Love now and always. The love was stronger than anything else.
And I love you more than anything else. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love. Every week, we bring you stories about love. lust, heartbreak, all the messiness of human relationships.
Today on the show, actor and singer Renee Rapp.
Renee is most known for her role in the recent Tina Fey-produced musical Mean Girls.
On Broadway and in the movie version, Renee played Regina George. queen of the mean girls at school known as the Plastics.
Oh my God, you are literally being so annoying.
You know the plastics. They're rude. They're hot.
They're well-dressed. And above all else, they are so much cooler than you.
So we never really do this, but... You're invited to eat lunch with us for the rest of the week.
Oh, um, that's okay. On Wednesdays, we wear pink.
In real life, though, Renee is open. She's warm.
She's charmingly chaotic, and she is extremely candid. and her emotions are also on full display in her music. to make me hate Boston It's not his fault that you Her first album, Snow Angel, looked at the intensity of heartbreak.
Like loving someone so much you end up writing off an entire city because they don't love you back and that's where they live.
In her new album, Bite Me, Renee shows just how seriously she takes all her relationships. not just the romantic ones.
She explores the intimacy and the pain that also exists in friendships.
These might be platonic connections, she seems to say, but they're no less worthy of an emotional ballad.
It makes sense, then, that she chose to read the modern love essay, This Is What Happens When Friends Fall In Love, by Sammy Sass.
Like Renee, the author of this essay has had to confront what it actually takes to sustain love in a friendship.
Skip every part where I loved you And loved you, and loved you, I love you Renee Rapp, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you. Okay, we are... relatively close in age, you're a 2000s baby, correct?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a 90s baby. Oh, perfect, okay.
Okay, so we can relate, I think, on a lot of things.
Cultural influences. I know you're a huge Beyonce fan.
Massively. You love Beyonce, but we also got to experience what came before, which is, of course, Destiny's Child.
Are you also a Destiny's Child fan? I mean, absolutely.
Absolutely. Like how massive? It's kind of like probably one of the most intimidating groups of people ever put together.
I agree with you. It's really crazy. What's your fave track?
I don't even know. It's hard to choose. To be honest, obviously I think their music is super timeless, but my favorite thing... even more so than their music.
It's just like their personalities. I've been watching all of their old MTV Cribs stuff recently.
What? I don't think I've seen that. You have to watch it.
It's psycho. They're so funny and so pretty and so just like, I was seeing where they slept.
Whether it's real or not, I love seeing where someone sleeps.
It's so nice to see where I love it. I do feel like we grew up in a bit of the era of the girl group, Destiny's Child, Pussycat Dolls.
Of course. Before us a bit, Spice Girls and Vogue.
Do you feel like these groups influenced your idea of what it means to be friends with particularly other girls I don't know.
To be honest, the way that it was always presented to me was like, oh, girl groups are so catty.
Oh, this is so... I never really heard outside of going back and looking at all their stuff now, which I'm sure they were incredible friends to each other because they're still friends to this day.
But the only thing I ever really heard conversations about were people being like, oh, girls are so hard to work with.
You're rolling your eyes for the audio version of this conversation.
You don't feel this way anymore, it seems like.
No, all my best friends are like girls and like non-men.
We're all so tight. I'm not like constantly...
I don't know the mic. Yeah. I'm like, can we all just let's just let's just fucking relax.
That was just such a tired, tired take. But it was always the thing of like, oh. are so hard.
Totally. Friendships with women are so hard.
Yeah, the drama of it all. What? Tell me more about, so you're here to read a modern love essay that really at its core is about friendships, super close friendships, and you're teeing this up for us.
Tell me about, in some specific ways, about the friendships in your life.
You've spoken about your best friend, Aaliyah.
Do you want to focus there? Like, how did you two meet?
What's the story there? I mean, we met working on a TV show.
That is literally how we met. For those who don't know, which TV show?
The Sex Lives of College Girls. we met working on a TV show and we... were like fast friends because we had so many of the same friends from doing musical theater.
And she went to college at, Michigan, which is one of the most prestigious musical theater schools.
I had friends that had gone there who I randomly had grown up with.
So we had like all of this connective tissue that We just had shit to talk about immediately.
And also, I think what really bonded us together was we were both so deeply scared of...
We were so deeply scared. Why? Because we were just like, why are we here?
Yeah. Like on set, like on this project.
We're like, wait, what are we doing? Like we felt like we just had to be like nervous all the time and like worried we were going to lose our jobs.
And I was like, what am I doing actually?
Acting. So it was, I mean, this is such an overused kind of phrase, but it sounds like imposter syndrome type.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so when you're with someone who's on the same There's an equal playing field and they're also feeling that way, yet I feel like she has every right to be there and is so entitled to be in that space.
I'm like, wait, why the fuck do you think that about yourself?
Is there a specific moment you can remember from those early days, like beginning that project, where you two helped each other through that fear?
I mean, every single day. Since I've known her.
We sort of have always had this thing of, like, we'll just, like, look at each other and we'll know exactly what the other person is thinking.
And if, like, any bullshit happens, like, we could be across the room and, like, she'll look at me, I'll look at her and be like, Head to the side.
You had a full conversation with no words.
Full conversation with all my eyes. Yeah.
Yeah. Talking about these like early days of your friendship when you're forming it, people often talk about first impressions when it comes to romantic partners.
Like when you saw her, what did you think?
But I want to actually ask that about like, What was your first impression of Aaliyah, what struck you about her?
I was just like, she seems so sure of herself.
And she's so pretty. Like I was like, wow, like I love, not even in a shallow way, I love a pretty face.
And when I say a pretty face, I do mean a pretty face, but I also mean like, I love like a big smile and she has like the most beautiful smile and is just really sure of herself and is also really aware. that there are things that are scaring her.
Well, I was just going to say having her as kind of a foil for that experience seems really valuable.
Of course. It was like a mirror. It was a mirror.
It was also like I, you know, She had worked... in her life and had like gone to school and like done all of these things that like I couldn't not only I like couldn't do but I like what she went to like the best musical theater school ever that like I
I didn't get accepted to even pass my audition for that school.
So I was like, she's incredible. No, I did not get into like any school.
So I was always like, holy shit. Like if you've made it past this point, like. you had to work incredibly hard in ways that I can't even understand.
There's such a beautiful thing too with like, the admiration between friends, like to look up to a friend.
Can I ask you two, you have a song on your upcoming album, It's called That's So Funny.
And there's a lyric in it where you specifically reference, right?
And I feel like, you know, we're used to people saying, Name dropping in songs about romantic love.
But I think it's much rarer in songs about platonic love.
Can you talk about that choice? Like, do you think friendship gets kind of short term?
I mean, I think that, okay, this is not, I was like, no, I don't want to, nah, I will.
I think that when it comes to, like— like pop music, right?
So much of music is inspired by like love and relationships or like hate, which is basically just like, uh, a cover up for like the deep disappointment and love that you like actually feel slash felt.
Um, so, you know, it, It's definitely a massive part of music.
It will always be. Romantic love, you mean.
Yeah, of course. It's the greatest thing in the world.
But I also think like... When you start to see like more just like queer people moving into like mainstream pop music especially. you start to see like the different dynamics that are not in heteronormative relationships, even when it comes to friendships.
Like, I think my friendships are so much deeper with my queer friends than I've ever had in in spaces in my life that were more like straights.
And the girl that that's so funny about is absolutely straight.
But there are things about that person that I was like, damn, like our friendship, what it was. went so much deeper than just some, like, oh, yeah, we're girls and we key and, like, it's fine.
Yeah. It was much deeper. And Aaliyah... kind of just like was the number one witness to it and warned me so far in advance, like, hey, by the way, like she's literally plotting on you.
So let's just have you explain sort of the conceit of the song for people who maybe haven't heard it yet.
Like what's what's going on in this song?
Well, it's got to be one of my favorite songs.
It's a great one. Thanks. I love it so much.
Basically, a situation had happened... I essentially just got so... deeply, deeply screwed by someone who I had really brought close to me in my life and looked up to.
And felt like was like a big sister to me.
And she kind of claimed to be that. took on that role and I really, really appreciated it because I just thought the world of her. and then slowly but surely started to see things in me that were qualities that made her insecure.
I think she got really, I assume she got to a really miserable place in her life and decided that I was the root of all of her problems.
And Aaliyah watched it happen and warned me, but I was like, it's all good, it's all good, it's all good, until it was just like so not all good.
And I was like, damn, this really actually did blow up.
When you lay it out like that, I'm like, whoa, this song has two extremely divergent pictures of what friendship or close relationship can be, right?
One that's deeply toxic and corrosive and secretive and one that's like Aliyah is like, essentially how I'm reading it is like, Warning you, but then also like, I'll be here for you even when this hits the fan.
And so you really do see these like very different models of what a friend can be.
And it was also something that I was so mad and sad about for such a long time and like really was like all encompassing.
And derailed my life for a minute because the situation became so dire.
I was like, I don't sleep well. A night without thinking about this.
It was crazy. That's really that's really tough.
I've had stuff like that before. It was insane.
It was so insane. And I want to be like, this relationship in this song with this person, that was a deep...
Friendship. Was it? Yeah. So it was like so really what you're talking to about is this remarkable pain of a friendship. changing in ways you at first quite don't understand.
And then, of course, this like deeply painful friend breakup, which is just, it can be equally, if not more in my experience, as tragic as a romantic breakup.
Yeah, I mean, everyone has had something like that happen to them on some level.
It doesn't have to be as extreme as what happened to me.
I certainly hope not. No, I hope not. You know, it's common.
It's common. You know, friendships don't last forever, and that's okay.
Some do, which is awesome. But a lot are like relationships and are temporary and important for the time that they're there.
You wise, wise woman. I've just been fucked over too many times.
That's all. I just have seen so many therapists.
You are talking about the intensity of queer friendships specifically, you're talking about relationships changing in ways that make the Make the connection difficult to navigate.
All of these are themes that are present in the essay you chose to read today.
To gay is right. By the way, I've never loved anything that's ever happened more.
Please don't edit that out. That was fucking stellar.
That was amazing. That was literally amazing.
Because I said to gay. Yeah, to gay. To gay.
Okay, okay, okay. This essay, the essay you're going to read today is by Sammy Sass.
It's called This Is What Happens When Friends Fall In Love.
Renee, you are making me need to hear you read this.
Why don't we, why don't you just go ahead?
To gay. To gay. Today, Renee reads an essay about two queer friends trying to define the terms of their relationship.
And it is messy work. Stay with us. Thank you.
Thank you. This is what happens when friends fall in love.
By Sammy Sass. Mira was dropping me off and neither one of us wanted to say goodbye.
In a July storm, we sat in our car listening to the rain.
I played with the red matte lipstick she keeps in her cup holder, opened the mirror to put it on, unscrew the top where I found a long black hair wound around the inside of the tube.
Holding it up between us, I said, dude, you may be a femme, but you are a sloppy one for sure.
She laughed hard, leaning forward and covering her mouth.
Then she calmed, suddenly serious, and said, what if it's you?
I wasn't sure what she meant. She said, what if we're here in five years and we're it for each other?
Like. What if in five years we look at each other and realize it's time to date?
I said, no. She said, like... what if in five years it's you and it's this friendship and maybe we date other people but at the end of the day it's you I smiled, imagining two of us older than our mid-twenties, still sitting below big trees in rainstorms, laughing and not wanting to get out of the car.
She gazed ahead. I am so terrified of hurting you.
I put down the lipstick and reached for her.
Mira, you are the safest person I have ever loved.
She put her face in her hands and cried, and all I could see was her thick black hair, her jean jacket with the fierce love pin.
That night was the first time Mira and I acknowledged just how much of our lives had molded around each other.
Neither of us knew how to describe what we were.
When someone asked if we were dating, I just said we're in love.
Mira smiled when she heard the story. She made her profile picture the two of us laughing on a bench.
And one day she said, it's the best when I show up to parties and people ask me where you are.
We spent evenings on my front porch reading articles aloud with titles such as Marriage is Murder, The Future of Queer, and Against the Couple Forum.
We dreamed about what our lives could look like if we gave ourselves permission to be free from conventions.
I was mortified at the thought of absorbing into a couple.
And I knew it would be difficult, but I wanted to build a life of commitment. where friendships mattered as much as romantic partnership.
She emailed me a tweet from someone that said, The best decisions I have ever made were made possible by my inability to invest in heterosexual narratives of love.
The fact of being queer weirdly saved me from so much loneliness, even as it demographically made intimacy so much harder to find.
I sent back a heart eye emoji and later, parked below my apartment windows on an early winter evening, Mira put her arm around my shoulders and said, Sammy, you are my epicenter.
And for a while, I was. Amira picked me up for work every morning.
I made her lunch on Sundays. And we made a beeline for each other in crowded rooms.
She became number one on my speed dial, and we talked every day.
When I thought I had bed bugs, she was the one I called in a panic.
She came over with an acupressure mat, a flashlight, and played wave sounds from her iPhone.
I'm anxious, I said, crying on the floor.
I know, she said as she stood above me. For the first time, I admitted just to myself in a whisper how good it felt to rely on someone.
Mira pried me open and slowly I trusted she would be there.
Every time, solid. I started picturing my life with her always in it.
Whatever shape our relationship took, because we had insisted on the permission to let ourselves change.
I expected the changes would be small and that she would be central.
But then Mira told me about a woman she was going to date.
This person wasn't like the cute queers Mira had dated during our friendship, all of whom were already dating someone else. or emotionally unavailable, or not nearly sounding enough for her.
This was someone Mira had an actual genuine crush on.
She told me, like a confession, that she wanted a romantic partnership and that she might even want it to be primary.
Central thing she builds her life around. and I wanted to shrivel that feeling inside until it atrophied and died.
But I couldn't, so I strained to fit her vision of what she wanted.
Well, maybe we should date, I said. I mean, couldn't we make that work?
Weren't we already in love and spending time together and talking every day?
She shook her head and said, Don't want to kiss you.
And I had to admit that sometimes I imagine her lying next to me and like a thought experiment, I pretend we're lovers.
I picture us laughing, and I brush her hair behind her ear.
I hold her hand and count the rings she wears.
I feel how small she is, only five feet and skinny and I say, tell me everything about your day.
She looks at me with bright eyes, but it stops there.
I never kiss her. Just imagining it gives me a tight-wound feeling and I know we're not the ones to do that with each other.
So I was silent for a long time and then said, the question for me, Mira, is in the event of an apocalypse, whose house are you running to?
The tender part of me that had come to rely on her was screaming.
I added in a terrified but certain voice, I am running to you.
And then the woman who had pried me open, who had told me in the same car and under the same windows that I was her epicenter, stared through the windshield and said coldly, I don't believe in hierarchies.
In the days afterward, I tried to talk myself out of feeling hurt.
I convinced myself I was holding on too tightly, asking too much, being unreasonable.
But the truth is, I wanted Mira to turn to me and hold back laughter while she said, of course I would run to you, as if it were the most obvious thing.
People tell me, oh, this is normal. And this is what happens when friends fall in love.
But I was completely unprepared. We were queer.
We were supposed to refuse the primacy of romance and sex.
At the least, we were supposed to run to each other in the apocalypse and invite whoever else needed to be there.
Including our lovers. And then all of us would wait together for the end times, dancing and buzzing each other's hair, eating ice cream and...
Birthing with gratitude for our beautiful, improbable friendships.
But Mira wasn't choosing me. Worse, I was going to have to watch her choose someone else.
And worse still, I couldn't rail against her decision because we had promised to let each other change.
I didn't have a book or a podcast or a movie that reflected my story back at me.
I felt totally alone, in a loss I had no words to describe.
A loss not just of a person, but of a relationship, and...
A life I so deeply wanted. I almost walked away as if this all had been an experiment and a terrible mistake, but I couldn't. underneath the hurt that she would choose someone else and the embarrassment of having come to rely on her, I didn't want to give up on radical friendship.
And I didn't want to give up on Mira. I would have to put her down by saying she gave in to the thing we reviled.
Or I put myself down by saying, my dreams are impossible.
I expect too much. And none of that felt right.
A few weeks after our apocalypse conversation, Mira and I went to a party together and she cupped her hand around my ear.
I put you as my emergency contact, she said.
Where it asked for a relationship, I wrote family.
In that moment, under dimmed lights, I got the same beaming feeling I get every time she chooses me and I saw that she doesn't want to lose me either.
But something had shifted and I didn't smile.
This time I was the one who sat rigid and stared ahead.
Because it wasn't enough. I was quiet, wondering how it all fit together.
And I realized, not with relief, but with clarity, neither of us know how to do this.
We'll be right back. Okay, Renee, what hit you about that essay you just read?
I think so much. So, so, so, so, so much.
Actually, okay, every single song on my album. has to do with like the deep, homoerotica of friendships, whether those turned romantic or were just romantic in without physical intimacy, because I'm very close with my friends.
I value my friendships in the same way I value my partner.
Like you are all so deeply important to me.
And if I lost one of you, it would be a fucking intense loss.
Intense loss. And obviously my girlfriend is like, that's my shorty forever.
But my friends are romantic in their own way as well.
I felt that this was just so... representative of how messy and difficult it is and how like becoming like aware of something, okay?
Realize, realize, realize. But becoming aware of a situation with your friend that's maybe not going to turn out the way you want it to.
Or being the friend on the other end and being like, this is not going to turn out the way you want it to, but love you. is equally really difficult for both people and happens so often.
And also, this is just like the story of like gay girls.
This is like, this is everything that L Word was like, here's what's going to happen.
And you're fucking right. It's like, it just is so... It's just so, like...
It's just like very real. And you said it before, like the messiness, the sort of blurring of boundaries that can occur.
Specifically in a queer relationship. It's like that feeling, at least the beginning of the essay, where you look at your friend and you're like, should we just...
You know what I mean? And it's kind of a joke, but it's kind of not.
Of course. Have you ever had that experience?
Four, three people in my friend group, in my immediate friend group.
You had that experience. Yeah. Yeah. It's like gay friendships. amongst, I think like any identity, but specifically just from my experience amongst like gay girls or like queer people are just so intense.
They're just so intense. Kind of like I was saying, I love my girlfriend more than anything.
She is the pinnacle of... She's just like the most perfect person.
I idolize her. I think that she's perfect.
And my friendships are relationships that I value just as much.
What's a moment recently that you felt that deep intimacy with a friend?
I mean, I felt like... God, we also hang out all the time.
So it's like literally all the time. Like every single time.
Yeah, like a specific moment. Yeah. I mean, okay.
So recently, like my best friend... And I were at a concert together and it was like us and our girlfriends and some of our other friends had come with us and whatever, whatever.
And I hadn't. I hadn't really like been seeing her your girlfriend as much no one of my best friends gotcha I hadn't been like seeing as much of her as I typically would like we my like friend group is about 15 to 17 deep.
Again, we're together every weekend, probably Friday, Saturday, Sunday. like all sleeping at like our house, like, and then starting again the next day.
It's the most fun you cannot even imagine.
It's an ideal world. We like really like we're like Nothing fucking matters.
It's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah, yeah. You hadn't seen her for a bit.
Like we had been together, but we just been like going out and she'd been traveling and whatever.
And this is this is arguably my best friend in our friend group.
And her and I have, we're so tethered together.
And when I like wasn't seeing her, I was missing her and she was missing me.
And we were like, consciously but subconsciously just kind of like being like Miss you.
Like, whatever. And not really being like, I'm going to look you in the eye and be like, I love you so much.
I need I need more from you and I need more attention.
Yeah, what do you think was behind that not really articulating like the depth of A feeling or... I think both of us just love each other so much that we didn't want to... put off the other one by feeling too like I need something from you.
And so we internalized it as we were mad at each other.
And so I had spoken about it with one of my greatest friends who's not in our immediate friend group, but like knows all of us and is like pretty much embedded and she's about 10 years older than me and I just like trust her with my life she's like my like oh she's like my North Star lesbian like she's perfect And I was like, I don't know what to do.
I feel crazy. I feel like I've done something wrong.
And she was like, you haven't done anything wrong.
You and her have such a tight relationship.
You just can like call her, by the way, and be like, I love you.
I miss you. I really want attention from you.
Did I do something wrong? I know that I didn't.
But can you affirm me? But can I just say, of course you can do that.
What a vulnerable thing to do, even with a close friend. and perhaps even especially with a really close friend it's like oh yeah you have this history to I don't know.
They're so important to you, you don't want to disrupt that balance, right?
No, not at all. And so it's nerve-wracking.
And so I spoke to her, and then, sure enough, we, like, went to the concert and, like... Wait, so what'd she say when you said, like, I...
I'm feeling like I need you. Like, what did she say back to that?
She was like, oh, of course I can give you attention.
I love you. And I was like, oh, perfect.
And then we talked about it at the concert and kind of We were drunk, so I don't remember all that much.
But we were just kind of going back and forth being like, I love you so much.
And I've missed you. I thought you were mad at me.
And she was like, I thought you were mad at me. we were supposed to get dinner and we didn't.
And I was like, Honey, I'm so flaky. That has nothing to do with you.
I'm trying to remember to eat dinner. Like, I love you.
All I want to do is spend time with you.
Like, you're the greatest... addition to my life that's been in the last couple years.
Like I would never, if anything you ever did upset me, I love you. more than anything that I would come up to you and be like, I'm upset.
But in reality, you didn't do anything. Those moments of I'm like breathing easier because I've had my own moments of like. conflict in a friendship that are like that, where both of you have the best intentions, but you're missing each other on some fundamental level.
And then just when you say it out loud, It's such a deep exhale.
And then also I've had that very fun, kind of drug-like feeling where you're like, I love you.
I love you so much. Just like holding your friend's face and saying, and it is so... Of course.
Connective and necessary and important. Oh, it's the best thing ever.
Just this past Saturday, we're all like really tipsy in the backyard.
And my friend Cassidy... looks over at all of us, and this happens so often, starts crying and is like, I love you guys, I've never had a friend group like this in my life that's so gay and we're all so weird and we do the most obscene shit around each other. but we're all so cute and so sexy and we're like crying.
And she literally said, I wrote it down on my phone because I was like, this is, belligerent.
I love it so much. She was like, you know, you can just like be who you are and like whoever that is, like that's who you are.
And we all we were crying laughing because she was being so genuine.
But what the fuck was she saying? It was so.
That's a circular thing. You can be who you are and whoever you are is who you are.
Underneath. What is she saying? What I think she's articulating is actually something I sense, at least in the beginning part of this essay, which is like she feels...
Yes, exactly. She feels incredibly safe.
The core of... Your friend group, it sounds like, is this real safety.
You can't even imagine. The end of this essay. at the end of this essay, the author says, what does she say?
She says, we don't, neither of us know how to do this, right?
Neither of us know How to do this, and my read of that is that she feels like Mira and her don't know what the future will hold for their relationship.
They don't know how to navigate the sort of the unknown of what's to come.
And I guess you've discovered all these things about ways to make friendship work and be supportive in your life. life.
And also, there's many years of friendship ahead of you to go, right?
Do you feel like you know, do you feel like you have a blueprint? for friendship.
Do you know how to do this? I don't think I have a blueprint, but I do know exactly What I want and what I need.
And if I don't know, then I know how to ask for it and ask for like some like forgiveness if I'm wrong or if I change.
Do you worry about your friendships changing as you get older?
No. Not really. Because friendships just inherently do change.
They just do. Like they they they just change like even like with like Aaliyah lives in New York now and I live in L.A.
So inherently our friendship. will change.
We see each other less. It just, I don't know, it like always changes.
I am realizing, I mean, you said this group of friends is 15 to 17, which is a – we started off talking about girl groups, usually like three, four, maybe five.
Y'all have a big girl in the broadest sense.
Of course. We talk every single day. Okay.
This is what I'm going to ask. You have a group chat, I'm sure.
Multiple. I imagine your phone's on like do not disturb or whatever.
When you turn it back on, will you have a million group text chats from— You can't even imagine.
We always make this joke that when we're active in the group chat, it is the greatest thing ever.
And when one of us are like working and like not doing it, it is so fucking annoying because the group chats got like 2000 unreads.
It's novel. It's novel. yeah it literally is a novel maybe you come back and you read us a version of that group chat Renee Rapp what fun thank you for coming into the studio today thanks man The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa. davis land elisa gutierrez emily lang jen poyant lynn levy riva goldberg and sarah curtis this episode was produced by Emily Lang it was edited by Davis Land and Lynn Levy This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Macielo and Nick Pittman.
Our video team is Brooke Minters, Sophie Erickson, and Alfredo Chiarappa.
The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell.
Original music in this episode by Carol Savareau.
Dan Powell, and Rowan Nemisto. Special thanks to Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda, and Kathleen O'Brien.
The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.
