look, where your parents are job is to keep you safe.
And there's some amount of basic cleanliness.
We're just going to have to do with you.
But we can really change kind of at what level that's at to respect the fact that this
doesn't feel good to you right now.
But the main message a kid gets is, yeah, I do know my body.
And that leaves them more flexibility when we relinquish control to at some point say,
you know what, like a bubble bath is fun.
Like I actually do want to do that again.
So I think that's really helpful in the long run, that messaging.
And I do think that this, you know, it does feel related to our approach and our philosophy
around potty training or potty learning or whatever you want to call it because my understanding
was, I think like even before I had kids was that it was like a kind of thing where you're
like, okay, we're doing this and we're doing this right now.
But then I don't know from her school and just feeling it out, it has felt a little bit
more like let her lead with this because the more you make a thing of it, the more it
becomes a thing.
And so really like let her kind of run with this.
I mean, I think that this is something that Ian and I kind of talk about just while we're
parenting, like when do you really force or push something and then when do you just kind
of like follow her lead and give her the autonomy.
And so this with potty training, it feels like it's a little bit more, she's definitely
sending signals to us and we're listening to those signals, but we're not pressuring
her at all at this point.
So tell me a little bit more about that journey where you're at.
I'd say several months ago, she just started talking about potty and wanting to try the
potty.
And so we got her a little kid potty and she would want to sit on it and read and just
kind of hang out and talk about it.
And so I think at that time we got her a couple potty training books, potty learning
books, which like I liked reading some of them.
One of them was really gross and remains gross, but then she just kind of she lost interest
and so we didn't push it because it didn't seem urgent.
And then recently in the last couple months, she's gotten very interested and wants to
sit on the potty probably every day and sit and read books and talk about it and she
really wants to flush the actual toilet in her house and she tells us about other kids
at her daycare who use the potty and she talks about what underwear she wants.
There's a lot of conversation about it in our house.
But not a whole lot of action.
There's a lot of sitting.
There's a lot of sitting and reading about it.
A lot of trying.
Yeah.
A lot of high-fiving for trying.
But occasionally a success, which I think is probably it's just from the sheer probability
of sitting on the toilet that long.
Once in a while, it's going to work out.
Oh, man, two days ago she was sitting on the potty and she did poop.
Emily looked at it and said, you did it.
You did it.
Hurray, we high-fived.
And the first thing she said was underwear because she's so excited about getting underwear.
And so tell me about that.
Is she in underwear?
So she is wearing diapers right now.
And I think that a lot of what she is seeing and a lot of her desires are coming from
being in school because it's school.
They offer the opportunity to use the potty.
There are definitely kids on her floor that are using the potty.
And so she's interested and she's seeing kids wearing underwear and she kind of wants
to participate.
Right now she's using diapers.
And what has also changed in the past, I would say month, is that we used to always lie
her down to change her diaper.
And now she wants to stand up.
She wants to take off her diaper, standing up.
She wants to put on her diaper, standing up.
And we have not used pull ups because we've heard that that can actually get in the way
of potty training.
Pull ups at this point would perhaps be a little bit more convenient or easier because
we're sort of putting her into a diaper, standing up is a little awkward.
And also cleaning her up, especially if she poops is not, it never feels like it's as thorough
as I'd like it to be.
So a question we also had was where is this coming from in terms of wanting to stand up
and connected to potty training?
So let's start with why kids want to stand up.
So this is a great thing that she wants to stand up.
And it's actually something I encourage parents to do with their kids when they're younger
to even start to suggest this as a kid kind of moves into that potty stage.
Standing up to me is a communication from a kid that they're kind of saying, I'm not
such a baby anymore in this way.
Like laying on your back and being changed is just an act of total dependence.
And we want our kids to of course maintain parts of them that can get help from other people
right that know it's okay to stay attached of course.
And when they're moving into the potty stage, we want them to feel like they are capable
of kind of embodying their older, you know, more independent self.
And so being changed standing up is really a way that your daughter is saying to you, I'm
ready to move past this stiper phase.
So even when she says I want to be, you know, I want to be standing up, I would just reinforce
that and say, wow, you're feeling like really tall right now.
Like you're showing me, you're ready to be a little bit more independent about all this.
That's really awesome.
Like I would just celebrate that.
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I can't wait to share the excitement with you.
So in terms of this question you were asking kind of, oh, I wanted to feel like it's my
child's interest.
That's motivating this.
And we don't have to we're not forcing her or saying now is the day.
I think there's something in between that.
That's important in the potty process.
And it actually relates to what we are talking about earlier, which is this idea of I see
where my kids at.
And I hold hope for where they can be.
Right, because we do have a role as a parent that enables our kids to feel increasingly
capable.
If a kid at a certain age said to us, I really want to be at a soccer team.
Like we would still have to be the ones to like go look for the soccer team and find
it and figure out if we can get them there, right?
And if we didn't do that, our kid's desire to be at a soccer team, it couldn't be realized.
It would just kind of live as a desire.
And actually when a kid says to us, I want to be at a soccer team.
And then they watch us a little bit going to action, oh, okay, let me look into that.
Here's this option.
They feel from us, wow, my parent really thinks I'm capable of being on a soccer team.
And if we don't, there's a message, not only of frustration, but of a kid feeling like,
oh, maybe my parents don't think I can do this.
And so I think there's this balance with potty that when we do see our kid giving us signs
from them that they're ready.
I really actually think as parents, we do need to take a step because if we don't, we
give our kid a kind of a communication that we think they should stay in diapers.
That's very different than forcing, right?
It doesn't mean, hey, we're doing this three day process starting now.
Not that, but if a kid is talking about potty and they want undies and they're talking
about daycare, I do think we need to say that, hey, you're showing me that you're really
excited about being in undies or you're excited to start being and pooping.
And the potty, how cool, you know what we're going to do this weekend?
We're going to have three days where we say bye to the diapers and we say hello to the
potty and I'm going to help you through that.
This is such an awesome thing you want to do.
So in my mind, we're like the boundaries and we're putting up these boundaries and making
these decisions based on what our child is giving us.
But if we don't do that, kids often take that as a communication that we don't think
they can do that and then they do become more conflicted.
Tell me if that resonates, that difference between like forcing versus providing the
structure to make change possible.
So yeah, that, I mean, that completely makes sense to me.
And I certainly, I don't want to feel like we're holding her back in any way.
And I think we've been very enthusiastic about using a potty.
But like, for example, we've said to her, you know, great, when you start using the
potty, we will get you underwear.
But I'm wondering if what you're actually saying is, hey, maybe we get the underwear now
and we start trying it on or using it and talking about the potty in that way and maybe
it, because I, I was seeing it as a more of a like, I don't know, success.
And that is something I would encourage us to rethink.
But I think that seeing our kids as capable of doing something is often a precursor for
them fully believing they're capable of doing that thing.
So I think the message of when you do this, we'll get to that next step.
It little bit reverses it.
I think she's telling you, hey, mom and dad, don't you see what I'm doing?
Like make this possible for me.
Show me your hope.
Show me the structure.
Show me the steps.
I am giving you everything I have as a two year old.
Give me that little bit more so I can actually make this shift.
And I think so many times it's interesting with parents where either, you know, we lead
with potty with a lot of control, which is not what you're doing.
Or sometimes we lead with almost too much backing off.
And I think that middle ground is she saying, I'm here, help me get to the next step.
And so I would just pave that way.
I think there are a lot of step by step things because when the moment comes like, oh, what
about this moment?
What do I do now?
What about when there's an accident?
What about when they say no potty?
Like truly the potty workshop that I have that comes with a handbook is going to give
you every single thing that is a process that actually not only leads to potty success,
but I think is really in line with your parenting philosophy because how we approach the potty,
how we go about the potty process can set the stage for body autonomy, for confidence,
for boundaries.
Like I always think how awesome to have a potty approach that like buys us wins in the
future, right?
Like just efficient.
That's all I think about it.
And it will just give you that kind of relief of okay, like all of my questions and the
step by step kind of moves are right here.
So I will send you that.
And I think that'll be kind of that how to that'll get you to that next step.
But before we do that, I want to get to the book.
I want to hear the book.
Ian, you said it to stuck in my head.
It's one book grosses me out.
And another kind of aspect of the potty process, I think that kids pick up on is our relationship
with pee, with poop, with gross, with mess.
And actually kind of learning a little bit about that is actually really important.
So Ian, I'm going to put you on the spot.
And I want to hear about this gross disgusting book.
Well, let me first say I do everything I can to keep this discussed between Emily and
I.
We talk about it after hours.
I think as far as our daughter knows, I love this book, but I'm telling you, I hate this
book.
I hate when she makes me read it.
Tell me like, is there a page?
Is there a moment what comes up for you about it?
I don't I don't want to despair, Jenny, authors on your show, but we'll just say, should
I read it?
Would you like read?
Yeah, read the page.
Piss, piss, piss.
And a little bitty push outcomes might be with a teeny tiny wash so far, so good.
Then it goes, mm, mm, says mama, do we have to poop too?
Mm, mm, I grunt.
And then I poo.
There's something about, mm, mm, I grunt, which is what that's a terrible sentence.
Is it the sentence structure?
Is it the noise?
Is it the grammar?
Is it the order of operations?
I want to know.
The word grunt is a, that's a tough place to start from.
But I think pairing grunt with mm, mm, is like, we have other potty books.
We have other potty books that are totally fine and that are, but there is, I told, I'm
on the same page with age of half one page.
But otherwise, I think everything else in that book seems, I think it's okay, right?
Ian?
And is this the one your daughter happens to love?
Because that's always the case.
It's like, read that one.
She, I mean, she demands, I'd say she demands all of them equally, yeah?
Yeah.
And in consequence, but there was a day when this was requested four times in a row.
There's something that also, as a parent, you really, you're reading for your child, but
also, and I think this is coming from both the work that Ian and I do, which has a lot
to do with words.
And so when you encounter something where the words just like feel abrasive, that's, that's
an example where the words just like, they don't work together or something.
I have the same feeling about that book, but I'm, I'm all the other potty books and talking
about, you know, do you have to poop?
Do you have to pee?
You know, that's fine.
Which by the way, I also wanted to say, we also had to have a discussion about what we
wanted to call poop and pee.
Because I grew up and it was called a sissy and a duty.
Hmm.
What about in your house, Ian?
I think, I think just pee and poop.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, the word duty kind of grosses me out.
Yeah, it was, it was a sissy and a duty.
And I remember actually, I have a memory of being in pre-K or kindergarten or something
and telling the teacher I have to make a sissy and someone teasing me because they were
like, what's a sissy?
Um, so yeah, it pee and poop or, or pee and poop and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
and I think the reason these words and looking at our own just reaction, whether it's to the
words or to certain books, why, why it actually matters is because especially with poop, like
our kids pick up on just how we relate to mess and just a period, right?
Like, and poop is, there's just mess, there's mess involved, right?
It's similar to how our kids pick up on what happens when our parents walk into a room that
has toys all over it, how bookshelves need to look.
And actually, how kids end up relating to the pooping process is a little bit related
to how they answer the question.
Like, is it okay to have mess, is it okay to have messy things in me?
Is this allowed?
Is this kind of, you know, part of what exists in our family?
And that actually sometimes has more to do with some kids, kind of poop withholding or
real poop resistance is sometimes a kids way of saying, I'm not supposed to have things
in me, you know, that are messy and imperfect and aren't clean, right?
So checking in as a parent of like, yeah, what is my relationship with mess?
Not just poop, but poop often stands for just like things that are, yeah, that's what
it's messy and it's smelly and, right, it's not beautiful and linear and perfect.
And our kids pick up on that separate from how we talk about poop itself.
And I think especially as we go into the party process, as a parent, it's kind of doing
a little inventory of what our kid might have picked up on there and how we can actually
get ahead of so many poop issues by, you know, thinking about mess in the less black and
white way.
It is so opening and helpful for kids.
Look, everything you're saying, it seems like she is so ready to just like put all these
things together.
And yes, our kids get to an age where when they poop, like, oh my goodness, like I can't,
this is not the same as when they were six months.
And so you too, I think, are ready and deserving of her to put these skills together and be
more independent in this process.
And I'm going to send you my workshop, which comes with the handbook and I can't wait
to hear how it goes.
So keep me in the loop.
And before you go, and I have heard that you interview in animate objects for a living.
I do.
Yes.
Yes.
I don't know how many people I could say that to.
Before we go, I am curious to know what might a potty sound like or what might a potty
say in an interview?
Oh, man.
I mean, I think that the interviews that I've done with an animate objects, often I have
an expectation of how they're going to feel about their lives.
And it's most rewarding for me when how they feel is surprising.
Like I interviewed a subway seat, which I would have thought would be a terrible existence.
But the subway seat loved his life and loved nothing more than connecting with people through
their butts.
I don't know.
I think a potty would certainly, it would be unable to recognize us by our faces.
You know, it would, that's not the part it is so often introduced to.
So it would sort of know us by our tushes as we say to our daughter.
And maybe our faces would kind of, it wouldn't want to look at it.
That would be unpleasant for us.
So it would, it would always just want us to turn around and say, oh, there you are.
Yeah, no, I know you.
I know you.
Yeah.
I love it.
That seems pretty perfect.
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important job you hold.
I'm so excited to share good inside membership.
It's the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global
community of like valued parents.
It's game changing and built for a busy parent who wants to make the most out of the few
minutes they have.
Good inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent
Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julie Annette and Kristen Muller.
I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Brooke Zant and the rest of the good
inside team.
And one last thing before I let you go.
Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle
and even as I have a hard time on the outside.
I remain good inside.
