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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
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Hey everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial, okay?
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Melina, welcome back, my friend.
Thank you so much. Delighted to be here.
Yeah, and we are delighted to have you.
So for the listeners who may have forgotten, remind them about yourself and tell them about what you do.
Yeah, so my name is Melina Palmer.
I am an applied behavioral economist, which is essentially...
I help people to understand how the brain really makes decisions and then how to apply that in the way that you have conversations or are communicating with customers, with peers at work, employees, teams, the whole family, friends, right?
It all comes into play in helping to negotiate.
I know where I'm at in our conversations with people all the time.
And I share that via a podcast called The Brainy Business.
That's the name of my company as well.
I also do speaking and trainings and teach applied behavioral economics through Texas A &M University's Human Behavior Lab.
Yes, this is great.
And listeners, make sure you check out that show.
It is fantastic. So if you're...
especially if you're a psychology nerd like me, you will love it.
And Melina, my humble friend, please give us a brief shout out for the upcoming book.
Oh, yes. So my first book was What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You.
And the second, which is slated to be coming out in the fall of 2022, is What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You and is all about managing change with the science of behavioral economics.
This is great. And yes, listeners, she will be on again to promote and I will use it as a free coaching session as we manage change at the American Negotiation Institute.
Sounds good. This is great.
Well, perfect. So everybody, this is going to be a reverse interview.
So Melina is going to be our host.
I am the guest and this is a fun one, a bit of a new wrinkle on our reverse interview.
So Melina, how about you set the stage?
Sure. So like I said, I teach applied behavioral economics through Texas A &M Human Behavior Lab and we have a certificate in that one of the classes is on internal communication and change management that I teach.
And we've had Kwame be a guest lecturer in that and this time around we said, hey, how about I'll have all my students watch a video of what Kwame has to say with his compassionate curiosity framework.
And then everyone has to submit a question for Kwame that I will then come and kind of compile them together into some categories and ask on their behalf and that we're able to turn that into an episode here for the podcast.
So that is what we have.
We have students asking their questions of Kwame.
Yes, this is great.
Well, let's let's jump into it.
Yeah. I'm going to start with the potentially like big picture piece here being what insights site led you to this framework.
Yeah. So this was actually really interesting here because I was trying to give a name to something that I did pretty, I don't want to say innately, I had to, I learned this, but like what's the process and what is the consistent process that I did?
And so it was back in the days when I was mediating.
So I've mediated hundreds of cases.
And so it gave me a really great testing ground for dealing with difficult people, having tough conversations, all those types of things.
And so I wanted to think about a replicable process and I realized, okay, once things are starting, the conversation is starting, there's usually an emotional barrier.
I cannot make progress until we can overcome that emotional challenge.
So we have to use emotional intelligence in order to quiet the amygdala and calm them a little calm them down.
But of course, Melina, we know we can't simply say calm down.
That is the best way to make people not calm down.
Right? So I had to give a process to that.
And then once we overcame that barrier, I needed to get more information.
I cannot help you to solve problems until I gather information.
And so that's where the curiosity part came from.
But they're very sensitive in that state.
So I need to do it with compassion.
My tone needs to be right.
And then once I gather that information, we've overcome that emotional barrier.
Now we can work together to try to problem solve.
So it was after going through that and actually being mindful during those conversations of the patterns, that's where I said, okay, this is what it is.
And that's how the compassionate curiosity framework was born.
So step one, acknowledge and validate the emotions.
Step two, get curious with compassion.
And three, joint problem solving.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that ends up going straight into a question that several of the students had kind of in grouping them in a category that these came up of in general, sort of, what do you do when the other person is aggressive or emotional?
So some version of a state where they are super upset and it feels like I know there was another question in here of if they're really angry and then I come in and they're negative and I'm overly optimistic and friendly, is that going to set them on edge?
How should you approach when the other person is in this really aggravated state?
Yeah, well, the first thing we have to do is we have to address it.
That's the first thing, because a lot of times people, they experience that, they witness that and they don't know what to do.
So they pretend like it's not there, which is not the best way to handle it.
And so we have to wrestle with that emotional challenge, that emotional barrier.
That's really what it is.
And so first, again, let's actually break down how we acknowledge and validate those emotions.
So the classic term or phrase in psychology is you have to name it to tame it.
And so let's see how nerdy we can get here.
So when somebody is very emotional, their amygdala is firing.
So that's where all of your emotions, both positive and negative, they come from the amygdala.
And so there is another part of the brain called the frontal lobe, and it's the home of the prefrontal cortex.
And so just very big picture, there's an antagonistic relationship between those structures.
And so the frontal lobe is where you have logical reasoning, emotion management, executive function, those type of things.
And so if you're highly emotional, you're not thinking very clearly, but if you're thinking more clearly, you're less likely to be emotional.
In many cases, it's an either or proposition.
And so the part of the brain that processes whether or not a label, an emotional label, is correct, is called the ventral medial prefrontal cortex, or I think it's ventral lateral prefrontal cortex.
Yeah, one of those two.
And so what ends up happening is once they you you actually name and label the emotion, they have to think, hey, is that correct?
And so that calms them down in the process.
So you name it to tame it.
And so we have to go through it.
The only way past the emotional challenge is through it.
You have to address it.
And it's tough. And I think it takes a lot of resilience.
It takes a lot of patience to be able to sit in that emotionality, especially in these difficult conversations where you yourself are probably emotional, too.
So it takes a lot of discipline because you have the right to feel the way that you feel, as do they.
But I think when it comes to the concept I like to share in our trainings called conversational leader, leadership, you need to lead the conversation and sometimes suspend your own agenda, which has to deal with processing your own emotions.
Put them first in order to make the conversation more productive.
And I think this is ultimately a more empowering stance, because otherwise, if we just say, no, I have the right to be emotional, which you do, and I'm going to tell it like it is, which you can do, we have to understand there are going to be psychological ramifications that will have an impact on the conversation.
But here you realize I actually have a tool that I can use to manage these difficult emotions.
So whether or not this conversation is or is not productive is not completely out of my hands.
And I think ultimately, even though it's challenging, it's ultimately empowering.
I think that brings up a really important insight that I think just in looking at all the questions that came in and the way that I think most people approach any sort of difficult conversation is feels like the naming and taming is just sort of like a suggestion, like, oh, that would be nice.
But I don't really like the idea of saying that.
So if I can just in my own head say like, oh, they're frustrated, so I should do this.
It feels like that's that's a lot easier to me, you know, so we're able to say that's how I'll approach it and I bet it will have the same impact.
Right. But there's as you're saying, there's a reason that you don't say like in your own brain, identify their emotion, but getting having to actually say the words of suggesting, you know, it seems to me like you're frustrated.
Is that would you agree with that or whatever the language that is best?
And having them say, well, no, I'm not frustrated.
I'm annoyed or whatever where it feels like nuance.
But you may think as on the one side again, because that feels uncomfortable, I could just avoid that whole thing.
But no, but no, but no.
And it's so funny, Melina, because this is it's become essentially a mental model for conversations.
So if I'm having a negotiation as a lawyer with opposing counsel, I use this.
If I'm negotiating with potential clients for A &I, I use this when I'm coaching my clients who are, you know, in procurement and sales and those type of things.
And they they're saying, I'm dealing with a bully.
What do I do? I give them this framework and I know you can relate to this too.
When I'm trying to negotiate with my son to go to bed, I use this framework.
You know, it is ubiquitous and that's the beautiful thing.
And so the more that you use it, the more authentic you will feel when doing it.
You have to put your own spin on it, but you have to get used to doing it because it is not the natural way of approaching these conversations.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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Hey, I'm Michael Kovnak, host of The Next Big Idea Daily.
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Right. And you do for everyone listening, right?
I know that you don't want to have to say the thing and get and then have them come back and say that that's not how they felt or correct it.
But it's a really important step in the process.
It's not just because Kwame feels comfortable having those conversations.
He suggests it. You really, really do need to do that piece.
Right. That's the. Yeah, absolutely.
Oh, and to be clear, like I don't feel comfortable a lot of times.
I would much rather not do this.
Yeah, I do it because it's effective.
It works. That's why I do it, you know.
Sometimes I'd rather just tell people off, but I just think it does not work.
Wouldn't we all? I think that that actually leads really well into this next question, which is, you know, kind of this question being, does the does the framework work better?
Is it more effective at certain points in a conversation?
So in this case, they're saying it feels like when you're close to a deal, it feels like this is more likely to work.
Whereas when you're very early on in a conversation, when you're further from the deal, that this may be less effective.
I have a feeling that I know what you're going to say to that.
But what are your thoughts on timing for this?
And if it needs to even.
So is there any time where you wouldn't recommend using it in the deal process, whatever that happens to be, and or is it more effective at certain times?
Yeah, and so one of the beauties of the framework is its simplicity.
So you should try to use it at all times.
And the thing is, you have very clear triggers for what to say and when to say it.
So, for instance, if I see the specter of a potential emotion, I'm going to address, I'm going to acknowledge and validate that emotion.
Sometimes I start the conversation.
There's no emotional challenge.
OK, great. So I'm going to get curious with compassion.
Wait, now I know everything.
I know what I need to know.
There's no emotional challenge.
And this is where we're starting the conversation.
Let's just start and enjoy problem solving.
And I can flow through that as the conversation goes.
And so this is like the bedrock of the entire conversation of every negotiation that you'll have.
And then you layer on higher, more advanced level strategies on top of that.
So, for example, anchoring, I'm going to drop my anchor and then use compassionate curiosity through the rest of the conversation.
Right. The norm of reciprocity, I'm going to make a concession to trigger reciprocity.
And then I'm going to use a compassionate curiosity.
Right. So it is the foundation.
And that's what that that's what makes it work.
Right. And so, you know, there were also some questions about when someone else, when they shut down or you can tell that they are not willing to budge.
Is there a point where you know that it's time to bail and either come back later?
How do you make that decision?
And is there any consequence to extending the conversation over multiple meetings or revisiting later either positive or negative consequences in that way?
You know, how what do you do when they are just a wall?
Yeah, it's tough. So first of all, let's let's say this, you know, as a lawyer, I have to at least at some point answer with this word.
It depends. It all depends.
Right. So for instance, my favorite thing to say, by the way.
So I. Yes, yeah. It's the perfect answer because if they need the deal and it's very clear that they need the deal and I don't need the deal, if they don't want to talk, that's cool.
We don't need to talk.
OK, not not my problem.
Right. So that that's one thing to consider.
So a needs analysis leverage.
Those are things to consider.
But let's say you want to have the conversation if somebody does not want to talk.
Yes, that is an an action through inaction.
But we have to remember emotions trigger behavior, emotions trigger behavior.
People don't feel things and then do nothing unless they are freezing, which is something right?
The freeze fear response, you know, just petrified.
So their emotions will trigger actions and behaviors.
And so the stonewalling is an emotional action.
We need to figure out what it is.
And so I might say something like it seems like this is a really frustrating situation for you.
Am I reading that right?
Or hey, Melina, correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like you really want to talk right now.
I'm going to I'm going to address that.
I am going to label it.
And sometimes that brings them out because they'll they'll say, oh, no, no, it's not that it's OK.
Good. Now I have them talking.
OK. Tell me more. And then I'm going to transition into compassion and getting curious with compassion and ask questions to draw them out.
So it's really quite simple.
You treat it like an emotion.
You acknowledge it and have them say something about it.
And now to the point, do we end the conversation?
Sometimes that's the right thing to do.
It's a concept I call micro negotiations.
And so in this call, in this call, in this video chat, in this negotiation, whatever it happens to be, my goal is to get as much as I possibly can in this in this situation.
And when I say as much, I'm not thinking just strictly transactionally.
I'm trying to make it as productive as possible.
But if I feel like I've reached a point where we've reached impasse, then I'm going to I'm going to reassess.
We think about momentum, which is this nebulous energy that exists almost everywhere.
Right. You know, it's like in sports, there's momentum.
I don't know what it is, but they are.
They're getting smashed right now.
What's what's happening?
Right. Same thing happens in conversations.
Sometimes the momentum is moving positively.
We're having a good conversation.
We're flowing. Information is going.
There's the mutual exchange.
That's great. But then sometimes for whatever reason, the momentum starts to die off and I'll try different things.
I'll acknowledge the emotions.
I'll ask some questions.
But if it doesn't seem like we're moving anywhere, I'm not going to make things worse by trying to have an unproductive conversation and extend that in a painful way for both of us.
So I'm going to wrap it up and I'm going to say, hey, Melina, I think we've made a lot of progress, but there's still some things that we need to talk about.
We should continue this conversation.
When is a good time for you?
And so I know for you, Melina, you will love this strategy because you don't just end the conversation.
There's a way that you do it while saving face, but also using some tricks from behavioral economics, too.
Right. Because I'm not going to say, Melina, I'm kind of scared and offended.
I'm going to back out now because now now now you you look kind of silly.
Right. But I'll say, Melina, this conversation has been really helpful.
So I appreciate your candor.
I've learned a lot and I want to make sure that I'm making the best decision for me and my company.
So I'd love to schedule another call so I can process this and think through it.
Right. So, yeah, I'm thinking through it.
That is something that people can respect.
But I'm also going to say we've made a lot of progress, which triggers sunk cost fallacy.
We just spoke for 45 minutes.
Let's not make that a waste.
You don't want to waste your time.
You invested 45 minutes here with me.
We have accomplished a lot.
Right. And so that makes people more likely to be willing to come back if you remind them of the investment they've already made in this process.
Right. For sure. And I know we've talked about this both when I've had you on the brainy business and in conversations when I've been on negotiate anything before and in classes, lecture before.
The the framing and the way you say it is so, so, so critical in these conversations.
So like you said, in leading in here with the naming and taming of, you know, it seems like you might be frustrated.
Am I reading that correctly?
It's very different, like, than saying, well, clearly you're frustrated right now.
Am I right? That's going to get you into very different places.
Exactly. And that's why we emphasize the term compassion here.
Yes, that is very, very important.
And so I want to jump to then.
Well, just really quickly.
So that kind of gets to someone was asking about how you validate the emotions without sounding condescending.
And a question of being, is that just more of a confirmation bias in my own head?
I'm worried that they're going to think I'm being condescending by naming the emotion or whatever it is.
And that's not really a way that most people interpret that.
Or is it a real concern?
It depends. So here's the thing.
Here's the thing. So a lot of times we don't know how we sound.
And I mean that in the most literal sense.
So if I'm talking to you, you hear my voice reverberating through the airwaves, it hits your tympanic membrane known as the eardrum, goes through the hammer and volume syrup, etc., etc., etc.
That's how you hear me, right?
But how I hear myself is I hear myself from the inside.
You hear me through the outside.
And so I literally sound different.
That's why whenever people come on the podcast, they're like, yeah, the episode was good.
But do I sound weird to you, Kwame?
No, this is just how you sound all the time.
You don't know it. Right.
And so this so there's going to be some confirmation bias because you don't know how you sound.
And so one of the things I suggest that people do, especially if they're having a conversation with people who are on their team, friends and family, those type of things, especially if it's a more serious, difficult conversation, I start to ask for feedback.
I don't say how did I do.
I say how did my approach make you feel because there's shocking amounts of consistency in that.
I said, oh, I thought I thought I was trying to be nice.
You took. Oh, I sound like a jerk.
Really. Oh, you said that too.
Interesting. I did not realize that.
OK, so I'm going to make that adjustment.
So I think there's a way to determine whether or not you sound that way.
And when it comes to the the whether or not it sounds condescending again, tone is going to play a role in it.
But you have to develop a little bit more confidence in utilizing the strategy because it is not necessarily that it sound it will be perceived as condescending.
A lot of times it's just that this is not the typical way of addressing things in a conversation, especially if your methodology up to this point has been I see an emotion, I pretend it's not there.
And I hope it goes away.
Then actually saying like speaking it is going to be scary.
It's like people in Harry Potter saying Voldemort for the first time.
Feels weird. Right.
And so I think there's a little bit of confidence that comes with actually doing it consistently.
And with the Voldemort piece, right, to where they go, OK, and we're talking about.
Voldemort, right. So if you're saying it, it really seems like you're angry, is maybe going to come across a little bit different than if you have some confidence in the way that you say that.
Exactly. Exactly. So how does any of this change, if at all, when you are in a group setting?
So if you are having to negotiate with multiple parties and I think in this case is also, you know, looking at, say, not traditional negotiation of attorneys.
Right. But we're saying I'm having to navigate a lot and negotiate cross -functional teams trying to accomplish something and everybody wants something from everybody else and trying to mediate and facilitate that when you've got, say, you know, three, five, seven different voices in the room.
How how do you advise using the framework in that scenario?
Well, we have to remember the the important word of vulnerability.
So if it's just you and me in a private conversation, I'm going to be more willing to be vulnerable with you.
If you use the framework, somebody feels safer.
There's going to be trust that's inspired because you're actually asking questions, listening to the response and then playing off of that.
Right. So it's very rare that somebody is actually listening to somebody else in a meaningful way that draws people in and that's going to make people feel more vulnerable.
Now, as we expand the the size of the group, now it becomes less likely that somebody is willing to be vulnerable, even if you're using the framework, because now we have another element to add to the emotional cocktail.
Which is not just the the fear, anxiety, trepidation, whatever it happens to be that they're feeling, but now there's the performative aspect of it because I don't want to lose face in front of other people.
So I might feel good talking to Melina, but then this Joe character, Joe in the corner.
I hate Joe. I don't want him to know I'm sad.
So people are going to be more guarded.
And so you have to understand what what game you're playing.
So one of the things that you mentioned in passing was like you said mediate or facilitate, you know, so let's think about mediate, facilitate, negotiate.
Those are similar but different.
Right. So if I'm facilitating, I'm recognizing that there's a big group.
I'm trying to keep the conversation going and give everybody an opportunity to speak and have people have a voice to be heard.
Difficult to persuade in a traditional sense.
That's more of like a sales pitch type of thing.
More so than a one on one conversation.
That's more like a negotiation.
Mediation. That means I'm a neutral.
So what role am I playing there?
Am I trying to play the role of a third party neutral or do I have some kind of stake in the game?
That's going to require a different approach to and then the negotiation.
You know, we have to understand who's on what side and those type of things.
And so one of the things that I like to do, especially when we're considering group dynamics, is use the coalition building model.
And so this is when we have multiple stakeholders who are going to come together at a negotiation table.
But it's more complex because the group is bigger.
I am going to do my homework before I'm going to prepare and people are probably going to say, hey, Kwami, how do I prepare?
This is a great question.
Go to the american negotiation institute dot com slash guide and download your preparation guide.
You see how I weave that in, Melina?
You see, always, always even that in.
So you download the guide, you prepare.
And then what I would try to have is one on one negotiations with the key stakeholders before the actual conversation in front of other people.
I want to know where people stand beforehand, so I'm talking to the right people.
So, for instance, it might be five people at the table.
I'm going to talk to the people who are on my team, like I'm going to figure out where they stand.
I'm going to try to recruit people to my team.
And then what I'm going to try to do is recognize, again, the power of momentum.
So, Melina and I chat.
I'm going to open the conversation.
I'm going to talk about XYZ and I'm going to say, Melina, what do you think about XYZ?
And Melina says, yes, I agree with this.
And then I'm going to say, you know, Jim, what do you think about it?
Jim's like, I agree with it.
And now my buddy Joe in the corner, who I don't like, and now he's overwhelmed by the persuasive power of this strategy.
Right. So it all depends on your approach.
But it is very different when you're considering a group negotiation versus a one on one negotiation.
Yeah. I, when I was in a corporate role and was wanting to get an entire budget, needed the entire executive team to buy off on something I wanted.
Took a lot of preparation and knowing that this one meeting was what mattered.
And there were a couple of people that I knew that the rest of the group was looking to and expected them to not be on board and to hate it.
That's where we, where we know that, you know, head of lending and the head of finance is not going to like the idea that I have here.
So I put all my eggs in those baskets.
I spent a lot of time.
I met with everybody, but I spent a lot of time with them to make sure that they were on board and endorsing it.
So they were the first people I asked and they say, whoa.
Well, if Jim says Jim's on board, like, how could I not be on board?
Right. It made it much easier.
Uh, whereas, you know, knowing who may be your biggest adversary and spending, you know, devoting time to the right parties makes a difference.
You're either looking for the snowball, like you said, of the easy ones, depending on what you're working on.
And sometimes it's like, just invest in that big rock and make sure they're on your side and everybody else will follow.
Exactly. So with all of this, if we're looking at our, when we're in person, there are a lot of signals that you can pick up on, uh, you can see the other people in the room who might be uncomfortable or something that's coming up.
Where now in this virtual world that we find ourselves in, uh, what sort of recommendations do you give to be able to have those compassionate conversations when you can't see a lot of that body language?
Uh, maybe people turn off the camera, um, or things are blocked from view.
Uh, you know, what would you recommend?
Yeah, this is huge.
And this is something that's come up a lot in our trainings to the point that we have full trainings dedicated to this alone because it's so important.
Here's a simple rule to follow.
Um, the more emotional the conversation, the more personal the mode of communication.
So I'm not going to rely on email or Slack.
If it's a very emotional conversation, then I'm going to do a call.
If it's even more emotional, then I'm going to try to do a video chat, those types of things.
And then, you know, in a perfect world, we can meet in person, but we're getting there.
We're getting there.
You know, one of these decades.
And so this is, that's, that's a simple rule to follow because you give yourself more context to deal with in that situation, um, less room for, um, misinterpretation.
So that's the first thing.
Second thing is when you do decide that it's better for you to be on a video call, you have to negotiate the platform.
You have to negotiate how you will negotiate and you have first mover advantage here.
And so when you say, Hey, I'm sending you a zoom link, um, in the email setting up, just say, Hey, and what I've recognized in my experience is that in conversations like these, whatever this happens to be.
Um, there's a lot more rapport that's built when the video is on.
And so my hope is that our video would be on so we could see each other and it'll make the conversation a lot better.
So being explicit about that request is important.
That's part of the negotiation and it's something that people often leave up to chance.
I think. So those are the main things and then start to do some homework on body language.
We are limited in what we are able to do and see with the, the small box that we have.
Um, but what can we pay attention to?
We can pay attention to people's eyes.
What are they paying attention to?
Are they focusing on the conversation or are they distracted?
That's an important thing.
Are they leaning forward or pulling back, indicating discomfort or comfort like versus dislike those type of things, you know, and also recognizing.
How you should be delivering your own body language to make better points too.
So for example, if you want to emphasize something with your hands, you need to actually elevate your hands to an uncomfortable level.
This is not how people talk in general, but you won't see my hands otherwise.
Right. And so just being mindful about not just paying attention to other people's body language, but also being mindful about your own body language to, to make your point is really important.
Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, little pivot here, uh, we all, so, you know, if you want to be looping people in to be part of the solution, we've got the IKEA facts.
We want them to be part of this, but is there a harm say when there's, you know, there's not a lot of wiggle room in the, being able to change the situation.
Should you adjust the approach, uh, that you want them to still feel like they're part of it when there is very little influence that they actually have.
Do you have any tips for that?
Yeah. I think what's important is to make sure that people feel as though they can respect the process.
I think that was for me as a mediator back when I was doing a lot of mediations.
Um, that was one of the biggest wins that I would have is when we did not reach agreement, but people would thank me and say Kwame, I really appreciate the way that you, you helped us in this situation.
I think you did the best that you can.
And if they can leave respecting the process, that's good enough.
And so I think it's important to be candid about what you can do and can to do and set that expectation up top, because people are going to always want to have a lot more input and control.
Over decision -making.
And so you need to let them know, Hey, before we get started, I want you to know that the decision is out of my hands or a decision has already been made.
And there's nothing we can do about it, right?
Whatever the situation is, you want to clearly communicate that.
And then you say, but Melina, I respect you.
You're an important member of this team and I want to make sure that you are informed and I want to give you an opportunity to ask me any question that you have about it.
Right. So it's not a traditional negotiation in the sense that we have wiggle room in the actual substance of the topic at hand, but it's a negotiation in the sense that in this conversation, I am negotiating for your respect of the process.
That I'm negotiating for the maintenance of our relationship, even though nothing can change in terms of the decision that was made in the direction that we go.
There's still value in approaching this strategically and mindfully, um, as it relates to building the relationship and making sure the person feels valued in the process.
Yeah. So is there any tip when the person that you are negotiating with is really me, me, me focused and you need them to be looking at the bigger picture, kind of any impact of helping or any way that you can help get them out of.
All about me to help let them see, you know, the group and someone else's side.
Yes. And Melina, in honor of you being a fellow psychology nerd, I will provide you with a study.
And so I think this is from thinking fast and slow.
I can't remember. I read a lot.
Melina, it's hard to keep track.
Um, but there was this study where they had, um, single college students and, um, what they did was they broke them up into two groups.
And so they would ask them two questions.
They were the exact same question, but they would ask them in different orders.
And so one might call this priming, dare I say, Melina kind of, you know, inside joke there.
But so they said on a scale of one to 10, how happy are you?
And then how many dates have you been on in the last month?
So that was group a then with group B, they said the, they reversed the order.
They said, how many dates have you been on in the last month on a scale of one to 10?
How happy are you? So with the first group, when it was asking about happiness first, there was no statistically significant correlation between happiness and the amount of dates that they've been on.
But with the second group, because they were primed with that first question of how many dates have you been on?
They weren't really answering the question of how happy they were in general.
They were asking how happy they were with their dating life.
Right. And so what that tells you is that attention is like a spotlight.
You can only focus on a narrow set of things at one time.
And so going back to the example that you were giving, Melina, is that in this situation, the thing that they are focusing on is themselves.
They're not thinking about anything else.
And so this is another great example of the way you can use the Compassionate Curiosity framework in a more persuasive type of way, because we can use it to maintain the conversation, keep it flowing, learning more information and building rapport.
But then you can also use it more persuasively.
And so you're going to strategically ask a question that forces them to consider something other than themselves.
So, for example, if you're negotiating with you, I would ask you, Melina, I would just say, hey, out of curiosity, have you considered what impact that would have on me and my team if we do it that way?
Silence. Let that marinate.
Let them think. Right.
And so they come up with an answer.
I was like, okay, yes, but have you considered this potential issue?
We're a team that's a hybrid work.
You know, we work in somewhere in the office, somewhere at home, different times.
So again, how would that affect our team considering that unique dynamic?
Right. And so I'm just going to ask questions that get them to focus on different things other than themselves, rather than saying, Melina, you're being selfish.
This will impact my team in this way, in this way, in this way.
Can't you see it? Usually that leads to people kind of resisting.
That's not effective.
Are you sure? Not effective.
Feels great, but just not effective.
So what I've found is that getting people to think a little bit differently and think about different things by asking questions that are strategically focused to get them to consider things that I know they have yet to consider is a really powerful way of doing it.
Yeah. Perfect. I love that.
So as we look to close out our conversation, I think we both know we could talk to each other until the end of days, but here we are.
So kind of a two part question here that, so when you start to get worn down, you're feeling like it is you against the world.
You're the only one trying to be compassionate and make this work.
What sort of tips on, you know, emotional resilience and patience to help with that.
And then also just if you have any thoughts in a larger societal context on, you know, overall compassionate curiosity.
So first, if you are getting burnt out, you're feeling kind of exhausted and you're the only person demonstrating this type of compassion in these conversations and approaching it that way.
Two suggestions. Number one, take a nap.
Number two, change jobs.
You might need a change of location.
But I, but on a more serious note, I think managing your energy is really important.
Managing your energy is really important.
I go into every conversation assuming that I'm going to be the leader in that conversation.
My assumption is that my approach is going to be the one that will keep us on the conversational highway that leads us to a productive conversation and a beneficial outcome.
That's what I think.
And so I recognize that in this conversation, I'm playing the role of the leader.
And so the leader has to make sacrifices.
And I know going into the conversation, they don't have that same responsibility.
They probably don't think about it that way.
So they might be, you know, saying things to feel good, which is, I call it cathartic communication.
It makes you feel good.
You try to hurt other people, but ultimately it doesn't pay off.
And so I know that's going to happen and I need to be strong in that situation and understand that it's my responsibility to bear that burden and make the conversation more effective.
And as a conversational leader as well, I am leading them not in a Machiavellian manipulative type of way.
I am showing them how to speak.
No, no, no, that's not how we do it.
This is how I'm going to respond.
I saw that insult that was cute, but I'm not playing that game.
We're going to do it this way.
And that's very hard, very, very hard to do.
And so I think managing your energy is really important and recognizing that this is heavy.
It's probably going to be one of the heaviest things that we have to do day to day, but we still have to do it.
Yeah. So, for society as a whole, you know, we have a lot of big conflicts that we see in all sorts of areas, not just, you know, that's an evergreen question, not just for right now.
But do you have any insights on, you know, this larger society as a whole with compassionate curiosity thoughts that you have in that?
Yeah. Melina, so one of my goals is to get to a point where we can create a very basic curriculum that could be taught in schools.
Because I know when I was in school, I learned about, like, things like the Pythagorean theorem.
This is great. I can find the area of a triangle.
Have I done that ever in a practical sense?
It's insane. And so we teach all of this irrelevant stuff in school.
Why don't we teach people how to communicate effectively?
Why don't we teach them how to have difficult conversations?
That would be my vision.
So when I think about the the future of communication, we really need to be intentional about teaching people at a very young age how to communicate in a productive way because we, number one, don't do that.
And number two, it's getting worse.
We're in a crisis of communication, in my opinion, especially with the younger generations opting to connect digitally versus in person.
They're not having conversations.
And when you are online, you get into the echo chamber, you're constantly getting bombarded with messages that are what you want, what you like already.
So you're in this echo chamber and the only time you have an opportunity to engage with other people online who think differently from you, it's in a very tribal and aggressive type of way.
And now we take these people and put them in a workplace and wonder why they cannot have difficult conversations with each other.
So I think what we have to do is we have to recognize that effective communication doesn't happen by chance.
We need to be intentional about our desire to teach this and embody that day to day.
And I think it has to start with the school.
So that's that would be my hope.
That is my big picture vision for A &I in the future.
That's one of the things that we want to do.
I don't think there's much money in it, but it's not about the money.
It's about the mission.
Yeah, for sure. I love it.
I'm I'm on the team.
Let's make it happen.
Let's do it. I love it.
I love it. Well, that is I actually even made it through the entire gamut of questions that I had.
Believe it or not, we made it through.
And I'm sure that my students and listeners will be so thankful for you taking the time to answer all these questions.
So thanks so much, Kwame.
My pleasure. Thanks for joining us.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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