Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
You know, lately, I'm just going to admit it, I've been feeling more discouraged than normal.
Maybe you have too.
It's just that there's just so much polarization, so much negativity.
Whether you're looking at the headlines or online, it's so easy to get to a point where you're just exhausted.
Haven't you wondered how did we get here?
Why is everybody so far apart?
But despite all this noise, here is what I choose to believe.
I believe that we want the same things for ourselves and our families.
I believe that we define success in largely the same way.
I mean, you want to be a good person.
You want to feel like your authentic self.
You want to do something with your life that makes a difference in the world.
You want good relationships with your family and your friends.
And yet somehow, this truth that unites us, it has been hijacked by headlines politics, the lies on social media, the busyness and pressure of trying to fit in that it's easy to forget who you are and what truly matters to you.
In fact, I think that's why you listen to this podcast, because every time you listen, you are reminded that you are capable of so much more, that you deserve more.
You're reminded of what matters to you authentically.
And that's why I cannot wait for our conversation today, because here in our Boston studios we have an expert researcher with a PhD from Harvard who's been crunching the single biggest data set on what people truly want in life, how they define success, what matters to them.
These are the kinds of things that people admit when they're telling the truth in private, not the garbage they post about online.
Dr Todd Rose is here to tell you and me there is a gigantic lie that you have been told about other people and the world at large, and he is here to teach you the truth.
The truth is you have the power to change your life.
You can make a difference in the world because your brain rewards authenticity.
Authenticity, you being you.
That is the secret to a better life and a better world.
You and I are going to learn from the scientist and researcher who has crunched all the data on how to live a more authentic life.
And today, that's what we're talking about.
How you find the courage to be yourself, the confidence to trust your own voice and our collective power to make the world a better place by being a better version of ourselves.
Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
I'm so fired up that you're here.
I am so excited for today's conversation.
It is always an honor to be together.
It is always an honor to spend time with you, but today it is particularly important.
And if you're a new listener or you're here because someone shared this conversation with you.
I just wanted to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.
Today's conversation about authenticity and the lies that you've been told is going to be life-changing.
Dr Todd Rose is here to teach you how to reconnect with your true self so you can live the life you deserve.
He is the co-founder and CEO of the Think Tank Populous, which has a mission to use data to ensure that all people have the opportunity to pursue fulfilling lives.
He was also a professor at Harvard University's Graduate School of Education.
Harvard is also where he earned his PhD in developmental science.
While he was at Harvard, Dr Rose led both the Mind, Brain and Education program and also founded their Laboratory for the Science of Individuality.
He's written a number of bestselling books, including his most recent Collective Illusions, which reveals the biggest lies that you and I have been told about ourselves and what other people believe.
So please help me welcome Dr. Todd Rose to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
Thanks for having me.
I am so excited to talk to you.
Me too.
I'm really excited for so many reasons, and here's where I want to start.
How is my life going to be different?
If you understand and internalize the ideas we're going to talk about today, you're going to be more confident.
You're going to live more authentically, which is going to lead to greater life satisfaction, happiness.
But, more importantly, your relationships are going to be better and you're going to have a deeper sense of belonging to the groups that matter most to you.
That's a big promise.
I'm really excited for that.
I actually believe you.
No, I do believe you.
I believe you.
And what I'm excited about is I have this sense that we live in a world where we all feel so divided from one another.
And yet I hold firmly to this belief that the vast majority of us are way more similar and believe way more of the same things and want a lot of the same things than we actually are led to believe in the world right now.
And you're 100% correct.
What we do at My Think Tank Populous, we do what's called private opinion research.
What is private opinion research?
So polling, it's all public.
Oh.
And it has all the social pressure.
Okay.
You know there's a right answer.
And so it turns out everybody's misrepresenting their views.
Right now, you feel like there's this big cost if you just don't go with the flow, or you just don't agree, or you just don't do what you think everybody else wants you to do, whether it's your family or at work, or with your friend group.
And so you write a lot in your bestselling book Collective Illusions about the fact that we are fundamentally wired to conform.
What does that mean, Todd?
Yeah, this is really important to bring up because when we talk about conformity, it kind of has like a negative connotation, right?
Yes.
Like nobody wants to admit they conform to something.
Yes.
But here's what's important.
We are hardwired to belong to groups.
Okay.
Evolutionarily, this is how we survive.
And that belonging can lead to conformity when we feel like we have to distort who we are to get that belonging.
And if you don't mind, let me give you an example.
Please.
I'm going to tell you about what I think is my favorite study ever, because I can't believe he got funded to do it.
Okay.
A colleague of mine in the Netherlands back in 2009 was a little skeptical about this conformity, like how deep it really went.
And so he said what's the most subjective thing I could possibly imagine and see if conformity exists there.
So he decided it was who you think is good looking.
Because look, beauty's in the eye of the beholder, right?
So, and there's no social pressure to be like, you should think they're attractive because I do.
Yeah.
So he does this clever study.
He puts people in fMRI scanners and he does a version of hot or not.
Okay.
Really?
Like, this is why I can't believe he got funded.
He gets people, he shows them a couple hundred faces and he asks them to rate them on their attractiveness from one to five.
One, no thank you.
Five being yes, please, right?
Which, by the way, you do that kind of stuff on the street, you're a creep.
You do it in a scanner, you're a scientist.
But here's what's wild.
So you're in that scanner and you see a face and you say well, I think that's a five pretty attractive.
What happens next is, instantly you are shown another number, which is supposed to represent the average score of everyone who's done this task before you.
Okay.
So if I just ranked somebody a five and then all of a sudden I'm shown well, everybody else said they were three.
Yes, exactly, right?
And then we're going to watch what happens in your brain.
And here's the thing.
That group number was completely made up.
There was no other group.
Okay.
It's just you.
And it was engineered so that half the time, you're told that you and your group are lockstep.
You said five, the group said five.
Okay.
Right?
And on some of the trials, it makes it wildly different.
You said five, the group said one.
Oh.
Here's what's crazy.
On the trials, where you and your group are aligned, it triggers what we call a reward signal in your brain.
It's the same areas that hard drugs activate.
And it's meant to tell you, whatever you're doing, keep doing it.
This is amazing, right?
On the trials where you were like five and they said one.
It triggers what's called an error signal in your brain.
It's this cascading electrical signal that disrupts memory, attention, everything.
It's meant to get you to stop because something you're doing is wrong and you might be in danger.
So this is what happens to your brain.
But that's not even the most interesting thing.
The clever part was then at the end of the study.
You're in the task.
They come and say oh, I'm so sorry.
For some reason, the equipment didn't record your responses.
Would you mind just quickly doing the task again?
We're not going to record your brain.
Just quickly do the task again.
They randomized the couple hundred pictures.
They iterate them again.
Lo and behold, most people moved their scores to align with the group and they didn't even know they did it.
Wow.
You interview them after, they're like, no, that didn't affect me at all.
So when I say it's hardwired, that's what I mean.
Even as something as subjective as attractiveness, we just want to be with our groups.
And there's a lot that we'll do to maintain that group alignment.
I think it's fascinating that there is an error signal in your brain.
That when you recognize that you're not conforming with group think or group look or group opinion.
That automatically signals that you're on the outside and you need to stop.
And I want to give you another example to see if I'm tracking with this.
Because this just happened to me the other night.
Like a lot of people, I am starting to really care more about my health.
And one of the things I am cutting way back on is alcohol.
And so I have this rule with myself that I'm just not going to drink during the week.
Now, fast forward to last night.
I'm out at a restaurant after work and one of my colleagues turns to me and says I think I'm out of a glass of wine.
You want a glass of wine?
Okay.
Can you explain using the research what just happened?
Because here's the thing.
I know I was going to go in there and order a Diet Coke or a club soda or whatever.
The second somebody asked me, hey, you want to have something?
It's like I make a decision.
Reflexive.
Didn't even contemplate it.
You just went with it.
Well, you know, Todd, you wrote the book on this.
So I think that's an example of why this is a really important thing to understand that is happening in your physiology and your neurology and biology.
So what's happening?
It's coming back to that need to belong that we just talked about and the possibility of conformity there.
Because the norm in our society is when you go out socially, you drink.
And people that don't drink aren't fun.
That's the stereotype.
At the same time, you don't want to go against the grain.
Yes.
Right?
But do you know what's interesting?
If I had said to my colleague, you know, I'm just not drinking during the week right now.
I don't think I'm having it.
You know what they probably would have said?
I don't think I would have anything either.
And that's the thing is because you don't have the simple tips and tricks that you can use to not put yourself in that.
Well, I don't want to come off as something I don't think I am.
I think I'm fun.
I think I'm social.
I like to hang out with people.
So something like, you know what?
I decided to take a month off.
Or you know what I decided I'm not drinking on weekdays, because then it doesn't say I'm not someone who drinks right.
It's just I've made that choice.
And you'd be shocked how many people, like the person said, hey, I'm having a drink.
We're at a table with a bunch of people and we're like, okay, fine.
And then everyone sees two people do it.
And you're like, okay, there's a lot of pressure building as they come to you.
And what will you have sir, like I'll have?
What they're having, you know, is just the ability to say something like you know what?
I've decided to take a month off, or whatever.
And no one's going to say something's wrong with you.
No.
But what you'll do is you'll give them permission to do the same thing and try it out.
It's amazing.
And once you realize how many people end up copying you, you'll see just how profoundly we're affected by what we believe other people believe and expect of us.
Hmm, what is happening in that moment where you say okay, I'll have what they're having?
Like what's happening in your brain?
So remember we talked about that reward response?
Yep.
So your brain has what's called an anticipated reward response.
We know that when we're aligned with our group, it feels really good and we want that.
It's not quite like drug addiction, but it's in that ballpark where-
Once you're addicted to that drug, you're chasing the drug.
Everything is about, I want that feeling again.
Of belonging.
And we're talking about a deeper sense that's wired in you.
It's so deep and it's really important.
And again, I want to say, there's nothing wrong with wanting to belong.
You should want to belong.
And you just have to understand when that need to belong tips into being controlled or manipulated, or bottom line just leads you to do things that go against your own judgment.
That's when you start making really bad decisions.
I'm really excited because I feel like this is one of those hidden levers that we don't realize is just operating in the background.
And when you understand what you're dealing with, you have so much more power of it.
That's right.
By the way, Mel, after I was booked to run the show, I actually dug in and read your book, Let Them.
And I got to tell you, there are so many parallels.
When we get into all the tools later on we'll be able to dig into a little bit more, because there's just so much overlap.
I'm excited to dig in.
That's a huge compliment.
We'll get into the tools later, but there's so much more about your research that I want to make sure that we fully get to and understand.
One of the terms I'd love to have you talk a little bit about is this term collective illusions.
It's the title of your bestselling book.
Can you define in very plain terms, what is a collective illusion?
Collective illusion is groupthink, but you're wrong about the group.
So let me unpack that just a little bit.
It formally is a phenomenon where most people in a group go along with something they don't privately agree with, simply because they incorrectly think that most other people agree with it.
Okay, give me an example.
So one of the most sticky collective illusions of all that's been around for multiple decades that we've tracked is this binge drinking in college.
Okay.
So kids leave home, they go to a new place.
They're like, what does it mean to be a college student here?
Yep.
And they all think that most kids binge drink.
And so they go to a party and they end up binge drinking, when in reality, in private, we know.
As a matter of fact, most college kids are deeply skeptical about binge drinking.
They know it's bad, but it's what they feel like they need to do to belong, to be a college student.
Wow.
And it turns out was what we can talk about later.
No amount of trying to tell them how bad drinking is works.
In fact, it propagates the illusion.
Oh, that it's a problem and that everybody's doing it.
Yeah.
Why would all the administration put all these posters up telling us about the dangers of binge drinking if people weren't binge drinking?
And so it ends up fueling the illusion.
And so what you need is to have social proof where you have popular kids, other people just being like I don't binge drink.
Why would I binge drink?
You can't lecture or try to persuade.
You have to just reveal.
But this happens all the time.
What's crazy is the phenomenon of collective illusions we've known about for about 100 years in research.
It goes back further, obviously, because The Emperor's New Clothes is about collective illusions.
Unpack that for the person that doesn't know what the emperor's new clothes is.
So it's the story of the parable of like the emperor gets convinced by some huckster that they can spin the most beautiful clothing ever made.
And it's so fine that it's invisible to everyone, except for people who are worthy of their station in life.
And the emperor's like, obviously I'm worthy of it.
So they make up this, they fake like they're putting it on him.
And he's like well, obviously I can see it, because if I say I can't see it, then I must not be worthy of being in charge of everything.
Yes, yes.
And then everybody around him wants power and wants to be close to it, so they don't want to say you're buck naked, right.
And then the king's prancing around, going outside.
Naked.
All the crowds line up.
They're cheering because no one wants to say it.
And then one little kid is like, why are you naked?
The innocence of the child to be just asked the obvious question, and then the illusion shatters.
So obviously this has been a problem in humanity for a very long time.
What's interesting is, Up until just recently, the number of illusions collective illusions that have harmed us as a society were pretty small.
Yes.
But you put it into the social media age.
Yes.
And it's just exploded to the point where now name anything that matters in life.
It's a coin toss whether or not you're just wrong about what your community believes now.
Well, I also think, like the experience we all have when you go online and it looks like every single person I mean, I'm a 57-year-old woman, so it's largely menopause and interior design and health products.
Like every single person is taking the exact same brand of supplement.
Every single person is wearing this exact makeup line.
Every single person is buying this particular couch.
And I feel like, oh my God, I'm missing out.
Like everybody has that thing.
And it does feel like it's gotten worse.
And then my daughter was talking today like well, I'm getting targeted for a cellulite foam roller that I'm about to buy because it looks like everybody that I follow online is using it.
And so what are some of the collective illusions that you can point to in day-to-day life, that we may not be aware?
That that's what that is.
Well, let's hit on those, but-
When we think about how is it that we can end up being so wrong about the groups that matter so much to us?
Like, it's kind of weird that that would be true, right?
Yes.
Let me show you, like, two things.
One, how they happen in day-to-day life without anybody trying to manipulate you.
And then let's talk about what social media does at the societal level.
And I think people will have some similar experience, because I can remember the first time that I actually experienced a collective illusion.
So...
Growing up I was kind of a problematic child, which I'm sure we can talk about, and didn't really fit in, except for my grandmother who was like my second mom.
Whenever I was with her, I could just be myself, and I was good enough.
And she decided, I mean, they were very, very poor.
She had me come and sleep over as a kid once a month, just me.
Literally no other grandkids got this.
And when I was there she'd make a bologna sandwich in her little tiny kitchenette, would play Yahtzee together and we'd just talk.
And I could share anything with her, stuff I couldn't tell my parents, whatever.
It was literally amazing.
It was this oasis for me in a really tough environment.
We've been sleeping over, sleeping over, sleeping over.
Then one time, she says, hey, good news.
I'm taking you to Sizzler, your grandpa and I, this steakhouse, this all-you-can-eat steakhouse.
And I was like...
I don't, I was like, I don't really want to go to, it's noisy there.
Like, I just want to be here.
But I knew it meant a lot to them.
So I went with it.
And that's what we started doing.
Instead of just playing Yahtzee, we'd go to Sizzler.
And that went on for six years.
Okay.
So in 2015, we found out she was dying.
And I went back to Utah where I was born to say goodbye to her.
And I was preparing.
I was like my last conversation I'm ever going to have with this woman that meant the world to me.
And I'm holding her hand and we're talking about a lot of things.
And I thought, you know, I want to just let her know how transformative those sleepovers were to me.
And I said, you know, grandma, I just want to tell you all those times sleeping over.
She's like, barely can get a word out.
And she says, she touches my arm.
She says, I know, I know what mattered most to you.
It was going to Sizzler.
Yeah.
And I was like, wait, what?
And I didn't have the heart to be like, I didn't like that at all, right?
But she said just to be honest, your grandpa and I didn't really like going to Sizzler, but we knew it meant a lot to you.
So I'm sitting there thinking wait, we all ended up going to Sizzler once a month for six years because we all thought we all wanted to go to Sizzler, when nobody actually did.
Again, I'd have the heart to tell her on her deathbed that she could have me for a bologna sandwich.
But that kind of like, nobody was manipulating anyone.
We care about each other.
We want each other to be happy and we can misread each other.
And then just like the drink example, nobody wants to question it and we just keep doing it.
You're making my wheels spin now where I'm sitting here thinking what are we all continuing to do as a family?
Yes.
That we all think we're supposed to be doing.
Like, it could even be something as simple as we've always had the same meal for a certain holiday.
Nobody actually likes it.
Why are we not just doing something different and talking about it?
I promise you one favor is just go to your family or your significant other and think about the things you do on a routine basis.
Okay, so give us some examples.
I have friends that have every Friday, we have salmon night.
Yep.
And we watch a movie.
Maybe everybody wants to do that.
It could be true.
It's these basic day-to-day things and just say, honestly, do we still like doing this?
You know what I mean?
And just ask, you will be shocked at how many of these someone's going.
Well actually, if you give me the permission to be honest Like actually, maybe we could shake that up a bit.
So if illusions can happen amongst tightly knit relationships, it's not surprising that they can happen in a country of 300 million people at a societal level.
Think about it.
You have all these identities and you're tied to these groups that matter to you, but they consist of people you're probably never going to meet.
And you have to guess, what does that group believe?
You know what I mean?
So I can know what it is I'm trying to align to.
And here's the thing about your brain that is just crazy is how your brain estimates what your group believes.
Because you'd imagine, given how important it is with conformity and belonging, you'd have some sophisticated way that your brain calculates like on average.
This is what my group believes.
Now, there's a shortcut your brain takes.
No kidding.
Your brain assumes the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority.
The loudest voices repeated the most are the majority.
Even when you know it's not true, even intellectually.
You know oh, this is just Mel telling me this over and over again.
That's your brain is keeping score this way.
So it must have worked.
You evolved to have the shortcut, but you put that into a social media age.
Yes.
Okay.
So here's a stat that blows my mind.
Okay.
If you take what was Twitter, which is now X, Research has shown that 80 of all the content on that platform is generated by only 10 of the users.
80% of the content you're reading on X is generated by 10%?
And here's the trick.
Pew Research has found that that 10% isn't remotely representative of the general public.
They are extreme on almost every social issue.
But you can see the problem here.
Let's say 10% of people hold some view, but you think it's 80%.
I think that's what's happened.
That error signal kicks in.
Unless you're willing to override that and go against what you think your group believes.
What do you do?
You end up self-silencing.
You say nothing.
Or worse, you start saying what you think people want to hear so you can be part of the group.
And when enough people self-silence, The only people left are the people on the fringes.
The 10 that are the loudest, repeating everything that we then say oh well, everybody that's part of that party must believe that.
Everybody that follows that person must believe that.
And what you're basically saying is the research is very conclusive.
That's absolutely not true.
Not true.
The loudest voices don't represent the majority.
They don't.
In fact, they almost never do.
They wouldn't have to be so loud, right?
If you knew everybody agreed with you, you don't have to say much.
But you can see how this is.
Where then you get these societal level collective illusions?
Because we're self-silencing.
And our data on this is we have more private opinion data on the American public than any organization I'm quite certain of.
Almost two-thirds of people are admitting that they are self-silencing right now.
That means withholding things that matter to them because they think other people disagree.
Like this is a very dangerous place to be when we can't even be honest with each other.
And so the problem with that is as these illusions form, okay?
So now I'm thinking, wow, most people, like what happened?
What happened to society?
Like, am I crazy or did everybody else seem to go crazy?
And it's like you start feeling alienated from your group isolated, a little bit resentful that you're having to self-silence.
And we see this in the data.
You start losing trust in other people.
And life gets much worse for you, but it also gets much worse for the rest of us.
Because as a result, we end up with this false polarization, right?
We feel like we're completely divided and it becomes self-fulfilling.
Yes.
We lose trust in each other and we become resentful.
Now I want to make sure that I'm unpacking this, because I think this is so important, what you're saying.
And it is so important that you really take in and I'm going to now call you Dr Todd Rose what he is saying about the data, because this is something that I have held in my heart, that has made me very sad and has also made me pull back and feel discouraged.
I've bought into the collective illusion of what the loudest voices you're saying it's the 10, the fringe are saying, and I have presumed that the majority of people believe in this.
Yeah.
We're the first generation now, as a society that has to deal with collective illusions at scale because of social media.
Like it just, you cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore.
You can't.
And that's a hard thing to overcome.
And when you put it into social media environment, Even if there's no bad actors, just the dynamics of that, the loudest voices will guarantee that you're going to be wrong the longer you spend time on there.
Yes.
But it gets even worse.
So my organization has partnered with other organizations.
We've been studying the way in which foreign entities that are trying to disrupt us have built bot armies.
Yes.
Russia, China, they have millions of bots, some of them AI-enabled now.
And we often think when it's propaganda and manipulation that they're just spreading disinformation.
It's not what they do at all.
What do they do?
The new form of propaganda is the ability to manufacture a collective illusion.
So meaning like literally, like put you in the matrix of what they want you to believe by just peppering— to convince them that their communities believe things they don't.
And that need to belong kicks in.
I mean we're talking about.
So we know, on social media writ large, that roughly one fourth of all the interactions you ever have are with bots and you don't know it.
Say that again.
One fourth of all your interactions on social media are with bots and you don't know it.
And with AI enabled bots, you wouldn't be able to tell.
They are so sophisticated.
So you just have to be careful to know if you just get to that point and understand this concept of a collective illusion, right?
Right.
Group think, but you're wrong about the group.
So why would you conform?
Like if you conform to something your group doesn't want, you're destroying the group you actually care about.
So let me just unpack this.
I really do think this is critical, that a quarter of the content that you interact with online are bots and that you believe that's conservative.
Yeah.
That the bots are programmed to convince you to believe something that the majority of people do not agree with.
Yeah.
I also will extrapolate that that is why it is more important than ever that you stop conforming and you actually take a step back and you deeply connect with what's important to you and that you find the courage to start speaking up, because Everybody else is waiting for somebody else to go first.
And I believe, regardless of how you voted, regardless of what country you live in, there is this deep weariness within families, within communities, within friend groups, to even talk about anything, because we convince ourselves that they believe what the bots and the 10 loudest voices believe and they don't.
And you're here to tell us.
That they don't believe that at all.
They absolutely do not.
I mean, we have the data.
You can download all of it.
We've studied everything from the kind of lives people want to live, the kind of country they want to live in, what they want from education, health care, criminal justice.
It is shocking.
When you get beyond the social pressure and the distortion.
We are unbelievably similar in our aspirations, in our fears, in our desires, but we just don't believe.
It's true.
And so we act accordingly.
And to your point, when we get weary and we just go silent, It's understandable, but then it becomes part of the illusion, right?
It's true because nobody's speaking up.
Because nobody's speaking up to the people that matter most to us.
It's like yelling at each other.
Right.
And so we all become caricatures of some fringe view that nobody really holds.
And so one of the things that I've been the most proud of is and the reason why I wanted to write this book is you know, you give people a concept and people go.
Oh wow, I didn't realize this.
And then it opens up the ability to start talking about, well, wait a minute.
Like, here's some of the things I think, you know, it's a safe way to have the conversation.
Like, it makes me go, really?
Because I've been in a duck and cover mode.
Like, when is this madness going to end?
When are we going to reconnect with what matters?
Like I kind of know that everybody agrees, but why isn't anybody?
Why is there not a reasonable person like oh, because I know a reasonable person doesn't want to stand up and get caught in this crossfire.
Yep.
That's why we're like, okay, when is somebody normal going to pop up and show us the way?
But you're here to say, we all have the ability to do this.
We do.
And it's only we can do this.
Because if you think about it, there are people who profit from the illusions.
Correct.
And especially in a binary political system, there's a lot of benefit to getting people to be more extreme and locked into an identity where you'll fall on that sword, because these are my people.
Todd, I have so many questions.
I am so grateful that you're here.
I wanna hit the pause button.
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This is one of the most important conversations that we have had on this podcast, not only because it has the ability to impact your life, But collectively, this is the kind of conversation that can make the world a better place.
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Welcome back.
It's your buddy Mel Robbins.
And today you and I are learning about this incredible data set from Dr Todd Rose and all about this lie that we collectively believe that is keeping us from living our authentic life, from making the world a better place.
I am so interested in this topic.
I'm so glad that you're here.
So Todd, can you share the data on what people actually agree on and care about so that, as you're listening and watching Like this is an incredible episode to send to family members and to send to friends that you feel like you can't talk to anymore because you believe the collective illusion that they somehow don't agree with you on core things?
So what does the data say about what people actually care about?
So let's take a few things because we can go all day on this, which is pretty incredible.
We studied the American Aspirations Index.
So this was a US-focused one.
And we studied, what do you want for the country?
And there were dozens and dozens and dozens of possibilities.
And what was shocking to me, we found that in the top 10 aspirations for the country, we agreed on eight out of the 10.
Individual rights.
We still believe that in free speech, treating each other with respect, everyone have high quality healthcare.
So there's a basic kind of life we want to live together.
And we know that we owe each other certain things to make that life possible.
And it turns out we agree on that.
Now, as you said earlier, back in the day, we might disagree on how we do it, right?
Do you have Medicare for all?
Do you have more like Romney care we had in Massachusetts?
You know, there are different ways that we can debate how to get it done.
But it turns out the ultimate aims were shockingly similar on.
I find it extraordinarily encouraging to hear that, underneath all the noise of the loudest voices and the division and the bots, that human beings agree on eight out of the 10 things that are the most important things.
What did you find about our personal lives?
Like how do people want to live and how do we like break us?
Tell me the list on what we agree on and then let's unpack that.
Probably the single most important study we've ever done.
That I think has the most implications for society and for individuals is it's called the success index.
The success index.
And we wanted to know, what do you mean by a successful life for you?
What kind of life do you want to live?
Nothing's more important than you feeling like you're living the kind of life that you want to live, even if no one else wants to live it right.
That's literally the American dream.
That's literally like the key to flourishing.
It's the key to social trust.
It's the key to everything.
So we did this, I mean, massive private opinion study with the same kind of trade-offs, right?
Because you can't have everything in life.
Right.
We had 61 possible attributes for a good life.
Okay, so you can pick between 61.
Everything from having a family to being the richest person you know, and everything in between okay.
Yeah.
And then you force the trade-offs in this way that gives you anonymity and plausibility.
So you have to rank what you want?
It's amazing.
We can go into details on how they do it.
There's some stuff on our site that'll show you.
It's really cool.
But you can't game it.
It's so good at getting at private views.
Okay.
So let's talk about what most people see in terms of their top priorities for a good life.
It warms my heart.
The number one priority for a successful life is I want to do work that has a positive impact on other people.
They want to contribute.
In that top 10 across all demographics were things to do with relationships family character, self-improvement and growth.
Okay?
In fact, one of the really crazy ones that I think is important is across every demographic in the top 10 was I want to be more engaged in my community.
Hmm.
Now here's what's interesting.
We also measure how well you're achieving on these different things.
Involved in your community was the lowest achieved of all top 10 priorities for your life.
In fact, more people reported being debt-free than involved in their community at the level they want to.
What does that tell you as a researcher?
It tells me that well, we've lost that civic layer of society that gave us the way to engage and contribute, and they don't know how to do it.
And, by the way, And then if you also assume that nobody agrees with you and everybody.
So what do you think most people see as a successful life?
Same trade-off things.
It flips entirely.
They think everyone is obsessed with status, wealth, getting into the most prestigious school.
The top thing that people think everyone else cares about is being famous.
Really?
Okay.
In private, it's dead last.
Now, let me unpack why that really matters, okay?
Because there's an important thing about collective illusions, which is this.
This generation's illusions tend to become next generation's private opinion if you don't do something.
Say that again?
This generation's collective illusions tend to become next generation's private opinion.
So let's use the example of fame.
Because young kids don't know that we're lying.
So young kids look to culture, look to media, like look to each other.
What do we believe?
What do we aspire to?
So my colleagues at UCLA have tracked the effects of culture and media on middle school kids for a very long time.
Up until a few years ago, the top thing that emerged every year had to do with character.
Think like Mr. Rogers kind of stuff, right?
Wonderful.
A few years ago, it switched to I want to be famous and it hasn't changed back.
I remember they interviewed one kid in the study and he said, I want to have a million followers.
They said, okay, for what?
And he said, doesn't matter.
So it's bad enough when these illusions lead our young kids to pursue dead ends that we know.
We know that's not how you live a good life.
That's bad enough.
But when it starts to become about the fundamental assumptions of democracy, of free society, of our shared humanity, you can see the real danger to us individually and collectively.
So if this generation's collective illusion is that the number one aspiration in life is being famous, because they have bought into the lie that that's what everybody else prioritizes and values, that's what everybody else thinks matters, how does that impact the next generation when it comes to their private opinion?
So because, again, they don't know it's a lie?
Yes.
And they're looking to society to tell them initially what to value.
Like we're social species.
Yes.
We internalize the norms, the aspirations.
What does it mean to succeed?
And they will internalize that as, well, that's what I believe.
I mean, they genuinely believe it.
They're not lying.
The kids aren't lying.
They'll learn the hard way again, just like we all have.
That that's a really bad way to think about living a good life.
But that's really sad.
I mean, it has to come to that.
At the end of the day, like what's so important about this?
And we can talk about why.
When it comes to collective illusions, it's about individuals.
It's about authenticity.
Authenticity is the kryptonite of collective illusions.
Silence is never the answer.
Authenticity always is.
So is the reason why so many people are miserable as they're chasing success is because they're chasing a version of success that they believe other people have.
And let's be fair to all of us.
We want to be successful on our own terms.
And we also would love to be recognized for For that.
But for what?
So if I think being successful is finding fulfillment and doing something like literally most people's view of success, is getting meaning in their life by contributing to the lives of other people.
That's literally if I could sum it up, right?
Well, I want to do that, but I would also love that you recognize that I do that and it's valuable.
Like nothing wrong with wanting society to recognize my accomplishments, my aspirations and validate them.
Yeah.
The slippery slope is I can without thinking, just like with your drinking example, where you're like I didn't even think about it and suddenly I'm having a glass of wine.
Yes.
Without thinking about it, we can easily slip into wanting their affirmation first and corrupting what we choose to do as a result.
And I'll give you why this matters.
In our research, we linked achievement on that success index to life satisfaction.
Like how happy are you with your life?
Here's what was amazing.
To the extent that you were achieving on your private priorities.
And just to make sure I'm tracking with you.
People publicly say I want the fame, I want the house, I want the car, I want the followers.
I want the fancy car, the biggest house.
But what secretly matters to you is your family, your friendships.
My community.
My community.
Being a good person.
If you achieve on those, it directly increases life satisfaction.
In fact, just- If you directly achieve on the things that are private.
Yes, and here's the thing.
It was such a big effect.
Because people are only achieving about 50% of their own priorities right now.
If you bump that up by just 20 points, which is actually not hard, when what we care about is being a good person, being involved in your community, anyone can do that right.
Yeah.
It led to an increase in life satisfaction that was the same as doubling your salary.
Wow.
Okay, so it's a big deal.
But now flip it around.
No amount of achievement on what you think other people value increases life satisfaction at all.
It is an absolute dead end.
I mean, so this is what I say.
This sort of personal success, I think, is the most important illusion we've ever found, because it completely corrupts your own life.
It leads to misery, right?
And it's the one illusion that only you can solve.
You have the power right now to solve that one, right?
You don't need anyone's permission to start making different choices about the life you live.
To get honest with yourself about what privately matters and to stop obsessing about what you think everybody else thinks, because you're here to tell us all of that is an illusion.
What you think other people think isn't even what they privately believe.
The group doesn't even believe the thing that you're about to conform to.
And so when you do it, and enough of us do it, we literally destroy the very group that we care about.
And when you listen and that's why I love this conversation you're being reminded of the things that privately, you know deep down are true.
And that you can, from this moment forward, start living your life with the truth, because the data shows it.
Ask yourself, how would you behave if you knew for sure that this thing was an illusion.
If you knew for sure your group didn't believe the thing that this fringe is just shouting at you.
Well, you'd probably be talking to your friends more.
You'd probably be involved in your community.
Yeah.
You'd probably wear what you want to wear.
Yeah.
You'd probably speak up more, you know, because what happens when you recognize so much of the noise is noise and you're 80 of us, based on the eight out of 10 data that you have been crunching really want the same things.
We may disagree a little bit on how to achieve it, but we want the same things.
And the kryptonite you said to exploding all of this noise?
Is you personally starting to make decisions, day by day, conversation by conversation, moment by moment, that really align with those deeper things that you want for yourself?
Because this is how we live our lives and the illusion that's like darkening our doorstep here.
Because...
If you look at the research on what happens when we self-silence.
So let's look at the downside of it and then look at the upside of being authentic.
The downside of self-silencing is shocking, okay?
So research that followed longitudinally people who were self-silencing and people who weren't.
Self-silencers actually have dramatically higher rates of cardiovascular disease strokes, high cholesterol, everything.
And there's a mechanism for it, which is basically when you're self silencer or misrepresenting your views, you get this cognitive dissonance.
You know this kind of like.
I know I'm not being honest.
Cortisol levels elevate and they stay elevated.
And cortisol is good in the short term when you're under threat and absolutely toxic, breaks down blood vessels, everything.
The study I'm referring to actually tracked women who have much higher rates of self-silencing and just found when you look at all the gaps in mental health issues, there's usually a gender gap, right?
Eating disorders, depression, anxiety.
Autoimmune disorders.
Autoimmune disorders.
When you control for rates of self-silencing, the gender gap disappears.
This is a big deal.
This is a big deal for your physical health.
What does that mean to the person listening who knows that you're the person that stays silent in meetings?
You're the person that doesn't rock the boat.
So you're in conflict with your privately held beliefs with yourself.
Yeah.
And you're living like that.
And what you're saying is, based on the research, women do this more than men.
And there's lots of reasons why.
But in the data...
When you look at people who are self-silencers, it has massively negative health outcomes.
But when you remove the gender piece, When you remove the self-silencing the effect of that, it turns out there isn't a gender gap in those things.
It's about self-silencing.
Like, that's not everything, right?
There's lots of reasons why we can end up with anxiety.
But I think the reason I say this is that when we self-silence, I think we tend to think that it's sort of benign right.
Right.
It's not much of a cost.
Yeah, I don't feel so good, but look, I get to fit in.
What I want to show you is, no, there is a profound cost to your physical health, right?
There is a cost to your psychological health.
I mean, self-sufficiency is correlated with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, all these things.
And there is a cost to humanity, right in the false polarization, the distrust, the resentment that is pervasive in society today.
And democracies do not survive this kind of threat.
And I will say one thing which is one of my favorite psychologists, the humanist Carl Rogers, said all of problems in society, from nations against nations, groups against groups, boil down to individuals at war with themselves.
Hmm.
When we start to misrepresent our views, when we self-silence to fit in, we're at war with ourselves.
You're creating this war internally because you're forcing yourself to stay silent on something you don't agree with.
That's right.
So you're internalizing all the downside and you don't recognize it.
And what's funny is we don't connect those dots.
We start seeing our health start to fail.
We see our mental health start to deteriorate.
And we look for all these reasons.
I don't think it's coincidental.
I don't think it's the only cause, but I think it's coincidental that our youngest generation that was literally born online has this skyrocketing anxiety and mental health challenges that are real.
And they're coming from a number of places.
Right.
But for sure.
One we control.
Because we know in our data that Gen Z is self-silencing at the highest rate of any demographic that we've ever studied.
Why is that?
Because they're online more than anybody else.
And how does being online all the time reinforce this self-silencing?
Because when I'm in person, I get a lot more cues.
First of all, I know they're real people.
I know a lot of them.
When I'm online, I'm getting inundated with likes, with stuff pushed to me repeatedly.
And remember, your brain's going, loudest voices repeated the most are the majority.
And so on almost everything, especially when you're in those formative years, what do I believe?
Who am I?
What do I aspire to?
They're being shaped by illusions in ways that none of us have ever really experienced.
Those of us that at least remember a time when there wasn't social media.
And again, I'm not saying social media is bad.
It's got a lot of upside.
But like any technology, there's always a downside.
And if you don't recognize the downside, you're going to live it.
I think as a parent, my heart just collapsed because I see that paralysis in self-expression.
This fear that it's going to be cringy, fear that somebody's going to judge it, fear that you're not going to get the likes that you want, which is all driven by conformity, which then has you A silence yourself and then B now operate online in a way that you think gets people to like you, because we're wired for conformity.
Self-silence at work, you don't raise problems.
You don't Talk about the mistakes that happened and how you solved them.
Self-silence.
You start to operate the way everybody else does, because you think that's the way you get ahead.
And by the way, when everyone starts doing that and starts conforming, groups lose their vitality.
Groups lose their purpose, right?
The purpose of a group is not blind conformity.
It's that we're better together.
It's that we can cooperate.
It's that we can exchange ideas, right?
That I can learn from you and be like, maybe I'm wrong.
But that loses its function.
And it just becomes this blind tribalism where we're just like, now who's our enemy?
Okay, we're good because they're losing.
It's just, it's pretty horrific.
The trick is, is if you care about living a good life, authenticity is everything.
By the way, let me just be clear.
Authenticity doesn't mean you even know all the facts about yourself.
It's that you are acting in accordance with who you believe you are in that moment.
That's the win.
It doesn't mean you're right.
Give me an example.
So I could believe that I care about football.
It's my preference.
I love it so much because, you know, my mom taught me it.
It matters.
I do actually care quite a bit about it.
Like, and so I express myself that way.
I follow the Patriots.
It's a little tough right now, but we'll get back.
But let's say it turns out I buy season tickets and I go and I'm like actually I don't actually like football anymore.
Or maybe I never did.
I just thought I did.
Okay.
It wasn't about being accurate.
It's that the choice I made at the time was consistent with who I believe I am.
All the benefits of authenticity accrue from that, not from being accurate.
So in other words, you buying the Patriot tickets is an authentic decision.
It aligns with what you believe to be true.
You going and sitting there and freezing your rear end off while you sit on a sleeping bag.
You know, in the middle of January watching a game in an open stadium.
Quite literally...
Yes.
And you're like, I don't think I like this anymore.
And that is also an authentic decision.
I had the same experience.
I grew up skiing.
Love skiing.
Love skiing with my parents.
Love skiing in Northern Michigan.
Then I didn't ski for a while.
Then I married a guy who's a ski racer.
And you know what I learned?
I don't like skiing that much.
And, you know, I can tell you an opposite one.
Golf.
Hate golf.
No time for golf.
Don't care about golf.
Didn't get golf.
Don't understand why people watch golf.
Then all of a sudden, I'm riding on a golf cart with my husband.
And we're chatting and talking because I just want to spend some time with them.
That I'm doing with my parents.
And I'm like, wow, it's kind of beautiful out here.
Wow.
We're talking a lot.
Guess what?
I'm now thinking I might want to play golf.
Yeah.
And that's authentic.
Correct.
Because remember, what we don't want is for you to stop growing and changing.
So at any moment, you have a set of beliefs about yourself.
Yep.
And as long as they're aligned with who you believe you are, you get all the benefits of authenticity, which they are incredible.
A level of confidence that will just blow your mind, right?
Not arrogance, just a deep confidence in yourself and your ability to make decisions.
People who are authentic actually have higher levels of viewing the world as positive.
Some which it is there's enough and we can grow the pie.
Not just materialistically, but psychologically and spiritually, right?
Like your success does not hurt me.
It actually benefits me.
We can all win.
But more importantly, authentic people have phenomenally better relationships.
Because obviously, right?
Because here's the thing.
As we said a while back, we want belonging.
What we end up giving into is fitting in.
This is so important.
Thank you for explaining it like that.
Let's just take a quick break so our sponsors can share a few words.
And please, please share this with people that you care about.
Everybody deserves to live an authentic life.
And I love everything that I'm learning.
I feel so much more empowered, and I know you do too.
So as you've been nodding along, thank you for sharing this with people.
Don't go anywhere.
We have so much more to unpack when we return.
Stay with me.
Welcome back.
It's your buddy, Mel Robbins, and today you and I are learning all about living a more authentic life from Dr Todd Rose.
So Todd, what is the difference between belonging and fitting in?
Belonging is when you are recognized, accepted, and even loved for who you are.
So you have to do that for yourself first, because no one's going to do that for you.
But when you're in groups, and we've all felt this, right?
Like me with my grandmother.
I knew I was good enough.
Like flaws and all, it didn't matter.
Like I didn't have to be somebody else even in a small way for her to love me.
When you have that kind of relationship, there's nothing better in the world.
Okay, fitting in is you accept me if.
You accept me if.
If I like the things you like.
If I do the things you want me to do.
If I decide to be a computer scientist instead of an artist.
So many of our relationships are built on that kind of if.
And you know just like when you're not physically healthy, you forget what it feels like to be healthy.
Yeah.
When we're used to fitting in, we forget what it feels like to truly belong.
And I'll say this, and I'll say this to anyone listening or viewing, you deserve to belong.
You should not accept the status of just fitting in.
It's not good enough.
It doesn't lead to the place that you want it to lead to.
And it causes a lot of harm to you and society.
What is the first step?
Because I think, as you're listening, what you just said is both a wake-up call and it can be a little crushing to your soul when you recognize your whole life.
All you've tried to do is fit in.
Yeah.
And I know that everybody wants to feel like their authentic self.
Everybody wants to be proud of themselves.
Like you want to lay your head down on the pillow at night and know that you did the best that you could.
You made the best decisions that you could, that you're proud of how you showed up, that you had good intentions.
That is the gold standard that you you know.
It was a good day because you tried the best that you could to be a good person.
And that starts with you being Making good decisions for yourself and not self-silencing to fit in.
Here's the important part about authenticity.
It is a process.
It's not a destination.
There's no such thing as you could put all the work you want in right now and you're like, I'm done.
That's not how it works.
Because a flourishing life is one where you grow and change and discover and all that stuff.
So even if you were 100% right right now, if you lock that in, you'd be inauthentic in the future.
So the things that people need to understand is, again, it's never too late.
This is what's amazing.
All the benefits of authenticity.
The research shows they accrue very quickly to you, no matter how old you are, no matter where you're starting from.
It's pretty amazing.
You just have to get started.
Okay.
And here's the thing.
There's two things from my perspective.
The first is getting a handle on what you think you really believe.
How do you do that when you're like been gaslit by all the noise?
There's a very simple step that I've used and I've shared and people have used and it's worked.
Ask yourself why on things you believe you believe.
Because when they're your honest beliefs that you've arrived at, you know why.
I'll give you an example.
I have a deep commitment, like probably most people, to human rights.
It might be the most important concept to me of anything in the world that every individual has moral worth and we are equal to one another and we are never, ever a means to someone else's ends.
That's how I want to be viewed and treated.
That's how I will view and treat other people.
Human rights flows from dignity.
So I know for sure I believe that.
But you'll be shocked at how many things you think you believe are just the norms of your society that you've never really questioned because you want to fit in.
For me didn't do very well in school.
That's an understatement.
I failed out of high school with a 0.9 GPA.
0.9, that's possible?
You have to work really hard to do that poorly.
I ended up failing out.
A couple of months later, my girlfriend at the time, who was my wife for 29 years, found out she was pregnant.
This is rural Utah.
It's not something one does in rural Utah.
We were on welfare.
We ended up with two kids by the time I was 20, doing a string of minimum wage jobs at a paper route at 4 am to supplement our income.
We were selling blood plasma, you know, all the things you have to do.
And recognizing rock bottom.
I was working at what was Circuit City, which they've gone out of business now.
And on my lunch break, I didn't have any money.
So I went over to Barnes & Noble and I was perusing this self-help section.
I had no self-esteem.
I'd lied to myself a lot.
Mm-hmm.
I knew something had to change.
And I happened upon a book called The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem.
And Nathaniel Brandon said, self-esteem is not something you can directly act on.
It's the alignment of your beliefs and your behavior.
And if your behavior and beliefs don't align, you won't respect yourself.
Why would you?
But this was the nugget for me that completely changed my life.
I had always assumed that my beliefs were my beliefs and that my behavior was what needed to change.
But this book told me that's not true.
That you may not actually believe the things you believe that you believe.
And in my case, it was religious in nature.
I had tried so hard to align my behaviors to a set of beliefs that came from my religion.
And I just failed a lot.
And those behaviors weren't bad behaviors.
They were just inconsistent.
And I thought, wait a minute, it could be my beliefs that are the thing that's causing the problem.
And so I spent a lot of time thinking about, well, why do I believe this?
And I realized I didn't believe.
And once I recognized that and started on the path of thinking about what is it?
Who am I?
What do I believe?
Things got a lot easier, a lot easier.
Why?
Because suddenly I knew the root problem.
I was constantly trying to get my behavior to align, just like if you're trying to conform to a group, constantly trying to.
What am I supposed to do now?
What do we do?
How do I dress?
What do I drink?
What career do I choose?
And once I had permission to start questioning my own beliefs, I was able to get on a different path.
And it never would have changed without that.
I think that's super profound.
I think it's also crazy inspiring that you went from there to becoming a graduate school professor at Harvard and now running a think tank and doing this deeply important work.
And I was so excited to have you on because I fundamentally refuse to believe that we are this divided.
I fundamentally refuse to believe that people are unreasonable or lack character.
I also fundamentally refuse to give that much power to all the noise.
And one of the things that I want to hover on the authenticity piece, because when somebody walks into a room, that is very much authentically themselves, whether they have on just a cool outfit or they have energy about them or there's a kindness to them, whatever it may be, you feel it.
The energy of that is unbelievable.
It is intoxicating.
And it's not a level of arrogance.
There is something that I truly believe that we're all yearning for it.
And we're looking for someone to give us the permission.
That's right.
And they just, they're not trying to get you to do something.
They just, I'm going to be me, you be you.
Put it in different terms, like let them let me, right?
And they're the embodiment of that.
Some things happen.
Because we so deeply want that, we gravitate toward the energy there is real.
So how do you cultivate that energy?
You mentioned let them and let me.
Like, why don't you explain it?
Because how can you use those two words?
Let them and those two words let me as a way for you to start to become more authentically yourself.
Well, this is why I was so excited to talk to you, because my scientific research, the work we do at Populous, my think tank is, I would say, what we've uncovered is the science behind.
Let them, let me.
We talked a lot about the conformity and all the problems there, but also the broader societal consequences of not doing that.
Wow.
Right?
So what do we know about how we shatter illusions, how we get back to authenticity?
And it's the practical stuff you need to do to get on that path.
Mm-hmm.
When I looked at it, when I read your book, I was like okay this, if you just do this, it's not easy.
It's simple, but it's not easy, right?
And so bringing it to a level of getting people on that journey.
Again, authenticity is a journey.
It's process.
It's not a destination.
You can start anytime, anywhere, no matter how old you are, no matter what your circumstances.
Then if all we did and I'll tell you why, if you lean into, let them I mean you framed a lot, and I think it's right around how miserable we get when we try to control everybody else.
But it goes a little further, because as we start to participate in that sort of like, you should believe what I'm saying too.
And what's funny about collective illusions and this is one of those.
Like I could not believe this.
So once you start lying about your views, the research is pretty clear.
You start to lean into that.
You become an enforcer of it.
Because you don't want to admit you're wrong?
Yes.
And because you always think people are going to find me out.
Because I know I'm lying.
It's called the illusion of transparency.
They think everyone can tell that I'm not really a true believer.
And so it turns out that people who lie about their views have a high probability to become enforcers of that view on other people.
I'll give you a concrete example.
Every time I hear a pastor who's anti-gay now, I'm like, they're probably gay.
The number of times that just turns out to be true, I'm like yeah, you're protesting a bit much, right.
But once you're hiding that part of yourself, you start to become the person that literally leads the witch hunt to prove like no look, I'm a true believer.
And so don't be that person, right?
Because the let them part of it is, the more you're seeking to control their people.
Not just their behavior, but their beliefs.
You are leading them down a path of self-silencing that will be catastrophic for them.
But now you also know it's catastrophic for all of us.
Well, the other application that I see, based on everything you shared, is that very profound difference between feeling a sense of belonging versus an obsession with trying to fit in.
To me if you could speak a little bit about how the let them and the let me really gives you a tool to notice those moments where you're so scared of other people's opinion or you're so seeking fitting in that you cut off access to authenticity and belonging.
That's right.
And so we did the let them side, right?
Because you are literally making it less likely that the people around you can live authentic lives.
You talked about this so well in the book.
Like, the kid's like, really?
Okay, for the dance you're going to?
Really?
You haven't?
Okay, they want to wear certain things.
They want to do these things.
It's like, let them.
Because part of that is, let them be their authentic self.
Yes.
Yes, your need to control is actually teaching other people that they have to fit in.
And you are squashing somebody else's authenticity.
Exactly right.
So it's how you stop yourself from making people conform.
Correct.
And then you flip it around and the let me.
I deserve to be authentic.
And so that flip side if I'm going to give that same grace to other people now, I owe it to myself to give myself that same grace.
I deserve to belong.
I don't need to settle for fitting in.
I deserve all the benefits that come from being my truest self.
And I shouldn't compromise that just because I believe other people want something different.
And again, when collective illusions are layered into that, that thing you're about to like, give up your authenticity, for they don't even want.
Like, so what are we doing?
I just want to say I was kind of blown away because when I first started using let them first, it was really to stop trying to control everybody so that I wasn't so stressed out all the time.
Right.
But then it became very clear how my default was to fit in.
My default was to seek approval.
My default was to make everybody else happy.
My default was to buy into the collective illusion and allow that to dictate what I do or don't do, like navigating your life based on everybody else.
And you're telling us all of the things that you believe, everybody else believes.
They're largely wrong.
Mm-hmm.
And we're all desperate for somebody to say, hey, it's time to just stand up and be authentic.
It's time for you to stop trying to fit in.
And it's time for you to make decisions and live your life in a way that really aligns with you.
And I hadn't thought about the let me part truly as a tool for authenticity and courage in that way.
And that's how it resonated with me, which isn't that funny?
And if you read all of our research and you realize wait.
And we do that at scale.
What kind of society would we have?
Well see, I worry that if we let people be their authentic self, that we would have a runaway train of people who are selfish and not conscientious and who are chasing fame and profit and trashing human beings for all the tech giants, and that bots would run the world.
And what you're now teaching me is that?
My belief that if I just let people run wild, the worst of humanity would rise to the top.
And you're telling me, Mel.
Not true.
What is true?
Go back to the success index.
Okay.
The private highest aspirations we have for the lives we want to live ourselves.
Okay.
Remember, top trade-off priority.
I want to do work that has a positive impact on other people.
I want to be trustworthy.
I want to have a family.
I want to be good to other people.
I want to be involved in my community.
I want to achieve on things that matter.
I want an education.
I want these things.
This is what people would do if we leaned in to let them let me.
And the only reason we're afraid of it is because we've fallen for the illusions, right?
We've been with this illusion for a while.
And so we're like, oh, I mean, it's funny.
We ask people about trust privately.
Are you trustworthy?
93% of people said, of course I'm trustworthy.
And I want that.
It matters to me. what do you think other people would say?
Oh, no, no, no.
Other people don't care about being trustworthy.
They're not trustworthy.
And you're like, yeah, it's a massive illusion.
And so if I'm looking around thinking, other people don't even care about being trustworthy.
And I think they all want fame and the zero-sum winner-take-all.
They will step on my thing to get to me.
Why would I want to let them yes, be able to live their authentic lives, because if that were who they really are, that would be awful.
Yes, and so what we end up doing is having to control everybody.
Yes, and that's true in our interpersonal lives that you you wrote about.
It's also true all the way up to our political lives, where we've given up on these fundamental values.
Like you know what, you live your life, i'll live mine, as long as we're not hurting each other.
Like we've lost a willingness to invest in one another because we believe the illusion.
Where did all this lack of trust come from?
I know you have a story.
So social trust, which is trust in strangers.
Okay.
Right?
The single best predictor of the health and flourishing of democracies.
At the end of the day, we talk about trust in institutions.
I don't need to trust the government.
I need to have confidence that they'll do what they say.
So accountability, transparency.
The only trust that matters is that we trust each other.
Hmm.
So it predicts almost everything that matters collectively.
And ever since we implemented in the 1930s in the United States scientific management, Frederick Taylor, this is where we got standardization to everything.
Everything became standardized.
He invented the concept of a manager.
So you just do the job I'm telling you.
You don't get any say in what you do in the name of efficiency.
Every single generation since has had lower social trust than the preceding generation.
Right now in America, we have the lowest levels of social trust ever recorded.
Now, is that true or is that an illusion?
You know what I'm saying?
It's true.
It's even worse in private right now than it is in public.
Oh, no.
Now, here's the good news, though.
Okay.
And this is what matters.
If I could wave a magic wand and say what's the one thing I could change about this country besides, and again honestly, everybody leaning in to let them, and let me, because the illusions would have nowhere to hide.
And we'd obviously see that we have a lot in common.
And that people trusted.
It's this illusion of trust.
Okay.
What's interesting in our data.
So when you look across the world, like Scandinavian countries have very high levels of social trust.
And you can see the cohesion, the trust in each other, the investment in each other.
You only have to get above 50% social trust for that to kick in.
When a majority of people believe a majority of people in their society are trustworthy.
Yeah. good things start to happen.
Yes.
When you dip into like the 30s, it spirals the other way, right?
We start to need to control each other.
We're in the low, mid 30s right now, okay?
In our data though, in private, here's what I think is fascinating.
If you cut the data by whether you're self-silencing, people that self-silence have the lowest levels of social trust ever.
They are like in the low 30s percent of people who believe other people can be trusted.
Okay, if you're one of the one third that hasn't self-silenced.
They have levels of social trust that rival Scandinavian countries.
Hmm.
So there's something about feeling like you're in a society where you can't even say your opinion.
Why would I trust everybody else if I feel like I can't be me?
Yeah.
So this issue of needing to reclaim an authenticity, it might be the single most important thing you could do to heal your society, because it is the fastest way to increase social trust.
Well, I can give an example that came to mind as you were talking about plummeting trust.
If you have ever had any kind of tragedy hit your community, whether it's a fire or a flood or something else, what happens?
People reveal who they are at their core.
Like you, have some illness in a family.
Family members that are divided on politics, that haven't talked for two years, all of a sudden come in because it reduces us to just our core values in a moment where it's all hands on deck.
You're exactly right.
Like I had a couple of years ago, I lost my wife.
20 years.
And it was unbelievable to see people who I thought I had beefs with, right?
Some people we'd had challenges.
It doesn't matter anymore.
There's this common humanity that comes together.
And you're right.
You see this in these trauma and tragedy.
We reveal who we are.
Why is that true?
Because the norm around tragedy, right?
We have norms in this country and other countries that it's all hands on deck.
We just rally.
That's what we do.
I was a little worried some of the last unnatural disasters in the country, when the first thing we saw was the politicization of it, the blaming right off the bat.
But then that dissolved pretty quick at the ground level into we need to help each other.
Because as human beings, we empathize.
That's one of our magical traits, right?
We can put ourselves in other people's shoes, we can think about how we would want to be treated, and we can activate compassion and act on it.
When we see people in those times of need, it reveals what our real character is.
Imagine what it would have been like if the illusion was correct.
That nobody cares, we don't trust you, nobody shows up.
Nobody shows up.
And the thing right now, that's not the case.
But if we don't recognize this problem and take some responsibility for it, it could become the case.
Do you truly believe, based on all of this data, that if every single one of us as an individual were to really embrace the facts that, when it comes to the things that we all value as human beings, we all value the same 80 of things?
So we are all so much more alike.
We want the same things for ourselves and each other.
If we were to operate with that and then we were to go into our day-to-day lives and say my only job is to let other people be themselves and be who they are.
And with the presumption that underneath it, they value character.
Underneath it, they want meaningful work.
Underneath it, they want better for their friends and for their family.
That if we operate like that and then we also say to ourselves my job is to then show up and make decisions that with the information I have, the best that I can day to day, that really align what I truly value, like to give myself that permission and to find the courage to do it, whether it's how you post on social, or whether you talk at work, or whether you ski or not this season, whether you want to live where you live, whether you want to go to Sizzlers or not, that you just start to slowly calibrate your life back toward the things that you know deeply matter to you.
Like simply volunteering in a place in your community would make you feel more authentic.
Changing your major could make you feel more authentic.
Asking your brother or sister for a little help with mom and dad because you've self-silenced would make you feel a little authentic.
It doesn't have to do with what they are going to say.
That's right.
You may have a collective illusion that they're not going to do anything because you think everybody's selfish now.
But that's the noise.
The truth is deep down, people care about the same thing.
It starts with you.
You really believe that that's what's going to turn this all around.
Yeah.
Let me give you a historical example when I say, because it feels like The problems are too big.
Yes.
They must require these big solutions.
Yes.
It's not true.
Let me give you an example.
As a reformed academic, I'm going to lean into a bigger example just once.
Please.
But I think it's important.
When the problem is a collective illusion and you pursue the right strategy, which is this authenticity strategy, right.
It's not about persuading.
It's about revealing, showing people.
The kind of social change that can happen how fast it can happen, how big it can happen.
The best example of this is the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia.
This has puzzled historians for a long time.
It happened in the late 80s.
Czechoslovakia had been under communist rule for a long time, just brutal.
Other countries had tried to revolt.
Hungary, all these bloody massacres as a result.
The Velvet Revolution is famous because it's the only time a people have overthrown a communist regime without a single person dying, without a single shot being fired okay.
Wow.
And people are like, how does that happen?
It's an anomaly.
The best part about it is who led it, and this is how you'll get to the secret of it is a person named Václav Havel, okay.
And I'm going to say right now for everyone listening or watching if you go online, you can download for free.
He wrote a manifesto about this, called The Power of the Powerless.
That is will chill you to the bones.
It will sound like he's writing about our time today, but he writes about how he discovered the real problem in their society was this collective illusion?
So he's had no military experience.
He wasn't a politician.
He was a poet and a playwright.
And he was anti-communist, but he decides he writes this play called The Garden Party.
And it was a satire about communism.
It was so subtle that the censors didn't even know they were being made fun of.
Okay, so he puts it on.
It becomes a runaway hit.
It's like the Hamilton of the time there.
It's sold out every night.
He attends every single play and he doesn't watch the play.
He watches the audience.
And he said, they laughed at all the right parts.
They laughed at things that you would not find funny if you truly believed in communism.
And he writes in The Power of the Powerless that he recognizes the fundamental problem was not that the people of Czechoslovakia believed in communism.
It's that they believed that they believed.
It was a collective illusion.
I mean, I don't know how he got there, but it's amazing he figured it out.
The solution then was not weapons.
It was not even political.
It was authenticity.
He called it authenticity and personal responsibility.
And here's what he did.
He said well then, the answer is we've got to create ways for people to start to be comfortable living in truth again, because we've become way too comfortable living in the lie.
Okay.
So he starts what he called the small works.
How do we help people start to lean into their authentic selves in ways that weren't risky to begin with?
Literally created a literary magazine so people could publish poetry.
They did gardening.
They did all these things.
People mocked him, mocked him.
Like even people who, his fellow revolutionaries were like, this is so naive.
They have all the guns.
You're going to defeat them with authenticity and personal responsibility?
But they did.
And here's what's crazy.
Nobody saw it coming.
The CIA completely missed it.
The KGB missed it entirely.
Even Havel himself didn't appreciate how fast it could change when it was an illusion.
Just a few months before the student protest that led 12 days of protest, government falls.
He's interviewed in an international magazine, and he's trying to rally the troops.
And he's like, look, revolutions take time.
You have to be committed.
He's like...
Look, I probably won't even be alive to see the end of this, but I am in it, right?
Three months later, he was the first democratically elected president of a free Czechoslovakia.
That's what I mean when I say, when the problem is an illusion, two things, only we can solve it.
It didn't require somebody from on high telling us something.
It was the everyday people, learning to live in truth in small ways, that start to build habit that lead to a we believe.
We believe this now right.
And I think about it.
I think about that story all the time because I think, if a poet can overthrow communism under a collective illusion, I think what you can do in your own life.
Think what we can do together.
I promise you the power of the palace.
It's free.
It's like 80 pages.
It is unbelievable.
It is never forget, like this thing, that you want more than anything to be authentic, and you should want it.
It's like almost magical in what it does for you.
And for us is the thing that you should do for yourself.
And again, it is the most important thing you could do to heal society.
Or your family.
Your family, your loved ones, your relationships.
Yeah, it's a journey.
You say this all the time, right?
I think we overestimate what we can do in the short term and we underestimate what can happen over time.
In the long term.
Yeah.
And we also underestimate the power of these small micro changes.
And you talk a lot in your work about the micro changes.
It's all that matters.
And it could mean speaking up at work.
It could mean going to church this weekend.
It could mean volunteering in your community.
It could mean picking up a book and getting back into reading fiction instead of scrolling on social media.
Find the thing that connects you back to who you believe you are right now.
And it doesn't have to be these massive life-changing things.
In fact, it rarely ever requires that.
Again, if you can literally transform a tyrannical society into a free society on the back of authenticity, like you can change your life.
What is one thing that you could challenge us to do, based on all the research, the power of authenticity to do this week?
What would it be?
This is going to sound basic, but it's do something.
You've got to get that action bias.
Again, listen to Voslov.
It doesn't have to be huge.
But find those places where you know you've been going along.
You know you really didn't agree.
Could be eating.
What are some of the simple places where people can listen?
I'm talking literally like, go back to the very beginning.
No, I'm not actually drinking tonight.
Yep.
You know what I mean?
Little things.
Hey, are we sure we want to go to that restaurant?
Yep.
Just stuff that, like, I'm talking about your preferences.
They don't have to be these deep profound, like let's have a political conversation about it could, but just you know first of all, you know it when you're not being authentic.
Like, so I don't have to tell you.
It's so true.
It's so true.
And just say, look, I'm going to commit to one act of authenticity.
And I would say, find the smallest meaningful act.
And I'll tell you, remember that reward signal I talked about with conformity?
Yes.
It also works with authenticity.
Tell me more about that.
So when people who desire authenticity believe they are acting on it and we've seen this with neuroimaging studies and everything they get the same reward response because your brain's like that do more of that.
And then you get the anticipation of it.
And one small act leads to another, leads to another.
It becomes habit.
Then it becomes your identity.
It becomes who you are.
And you won't even realize it happened.
And then you'll become the person that everyone looks at and goes, I want to be like them.
I want to be around them.
The energy you bring into a room.
And the thing is, it's absolutely contagious.
Not only because you create permission for other people to unbutton their pants at the table, right?
Or mine buttoned.
I was like, did I button them back up?
Because we know this from the research that happiness itself is contagious.
When the people around you within your network increase their happiness, you get about a 25 boost for free.
Become that person.
And if you worry too much about the end goal, it feels insurmountable.
I remember thinking when I was minimum wage welfare, two kids, no high school diploma if I tried to think about what life might be like in the long.
It just seems insurmountable.
All I thought was, what's the next step that I can take?
And then you take another step.
And for me, and I don't mean this to sound arrogant...
It took seven years from when I was failed out of high school to when I got into Harvard for my doctorate.
Another seven years before I was a professor.
Like, that time's going to go past no matter what you do.
And when you think about those sort of time horizons, you know five years is going to go by, whether you like it or not.
And all the fear you feel, first of all, I'll say most of it is completely unfounded.
Now you know why.
It's a prison in our own minds.
We're at war with ourselves.
But whatever fear you feel, remember, you know something's wrong right now.
Like the status quo in your own life is not good enough. you know that you deserve better than that.
That time's going to pass.
Just start the small acts, get on that path of authenticity and I promise you, you won't even recognize yourself.
Todd Rose, what are your parting words?
It's easy for individuals. just living their life, trying to make ends meet day to day.
You barely have enough time to do anything for yourself.
The problems in our society seem so big, so insurmountable, that there's like an apathy that sets in, because what could I possibly do?
It's also exhausting.
It is exhausting because it's exhausting in part because we don't know what to do.
We feel like nothing we could do would ever matter and we feel helpless.
It's not true.
Like at my core, I believe it, but I also have the data to back it up.
You matter more than you could possibly know.
That's true in general, but it is particularly true when the problems of our society are related to collective illusions.
Hmm.
You have a role to play.
Do it for yourself.
Your life will be immeasurably better.
You and I both know.
I pinch myself.
I'm like, I cannot believe I get to live this life.
Same.
And I also can't believe how long I spent trying to fit in and how exhausting and fatiguing it was, how long I gaslit myself saying there's nothing I can do and all the noise is correct, when I deeply fundamentally believe that's not true, that we all kind of want the same things.
And then when you realize, wait a minute, if I'm just authentically myself, the illusion disappears.
Do it for yourself just for that, but do it for us.
Todd, I am so grateful.
I am grateful that you're doing this work.
I am so grateful that you are able to break it down for all of us.
And so I just wanna thank you for the proof and the permission to believe in the better nature in all of us.
And I'm also grateful that just allowing yourself to be yourself and finding the courage to start to point your life back toward the things that you know make you feel like you is actually the answer to all the big problems.
So thank you, thank you, thank you.
And I also want to thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for really listening or watching something that will help you be more authentic.
And thank you for sharing this More than any other episode, we do have the power to change things.
Do not buy into the lies.
I really want you to live in the truth.
And I love you for being here.
And I do believe in your ability to create a better life.
And today, after our conversation and everything I learned, I believe in your ability and my ability to create a better world.
Alrighty, I'll see you in the very next episode.
I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play.
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
All right, you ready?
No, you're good.
Okay, here we go.
Okay, gotcha.
Okay.
I'm just going to go drink some water and get ready.
I'm really excited.
Yeah, me too.
Thank you for coming in.
Thanks for having me.
Of course.
All right, you ready?
Good.
Let's dive in.
Perfect timing.
I have two big German shepherds.
Oh, you do?
Okay, I got to bounce.
All right, great.
Let's have lunch.
That was so fun.
Thank you.
Oh my God.
That was so much fun.
Thank you.
That was so incredible.
Oh, and one more thing.
And no, this is not a blooper.
This is the legal language.
You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you.
This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes.
I'm just your friend.
I am not a licensed therapist.
And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.
Got it?
Good.
I'll see you in the next episode.
