Welcome to this negotiation masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.
With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.
What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries.
Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.
Success doesn't look the same for everyone.
And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.
Let's dive in.
Amarin, thanks for joining us today.
Thank you, Kwame, for inviting me to your show.
Really appreciate it.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Absolutely.
My name is Amri Rambang.
I'm a mechanical engineer by profession and Over the last decade, I have worked in many industries.
I started my career in mining.
I worked in the oil sands of Alberta.
Then I worked in gas utility. gas distribution, and then I made the pivot into telecommunications.
So whenever somebody asks me about career advice, I say hmm, if you're ready for a mosaic or a puzzle, then that's what you're going to get with me, because I have transitioned many times across multiple industries, as an engineer, but also as a people leader later on in my career.
And I've always noticed that BIPOC women or Black Indigenous and women of color, We're fairly rare in STEM and also in the workplace overall, and even less and less visibility as we move on or progress into the first level, leadership and beyond that.
So it really made me think about the challenges faced by visible minority women in the Canadian workplace.
And I became really passionate to promote diversity and inclusion, but also excellence BIPOC, excellence within the workplace.
And so I started my podcast to interview guests women who have already had stellar careers and reached peak career success vice presidents, CEOs from Fortune 500 companies, all the way to not-for-profit organizations as well to talk about their career success and what were some of the barriers and challenges they have overcome reach that success.
You know, that's my journey.
That's my mission really to advance and promote Black Indigenous and women of color in STEM and in leadership.
This is fantastic.
And your work is very important.
And When we were chatting beforehand, you told a story about a family that you ran into in the store.
And I want you to share that story because it shows the importance of the work that you do.
And then we'll move into the episode.
Certainly.
So when I was doing my podcast, I didn't really broadcast it too much to my employer.
I was mostly just promoting on LinkedIn and Instagram and getting...
Tremendously positive responses, not just surprisingly not just from women of color, but even men, because some of the issues we talk about, such as workplace bullying or advancement, these are universal concepts.
And anybody can listen and learn from the challenges that you know women are having.
But also there's takeaways for men as well.
So I have received a lot of great response, but never really within my organization because I didn't really like to talk about it.
But then they found out, and because I used to work at a telecommunication organization, they have to have a community programming TV channel.
You know, by regulation, like the Canadian, like RTRC channel.
Any major telecom organization needs to have community programming as part of their social outreach.
So they decided, hey, why don't we just put you on TV?
You do this podcast.
We might as well do it in video format, kind of like what we're doing right now Kwame, and broadcast it.
So of course I said yes, you know what a great opportunity to just reach my own community and beyond.
And I did that.
And, you know, it was every time I did a podcast show, it was running on the channel.
And one day I was just doing grocery shopping here in my city and I met a mom and her young daughter.
They came up to me and the mother just, you know, chit-chat.
She asked, you know, I think I may have seen you on TV.
And I live in a fairly white majority community, so I think my face is quite recognizable for most people.
And I said, yes, well, yeah, I do have a show.
And she said, yes, you were talking about women advancing in the workplace.
We're talking about how we can study, have a STEM education and contribute towards the Canadian economy, and how diversity is so important in enabling that.
And I said, yeah, yeah, that's, you know, I'm really glad that you watched my show.
Thank you so much. for the time that it took to do that.
And she said, she's there from Somalia.
And the mom says, you know, we came to Canada 10 years ago.
And I understand that for me, it's too late to go back to school or do anything to my career.
I'm just happy with my job.
It puts food on the table and I'm satisfied with my life.
But I made my nine-year-old daughter watch the show because I feel that she can truly have a future here.
This is a new opportunity for her.
And having that role model is so important.
If she could see that there are women who are like her immigrants, first-generation immigrants, women of color, if they are talking about these ideas, talking about promotions, getting into management, getting into the C-suite.
This is good for her because it shows what's possible for us too.
And that really touched me Kwame.
I was a bit emotional at the time to hear that from a mom.
It just really made me feel very blessed that I had that opportunity for my voice or my content to get into homes and families at the ground level.
It was very rewarding for me.
This is great.
And I appreciate you sharing that story too, because it shows not only the impact that you have, but also the passion that you have for it.
And that's critical, you know, because representation matters.
And it's hard to see yourself advancing in a society or a company if you don't see people who look like you somewhere represented there too.
So I think that's very important.
That's part of what I'm doing here with with negotiation as well, because there's not that much representation in this field.
So want to provide opportunities and let people see that it's possible.
And One of the things that I know people in your audience struggle with and I know for me when I've been doing my keynotes and trainings, I see this with just everywhere is the struggle of influence without authority.
We're in a situation. where we might not have rank in this interaction.
We might not have authority.
And the person knows that they could completely ignore our recommendations or suggestions.
And so it's really tough when you find yourself in that position.
How do we persuade?
And so, to start off, I would love for you to kind of set the stage when it comes to influence without authority.
And tell us a bit of what you've seen in your career as a mechanical engineer and also a people leader too.
Absolutely.
So...
I was a big believer, and this is probably coming from a Brown family, work hard.
Your work speaks for itself.
Be the hardest worker in the room, and, you know, the rewards will come.
Okay?
I believe that.
For the longest time.
And I thought, if I do a good job and then I'm presenting my idea to someone, they're just going to see how highly.
You know how high value I am already.
And they're going to listen to me.
Right.
So.
Influence is something that I find that they're like seeds like you sow seeds and it takes time, like gradually they grow.
And I think influence is very similar.
You can't just boom, have influence, like just like that.
It's building credibility through your work, definitely through your actions, but also through how you communicate, how you present yourself.
How do you set and address and demonstrate your vision?
That is so important.
And what I found in my own career as a woman of color influence is hard to come by because oftentimes you don't even have that network.
Your network is your network.
We all know that, right?
And a lot of that gives you that influence.
But what if you don't have it?
How do you even begin to get that influence without authority?
And there's three things that I believe personally that is required to have that influence without authority.
Number one, It is true what they say, be a hard worker and demonstrate your results.
Because, at the end of the day, even though we say that your work doesn't speak for yourself per se, you still have to advocate for yourself.
But you still need those results.
You still need to show people then you are able to get solutions.
You are able to solve problems.
That's number one.
Number two, what I just mentioned a while ago, advocacy.
It's not just enough to work hard and hope that your results will speak for yourself.
You have to self-advocate.
We are our products too.
We need to sell ourselves.
We need to put that idea out there that this is what we're doing.
This is how we're building a product or we're building consensus or we're building a vision.
Whatever it is that you're doing, it needs to be out there.
So that's number two.
And number three, don't put all your eggs in one basket.
And this is what I've noticed.
I'm just going to speak from a corporate perspective.
We always find that, okay, I have to please my manager or just my frontline manager or team lead.
And just impress that person.
We don't realize that we're constantly being watched from all levels of leadership, right?
If you're doing a good job, if you're really trying to promote yourself and advocate yourself, there is some visibility on you.
You can't really rely just on one person to give you those opportunities or that one person to speak well of you, right?
So again, don't put your eggs all in one basket.
Try to network, try to build relationships and really build relationships.
When I say that not just.
You know like let's have a coffee one day and then boom, I'm done right.
Like checkbox, you're on my network now.
No, it's very much an nurturing a relationship.
Build relationships with people from all levels at an organization.
Again, I'm just speaking from a corporate perspective, not just with your direct leader, but their bosses, leaders from other departments, right?
Like you have to be building those relationships and really nurturing them.
Find ways to give value.
Sometimes I feel that as young people, you might feel that, what do I have to tell a director?
What do I have to give this person?
Why would this person invest any time in me?
It might sound odd to young people, but they also have something of value to add.
People who are in positions of power are very much interested in the perspective of the new and upcoming generation, how they're thinking, how the world is working.
What's going on in TikTok?
You know what I mean?
So there's always something that you can teach them and, in turn, receive their wisdom and their you know like the value that they have.
They can definitely share that with you as well.
So those are the three things that I recommend for someone to have influence without authority.
Again, it's not a, you know, It's not a race, you know, it's a marathon.
You build, you build it, you build influence.
I love all of this.
I was sitting here feverishly taking notes, Emery, and this is...
This is really strong.
So let me do a quick recap.
So we have three things.
First, be a hard worker and get results.
Sell yourself, advocate for yourself and help to build that vision.
And then don't put your eggs in one basket.
Just recognize that other people are watching.
You have multiple stakeholders and there's usually multiple ways to achieve victory.
And it's not always through just one singular person.
So building relationships, not just with the person who we might be reporting to, but also people in their vicinity, in their orbit.
And then I'll put this as an added bonus.
Find ways to give value.
This is really, really strong, because I think, first of all, You might not know this, but I'm a child of immigrants too.
And so I got that whole hard work, hard work.
Well, what else should I do, mom and dad?
Well, you should try working harder, Kwame.
I got that.
I'm telling you, it doesn't matter where from the world you are.
Seriously.
Yeah.
And so, but I think we often miss that point.
I was talking to one of my mentees the other day and he was saying hey, I want to be persuasive in this organization.
How do I advocate for positive change in my organization?
And I said, hey, man, listen, your heart is in the right place.
But the best way for you to be persuasive is to get your word. work done.
Be exceptional, because a lot of times, what ends up happening is that people get so focused on creating positive change in their organization that they lose sight of the fact that they have another job to do.
And you're not going to be persuasive with an organization if people are questioning your value.
Hey, hey.
Sounds like you're just here stirring up stuff and not getting your work done.
So why would I ever listen?
Listen to you.
So that foundation of getting results is so critical, but often overlooked.
And then recognizing that you have to build this vision and sell yourself too.
A lot of times we like to think to ourselves, Oh, yeah, I have the facts.
I have the data and everything.
That should be enough.
It's obvious.
And then a lot of times we get surprised that the facts don't work.
What do I do then if they simply disagree?
Well, we have to be able to have those persuasive skills.
And then, just recognizing the fact that Sometimes we have to engage in some coalition building,
Sometimes we need to recruit allies to help us move forward.
And this is not just in the sense of inclusion and belonging, but allies for your vision within the workforce.
Who sees it the way that you do?
Let's bring them to the conversation too.
So I really love the clarity and simplicity, but also the power of this, because it works, but it will take some time.
And I'm glad that you added that part too.
Absolutely.
I mean, it might sound a little cliche if I say this again Kwame, but make a friend before you need a friend.
It's so important to remember.
And I feel that many of us either don't have that awareness until we need it or, You know, it's just too late in the game.
So I think, okay, first of all, let me just be very straight with you.
It costs $0 to be a knife person.
It costs maybe a bit of your time to help someone out, but those two things take you so far.
Because likability, there's real power in likability.
There's real power in being perceived as a genuine, nice, and empathetic person.
And it really doesn't cost much.
It doesn't cost money, maybe a little bit of your time, but it pays dividends in unmeasurable worth and value.
So yeah, just wanted to add those two cents.
This is, first of all, that was way more than two cents.
Do not sell yourselves short here.
This is great.
I've never heard it described this way.
Make a friend before you need a friend.
Because I think we all could think about... friends, or especially family members.
You get a text, you're like, oh boy, what does this person need?
Okay.
What do you want?
What do you want?
So it is so beneficial because it can become really transparent.
Oh, I see this pattern.
Anne-Marie only reaches out when she wants something.
That is not persuasive.
You're starting off the conversation in a way where the person is already resistant.
And then also, you're right.
It costs nothing to be a nice person.
But the reality is it can get you so much value.
And the value can just be a mutual relationship with people who care about each other.
And then down the road, there may be a request that we need to make.
We might need to call in a favor.
Perhaps, but that's not the reason why we're doing it, right?
It has to have that legitimate foundation because we are becoming, as a a society, increasingly more skeptical, because every day somebody is trying to sell us something.
And so we're always defending ourselves.
And so there's a lot of value in having a relationship with somebody where you can feel safe, and then, when you have that safety and you have that trust, it makes the difficult conversation way easier because you have a firm foundation of the relationship.
One thing I've learned Kwame, is people might not remember what you said.
You know not your exact words, but they will Always remember how you made them feel.
And you know I try to be more aware of my words because you know I might say something or it might come off, as you know, me implying something that might hurt someone or rub them the wrong way.
So I think we have to be very careful in how we use our work.
They're very powerful tools.
We can either make or break a connection, make or break a relationship.
So it's very important to be able to visualize that and realize that.
Feelings really are important.
People do a lot of things just by feel.
It's not always logic.
It's not always data.
It's not always trends and analytics and patterns.
A lot of times people make decisions purely based on guts. and purely based on feel.
And, you know, that's just so important to recognize and remember.
Absolutely.
And now with this we've set a really firm foundation for just relationship building in general, but also persuasion.
And so let's say we've done this work.
We've taken the opportunity to make these deposits into the relationship bank account.
We're creating value and helping people And we have a great relationship.
Now we're in a situation where, all right, now this is a tough conversation.
And now I'm approaching my manager, my boss person who holds the cards, who holds all of the power in this interaction.
And they can do whatever they want. but I'm trying to get them to do something specific.
How would you approach that conversation?
So definitely test them at a time where you know that they're not going to be very stressed.
Definitely just be cognizant of what might be going on in their plate first.
You know, because again, it's a lot about emotions, right?
Like, where is your bandwidth?
Do you have the capacity to have this conversation right now where I'm making an ask?
So definitely, you know be aware of that.
But also Again, I would hope that when I'm making that ask of my manager, I have already set a foundation for the ask and it's just not coming out of the blue.
I should be having regular checkpoints or regular touch points about where I'm going towards, what my aspirations are, or maybe I'm trying to do a new project.
What's the vision here and how I'm going to approach it?
So definitely it shouldn't be something that's just off the blue and, you know, off the cuff.
So yeah, definitely build that foundation.
Make sure that you are known to be a reliable person.
You're known to be someone with integrity, because it's just so much easier to get buy-in if people believe In you, but also in your integrity and your honesty.
And, you know, they know that they're going to do what you say.
And it should be worthy of their time to invest in you or it should be, you know.
It should make sense for them to be seen as being aligned with you.
That's something very important.
I think people do think about okay, this person, if I give him or if I give this person my backing, how does that make me look?
Is she or he reliable?
Have they, have they done a good job typically?
Am I going to regret this later on?
So, you know, again, everything takes time, right, Kwame?
Even when I'm making my ask, I should have invested enough in that relationship.
I should have done the work and built that credibility and integrity there.
That just increased my chances of success.
Brilliant.
I love this.
And I love the fact that you focused on the word investment there at the end, because we are talking about investments, not winning lottery tickets and winning a lot in no time time at all with zero effort, right.
Because a lot of times the mistake that we make when we say to ourselves, how do I achieve influence without authority in this conversation?
If you just started thinking about it for that conversation, you've already lost, because you should have been investing in the relationship the entire time, demonstrating that you are aligned in this issue, and they should not be shocked at the fact that you're coming at them with this information or this request, constantly priming them throughout the entirety of the relationship and chipping away at it.
So then it becomes almost obvious.
The majority of the work should have been done days, weeks and months in advance of the actual conversation.
And if you decide to have the conversation and say this is the conversation where I'm going to persuade my manager to change their entire worldview, good luck.
It's going to be very tough to do.
One thing that just occurred to me sometimes even your own manager might not have the authority to give you what you want.
And this is not something that many of us are aware of, right?
Because sometimes, especially in early career jobs, We don't really understand organizational politics or we don't really understand how hierarchies work.
So we might think that, oh, it's all in their hands now, and that's all I need to do.
Again.
The third point putting all your eggs in one basket right, hoping that just your manager is enough to influence something in your favor.
It takes a bit of time and a lot of effort and a lot of just interdepartmental communications to kind of gauge.
Depending on the opportunity, what are you looking for?
It's just not my manager who needs to get the green light.
Who else is there beyond him or above him or her, for them really, who might have some influence or win the decision too?
So you're not, again, putting your eggs in one basket.
You're ready.
You know that you have to convince your manager, but you also know that you might have to, you know, have those elevator pitch conversations with the director that are available.
Just putting it in, right?
Obviously, you'll talk to your manager, but make sure that you're putting those seeds in there too.
So that's just something to be aware of.
That is a crucial thing for us to be aware of as well because essentially, if we don't understand the org chart and we don't understand the limitations of power that our manager might have, we might be asking for the impossible and creating a very strange conversation.
Exactly.
It reflects poorly on you too, because you're saying how well can you understand this situation if you don't even understand how to get it done organizationally?
So it diminishes your credibility.
And so maybe the negotiation isn't for a specific decision to be made.
But maybe the negotiation is for your manager to become an ally with you in this process.
It's coalition building.
Because maybe you by yourself don't have the political capital to get it done.
But they do, or they plus you or somebody else does.
So you recruit them as part in this process.
And I think that's a really strong way to go forward.
Absolutely.
There's usually more than one decision maker.
We might not see it because a lot of conversations are happening to kind of close doors and you know, water cooler chats.
We don't really see it, but they're happening.
And you know, the more well or the more effectively we know conversations, who those stakeholders are and who are those people with the authority.
Our chances of success just increase, right.
So.
Love this.
This is really good.
And one more question Amreen, for the audience, because I know a lot of people are asking what is the name of your podcast and how can they get in touch with?
Thank you so much for giving me a chance to just shamelessly plug in myself.
But yeah, my podcast is called Count Me Too.
You know, I just chose that name because a lot of times Black Indigenous women of colour feel that they're invisible.
We can be hyper visible because, you know, just being, we might be minorities.
You might be the one and only like.
There's been several times where I was not just the only woman, but the only person of color, the only immigrant in an engineering team.
That has happened.
Right.
So there I'm hyper visible but kind of invisible when it comes to really getting advanced mental progression right.
So that's where the, you know, representation matters.
As you said, you can't be it till you see it.
It's very powerful.
And that's why the name count me too, that I also exist and I'm here.
And I deserve this.
So that's how the name came about for me in my head.
We definitely felt that okay, this is a time that we can talk about racial equity and we can talk about inclusion, not just diversity, not just flowery language.
That it's all just let's hold hands of who I am.
No, like actual, real change where we can talk about these difficult conversations, but nonetheless conversations that need to be had.
So that's where my podcast came, with the focus, The experiences and the very real challenges of Black Indigenous, other women of color, not just in Canada, but really I have guests from North America.
It's for really anyone who wants to learn about our experiences, learn about some of the challenges that we face.
You know, being Black, invisible when it matters, but being very visible otherwise.
So that was my vision and that's where my podcast started and, If you'd like to hear it, it streams across all channels where you get your podcasts Apple iTunes Spotify, Anchor.
Well, Anchor has been bought by Spotify now.
But yeah.
If you just Google Count Me Too, you can listen to it on any platforms for streaming.
Love it.
Amarine, thank you so much for joining us.
And listeners, we will put links to Amarine's podcast and her LinkedIn in the description.
Thank you again.
This was exceptional.
Thank you, Kwame.
I really appreciate this.
Thanks.
That was the first part of today's masterclass.
Up.
Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.
Let's keep it rolling.
All right, Jade.
Thanks for joining us.
Hey, thanks for having me, Kwame.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, man, it's great having you.
And it is great to have you in person.
Listeners, it's been probably like two or three years since I've actually done a podcast in person.
So this is crazy.
It's really cool.
So Jade, how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, thanks.
First, I can I can say I've known you from way back when.
So I think we'll start with that.
But, you know, a long way from Ohio State.
So I'm proud to see what you're doing.
And, um, and, and seeing, you know, where you and your family have came, uh, in that time.
So, um, I knew it then I'm glad to see it now.
Appreciate that.
So, uh, Jay Davis, I'm vice president of external affairs, the port of Cleveland.
And uh, I oversee our government affairs communications marketing, energy projects, offshore wind, ESG projects at the Port of Cleveland, and then also our philanthropic giving.
And so that ranges from everything from, you know, small micro grants and things like that to you know, six figure grants that we give to organizations and communities around the Cleveland area that are working to improve quality of life.
Prior to the port, I worked in K Street in DC.
And for those aren't familiar with public policy and government I was a lobbyist in the electric utilities industry.
And then also prior to that, uh during my time where I worked uh in the same atmosphere as Kwame at the Ohio state house and public utilities commission uh, when we were uh both younger and I had much more hair.
And so I um, I have been at the nexus of public policy, business and politics for my entire career and, you know, just recently finished at Harvard Business School.
And I'm an alum there now and focus a little bit more on my leadership and organizational development aspect of my business school journey and sort of.
I feel that it rounded out my career preparation for this point.
As I go into this, you know sort of halftime of the career right now.
Yeah, no, this is great.
This is great.
And so listeners, you can see why I want to have Jade on the podcast.
Just an incredible, um, depth of experience too.
And one thing that you didn't mention I want to make sure you get a shout out too, for the public affairs company that you and your wife have as well, because that entrepreneurial background will inform the way that you negotiate as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Both of us have families with some deep entrepreneurial roots.
And we started Thornton Buckeye Group.
It's my wife's company.
And and literally we started in Washington, D.C.
We were living there 2014 as a way in order to help some of our friends with developing their political strategies and who are, some running for office, some working at companies in which they were tasked with finding out more information.
And it has now morphed into – right now it's the largest –
African-American female owned public affairs firm in Ohio, based in Cleveland.
Clients all over the country.
And, you know, I've seen my wife do a lot of this work.
More full time to me by service senior advisor and help out, especially a lot of energy and political campaign strategy things like that that we may help with with some clients.
And she focuses a lot more on the uh coaching, the uh policy strategy, everything from helping clients do engagements with DEI to help clients join engagements with um, getting white papers and developing public policy managing, you know, lobbyists at the state federal, local level and all those kind of things.
So it's a full service public affairs firm and we're proud of it.
This is great.
This is great.
So I think we have set the stage for your life.
And really what we're going to do is we're going to use your professional career as a case study for success different negotiation and persuasion endeavors.
And so the focus of this episode is going to be on how to get to yes, essentially how to persuade as a leader.
And so, When you think about your approach to leading and managing and moving people from one position to another position with your communication style, what would you say is your ultimate goal in every conversation?
I would say, depending on what role I play within this negotiation, it is to get to yes, especially if I am managing up.
And I'm talking to my CEO and we're trying to figure out what to do.
He may have a different opinion or he or she may have a different opinion.
And I am trying to figure out how do I maintain that my role, autonomy and all those kinds of things, while still making sure that I'm delivering what's needed.
And that's just more of a.
As you get a little bit older and get into your career, you start realizing that ego uh counts a lot less and causes more issues than actual doing and execution and all those kind of things.
And so staying focused on that, on that is critical when I'm managing laterally, or or you know to you know subordinates, is making sure that they're experiencing me as a leader, as a colleague, in a way that leaves them feeling heard, transparent.
And what is needed.
That they have direction that is actual direction and not just task mastering.
That they have, that they feel whole.
From the interaction.
And that.
I could be vulnerable enough to convey what it is that I really need to get done, what the vision really is for this task, and being vulnerable enough to receive things and be able to pivot if needed.
Sometimes you're just wrong and that's just the key, and that's just something that I've seen.
For a lot of people that could be the hardest part of their professional journey of just being told like well, you're not, You're not the smartest.
You don't know everything about all these intricate things.
You're great.
But you know, just like Jordan, you know Jordan won with Pippen and Grant and Rodman and all these other people like that's still my goat.
Uh but uh.
I don't know if our goat gets six rings without having these other great compliments, and around him with people who who are great in their own right.
Um, and I'll, I'll tell you, um, Just being in leadership and things like that.
A lot of this for me was forged and had a boss tell me a long time ago.
I was like, well, how do you know how to do these things?
How do you know how to do these things?
Like, well, because I screwed them up.
And.
And when dealing and working throughout my early career, learning to lead by being willing to be a teammate.
First and foremost, really helped me become to to take the next step, to take the next step in my leadership journey um and, and what i had to realize to you in my own, in my own right, like it was good, it was great, it was, it was, you know i, i had traversed pretty well by my mid thirties and had had, you know, hit all the markers, you know, as far as titles pay, you know autonomy, all these kinds of things.
And I found myself thinking like, okay, What's next?
And if I can't see what's next, why?
And I remember my wife sat me down and was like, well, maybe you're not ready for it.
And you know, You know you married the right person when they can just be brutally honest, but honest to you.
And shout out to Crystal Davis, my wife, 10 years now and next month in August.
So.
But. we had this conversation and I remember sitting there like, okay, okay, okay, babe, I got you.
All right.
I got you.
I'm still thinking like, nah, I'm great.
I'm good at what I do.
I'm good at what I'm thinking.
I'm sitting there thinking this, I'm sitting there thinking this.
And, and, and, She told me, you know, a few months later, we're having the same conversation.
She's like, well, until you realize that what got you here isn't going to get you to the next level.
And I'm like, what are you saying?
Like, well, what got you here was good.
Like, it was great.
But what's going to get you to the next level is development of something else.
And for me, that development was making sure that I could lead and I could be a teammate in a very authentic and vulnerable way.
That allow people to really understand like what my motivations are.
This is great.
This is great.
And there are so many interesting things that you said that I want to dig into.
Let's dig.
The first interesting thing was somebody in the Cleveland area admitting that Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time.
I think that was fascinating.
But that's that's for a different podcast.
I'm of that generation.
You know, you see Blackish and see Andre Johnson's shoe claws.
I have plenty of Jordans in my shoe closet.
And I think a lot of guys, whether we're diehard Cavs fans or not, growing up We all had, we all wanted those Jordans and wanted one of the jerseys and all those kind of things.
Yeah, it's hard to shake.
It's hard.
It's hard to shake.
But I think one of the interesting things that that I loved about this was you talking about the conversation with Crystal, your wife, because one of the things you mentioned before was managing egos.
When you're managing up, when you're talking to the CEO of your company, you have to manage that ego.
But in that conversation, she had to manage your ego and it took time too.
Because she planted the seed in a conversation.
And then a few months later, she revisited that conversation and challenged you again.
And the thing that led to that massive leap in your career was accepting that, being more humble and then recognizing that, even though you are great at what you do, the next iteration of your career is going to be about leadership and the connection that you have with other people and the ability to motivate, inspire and persuade other people.
And so your ability to kind of check your ego in that moment is what led to the growth that allowed you to be a better leader.
You captured it even better than what I just said.
To be honest with you, I think what happens oftentimes in a lot of organizations, a lot of families and things like that, throughout the early part of your career you're very much like.
The Folks that really progress quickly are the doers, are the executors, are the people who get like.
I had a couple areas where I was a subject matter expert and I was able to go and do it.
And I was consistent.
Reliable in those things and allowed me to get other opportunities and to progress.
OK, that's very different from executive leadership to where you're not doing as much, as much as you are facilitating information to whether it be your board or whether it be investors or whether it be um um, other colleagues and the various trade groups and things like that.
And you are, you are, so you're facilitating that kind of communication to them internally and externally.
Within your folks and you're managing processes.
You're managing, you're sitting down every day, probably a couple times a day, dealing with okay, what is this division doing?
Are we hitting our KPIs there?
What is that division doing?
Are we hitting our KPIs there?
Why or why not?
You know, what can we continue to do better?
These are questions you're asking now.
And you still have doers, who are going to be future leaders, who are going to be sitting in that seat someday, who are, who are executing those things and getting those and hitting those KPIs or trying to figure out why they're not, and adjusting and things like that.
What we sometimes Fail to do is that when I had got into leadership position, I was coming out of a doer mind frame.
And so I'm leading as a doer and I'm leading people who are also doers.
And I'm so OK, let's get this done.
Like we got it like. hell of high water.
Let's get this done.
Let's get these things done.
That's how we got to work.
That's how we got to do.
And it's like, well, I'm not quite sure.
I'm not quite clear on that vision.
I'm not quite clear on these things.
I'm not quite clear on that.
And a lot of organizations um And individuals and me included, had a hard time, you know, for about a year and a half or so of my career thinking like well, am I good at this?
Am I right at this?
Am I am I leading us to the right place at the port?
And it was when I realized with the help of of Crystal that, well, your role is different.
It's still about getting to the goal, but your role and getting to that goal is very different now.
And those things you know are the things that really help organizations take that next leap or maintain being a well-oiled machine.
And that's why you know small organizations don't struggle with it as much, because you can see it you get larger and larger.
It becomes harder and harder to spot because you know um success is great.
Everybody wants to be a part of it.
But uh, it was just like.
Uh, I tell kids all the time, like you know, you can look at LeBron James and like I want to be LeBron.
I want to be LeBron.
But are you willing to do those to shoot those 2000 jump shots a day when you're 14, 15?
Are you willing to put in all that kind of work, even now that you don't see, just to just to get to that 48 minutes on the court?
Those kind of things is sometimes those are those are things that are missed that are critical.
So even you can have very talented people very, very good product that never quite reaches its full potential because of, you know, the disconnect between these stages of leadership and the stages and how that changes.
Just like my CEO has a very different role than I do as well.
And if you go and just plop me or one of my other colleagues in the VP level into that seat, if we don't realize that, probably not going to be in that seat long.
But everyone else suffers as well within the organization.
Absolutely.
And I've heard it described as the leadership lid.
Like you cannot, a team cannot Or it's very difficult to outperform the quality of the leader.
And so your team will grow in advance as you as the leader grow in advance.
And one of the things that you mentioned there was you mentioned it a couple of times actually the role, understanding your role and especially understanding the shift where you were before versus where you are now and your role relative to other people.
Because, even though you're going to be authentic through all of your conversations, your approach is going to change based on who it is that you're talking to.
What's your role?
What's their role?
What's the interaction of the role?
So how do you maintain your authenticity in these conversations, even though you might adjust your strategy Based on who it is you're talking to?
One of the main things about maintaining authenticity is just having a real.
Having a real curiosity about who people are.
How they got there.
Where is it that they want to go?
So it's not a single person is going to be on a team that I lead that I'm not going to try to find out like, what is your goal?
What do you want to do?
Um, um.
How did you get to here?
And those things will tell you a lot.
I remember and I do that because young or very early in my career, I appreciated people that did that because it allowed me to ask questions and get feedback about things I didn't even know to ask about.
Yeah.
And it allowed me very simple things.
Like when I first started working at the state house, I thought I was going to be involved in more like just purely urban affairs issues.
And when I started talking to Um uh, folks that were in the caucus and doing policy work, they were like well, you know, what is it that you, what's your background and things like that.
Have you thought about um, energy and tech and you know, sort of forward looking things like that that could really help deal with some of those urban issues in which you was thinking of, which I was thinking about which jobs and availability and quality of life and all these kind of things?
And it allowed me to think like oh, I can affect those things, maybe from a place where I'm more interested in From a broader perspective.
By pivoting to that, it ended up providing me with a career path.
That has been great for me and has been joyful for me because I had a clear vision.
Dedicated interest in trade and shipping and energy and utilities and all these kind of things that I work with on a daily basis now.
And, and so one thing I'm trying to do is make sure that, if I'm, if I'm dealing with, if I'm talking with folks on my team, where is it that you've been?
Where is it that you want to go?
And with that, you can understand where people, you know, you use that simple questions.
It's just asking the question sometimes, like you know where do you feel you could be best utilized?
What's the thing that gives you the best joy?
And some of that is whether it's a consultant position or that's external, or that's working with you, or internal employee.
Sometimes you can develop your best talent within the organization in other places right under you.
But I say hey okay, if you really want to go to law school, I really want you to sit down with our legal counsel and begin to map out what that looks like.
And when we're doing policy papers, I really want you to focus in on, you know, What do you think?
What do you think we may have issues that in regulation or illegal and things like that?
And then be that liaison and you gain loyalty, you gain respect.
But you also gain a sort of ease of working within the organization where people are OK now to admit like OK, you know what?
I may have not delivered on that.
I may have been wrong.
This is good.
This is good.
So let's go back to early in your career when you were utilizing that curiosity yourself.
Because what you're finding and you correct me if I'm wrong on this Jade you're finding that, even though you had a very clear goal perspective on what your value add would be focusing on urban affairs,
When you started to have those conversations with other people, you started to realize that you could still fulfill your life's goal, your mission and all of those things, while still being interested in in the trades and energy and those types of things, right.
And so you were able to make a minor tweak, but still it was in alignment with your overall goal, right?
To be honest with you, early on in career, not even early on career, throughout life you only know what you know.
You only know what you've been exposed to.
You only know what is relative to your experience.
And so for a lot of folks, When you're especially if you're like me you're, you know you're a first generation college student you're, you're.
You get out of college, you work a little bit, go to grad school, you get okay.
Now I got this job.
I am like an adult now.
And it's like, okay.
I know these things.
I'm going to go do these things.
And it's like, well, have you ever thought about this?
Have you ever thought about that?
And part is from because I had leaders who were willing to have those conversations with me and I was able to produce very good work and have very good relationships that I still have now.
But the key is I didn't even know that's what I needed until it was given to me.
And I don't know if my experience would have been as fruitful for me or an organization or them if I wasn't, if they weren't those kind of leaders.
And so I admit that being as fortunate of having that.
But What I try to do is make sure people feel fortunate for having the opportunity to engage with me on that level.
Now, again, I'm not saying that I'm the leadership guru and I'm not you, Kwame.
I'm not going to write a book about it.
I'm not I don't see myself at that level yet.
But what I do see is that I know that firsthand being able to provide people space to grow.
It's just critical.
It's critical.
And that's where you see it now, in job markets where people don't feel like they have a space to grow.
You know, and I hear some folks like, well, people don't want to work hard.
They don't want to do this.
They don't want to do that.
Well, you know. everything has to adapt.
And you can't adapt until you're actually sitting down and figuring out what are you adapting to.
And that's something that I'm trying to make sure I continue to do, whether it's entrepreneurially, whether it's professionally, within our organization.
Yeah, no, this is good.
This is good because it kind of goes back to what you said about vulnerability too, because for everybody in the conversation there's a benefit to vulnerability.
Because if you're vulnerable now, you're feeling safe enough and trust the other person enough to actually share forthrightly the information that people need to solve problems.
And so it takes a strong relationship with the people on your team for them to be vulnerable enough to share that information with you, especially if you're their leader.
But oftentimes we as leaders have to set the stage by being vulnerable.
Like you said, admitting sometimes when we're wrong, sharing our goals and our vision very clearly so they can see where they fit into it.
And then also with the example that you gave about the person who wants to go to law school, for example, you're saying okay see, I was thinking about putting you in this direction, but that doesn't serve you and your ultimate goal.
You can still help us and our organization by doing this, which helps you, because it helps you to gain those legal skills that you'll need when you go to law school.
And it helps us because we need researchers to do this research, right?
And so you're getting to yes, like we talked about, but you're open and willing to be flexible and work collaboratively with the people on your team through these difficult conversations.
And it starts with that vulnerability.
Yeah.
And it's one thing that I wish I would have developed very early on in the career.
Heck, even in college, of just having to be in a vulnerability.
You know go back to the early aughts.
You know I show up to college full blue shirt, fake Cuban link chain, all this kind of stuff you know.
You know hey, and people can laugh about it, but I know if we go pull out those college IDs from the early, early 2000s, it'd be the same thing for many of you folks.
But I didn't think.
There was a space and a place for that, for just asking these questions.
So I met the school people from all around the world on the football team playing with guys from all over the country.
Very few times my first two, three years I just sit down and ask me like so you know what is your family?
What are you looking to do?
Like, what do you what do you why are you majoring in this or why are you majoring in that?
And so one thing that I'm talking with my nieces and nephews about I always have it's like Hey, continue to network, but don't just network just to get to know folks.
Like get to know who they are, uh, and all those kinds of things.
And I think that uh, that is something you have to sort of learn, because I'm not quite sure that it's.
That's something you may have to unlearn of not connecting with people, because I'm not quite sure that's something that's being taught.
It's not going to be taught in school to connect with people on that kind of level.
And for a lot of families, us included as parents.
You're trying to make sure your kids are very set on being the best versions of them, and connecting with other folks on a deeper level is very much not a top-tier issue when you're raising them.
Um, that's something I think that the connection piece is just critical.
And I'm not saying you know, sit down and tell folks you know your darkest, deepest secrets, or nothing like that.
What I am saying is that.
Being open to having a conversation about the person that wants to pivot law school, being open to a conversation of persons like you know, this is just not.
This is I will I see myself in your position one day.
How do I get there?
And don't take it as a threat, but take it as OK.
This is opportunity to develop the next wave of leadership.
And I'm a firm believer that.
The more people you develop and the more people that you help along the way.
It can be very, very beneficial to you in your journey as well, the more allies you have.
Because that person may not take your position at your organization, but they may go take a similar position at another organization, which then you can partner up with or you can leave and go to and, you know, have all these kind of things, all kind of different aspects of that.
And so I think it's just keeping the connection and being open to the connections.
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
And being open, it's much easier said than done.
And like you said, you have to unlearn that previous experience.
I would say a lot of times it's self-preservation because we see the risk of sharing.
I heard one of my previous podcast guests, Austin Hill.
He described trust and vulnerability really interestingly.
He said with when you're being vulnerable with somebody, you are giving them the keys to your own destruction and hoping they don't destroy you.
I mean, when you think about that level of gravity, that's pretty significant.
And, like you said, you're not always sharing your deepest, darkest secrets.
But you do recognize, like hey, if I open myself up, there is some kind of danger if they take it the wrong way.
But you have to take those small incremental risks.
And I think about them almost like relationship tests.
Can I trust you with this? test.
I can trust you with a little bit more.
And then as you keep on doing that, you deepen the relationship.
And then those difficult conversations that we talk about all the time on the podcast become a whole lot easier because people are sharing information and genuinely working together to try to solve the problem, make things better.
And I think and when you talk about vulnerability, I mean, some of it is just.
It's just being honest with folks that I don't have the answers here.
I don't know.
This is sort of outside of my.
Previous experience.
I may have to go back and do some more reading.
There's all these kind of things that are going on within the everyday of a project.
I just had a critical conversation with my CEO last week about uh some things that we we had to get done, uh some decisions we had to make as organization.
And um, he was very honest to say Hey, I don't know like I need you to figure this out for me and help me.
You know, get to this.
I got to trust you in this.
And those are kind of things.
You're right.
Yeah, it's giving them the keys and things like that.
But we've been working together now for six years.
And I'm quite sure it would have been six months if he felt that he could not come to me and have that kind of conversation.
And get an answer that is going to be fact based, that is going to be rooted in truth and, you know, fit within the fit within the goals of the organization, the great organization.
Those are all things that I think are necessary, though, because you just can't do it alone.
As good as we think we are, you just can't do it alone.
And I don't want to take NBA analogies to, you know.
Real life, but oftentimes you look at all these like championship dynasties and things like that.
You know, I'm not the LBJ hater that some folks are.
I think LeBron James is going to go down in the day as one of the, you know, greatest all time.
He's a top five player.
No, no, no doubt.
Hands down all time.
But people say, well, he needed so much help.
He needed so much help.
And I'm looking around like go through all these dynasties, go back to the 40s and 50s, like Hall of Famers galore on all these teams that won three, four or five, you know six titles.
These weren't just, you know, sworn YMCA guys that were out there with one star.
This is not how it works.
And so if you have a great organization. a great product, all these kind of things.
There's probably a lot of stars.
There's probably a lot of people that could be CEO.
You know, a lot of people.
There's a lot of people that can be VP.
There's probably a lot of people that can be a senior director director uh manager uh, all the way down to greeting at the front door.
Uh, there's probably a lot of people that can do those things within that that organization, but the organization someplace worth being.
Uh, That's what you need.
A lot of people that are willing that can't step up if need be.
Exactly.
And to that point too, even if you could do it all by yourself, you wouldn't want to be exhausting and unpleasant.
Would you enjoy it?
Would you would you have enough?
Would you have enough left to enjoy it, to see it?
Those are all kind of things.
You know, I think those things are look at the Apple journey, look at the Microsoft journey.
I mean, the talented, bright people.
Were involved with all of this, from you know, for years and decades, and not everybody was, you know.
You know Steve Jobs or you know Bill Gates, but there was a lot of people who could have been, who were involved with this, and some of them left and went and did other great things.
Some of them stayed and did great things.
Some of them went and did low key things that were critical um um, You know, when you start talking about other algorithms or other smaller companies and tech companies and things like that, I think there's, there's a lot of things that we see.
We had, you know, some senior folks leave over the last few years who have went out and done great things at our organization.
We Thornton Buckeye Group is constantly working with people who are looking to expand and right size their profile within the public policy sphere.
To do great things is not just one way to do is not just one person doing it.
And again, it all gets down to being willing to have that conversation, being willing to listen and being open to you know what's possible.
Yeah, it's hard.
Sometimes we want to know.
I know it.
I know what I can do it.
Trust me, I know.
And but it's almost always not the way to do it.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well, Jay.
Really appreciate it, man.
This is really great.
I feel like I could just keep on going.
And I know that because we talked for like an hour before we started.
Yeah, definitely.
But before we go, can you let the listeners know again about where you are now, your public relations company and how they can get in touch?
Thornton Buckeye Group, you can check out thorntonbuckeyegroup.com.
So that's T-H-O-R-N-T-O-N.com.
Buckeye B-U-C-K-E-Y-E group G-R-O-U-P dot com.
Or you can email C. Davis letter C-D-A-V-I-S Davis at Thornton Buckeye group dot com.
And so it's, you know, I'm really proud of my wife.
My wife is a dynamic professional in her own right, vice president of Lions for Great Lakes.
She really is the one driving Thornton Buckeye Group from the day to day with a couple of our key staff and consultants.
And to see her as a.
African-American woman, a young woman take on this and with such vigor.
And, you know, it's been it's been great to see.
I'm just glad I'm glad I can be able to help.
I'm glad I can be able to step in and.
You know, 10 years ago, we said I do.
So it's been great.
And, you know, check it out for your public affairs needs, Thornton Buckeye Group.
Love it.
Yeah, man.
I tell you one thing I respect.
You've always been incredibly good at getting...
All-stars on your team, and Crystal's a great example.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So this is great, man.
Really appreciate it.
I want to go to the top, man.
I want to go to the top.
That's right.
Appreciate it, brother.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.
You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.
Let's dive in.
Jay, thanks for joining us today, my friend.
Hello.
Good to see you, Kwame.
It's so hard to sit down and record a podcast and not just immediately dive into all the things of being a creator off the bat but excited to be here.
Yes, we're excited to have you.
So how can you get us started by telling us about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, I'm a creator and You could say I'm a podcaster.
You could say I'm a writer.
You could say I'm a course creator.
I'm all of those things.
But my content is a little meta because I am studying the best creators and in the world in trying to synthesize and contextualize what they do well, what's working for them today that other up and coming creators can apply to their own businesses.
And I do that on a variety of platforms, but that's it in a nutshell.
That's awesome.
Okay.
And listeners, you're seeing a pattern here.
A lot of my friends are very humble, so I have to throw them some alley-oops.
So Jay, can you please tell them about your community, your podcast LinkedIn Learning, all those cool things?
Okay, sure, sure.
Let me remove the humble hat.
So the podcast is called Creative Elements.
It's got over a million downloads.
I've been talking to some incredible creators, including you James Clear, Tim Urban, Cody Sanchez, Tori Dunlap.
The newsletter has been in flight since 2017.
Um and that has 14000 subscribers or so, launched a membership community this year for people who are trying to become professional creators.
And we have a hundred members in there and it's all been really, really good.
Just launched our YouTube channel for the podcast this week.
Um seven courses for LinkedIn Learning, as you shared and, I think, five or so courses independently.
So I've made a lot of stuff, Kwame.
Dare I say you've created a lot of things.
This is really great.
Yeah.
And I think this does a good job of laying the foundation of really what it means to be a creator.
Because yes, you are an entrepreneur, but it's a specific type of entrepreneurship that you are engaged in.
And so when you think about how you would define a creator, how what was that?
What would that definition look like to you?
Generally, the term these days is used to define somebody whose product is mostly digital in nature, probably tied to information and knowledge transfer.
Another way of saying like courses or workshops or even books and things like that or blogs.
So Creator uses digital mediums to create digital products, and what they create, in my opinion, is for the benefit of both the consumer and the creator.
Both of them benefit and capture value from that exchange so that the creator can continue to financially afford to create.
And the consumer gets closer to whatever goal they're trying to get towards.
Love it.
Awesome definition.
Awesome definition.
So listeners, on this episode, Jay is going to talk about some of the persuasive endeavors he has as a creator and an entrepreneur.
And so we're going to talk about some of the difficult conversations he has to have, some of the cool negotiations with different brands and sponsors he has, how he persuades people to follow him and trust him as he builds his ever-growing tribe.
And then hopefully we still have time.
And this is something I want to explore because I know I've had these before difficult conversations with your significant other around the business, because those are always fascinating, but they're all, they're critical.
They are critical and often overlooked.
So I'm really excited to get some of the um the gems of wisdom you have, that you've gleaned on this journey.
So let's start with the basics, because if you're a creator and nobody consumes what you create, then are you really a creator.
It's like if a tree falls in the woods.
Right.
Yeah.
And so we have to talk about that.
And that's kind of why I preface with a definition of both sides of the equation are capturing value, because there is artistry, something that you create and isn't necessarily generating a financial return for you.
And probably you aren't trying to create a financial return if you're approaching it as a pure artist.
But yeah, the creators that I talk to, like they understand that this is a transaction in a way.
It's a transfer of information.
It's a transfer of trust in order to build a relationship and eventually lead to.
Whatever your pathway of monetizing that attention is
You have to find a way to align incentives with your audience so that the way that you monetize attention is serving them, so that you can be served essentially.
I love that.
And let's focus on this.
You want to align incentives to monetize attention.
And I love this because we're in an attention economy and it's really exciting for people who aspire to be creators, because there's more opportunity now than ever before in this space.
And at the same time, there's more competition now than ever before.
And so there are going to be times, not only as creators, but just as individuals, where we're, when we're trying to stand out, when we're trying to get positive attention and demonstrate that we are people of value and we have something to bring to the table.
When you think about how you're able to persuade an audience and build trust with an audience.
What does that process look like for you?
It looks like communicating with that audience on a one to one level many, many times over you know, and doing that for a period of time.
When you are a creator, you are building one to one relationships with people who are consuming your content.
I don't love the word consume, but we don't have a great, we don't have a better word, so we're gonna use that to understand the same concepts here.
But you're building a one to one relationship.
When somebody receives an email from you, they aren't receiving that email alongside a bunch of other people in their inbox is a very personal thing.
You're in their inbox or you're in their feed.
They are receiving that message from you directly one-to-one.
And the relationship you create by doing that is what eventually allows you to build a career and a profession out of being a creator.
You have to come through in those one-to-one moments and deliver value and create trust and make that person interested in continuing to hear from you, because it's very easy to stop hearing from anybody that we don't want to hear from, whether you block them, you mute them, you report their emails as spam, whatever you want to do.
People have control over the messages they receive.
And you want to be one of those chosen messages.
And that comes from a one-to-one connection and creators are doing that at scale.
This is, this is really great.
And I think a lot of people might find this shocking, right?
Because what, because of what you said at the end, at scale, right?
So from the outside, looking in, it looks like the creator is talking to a massive audience and they are.
But I think what you've done very skillfully is demonstrated one of your differentiators, why you were one of the few that was able to break through the noise.
And it's because you don't think about it as though you're talking to the masses, even though you are.
You think about it as though you're talking one-to-one.
So How do you do that?
You know this is, this is hard advice to give because until you've gotten a bunch of practice it doesn't really make sense.
But it actually comes from trying less, I think.
Because it's an unnatural thing to create some message, some digital artifact that you know is going to be consumed by multiple people.
And do that in a way that feels personal.
But the way you do it is just by imagining that you're talking to a friend or writing to a friend or recording something for a friend, because we feel that we feel that connection that comes through.
Um, we were talking before we got on this.
He said, this is a nice camera.
Is this a DSLR?
I am currently staring into a massive lens.
That is so weird, but I have to imagine that I'm talking to Kwame.
You know, like I, I can't imagine talking to a camera.
I have to.
This again comes through practice.
Know that I'm talking to Kwame and I'm talking to the person on the other side of this.
And when I was doing courses for LinkedIn Learning.
You've done several yourself, you know one of the most impactful directions I got from the team was When writing my scripts.
They say hey, in your intro you're friend J, In the middle of this you're teacher J.
But your intro the hook you're friend J.
How would you write this if you were sitting at a coffee table across from somebody else?
There's a friend who asked you this question.
How would you lead into this conversation?
That really helped me unlock how to write in my voice.
And the other thing is I got to say, doing a podcast is kind of a hack for this, but you don't have to do a podcast to have this benefit.
When you write something, If you take the time to read it out loud, it becomes very clear quickly.
If that sounds like you,
If you would use those words in conversation.
There's this we often will go to like flowery language when we start writing something to you know the abyss, or like the masses we default to like.
Well, what did we learn in English class?
And we think, Bigger words are good.
Long sentences like we get this flowery literature like language.
And really, when we communicate day to day, we communicate it like a fifth grade level.
And when you're a creator and you're trying to relate to people one to one at scale, You need to be communicating at like a fifth grade level.
It's not to say you talk to them like they are fifth graders.
It's to say short words, easy to understand words that are in most people's vocabulary.
That's good.
Short sentences.
That's good.
Transitional words like and, but, or.
Those are good.
And that's not what we were taught in higher ed.
But those types of things you learn with practice and makes it seem like you're a more approachable one to one person in their lives.
This is great.
And I love kind of taking a bit of a psychological I should say a philosophical bend to this, because you started off with an interesting approach which is try less right.
And it reminds me of Taoism, when you think about wu-wei, like doing less, right?
The being in flow.
And when you're having a great conversation with somebody, time just goes past.
You're just flowing.
You're just in the moment completely with the person.
And really, it sounds like that's what you're trying to do with your messaging.
But that's really hard to do for a hey listen.
We learned how to write in school as if we went to college.
They told us bigger words are better, things like that.
And I think, honestly, of course, I...
I am very appreciative of my legal career and the degrees I have and everything.
But when I was starting off as a creator, one of the biggest challenges was unlearning how to communicate like a lawyer.
If you listen to my earlier episodes, there's a lot of big words, random Latin thrown in.
Why am I speaking Latin?
Because that's how lawyers talk, right?
And so simplifying the language to make it more approachable has been really helpful.
But it takes a lot of humility because go even beyond the skill set of communicating one to one at scale to even be willing to do what it takes to create a one on one relationship that has trust at scale.
It takes a lot of humility.
So for you, how did you get the mindset that you needed in order to be willing to do what it took to communicate this way?
Well, in the beginning I wasn't trying to be a creator, because I didn't even know what that really was.
What I was trying to do was get over this narrative that I had, which was that I was not a creative person.
Like I had this time in 2017 January of 2017 to be exact when I was feeling very stuck and blocked.
And um.
In the book the artist's way by Julie Cameron, she talks about this concept of a shadow artist.
Everyone has a shadow artist.
And it says part of you that, if you allowed it, uh just wants to play and make things, and your shadow artists may be following around like painters and things.
I was starting to follow creators and writers in my mind.
And you can.
If you're listening to this and you're kind of like understanding this itch, that you feel this like discontentment with the way you're spending your time and feeling like you're not doing things fun and creative and you want to be.
That's your shadow artist talking to you, I think, and you can kind of uncover the flavor of your shadow artist and by looking at your social media feeds.
You've already chosen to follow certain people who are on those feeds and they are creators and you're following them for a reason.
Whether it's I like their personality, I like their vibe, I like that they're pursuing this lifestyle.
Some of my friends, They follow exclusively people who are doing tiny homes.
Some of my friends are following exclusively people who are building YouTube channels.
It's different types of desires and things they want to do, but we often cling to people that are doing the things that we have an innate desire, maybe even unspoken, un-understood desire, to do.
And I was in that phase.
And I wasn't trying to be a creator.
I was just trying to stop feeling that nagging itch that was making me uncomfortable because I wasn't exploring something.
And my means of doing that was to begin writing every day, because I told myself writing is a creative act.
If I can prove to myself that I can write something every day, that's proving to myself that I am creative and I can be creative.
And that's just how it started.
And I only wrote publicly as a form of accountability.
And then the people that were following along kind of demanded more of my writing.
So I kept doing it.
And then more people started subscribing.
And then I started to get more intentional about it, because I saw the business model frankly, and the opportunity of what being a digital content creator could be.
This is a great opportunity for us to transition to, because we're seeing your origin story, where you had this creative nature inside of you.
You wanted to find an outlet for it.
And then you started doing it publicly, and then you started to find your audience in that way.
And so now you've gotten to that point where you're starting to build that following.
And now we are going to enter a phase where a lot of creators struggle.
And that's transitioning into monetization strategy.
And so now I am.
You know we already have a lunch date on the books to talk business nerd stuff, right?
So business strategy, that's something typically outside the bounds of this podcast.
But let's just hypothetically, let's assume some of the most difficult things.
Let's assume you have a product that is valuable.
Okay.
And let's assume that you have a solid business strategy behind you.
Okay.
You still have to make that transition where people trust you enough to part with their hard earned money.
And so, as you were making that transition, how did you communicate that value?
So they felt comfortable paying you what you were worth for the value you can provide.
Well, look, there are a couple ways that you can... build a business in this world.
There's audience first and then sell something to them after you've kind of collected people who are excited to hear from you.
Or there's create a product and then go try to collect a group of people who would be a good fit for that product.
A lot of people do that ladder path and that's a lot harder because uh, you're already starting all of those relationships with an agenda.
Frankly, because you're like, I have this product and frankly, I'm trying to get in front of you because I want to sell it.
A lot of creators that I know, myself included.
We started creating because we like to create, and then the thing that we sold came later as a function of well, what are the people that are following along?
What do they need?
What do they want?
And so it's a lot easier in that world because you've already spent some time building up trust and goodwill frankly with these people.
And you know if you did your you know due diligence, the thing that you made or are making is something they're going to want, because you probably sourced that idea and that problem from the people you're already writing to.
So that's an alignment of incentives.
You know where it's like you don't have to push something on somebody who wants it.
You know, the example is like somebody in the desert.
You know how much would they pay for a bottle of water.
And, uh, they might, let's also assume that the person in the desert has money.
You know, and they're like hey, I would happily pay some amount of money for this bottle of water because my need is so high and I trust that this is going to solve that need.
Me giving away some of the cash in my wallet is a worthwhile trade.
In fact, that's why I made it to begin with.
If you have that type of dynamic with your audience, that's really good.
There's a lot of horror stories or bad bad blood with the idea of sales.
Because I think when we're kids, we're only introduced to the idea of sales and the experience of sales when it's so remarkably bad that we have to talk about it.
You know? but like we're constantly buying things.
People are constantly selling things to us and we don't say man, I am so glad that McDonald's sold me that hamburger today.
Yeah, that was a good sale.
You know, like we don't talk about the, the things.
Whatever it is that we bought, that we were happy to buy, that we were satisfied with our purchase and would do again.
We don't think of that as sales.
We just think of that as part of our day to day existence.
And the reason that we have money and make money, to begin with because we have things that we want and that gets us those things that we want.
You want to be the salesman that is selling things that don't even feel like you're selling things.
It's just like the obvious, clear next step or the thing that people want and they're happy to trade money for.
It doesn't feel like they're being sold to.
Yeah.
And this is good, because you brought up something that's really important, which is the reluctance to make the request.
And so this is something that we see all the time in our work, too.
So you put yourself in a good position and then essentially you kind of flirt with the idea of working together and hope that they say Jay, I choose you right.
And so at some point you have to make the request.
You have to be comfortable enough making that request.
And I know, in your incredibly robust membership platform that you've created.
I'm sure there are people who have struggled with that making the request.
And so for those people out there who are struggling, with asking for what they want.
What advice do you have for them?
Man, this is such a good topic of conversation.
There's so much we could explore here.
You know, we have like infinite choice. for just about anything that we want.
And I think for the average person that makes us afraid to pull the trigger on making a decision at all, because we're afraid we're gonna make the wrong decision.
So we often will just postpone making any decision until There is like a hard driver forcing us to make a decision almost, or like some sort of inflection point that's really inviting us to yes or no.
You know, because we will postpone almost indefinitely if given the opportunity.
So if you don't. make the ask, people aren't going to make any move at all.
Like they need some sort of deadline, they need some sort of forcing function to make a decision.
And when we're making decisions, we want to be confident that we're making the right decisions.
Before I was a creator, I was a freelancer and I still do some consulting from time to time.
And what I learned was people were much more likely to say yes and work with me if I was confident that I was going to be able to deliver for them.
Like they were looking to me to lead the conversation.
And if I was leading the conversation and I was making it very clear that I understood their problem and I could get them to the solution that they wanted, I can confidently say that
That put their mind at ease.
It made it feel like, yeah, I'm making a good decision here.
But a lot of. people will put the ball in the court of the decision maker.
And there's going to take that ball and run circles around the court and trying to avoid you.
You know, like they just, they just don't want to make a decision.
So you have to, you have to make the ask to force uh things.
And the last thing i'll say is, when you walk into a starbucks coffee um, you're also asked to make a decision.
But you know they have on their board.
Here's what's available, here's the price for it.
Uh, I don't know why we don't think about that more as service providers.
And if not like the actual presentation of that, the experience of that, because the more that somebody says hey, this is what I want.
And you can repeat back and say, it sounds like you want this.
Is that true?
And they say, yes.
And you say, here's the price.
And you say that, Just matter of factly, this is business.
This is not personal.
You want this.
I can provide it.
Here's the price for that.
It feels less like there's less panic to say, are they trying to screw me over?
Am I getting the best deal possible?
Do I have to negotiate out of this?
When you know your value and you know the price for this thing, and especially once you start getting some precedent of other people paying that price, the more you remove any personal feelings from it and just say this is what the price is, the more quickly
In my experience, people say yes or no.
And it's usually yes.
And if it's no, it's a quick no.
And even the no's are usually like the start of something like, ah, can you?
And sometimes my answer is yes, I can.
Or here's how we can.
And sometimes the answer is no.
Take it or leave it.
Yeah.
Oh, this is good.
And so one of the things that you mentioned that I really want to dig into, that again often overlooked, but very, very sometimes could be the deciding factor is how you make the request.
And so.
You could say, here's the price, very matter-of-factly, like you described.
Or you could say, well, I know it's a little bit expensive, but here's... Okay, cool.
So they're going to say no.
Yes.
Yes.
Like how you make that ask is really important.
Can you go a bit deeper into that?
Yeah, it is really important because, again, they're looking for confidence.
Like, if you feel and are exuding confidence and calmness that you can deliver for them, then they're going to feel that and they're more likely to say yes.
If they don't feel that, they're way more likely to say no.
Now the other thing that I've worked on with a lot of people.
That's very helpful.
If someone's coming to you with a need, they probably also have a timeline.
And if it's not like completely clearly stated, they have a good idea of it.
And the trouble that a lot of freelancers have is they will send a proposal, just never hear from that person again.
And it's uncomfortable to follow up but you have to do it.
But it's easy when you follow up to feel like all right now I am the jerk, just like bugging this person.
And a lot of freelancers who are often creatives, who are often empaths, struggle with that.
The important thing that I tell them is, when you're talking to this person and you're getting a sense of their needs and what they're trying to achieve and why they might buy something for you from you or hire you, you need to understand their timeline.
You just say, okay, sounds like you want this.
When do you want that to be done or delivered to you?
Get some sort of tangible date so that when they say that, you can say okay, I can totally deliver that for you.
Here's when we need to get started so that I can make sure we stick to that timeline.
And now, when you follow up, all of your follow up can be in the interests of that person to say hey, haven't heard from you.
You mentioned that you wanted to have this done by date.
We can still do that. but I need to get started by this earlier date.
So let me know if you would like to move forward, because I need to know by this date for us to hit your original timeline.
It's not pestering, it's saying, I heard you.
I know what I can deliver and I know I can deliver it on your timeline.
But for that to be true, Ball's in your court and you need to make a decision.
And that's the way that I think you can really make the ask and get a response.
Yeah, I love this.
And Jay, one of the things that you mentioned was your confidence and confidence.
The fact that people can sense that, and really what i'm realizing is that it could be helpful to think about it in this way.
Yes, we're going to be selling our products or services, or just day to day, we're going to be selling our ideas, trying to get buy in.
But we're not just selling products or services or ideas, we're also selling confidence.
So we're selling the confidence they have in ourselves.
So if I'm making a request, They need to see me as a confident person.
So, for instance, if I'm trying to get a negotiation training from the American Negotiation Institute and Kwame doesn't seem to be very confident in his negotiation skills or his curriculum, I'm not going to sell very many Jay.
That's not going to be very successful, then you have to be able to deliver with confidence, but not cross the line into arrogance.
And in your opinion, what is that distinction between confidence and arrogance?
You don't want to make the client feel like a dummy.
And when you're arrogant, you're putting on this air of contempt.
Which is to say, I am here and you are slightly below me here.
And I can't believe that you don't see this.
This is so obvious.
When you create this invisible hierarchy with whoever the person is that you're talking to.
That is crazy, going from confident to arrogant.
You've removed this level playing field.
Here we can collaborate and partner together on this and try to turn it into this better than you.
You need me type of thing which people are going to naturally both dislike and probably rebel against.
Yep.
Well said.
And when you think about the concept of reciprocity I give you something, you give me something in return
You feel a little bit of psychological debt to repay that whatever it happens to be, right?
The opposite, in my opinion, of reciprocity is vengeance, right?
Oh, you gave me something bad.
I'm going to give you something bad in return.
And really, when we put ourselves in a position where we're coming off as arrogant we're, we get that negative reciprocity called revenge.
Oh, you think you're better than me.
Now, in this interaction, in order to reclaim my self-respect, I'm gonna take it from you and show that we are equals or, in fact, I'm better than you.
And now we have what could be described as an ego measuring competition.
Where the conversation spirals out of control.
So I think it's really important to understand that distinction.
And, very importantly, we have to be humble enough to receive that feedback from other people, because we might be coming off as arrogant and not realizing that.
So being humble enough to receive that and make adjustments is really important too.
I'll also say in any of these conversations I try to say as little as required because it's not about me.
It's about this person.
You know what they want?
They want to take their money as an input.
Put it in your pocket and have the outcome magically appear.
Now, that won't happen exactly like magic, but it should feel as close to magic as possible and you're gonna have no problem getting clients because they don't want to pay you a bunch of money and then also have to do a bunch of work and have all this communication and all this back and forth.
That's unpleasant.
They're probably going to communicate with you throughout this entire transaction.
So if you're coming across as arrogant, that sounds like a horrible time.
They don't want to do that.
It doesn't sound magic at all.
If you are very pleasant and you're making this about them and what they're trying to achieve and uh, For them the input is here's some money, here's the straightest line.
We can do the minimum inputs that I need from you to get this done in the fastest amount of time and achieve the result that you want.
That's the type of transaction people want to enter into and are excited to enter into.
I love this.
I love this.
Jay, there is so much for us to talk about.
And I think, you know, this just means we have to have you back on, my friend.
So that's what a pleasant accident there too.
So we have a lot more to talk about, but before you go, remind the listeners again about your podcast, your courses and how they can get in touch.
Yeah.
If you're a podcast listener, which obviously you are, check out Creative Elements here in your player.
I talk to incredible people.
Go all the way back to episode number 23 and listen to Kwame, who was amazing.
And you can find me online by searching my name.
I'm hard to avoid.
Twitter is where I'm most active.
And that's just at jclass.
Awesome.
Jay, really appreciate it.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me, man.
