And they don't offer anything.

So we want to think about how can I show up more authentically so I can have more real connections.

So if you ever felt like you've lost a part of yourself along the way, like the person that you truly are deep down has gotten buried under layers of masks and personas and false cells adopted just to fit in to get approval or stay safe.

If so, you're not alone.

So many of us reach points in our lives where we look around and realize that we've strayed so far from our authentic cells.

And the painful truth is that persisting in those in authentic ways it just wreaks having.

On a piece of mind or relationships, our health, our very soul.

But what if you could reclaim that loss sense of self?

Rediscover who you really are and start living from that place of truth.

My guess today is Dr. Tamar Bryan, a clinical psychologist, the 2023 president of the American Psychological Association, professor at Pepperdine University, an author of the book Reclaim Yourself, the Homecoming Workbook.

An expert on the journey of self- rediscovering after trauma or identity loss.

Dr. Bryant shares just deeply insightful and practical wisdom for dismantling our emotional masks and coming home to our most authentic cells.

So whether you're emerging from a pevel feeling a drift midlife or just know that there's a truer you waiting to be lived, this conversation will provide a powerful roadmap.

So excited to share it with you.

I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

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A lot of the work that you've done has been around reclamation.

Reclamation often after some sort of trauma, both personal, collective societal.

We'll talk about the fact that those all kind of play together.

Your recent focus is around this notion that at some point in our lives, and it doesn't necessarily even have to do with having endured something powerful or traumatic, that life tends to have this effect where we lose a sense of who we are.

We lose ourselves. That can just cause this enduring pain that shows up in so many different ways and so many parts of our lives.

So I'm curious, when you use the phrase losing yourself, take me into what we're actually talking about here.

Yeah. To lose yourself is to be ungrounded, disconnected, to begin living primarily as the false self or the performance self or the people pleasing self.

It is to take on an identity a way of being that is not rooted in the truth of you.

And so it may be to stay safe.

It may be to gain approval.

It may be strategic and certain workplaces or even in some relationships.

It can happen in a subtle, slow way where you're not quite sure.

When did I shift in this way?

When did I lose sight of the truth of myself?

And then sometimes it can be dramatic and abrupt.

If we think about a trauma or let's say I've suddenly moved, I'm in a new environment and I feel like the truth of me is unacceptable here.

And so then I begin to craft this other way of being.

Do you feel like for most people that this is more of a conscious experience or something that kind of just happens over time without you really even considering or meeting it?

It can really go both ways.

Sometimes we are aware of, you know, you study the environment and I say even for children, they'll notice certain children get praised and certain children are neglected and ignored.

So they can think like if I was cuter like that, if I dress like that, if I got the grades they got or if I helped out more, then I would be the one that people would celebrate and praise.

And so in that way it can be intentional.

And then also there are ways where we're not even conscious of the changes we're making.

And you know, the phrase I'd like to use in my book Homecoming is can you say out loud, I miss me.

And coming home to the truth of there are parts of me that I let go that I lost sight of.

And sometimes it's the busyness of life, right?

That's you know, we're in a living in a time where people want you to make every hobby a stream of income, right?

It's like if you're doing something and not getting paid for why.

And it's like because I love it, right?

Because it makes me come alive.

And so we can get caught up in the machinery of productivity or consumerism or chasing value and lose sight of the things that actually made us us.

Now that definitely lands.

I heard you speaking and you said something that really literally caught me in the throat.

You said when you show up masked, you're going to be expected to stay in that mask.

Yeah. Take me to the burn to this.

I'll use this one for dating.

It could be for anything.

It could be for a job interview.

But when you show up in a performance way, it's just not sustainable.

You could let's say for example, you're pretending to be interested in what other people are interested in.

And so you read about it or you Google it.

And now they think they have someone who's aligned who love you.

Say, hey, Kate, right? Who loves hiking?

And if that's not really you, how long can you keep that up for?

You know, it in the resentment is going to end up showing up of like, I hyped for you.

And they're like, I didn't make you do it.

I thought you wanted to do it.

So it's a setup or not only around our hobbies or interests, but also the things that make us mad.

Things that are upsetting or offensive to us.

And initially like wanting to be the peace keeper.

So you don't say anything.

And I see this often with clients where they're telling me this like 20 minute story, right?

A session is an hour. They spent 20 minutes telling me this thing.

So that really upset you.

And they say, I'm not mad.

Right? So it can be a denial of even what you feel.

And we do that with our loved ones.

Some of us do pretend things don't bother us that do.

And again, that's unsustainable because the resentment, the anger, the offense, it's going to grow over time.

So I like to say instead of sending your representative, let people meet you.

And then you can decide.

Right? Because if we're not aligned, this isn't some rejection at a soul level.

It means we're not aligned.

And they'll be better aligned with someone else.

And so will you. You know, same thing with a job.

Some positions are not for us, but we can crutch ourselves, fold ourselves into this role.

But it has an effect on our health, on our motivation, on our depression, on our anxiety, on our performance.

Yeah. To unmask is a gift.

And we all, most of us love when we're in the presence of someone who is free like that.

You know, it's just it's it's delightful.

Also, you know where you stand, even if you don't agree on everything, you don't have to guess, right?

So the people who show up in truth, it can be contagious and encourage more people to unmask.

So instead of the how are you?

I'm fine. How are you? I'm fine.

When someone breaks out of that and you say, how are you?

And I say, I'm exhausted.

And it's suddenly we're like, oh, me too.

Yeah. No, that makes so much sense.

It's interesting, right?

Because I think we all want to be accepted.

We all want to belong. We all want to like be loved and embraced.

Yeah. And yet so often we show up with some version of a mask on, you know, in all the different domains of life.

And we think of that person accepts that as using our language, our representative, like we'll get what we need.

Oh, okay. Like I'm being accepted.

That's cool. Like they like me.

But what you're saying is that you don't like you.

They like the mask. So you never actually get what you want.

Yeah. And so it's not healing because on a core level, you know, they don't actually know me.

And if they knew the truth of me, maybe they wouldn't love me or like me or choose me.

And so that's part of what's healing in therapy.

It's like that I can get to the point where I speak the truth of me and like the world didn't fall apart.

And this person still regards me well, even if let's say the behavior wasn't praiseworthy.

But the behavior is not the same thing as the root of you, the core of you.

And so we are we're longing for that to be known, right?

To be known, to be loved with the fullness of our humanity.

I wonder if you see it also in practice.

Some of us, you know, you wear the mask so long, or maybe it's personal, maybe it's a job, right?

And then somebody says yes to the mask.

So you get the job. And then you're on the job.

And then they keep saying yes to that mask.

So you keep like layering more and more into it, make it more nuanced.

And then you get five years into the job.

And people love the representative.

Yeah. You're getting praised for it.

And you're getting all these things that say like keeping this person yet inside, you're just getting hollower and hollower and hollower.

I mean, it seems like there's a certain weight or burden like psychic cost to living in this space.

It's talking about that.

It's a lot of labor. It's exhausting because it doesn't come naturally to you.

You're having to perform.

And the emotional labor is draining.

And what this also brings up is when you begin healing and growing, some people won't celebrate it.

Some people like the mask better than you.

You know, the representative may be the person who like volunteers for everything is always willing to stay late and come in early.

And then suddenly you're like, why should I have to do that?

Right? I'm getting paid the same amount as these other people.

And I'm the only one here till nine o'clock at night.

And I don't want to do it anymore.

Now, your good, good friends will be like good for you.

But there aren't going to be people who are like, you changed, right?

And like I did, I did change.

And so I think it's important to help people be prepared for the fact that some people like your mask better.

And it is still important to choose you that either they will adjust and come to know the truth of you and appreciate that.

Or there may be some separations that happen as a result of you living more authentically.

Yeah. When people come to you, because I know you have a lot of clinical practice also.

And you see this going on for an extended period of time.

How does that actually show up on a day-to-day basis in somebody like that?

The carrying of that weight.

Like how does it actually manifest in a person's mind and body?

It often is the person who is everything to everyone.

Right? And so it, you know, you may show up as strong.

You may show up as even charismatic.

Because for some of the people, not everyone, but some people are trauma survivors who grew up and their safety depended on whether emotional or physical safety, depending on them, detecting what people needed or wanted and give it to them before they get mad.

Right? You know, I have clients who could say they could judge by the sound of the parent's footsteps if the parent wasn't a bad mood or not.

Right? And you better figure that out before they get to your door.

Right? And so someone like that, you know, a lot of people would like them as a friend because they anticipate your needs.

When you ask them, well, do they need, I don't need anything.

Right? And on a core level, they believe that, right?

That, like, you know, that easy to please.

Like, I'm good. I'm easy, but have never really taken time to know, like, what do you actually like?

Like if it really is your choices, it's not just what everybody else wants.

What do you enjoy? What would be nourishing for you?

And so that's how it can show up.

They can show up as emotional unavailability because there's a, there's a wall there.

Right? Blake, you know, so sometimes it's not even I'm consciously not telling people what I think or feel.

Sometimes they really don't know.

So what we often hear that from teenagers, the answer is like, I don't know.

I don't know. But there are adults who are still like that.

I was like, well, what do you like?

I don't know. And so perhaps you never got to explore it.

It never felt safe enough.

The good news with this whole reclamation is it's not too late.

People in all different stages of development at all different ages who are like, I'm ready to be me.

I'm ready to be free. And so whether I'm 20 or 40 or 60, it's my season.

And so, you know, we can claim that.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right?

Because you also describe this reclamation of you and like the true you as something that you know.

And it's you kind of get ready to go back to it to reclaim it.

Do you think they actually know who that person is?

Like what the capital else self is?

Or do you think that so many of us actually have been so disconnected for so long that we don't even know who it is anymore if we ever did?

Yeah. And there's both.

There are people who are like, I used to be this.

I used to love this. I was talking to someone recently who was experienced a major grief and said, you know, when they had that loss is when they stopped dancing.

And before that, like they love dance.

So in that way, there's an awareness of like, I want to get back to her.

I want to get back to that.

And then, you know, as you're naming there are other people who are like, all I know is this isn't it.

And that's enough information to start.

Because, you know, we can work in reverse, you know, what don't you like?

What doesn't align with you?

And so we can start to like move those things away to the truth.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

You're starting with like the negative side of it and saying, okay, now that we know what's what's over there.

Right. Right. And this is a lot of what you write about, you know, the tools for the journey home, which I think is what we're describing here.

Like what are the tools?

What are the mechanisms and the strategies?

And one of them that you explores this notion of what you describe is reparenting yourself.

Yes. So take me into this.

Many people get stuck, even our in therapy and stuck, reliving and relitigating the past.

Right. So we were pretty much all raised by humans and humans are fail, fallible and some more harmful than others, but all are imperfect.

And so I say that as a parent days well, right.

We don't get it all right.

And so we can literally spin our wheels and spend years in grief and anger for what we didn't get.

And it's justified as understandable.

That's hurtful. You know, definitely don't come from a perspective of like, oh, just shake it off.

Like there has to be a reckoning within the self, even an acknowledgement within the self.

And it might not be that the parent acknowledges it.

It's beautiful if they get to some point where they apologize for some things or acknowledge some.

So while the grief or anger, you know, all of that can be a part of the process, but the problem is some of us get stuck, right.

And so now instead of living, we are in a permanent state of life, I can never have a good life because I got jipped as a child.

It's like I'm broken and this is just the way it's going to be.

Right. I'm irreparable.

Right. And these are the people who have a good life is because they had a good mom.

Well, right. Here, there can be truth in the sense of yes, people are flourishing more who have been supported, right.

That is that is a truth support helps.

And it also is true. There are people who didn't get it and have gotten the support in other ways, have healed in particular ways and are, you know, creating a life that has joy and fulfillment.

And so, you know, with the repenting, I talk about beginning to do for yourself the things you wish this ideal parent did because what that is, it's it's giving my nervous system and my whole being the message of my worthiness.

Instead of just waiting for someone else to do it or for that parent to do it, I like to say it's dangerous to put your healing on hold or put it in the hands of those who dropped you.

They didn't treat me well.

And I can't be well until they say I'm good enough.

That could be a lifetime.

So instead, I say their treatment of me was not indicative of my worth.

Their treatment of me was because of the state they were in.

All right. And so then I just start thinking about what are things I feel like, you know, good parents do and how can I do that for myself.

So, you know, we could argue that especially with younger kids that good parents establish a bedtime.

Like, you know, some kind of routine in the house like meals are at first, or that there will be meals and that they are at a particular time and that is not just junk food, right?

So then I start to say to myself, go to bed.

Go to bed. It's like, I don't need one more episode of this Netflix marathon.

Covisually. And, you know, I just say like, what's on my plate?

If I am literally living with drive-thrues and vending machines, like, let me mother myself better than that.

Right? Let me eat some greens.

Let me drink some water instead of just another cold.

Right? So we begin to give ourselves that good, responsible, engaged parents also serve as a screening.

Like, we can't block everything because some people are tricky and, you know, you just didn't know they were going to hurt your kid.

But there are some people who just show up with all kinds of flags and you would not let them be with your child.

And so then if I'm going to be that way for myself, when people show up with all these flags and they're not honoring me or respecting me, then I get to draw that line and say, no, this person can't come in my house.

Or, no, I don't have to respond to their texts.

So to begin to give ourselves that good love and good parenting is healing.

Hmm. Now, that makes so much sense.

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I'm curious also what happens when somebody says yes this makes total sense.

I'm going to make my list and I'm going to start to do this to me and at the same time let's say that parent or parent figure regarding whoever it may have been is still in their life and they are still showing up with the same dysfunction and effectively sort of like continuing the unhappiness.

You know, that was born from like a very young age and so here you are saying I'm going to do all the reparenting stuff.

I'm really actively engaged in this and yet this other person who is the source keep it's there still in your life.

I mean it seemed like that would be pretty complicated but it's also probably a realistic scenario for some.

They're realistic and you use the exact word which is continuing.

So we think about post-traumatic stress disorder.

It was developed thinking about veterans so they would go to battle and then when they come home then you can provide the care and some people are in continuous traumatic stress.

So the example I like to give is if you're in an abusive relationship the therapy with you who is still in it is very different from the therapy I give to someone who's escaped it.

If you're still in it it's more like a maintenance than like real healing and restoration because it's continuing to happen and so then a part of and this can be hard for people whether by culture, religious teaching or just personality needing to establish boundaries with the people who show no remorse and continue to do and say harmful things.

Now some people get to the point of saying like I'm just totally cutting them out of my life if that's where people are then that works for them and there are other people who are like I would never right I would never cut off my parents it's like against my values or you know I would never leave this marriage or what have you.

So then if people are going to still interact with the person then for them to think about what could some self protective boundaries look like.

Meaning let's say I don't want to cut off my parents but do I have to spend every weekend at their house all day Saturday and all day Sunday right maybe I still see them but the frequency is less or maybe I set up a boundary by saying if you're going to be drinking and start talking in this way I'm going to leave.

So now I am parenting myself and limiting access to that kind of toxic behavior which undermines my healing.

It's complicated I would imagine for some people as well.

Yeah. Use the phrase self protection.

I'm also wondering about the role of self compassion in this experience.

One of the things I've discovered especially with trauma survivors of people who grew up in a high stress environment is we have a high tolerance for pain because you've experienced so much you can end up dismissing things that don't seem like a big deal given what you've lived through right.

So then we can tolerate a lot of things that really should be intolerable you know.

And so what I like to offer to people is instead of saying I'll do it until I can't do it anymore or I can't take it anymore because you may be in the kind of place where you could take it for another decade but instead it's not that I cannot do it I choose not to right.

So then we have the agency and empowerment and self compassion to choose more than endurance.

Sometimes we just persevere it's means the friend who never gives up on you even though like you stole from them.

The partner who never leaves you even though like every month you're cheating with a new person.

I'm not going to give up on people because I can take it it doesn't bother me you know.

And then to say like am I flourishing in this am I thriving in this am I respecting myself or am I dishonoring myself by continuing to participate in dysfunction.

Yeah I mean it's the concepts all sound very straightforward but I also imagine in practice it's anything but like this is so nuanced and there's probably it's not like a straight line.

Oh yes I said yes I start doing this and then I'm just going to keep doing it more and more and more.

It's like a very jagged line because this is a reality.

And that's why we have to get like creative even with our strategies.

Let's say someone goes home for the holidays and every holiday they come back destroyed you know because everybody is talking mean to them and either about their weight or the fact that they're still single or whatever it is they want to say.

And so for some people like confronting them or not going is not an option so I may offer something like what would it be like to sit at the quote unquote kids table.

I've been put the kids over in the corner and you just be the favorite auntie that's like sitting over there chatted up with the kids and so then you're not directly in this conversation or about how them like be the person who keeps volunteering to go on errands.

It's like oh we're out of hot sauce.

I'll go because as you're naming for some people it just direct intervention just feels impossible or culturally unacceptable or would have you.

So finding the ways to nourish ourselves that that feel in the realm of possibility.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense man.

You're describing a had a funny reaction.

I'm introverted person and if I would find myself at a party or something like this at somebody's house or something like that.

I noticed over time that I would step into the regular role of kitchen helper because it like it gave me a job to do where I could then kind of choose how much I wanted to be social how much I want to interact and it made me comfortable.

That's good. And sort of like you're describing like a different version of like figure out your strategies that are quote you know socially acceptable for the setting but that let you be okay.

You know like do give you what you need.

That's such a good one. It's like because it's like I'm present.

Yeah. And I'm doing activities.

I don't have to constantly talk.

You know. And that kind of brings us to another thing that you dive into which is this notion of you know in this process of reclaiming yourself that really reconnecting with the sense of emotional intelligence is important.

And I think a lot of us like to think that we're emotionally intelligent.

But then when we really do a gut check on that we realize there's probably a whole lot of stuff that we're missing.

Yeah. It's important for us to even reflect on and our growing up which emotions were even acceptable.

Right. Because we have like judgments involved.

Was this why we deny feelings certain things because we've been told like that's bad.

Even some people's spiritual traditions can lead to like spiritual bypassing where you know I don't get permission to be human to have feelings.

I wrote recently on my Instagram page.

It's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things.

And this woman responded.

But is it really because outrageous means terribly bad.

And is anything really terribly bad.

And I'm reading this message like are you looking around the world and asking me is anything happening that is terribly bad.

Right. But it was it was unacceptable to her to think that being outraged could ever be something healthy.

Right. Because the message is you should be detached and peaceful and not moved by anything.

But there's some things that are happening around the world that if you're not moved by you're not grounded in truth.

Right. So asking ourselves what are the emotions I lean into.

What are the ones I easily share.

And we can have different ones even some good emotions.

You know I work with our graduate students at Pepperdine University.

And you know different points they have to interview for internship.

It's so they practice you know these interviews and having a client you know sometimes the question is something like we're trying to choose between you and these other people like what makes you stand out or why we should choose you.

And the student was really stumped because she had been raised not to brag.

And for her so to her it felt like you're the question is of requiring that you brag or make yourself better than other people.

And so she was given these answers like I try my best.

Oh that's not going to cut it in the end.

You're not going to get chosen.

So you know that conditioning that we have the meaning that we give to certain feelings.

I even have had clients around trauma who are like afraid to be happy because if the feeling is if I feel good about something it's going to be taken away.

Right. So they're always anticipating this is going to go badly somehow.

You know we may feel like I'm aware of my emotions sometimes we are or not.

But then also am I able to convey them.

And who are the people I come dating with because I get it that there are some people who are just associates so like you're not going to tell them everything about what you're feeling and you might say I'm finding you because I don't really know you that way.

But is that the way we communicate with everyone that we're always masked and guarded and closed off.

Yeah I mean it's interesting also because it brings up the idea that sometimes some level of mask is actually okay.

Like for a particular domain for a particular reason it serves a particular purpose.

But if we live that way in all domains of life all the time then we never get what we need to be whole.

Right. That person who we are never gets to show up in life and that causes suffering.

Yes that's the key is like one am I aware of the truth.

So I may be presenting in a particular way because that's what this environment demands.

I think about that film where they're like there's no crying in baseball.

Are you crying? So there may be a particular spaces where we feel like I got to like do this role.

But where are your soft places to land or have we constructed a life where there are no places to land.

And when people describe that kind of situation to me that like everybody's always using me or everybody depends on me but they I can't depend on anyone.

When that's now a pattern then we have to say how am I participating in co-creating these kinds of relationships.

So you run into like one user or two users okay some people are users but like everybody everybody in your whole circle.

Now how we might co-create that is some people when they're going through a hard time disappear.

So then your friends never get to see you in your struggle.

So they assume you don't need anything right and they don't offer anything.

So we want to think about how can I show up more authentically so I can have more real connections.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

So you brought up the topic of of spirituality and sometimes spiritual bypassing and this is one of the things that you speak to and write about also is the notion of spiritual practice and it's interesting because example you use with somebody who's sort of leaning on this person's understanding of his spiritual like foundation to say nothing's either good or bad it just is you know and who am I to judge you know and it's interesting because a lot of that thought process comes out of Eastern tradition you're like Buddhism but then you you look at examples like Tick-Not-Hon who basically saw so much atrocities and said no we actually needed different we need to step into this philosophy differently and like and led with when I think it's often been described as engaged Buddhism like we're going to recognize the things that are truly like horrifying in this world and do something about it and at the same time we can stand in this place of integrity with our broader system of beliefs that is such an interesting and often difficult dance I think for a lot of people from different traditions.

Yes it's a great example we yes of mindfulness of course is very huge in general but also integrating it in psychotherapy and I was on a panel at this multicultural summit looking at mindfulness with marginalized communities and some of the critique was around like one of the principles is acceptance and so the way people were like interpreting that was we have these psychologists going into the inner city and basically sedating these kids like there are outrageous things happening in our community and they're going there training them to be like checked out and disengage and so you know then one of the panelists was saying it's not so much acceptance meany I like the way or I approve of the way things are but instead if we change acceptance to awareness right I am aware that this is the truth of where we are and then I can decide how I'm going to engage or what I'm going to do about it but I first must accept or be aware that this this is the reality so it is interesting like that nuance and yeah as you're naming with other faith traditions as well that I call them silent sanctuaries there are some churches that will never talk about anything happening in the world because they say we don't want to be political right whereas others will say well my faith drives my activism because I need to work toward justice so it is trying to think about like what is the ultimate goal and is it only individual or is there also like either a collective care a collective compassion collective responsibility yeah so if we think about spiritual practice in some way being a part of this process of reclaiming that your sense of lost self what's your real here is just some guidelines in terms of like when I think about how to bring spiritual practice back into this process how do I do it in a way that is healthy and helpful yes great so one of the practices I encourage as a creation of morning ritual of you know like what's gonna feed your soul because sometimes we're focused on like what's gonna make me money or socially what's gonna get me connections or dating apps or you know all of these things but it's like at the core of who I am when I think about what is sacred to me what brings to my awareness the sacred what allows me if you'll connect it to that and that will look different for different people but the first thing I say is don't set your alarm for the time you have to jump out of bed because then you wake up already anxious because like oh no we're already running off to the races so I want to set my alarm before I actually have to be up so that I can ease into my day and then explore the practices that fill my cup so that I don't show up to work empty and frantic and desperate for validation like that because I have filled my spiritual cup then I can get for my overflow right not from a place of resentment or emptiness and so like what are the things that could be like soul food or soulful for some people that's like meditation or prayer for some people it's listening to music I like to encourage people to get like have a theme song for this season of your life and when you put that song on it just like get you in the right mindset for the day for some people that's stretching and exercise but for it to not just be a body thing but I think about like sacred dance like so what is the movement that is not just like because I want the abs but that nourishes me on a deeper level another big one people doing the morning is writing journaling and any artistic expression you know most people who have like an artistic master peaceful describe like they they didn't write it they received it or like this great artwork and it's like this spiritual inspiration you know that they receive or create in that like divine place so starting with listening to this podcast right so having your soul fed and you know the evidence of that I give is I was working at this really toxic job one day I was walking in and the assistant director stopped me on the steps and she goes you always seem so happy and I get the feeling it has nothing to do with this place and I said you're right you're right you're absolutely right so you're right so do I do something I called devotions but I got to feed and ground myself before I get here so that I'm not dependent on a unhealthy place for my joy hmm that makes so much sense and we'll be right back after word from our sponsors hey it's Nikali from side hustle pro from a local business to a global corporation partnering with Bank of America gives your operation access to exclusive digital tools award winning insights and business solutions so powerful you'll make every move matter visit bankofmerika.com slash bank you for business to learn more what would you like the power to do bank of america and eight copyright 2024 want to teach your kids financial literacy but not sure where to start green light can help with green light parents can keep an eye on kids spending and saving while kids and teens 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for 50 to 80% less in similar brands they have buttery soft cashmere sweat are starting at $50 luxurious Italian leather bags and so much more plus quince only works with factories that you save ethical and responsible manufacturing get the high end goods you'll love without the high price tag with quince go to quince dot com slash style for free shipping and 365 day returns I know both of us speak and I'm sure you get this also sometimes like when you're talking to the organization before and you get the question what's your walk on song you know and they've been wanting to know and that's the song that you know like plays you onto the stage when you're walking on it's in the background I'm like this wouldn't that be cool thing to just like what's your walk on song for like your day I love that as you walk into the day are like what you're walking into song like it's kind of what you're describing it totally is I love that walk on song yes it's interesting also because you're describing spiritual practice in a very practical way that maybe some of the things that any individuals can just like throw into that thing will be their own devotional thing that makes it feel but often I think people back away from this thing called spirituality or spiritual practice because I think oh I'm not that kind of person that's a little out there it's a little winter but the way you're describing it's actually a very practical thing like anyone can step into this and like you put into that bucket of practices whatever it is that allows you to feel whole and okay and sort of like move into the rest of your day so it makes it very accessible in a lot of cool ways now you also describe this you were just referencing this is one of the things you write about as well the notion of self-care versus community care it's kind of hard to do one without the other yeah and people have created this false dichotomy false choice between the two so one a lot of people have even in our field mental health professionals have focused on self-care and not on relationships and some people have even falsely argued like it's kind of like that you have to be at your perfected self before you can have relationships with people but a part of our healing happens in community happens you know I've had many people who if I'm working with them and they're single they like I'm all better and then let them start dating again and all kinds of stuff come up because you know it's when you're living it out it's very different than just like sitting by yourself so the self-care things are important but also we do need community care and there are different types of social support there's emotional social support so those are people who you can cry with you can share your good news with you can share your outrage with they can comfort you and validate you and then there's like instrumental support so those are people who can help with practical things if like you're a little short on money for rent or they'll loan you the car or they're willing to like watch your child while you go for the job interview there's informational support when you always had like that one friend in the circle who knows like what's happening in the city or where to go for this so like that's not legal and not everybody can fulfill all those roles like some people are not the touchy feeling but they can tell you how to like do this transaction and so receiving that is healing because it also lets us know you know that we're worthy of care not only from ourselves but like in other people's eyes that they see our worthiness and then another part of community care is community as in the collective like working for policies and legislations that are life affirming that are fair so what some people would say is you know it's not fair to tell a single mother of three like she should just go get a pedicure for herself care once she doesn't have a livable wage and like there's not quality childcare and you know she's in a bind so you know thinking about it from that collective space too and the reason I just said it's not a false choice is some people who are on the community care track are like I don't want to hear about self care I know it's all community and I'm like you know some people one don't currently have community so that message within say they can have nothing right or that the community has to be everything so there are some things even with clients who are low income there are things we can still do to nourish ourselves and take care of ourselves that don't you know self care that and just need to be a cruise right it can be very simple yeah I wonder if you know part of what's going on underneath a lot of this also is this sort of like cultural shift I feel like it's happened over the last few generations that says that if we can't do this thing alone then there's something wrong with us like we quote should be able to like be self-reliant and you know when you look historically that's a joke like it was never like that you know but somehow it's like become part of like the modern culture like that this is the ethos and we wouldn't have survived this human beings if that was the dominant culture yes it promotes a hyperindependence and it chastises condemns judges people who even express that they're lonely right and you know the surgeon general has talked about like the high rates of loneliness now but some people's response to hearing that someone is lonely is like you just need to love yourself and I'm like that's not the same thing you can love yourself sincerely and deeply and still desire connection in your life and and feel lonely that you don't have it so I agree there is kind of that movement of like you shouldn't need anyone if you really were healthy yeah it's interesting during like the last four or five years like throughout the pandemic I feel like you saw so many shifts in that and people were first forced to be completely isolated and then so many people were suffering and then people started using technology to try and like find their way back to community in the virtual space even that they couldn't be there in person and then like as sort of like the restrictions lift and as people start to actually move back into I think we're all kind of fumbling and stumbling trying to find out like what is the new normal when it comes to interacting with people both individually and at scale like what's the new okay and but also feel like the window for sort of like defining what our new normal is around that is closing without us having fully reconciled how we feel about it and what we want to do about it what's your take I'm curious wow face and more about that closing in what way I feel like oftentimes you know because this was a traumatic experience for so many people and trauma often opens us to reconsider a lot of things but as sort of like culture around us starts to you know like go back to everyday life I think our own and the social tolerance for reconsidering that window closes with that so it's like it's not just this indefinite thing like let me keep doing this on my own time frame there's a lot of personal and social expectation that like we need to get back to hat like we need to figure this thing out and just drop into whatever the structure is we want moving forward but a lot of us we haven't figured out this thing yet and but we feel like we're we're supposed to just get back to like life as as it was such a good point that where it's this opportunity for a reckoning a reclamation a transformation instead of just like the return to where we were or how we were before and I see that as an important opportunity that both faith communities and schools any community gathering I think has missed when they're just like okay now we're back and it's like do we need to do it this way in a big pushback we often here are folks from the disability community for so long you all told us these things were impossible that we had asked for and when everybody else needed it we made it available right in terms of like in this virtual space and I would like okay that's over and we just see changes around like workplaces more places allowing people to work remotely if not full time at least like two or three days a week so an opportunity to reimagine not only what's possible what is optimal and not of course just in the workspace before ourselves talking about the workspace and also this shift that happened between remote and in person I wonder what you take is on this is spinning in my head is you're describing this you know so many people actually had to work from home and then we got comfortable working from home and then we might even start to build a little bit community away from the community that often define community which for so many people was work and I feel like not wearing the mask as much in that home life or that like immediate social community as we were at work and now we're being very often like that pendulum the swinging back a lot of companies now are saying you know like back to the office and I wonder if part of the resistance to that because there is a lot of resistance isn't just the convenience of oh I'm home I have more hours in my day and stuff like this but it's this internal knowing that says that's the place where I wore the mask and now I can actually do the job without wearing it because just structurally things have changed and if I go back like am I gonna have to put it back on I wonder what how that lands with you yeah I think that's very true it's you know now you like the balance and the labor but not only the work labor but the emotional labor of being in the environment of having to be on right and as you said I can do the work and not be on and you know we're just discovering more of the like pros and cons because in some places who that have allowed for the remote they're able to recruit nationally or internationally because you don't have to be in that city to work there but also you have people who like don't know anybody they work with are like just the one supervisor so they can feel disconnected or lonely so I am seeing a number of places that give the option and you know for example I had a client who lived alone in an apartment and so she was one of the first ones volunteering to go back just she missed the in people and then other people are like no way I never want to go back there yeah it's such an interesting I think people have had just such different experiences yeah yeah one of the things that you speak to is this notion of how confidence plays into this the reclamation of being able to show up as who you are and it's interesting because I wonder if a lot of people have a fair amount of confidence that's built around their representative and everyone like everyone around there would be like oh this is most confident person out there right but the notion of then okay what happens if I show up as myself if I'd stop sending my representative and I start sending me like that confidence is vanishes yes absolutely that I know how to win people or please people or charm people and if I wasn't that what I talk about or who would I be this also comes up around substance dependence because I don't go into a whole big speech about like all the health consequences I ask people to tell me about like what they gain and often it is that like is a liquid courage or you know or the the freedom to not care if I am rejected and so the important message around confidence is it doesn't have to be natural and instant you can work at it which means you can build it over time so if some people are to say for example I've been this like fake superficial person and like I'm tired of it I don't really like it I want more depth in my conversations or relationships but I don't know how people will respond right that will feel it you will feel nervous like it's understandable as opposed to like shaming people because you feel nervous about trying something different and the reality is we don't have any guarantees some people aren't going to like it so it's that and some parts do it afraid but knowing over time you'll build the confidence and also you'll build connections based on this evolving self yeah how much of confidence do you think is making peace with the fact that a lot of people will reject you along the way well it is peace and recognizing I no longer need or require their approval so it's that freedom yeah you know it's that freedom of like yeah that's okay it's all right that like I'm artsy or I'm spiritual or any of the things and they don't like that right they think that's weird or they think whatever they think that's fine so they should go with people they like it's funny I'm recalling an experience where I was watching somebody else with there was somebody else who was with me was really watching somebody in a what seemed like a fairly performative mode we're really confident like strong will bold like making you like and convincing and we came out of that experience and talked to the person next man what what you think they're like confident amazing you know like blown away wow so entertained and like so wise and and there was something in me that said I saw a deeply wounded and scared person who was like projecting something so they could hide the curiosity brings up in me is like do you think that we said like if you're really really paying attention that other people sense when a confidence is built upon something that is not real or do you think it's just like we can actually keep on keeping on and accomplish what we want because my sense is like when people really paying attention you start to really see that there's something not right here like you feel it there's something intuitive that's right I think people who are attuned people who are sensitive people who are observant know the difference it feels different like what is this based on and also your experience with let's say someone who's highly wounded or anxious that either I have been there before or I was raised by someone who was like that so I recognize what I'm seeing versus other people either haven't really seen it or didn't know what they were looking at so yeah they it's that whole thing you can fool some of the people some of the time but there are those who can feel the fragility as you described a number of times in the conversation some people will be like oh I like this person some people will be like no actually can you be who you were before and you write about this you know it's this notion of morning loss but it's not necessarily morning loss as in the death of a person or something like this it's like there's so many layers of relationships that we've built in our lives and as we reveal reclaim who we are and then start showing up as that person there's going to be a process of loss and grief and there is sometimes as opposed to the actual relationship which is possible that you're reading but sometimes it's grieving our idea of it our fantasy of it what it could have potentially have been but at the root and truth never really was right and so having to let go of the fantasy yeah you write about what I guess you kind of describe as the transformative power of properly processed grief take me into a little bit more one to grieve is to love or to care it lets me know what I had invested or what I was hoping from this it's a inner truth and then you just try and figure out like what of this am I grieving am I grieving the actual person or am I grieving having someone in that spot because then just like if I'm bored or whatever this is my go-to especially when I have people let's say who are in a friendship circle where they're always the neglected one right so they're like oh we found out the friends went here they went there and they never told me so you can say in some ways like that you're grieving the loss of this friendship and also you're lost the loss of what you hoped this would be because they never really treated you like a someone in the inner group anyway but maybe sometimes you would get invited so you could grieve that right so it requires a kind of a deeper truth what is it that I am missing what is it that I am grieving and you know the invisible losses the unrecognized losses those loss of loved ones but then there's loss of aspects of our self loss of our sense of trust loss of safety loss of income yeah so giving ourselves permission for that because unprocessed unrecognized grief shows up in you know unhealthy patterns yeah I would imagine one of the losses is also just the notion of the loss of the way people used to treat me when I thought when they thought I was this other person and I liked that but now as I'm showing up as myself I'm not going to get that anymore from them so I need to grieve that that's why but then I will get that from people who now actually like the real me as I show up so I need to just like breathe into and give it time that's right it's like outlast it continue on your journey and it's that you know can you hold yourself in the space between and that you know hope or faith and that I talk about therapy is an act of faith that I'm showing up here because I believe a part of me believes things can be better for me so here we are hmm circling back to the beginning of a conversation like fundamentally in the context of us feeling like we've hit a point in our lives wherever you've lost ourselves regardless of what the reason is and somebody's listening into this conversation and they're like yeah all these different things make sense where might somebody start like what's a good starting point for somebody to start to say okay I'm feeling like I've been showing up in a way I've lost myself and I really want it first figure out who I am or reconnect with who I am reclaim that and start showing up as that person in my life because it can tell it's going to feel better even if there's a window where I'm going to have to navigate some loss what's a sort of like a first step in that you find is comfortable and doable for most people to think about let's say three times no matter how long ago they were were in that moment you felt like you right and could have been by yourself you could have been in a group of people you could have been 10 or could have been last year or last night that helps us to know there's that a piece of that still exists in me because that is what I'm going for it may that be that exact activity but that sense of truth right I was I was showing up as my true self or in that moment how would German has that quote I love do the things that make you come alive because far too few of us are actually alive so that can just be your north star or your confirmation that it is possible it is possible for me to be me right and then after those kind of memories then to you know you can look at in what spaces or with what people or doing what activities feel the most like they encourage my truth so I have some friends who let's say either politically or religiously or scientifically you know can feel very narrow to me or very restrictive where I may find myself being more careful in conversation with them and then there are people where it just flows there where you know I wouldn't even think of a mask because that's just how easy it is so I want to maximize my time with people and in places that cultivate that that give me where I feel permission to be me hmm I love that feels a good place for us to come full circle as well so in this container of good life project if I offer up the phrase to live a good life what comes up to live a good life is to embrace and love myself completely imperfections and all hmm thank you you're welcome before you leave if you love this episode safe but you'll also love the conversation we had with Bessel van LeCoke about integrating trauma to find only the Bessel's episode in the show notes this episode of good life project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me Jonathan Fields editing helped by Alejandro Ramirez Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Del for her research on this episode and of course if you haven't already done so please go ahead and follow good life project in your favorite listening app and if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable and chances are you did since you're still listening here would you do me a personal favor a seven second favorite and share it maybe on social or by text or by email even just with one person just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know those you love those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy tell them to listen then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action that's how we all come alive together until next time on Jonathan Fields signing off for good life project